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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:52 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I have not stepped foot in the tariff thread (wanted to keep my sanity and really had nothing to add anyhow) but am thrilled to see the CSeries have a more solid future. I'm just not clear that it's a huge blow to Boeing or a huge win for Airbus. More than anything, it legitimizes the CSeries, which is a win for the program. We'll see, though.

ACCS300 wrote:
I'll bet AC is wishing they'd never gone with the MAX now. I see both major Canadian carriers hugely supporting this partnership especially in the wake of Boeing's tanking image here.


I wonder if perhaps you might be overstating the emotion of this mashup a bit?

golfradio wrote:
Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.


I see no reason that Airbus needs to replace the A320neo, and I see no reason that Airbus would have struggled in any way deciding between investing in a MoM response and perhaps getting into the 100-150 seat category. In other words, karma aside, I don't see the big gain for Airbus in doing this deal for those specific reasons given.

Clipper101 wrote:
I remember Bombardier approached Airbus previously for a stake in the C-Series, but negotiations broke down & no deal went through. Now the second time around things went well, I am wondering what is the difference in approach between the first time & this one !


Price and desperation.

WaywardMemphian wrote:
The content was already said to be 55% American.

Poor Boeing, a great plane will see it's full potential.

I can see Spirit being more interested in it now. Maybe Allegiant now that it has actually bought new planes recently from AB, Frontier and that detached order is still floating in limbo.


I've long thought the CS300 would be a great plane for Allegiant, and the CS500 would as well if ever built. However, I'm guessing that the price may be going up a bit now given Airbus' involvement. Airbus isn't trying to charge less and they sure aren't trying to create a lower cost frame to compete with the A320.

leghorn wrote:
At this stage I think Boeing really need fuel to drop to 10 dollars a barrel. They can produce the 737 cheaply but not cheap enough to make it worth buying if it burns too much expensive fuel. That might get them through until they have a technologically competitive plane.


Because their fuel burn is so horrible right now?

Boeing778X wrote:
And THAT is a huge kick in the head for Boeing! Terrific news for the C-Series!

You know what would be a mind blowing lineup?

CS100
CS300
CS500
A321neo
A321LR
A322

Unstoppable! Boeing has to do an NSA now!


I think this:

CS100
CS300
A320neo
A321neo
A322neo

Does the job nicely. I've long thought that the CS100/CS300/A320neo/A321neo would be a killer lineup for an airline. And frankly, an E175/E190/MAX 8/MAX 10 wouldn't be all that bad either. You can throw in the E195 and MAX 9 but they are somewhat superfluous in the big picture.



Think as people have suggested there are multiple options:

CS100
CS300
A320neo (current wing)
A321neo (current wing)
A321ER (new wing)
A322 (new wing)

Or:

CS100
CS300
CS500
Option: A320neo (current wing)
A320neo plus (current wing) (198 seat as Keesje suggested).
A321neo (current wing)
A321ER (new wing)
A322NEO (new wing)


Obviously depends on the different cost vs. reward scenario's. Both would be very strong line ups. The 2nd even stronger, but at considerably higher required investment.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
StTim
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:53 am

Wow - this is very Pot calling the Kettle black.

We all know how much state (Washington State) support Boeing get in reduced taxes. :D
 
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seahawk
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:56 am

Mortyman wrote:
A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bomba ... SKBN1CL328


Spot on. Maybe it is time to have tariffs on Airbus products now.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:59 am

seahawk wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bomba ... SKBN1CL328


Spot on. Maybe it is time to have tariffs on Airbus products now.



A trade war between Europe and the US is not a good idea.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:01 am

A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


pot kettle black....
 
c933103
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:01 am

Taxi645 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I have not stepped foot in the tariff thread (wanted to keep my sanity and really had nothing to add anyhow) but am thrilled to see the CSeries have a more solid future. I'm just not clear that it's a huge blow to Boeing or a huge win for Airbus. More than anything, it legitimizes the CSeries, which is a win for the program. We'll see, though.

ACCS300 wrote:
I'll bet AC is wishing they'd never gone with the MAX now. I see both major Canadian carriers hugely supporting this partnership especially in the wake of Boeing's tanking image here.


I wonder if perhaps you might be overstating the emotion of this mashup a bit?

golfradio wrote:
Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.


I see no reason that Airbus needs to replace the A320neo, and I see no reason that Airbus would have struggled in any way deciding between investing in a MoM response and perhaps getting into the 100-150 seat category. In other words, karma aside, I don't see the big gain for Airbus in doing this deal for those specific reasons given.

Clipper101 wrote:
I remember Bombardier approached Airbus previously for a stake in the C-Series, but negotiations broke down & no deal went through. Now the second time around things went well, I am wondering what is the difference in approach between the first time & this one !


Price and desperation.

WaywardMemphian wrote:
The content was already said to be 55% American.

Poor Boeing, a great plane will see it's full potential.

I can see Spirit being more interested in it now. Maybe Allegiant now that it has actually bought new planes recently from AB, Frontier and that detached order is still floating in limbo.


I've long thought the CS300 would be a great plane for Allegiant, and the CS500 would as well if ever built. However, I'm guessing that the price may be going up a bit now given Airbus' involvement. Airbus isn't trying to charge less and they sure aren't trying to create a lower cost frame to compete with the A320.

leghorn wrote:
At this stage I think Boeing really need fuel to drop to 10 dollars a barrel. They can produce the 737 cheaply but not cheap enough to make it worth buying if it burns too much expensive fuel. That might get them through until they have a technologically competitive plane.


Because their fuel burn is so horrible right now?

Boeing778X wrote:
And THAT is a huge kick in the head for Boeing! Terrific news for the C-Series!

You know what would be a mind blowing lineup?

CS100
CS300
CS500
A321neo
A321LR
A322

Unstoppable! Boeing has to do an NSA now!


I think this:

CS100
CS300
A320neo
A321neo
A322neo

Does the job nicely. I've long thought that the CS100/CS300/A320neo/A321neo would be a killer lineup for an airline. And frankly, an E175/E190/MAX 8/MAX 10 wouldn't be all that bad either. You can throw in the E195 and MAX 9 but they are somewhat superfluous in the big picture.



Think as people have suggested there are multiple options:

CS100
CS300
A320neo (current wing)
A321neo (current wing)
A321ER (new wing)
A322 (new wing)

Or:

CS100
CS300
CS500
Option: A320neo (current wing)
A320neo plus (current wing) (198 seat as Keesje suggested).
A321neo (current wing)
A321ER (new wing)
A322NEO (new wing)


Obviously depends on the different cost vs. reward scenario's. Both would be very strong line ups. The 2nd even stronger, but at considerably higher required investment.

But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320
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armchairceonr1
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:04 am

I think that A319 stay and CS500 is coming. Those families complements each other and give smaller operators large scale options. They can stick in one family, to A320 family operator A319 gives low end option and to CS operator CS500 gives high end option.
 
Aviaponcho
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:08 am

Aircellist wrote:
… An interesting aspect is that now Airbus will own the design of an artificial-feel side stick…


Interesting is the fact that airbus might have to think at harmonizing Flight laws...
Cseries side stick is passive
Cseries throttle is active

https://leehamnews.com/2016/04/29/bjorn ... -controls/
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:10 am

People aren't reading what Airbus execs are saying. They aren't sounding like they bought the CSeries to bury it. Instead, they are already saying the 319NEO is basically dead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... as-fought/
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:10 am

Related to: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373777&

This boosts Iran as new CSeries customer IMO if any sanction comes up, only Canadian/British manufacturing
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:14 am

c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320

They may only have a 50.01% stake now, but the deal allows them take Bombardier's 31% stake in 7.5 years, and Investissement Québec's 19% stake progressively from 2023, so it is possible that if Airbus like the direction it is headed, the C Series will be a 100% Airbus product by the mid-2020s. Therefore I wouldn't be so certain that Airbus won't decide to invest further in the C Series if they decide it stacks up well at the lower end of the narrow body range. Time will tell.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:15 am

c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320


That's also a question of timing. Maybe not now, but towards the end of those 7.5 years.... ;)

EDIT: VirginFlyer beat me to it! :)
Last edited by Taxi645 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:21 am

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2017/10/16 ... ld-j-trump

Oct. 16, 2017:

Following on the Prime Minister’s visit to Washington, D.C., last week, the two leaders discussed the recent announcement by Bombardier concerning the future of the C-Series.



Seems like it's a little too late? :lol:
 
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seahawk
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:23 am

Mortyman wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


Spot on. Maybe it is time to have tariffs on Airbus products now.



A trade war between Europe and the US is not a good idea.


I have doubts if the current US administration agrees with that. And that move will leave a lot of hurt egos on the US side.
 
KICT
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am

Mortyman wrote:
A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


This repeated shtick from Boeing really is getting old. Boeing is perhaps *the* single-most "state-subsidized" company in the world. Their entire defense unit is basically a jobs program of the Federal government. They get tax breaks out the wazoo, all over the country. Never mind the fact that they *love* the EXIM financing apparatus that allows them to sell 100s of 777s to Gulf carriers. The hypocrisy is just astounding.
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c933103
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:25 am

ytz wrote:
People aren't reading what Airbus execs are saying. They aren't sounding like they bought the CSeries to bury it. Instead, they are already saying the 319NEO is basically dead:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... as-fought/

The question is not A319neo/CS300 but A320neo/CS500

Edit: After reading the link, seems like Airbus planned to buy 100% the right of CSeries.. Will it turn Airbus into more than just a European company?

VirginFlyer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320

They may only have a 50.01% stake now, but the deal allows them take Bombardier's 31% stake in 7.5 years, and Investissement Québec's 19% stake progressively from 2023, so it is possible that if Airbus like the direction it is headed, the C Series will be a 100% Airbus product by the mid-2020s. Therefore I wouldn't be so certain that Airbus won't decide to invest further in the C Series if they decide it stacks up well at the lower end of the narrow body range. Time will tell.

V/F


Taxi645 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320


That's also a question of timing. Maybe not now, but towards the end of those 7.5 years.... ;)

Now I see that they plan to ultimately buy out the entire proogram... but the program is still foreign to AIrbus like 717 was an MD aircraft. Would the introduction of CSeries into the lineup reduce Airbus's selling point of commonality across family?
Last edited by c933103 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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uta999
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:30 am

Perhaps Airbus might prefer to rename them....

A316 (CS300)
A317 (CS500)
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leghorn
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:37 am

My shares in Bombardier are up over 13% at the moment and over 7% on the day. It seems like the market is taking it well. I see it as potentially the loss of the C-series to bombardier and the plane was the only reason I bought Bombardier shares...I don't have a model train set at home.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 am

I am not so sure this is great news for BBD because now, even if a significant number of C-Series are shipped, half of the profits will end up at Airbus. The assembly lines in US will trump the tariffs and may make the aircraft (costs allowing) more attractive to US Customers but BBD will not get much of it.
The fact that much of it will remain in Quebec is temporary good news since I see Airbus optimizing the assemblies based on cost control (usual) and maybe shifting most of production in future to AZ since if the US market takes off, that's where the aircrafts will be sold. Canada does not have a market as big to compete and any Canadian made aircraft will attract heavy tariffs.
The good news here are really for Airbus which will literally "bridge" the whole like towards having a range from the 100 plus seat all the way to an 500-800 seats (if it continues with the A380 somehow) and for the C-Series Project itself which will live on either as a CS Project or maybe an A2xx one.
In other words, it somehow reminds me what happened when Boeing and McDonnell Douglas merged. I think that's the future and, unfortunately for BBD, their name may disappear.
But... still good news since more C-Series may fly on other airlines throughout the world which BBD never dreamt to achieve. Even, who knows, in ME.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:40 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
I think that A319 stay and CS500 is coming. Those families complements each other and give smaller operators large scale options. They can stick in one family, to A320 family operator A319 gives low end option and to CS operator CS500 gives high end option.


I'd say that Airbus has cleverly killed off CS500.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:42 am

Mortyman wrote:
A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bomba ... SKBN1CL328

Grasping for straws. Or, as Revelation put it, Boeing is feeling a little butthurt.

I would be very surprised, given Airbus’ legal muscle, if they have left themselves exposed to any action Boeing could take. Nonetheless, I’m a little surprised at the brazenness of Boeing’s statement. Perhaps they’re getting overly confident in their legal acumen. Cocky, some might say.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:43 am

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... M0T6-OCATP

In particular, it could drive Boeing closer to Embraer, with which it already cooperates. Embraer’s E2 jet is one of the main potential losers from the CSeries deal.

“The world has two top-tier airframers, and two second-tier airframers,” said Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia.

“Airbus and Bombardier are now allies. This greatly increases the likelihood of a stronger Boeing-Embraer alliance as a response.”

Such a move has long been contemplated in private.
But sitting in Boeing’s filing cabinets are designs for an all-new jet that would have involved intense collaboration with Embraer, according to two people familiar with the project. A template for closer co-operation therefore already exists.

“China has missed out on a huge opportunity to advance its aims by not getting the CSeries,” an industry strategist said.


A person close to Bombardier said Airbus would aim to pressure the key Boeing 737 MAX 8 model by squeezing it from below with the CSeries and from above with the popular A321neo. Some critics say it could also develop a larger CSeries.


Last edited by LockheedBBD on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:45 am

c933103 wrote:
Would the introduction of CSeries into the lineup reduce Airbus's selling point of commonality across family?


Only between the C-series and the A320 I reckon. I don't know the technical and cost vs. reward implications of making an effort to improve commonality between the two types the coming 10 years. Would be smart to let it coincide that with a possible introduction of the C500 in a few years.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
leghorn
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:45 am

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
From a Leeham article back in May:

"Boeing told the US International Trade Commission in a May 24 closing brief that Bombardier, in essence, will become the next Airbus if the ITC does nothing to penalize Bombardier by slapping 79% tariffs on the Delta aircraft."

And now, thanks in part to Boeing's complain, the C Series became an Airbus plane.

If that's not irony I don't know what it is.

Poetic F*cking Justice, that's what it is.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:48 am

“questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors”

Is he talking about the 787 deal between Boeing and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries? Or does the arrogance really run that deep within corporate HQ at Boeing? Haven't they learned a thing from the takeover of Boeing by McD (using Boeing's money, very clever that) or their supreme arrogance towards Airbus in the 80s?
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keesje
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:48 am

A320NEO and CS500 are two very different cases. In terms of backlog, fleet commonality, cargo AKH capability, payload range, engine choice.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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zeke
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:54 am

I am happy about the prospects of increasing the amount of work in Mobil with possible C series assembly. Should provide good export prospects for the C series with EXIM financing.

Bit like the Japanese built assembled in America 787.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:54 am

ER757 wrote:
Continental767 wrote:
I don’t think Boeing saw that coming! Would like to know what is being said in Chicago right now...

If I typed what I am guessing is being said, it would probably get deleted and I'd be receiving a nasty email from the moderators :lol:


Same here. I often get deleted over here for speaking my mind!!! :roll: So, I'll play it safe and keep a low profile.... :tongue2:
Can't decide whether I am happier to see the C-series future assured, or Boeing getting slapped in the face -along with the Trump's administration protectionist bureaucracy! :slaphappy:
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:56 am

uta999 wrote:
Perhaps Airbus might prefer to rename them....

A316 (CS300)
A317 (CS500)

Back to the future:
Image

The AE316 and AE317 were going to be a regional jet jointly developed by Airbus, Alexis, AVIC, and Singapore Technologies Aerospace, until it all unraveled during the Asian Financial Crisis, and Airbus went on to produce the A318.

Perhaps it could be the AC316-100 and the AC317-300? Or to include the CS500, the AC315-100, AC316-300 and AC317-500? Or if the A318 and A319 are dead, they could go AC317-100, AC318-300 and AC319-500? Or something else to that effect.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:00 am

Another important piece of information is that Airbus will buy the remaining shares by 2023:

The fine print on the deal is that by 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining Bombardier and Quebec C Series shares.


https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 6899763200
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vfw614
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:02 am

KarelXWB wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
I think that A319 stay and CS500 is coming. Those families complements each other and give smaller operators large scale options. They can stick in one family, to A320 family operator A319 gives low end option and to CS operator CS500 gives high end option.


I'd say that Airbus has cleverly killed off CS500.


I'd say they found themselves a state-of-the-art successor to the A319 which has not been selling anymore ever since the NEO was launched. The NB aircraft market has moved into new brackets (just like the when the 737NG replaced the 737Classic and the 130 seater died). The future will be 100-170 seats (CS100/300/500) and 180 to 240 seats (A320/A321 and maybe a variant in-between for 200 seats).
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:03 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320

They may only have a 50.01% stake now, but the deal allows them take Bombardier's 31% stake in 7.5 years, and Investissement Québec's 19% stake progressively from 2023, so it is possible that if Airbus like the direction it is headed, the C Series will be a 100% Airbus product by the mid-2020s. Therefore I wouldn't be so certain that Airbus won't decide to invest further in the C Series if they decide it stacks up well at the lower end of the narrow body range. Time will tell.

V/F


Exactly. Try pushing some CS100/300s for the next 4 years. See if sales pick-up. Initial deliveries won't be cash cows. If around the 4 year mark sales and cash-flow start going the right way, introduce R&D costs for the development of the CS500. The key is timing. Make sure that CS500 development outcome is still unsure at the 7.5 years mark and Airbus can buy the whole program for a good price and then start accelerating sales.
 
parapente
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:04 am

They say."marry in haste and repent at your leisure ".I hope this isn't the case for Airbus.Cheap deals are not necessarily good deals.
I think there must be way more to this than meets they eye.This is global politics in action IMHO .My guess was that the fear of China getting there hands on a huge chunk of 'latest' technology is very much part of this.

In A&B terms the sub 150 market is very small beer.Indeed not only small its shrinking.Its a 'nice to have' for Airbus but hardly critical.
It's not just Airbus who can't sell150 seaters(319neo),Boeing have not done much better (with a more suited product) and neither has anybody else in the sub 150 category.
The announcement that the already dead A319 is now officially dead sums it up (although it might still be a LR biz jet?).
You only have to look at the recent and ongoing A321NEO developments and the B737-10 developments to see where the real future market lies.And that's without including 321plus and plus/plus and the 797X.
Better to have (French speaking) Bombardier under Toulouse management than Beijing-I am sure Boeing would agree.Frankly if Boeing had really wanted to own it,they could have,but it's a money pit.Better the enemy you can see than the one you can't.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:11 am

I am glad to hear this. The CSeries is an incredible aircraft and with Airbus's help, it will achieve even better, bigger and greater things.

I am very disappointed with Boeing. I love their aircraft but the way the handled this situation with Bombardier is appalling. Have they forgotten how they so heavily discounted their own 787 to keep market share that they have accrued such incredible debt on that programme? Also, we know how badly they managed the 787 programme as a whole.

Maybe Airbus should have called for tarrifs on the 787...

Having said that, Boeing will have a chance to learn a lesson now, with one competitor they were trying to kill now being stronger and having greater reach and the other established competitor having a better line-up to offer in RFPs.

I love Boeing but they make it so hard...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
Noshow
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:11 am

Big surprise to me. I had expected China to invest there.
Expect the A319 to face tough times - and at least the MAX7.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:15 am

People! Look at the BIG picture. Airbus isn't killing any CS500. If anything, they've just got CS500 handed over on a silver platter!

KarelXWB wrote:

I'd say that Airbus has cleverly killed off CS500.


2017:
- CS100 (110 pax)
- CS300 (140 pax)
- A320neo (170 pax)
- A321neo (200 pax)

Circa 2020, Airbus will have to either put a new wing on A32x or design all-new, own "MoM" aircraft, to be able to offer it's own 4000nm product. My money is on all-new wing for A32x due to its fuselage's unmatched, superior efficiency vs. 737 and to keep development cost down. With CS500 being nothing more than a simple stretch - enough for 2500nm+ range - we'll have the following:

- CS100 (110 pax)
- CS300 (140 pax)
- CS500 (170 pax, replaces A320neo in current Airbus lineup)
- A32xneo+ (200 pax, replaces A321neo in current Airbus lineup)
- A32xneo+ (230 pax, competes with Boeing's MoM "-8")
- A32xneo+ (260 pax, competes with Boeing's MoM "-9")

Airlines which do need 3000+ nm range are already moving up to A321/737-9/737-10 territory and will continue to do so. Furthermore, as someone else wrote, CSeries isn't some re-hashed, obsolete 1960-era product MD-95 was at the time Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, but the true next-generation narrowbody Airbus is going to milk. Having ownership of the programme secured, Airbus can now focus on the true challenge, which is responding to Boeing's MoM and killing its economics. Theoretical A32xneo+ with all-new wings, engines and further enhancements will do the job.

...and no, Trump/Boeing cheergirls, tariffs are off the table. All CSeries destined for US-based airlines will be produced in Alabama. And so will all future Airbus frames, destined for the same region.

In your balls.
Last edited by BlueSky1976 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Taxi645
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:19 am

keesje wrote:
A320NEO and CS500 are two very different cases. In terms of backlog, fleet commonality, cargo AKH capability, payload range, engine choice.


Hey Keesje, would be interested on your take on the Bombardier/Airbus narrowbody line up in 7-10years.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:20 am

parapente wrote:
They say."marry in haste and repent at your leisure ".I hope this isn't the case for Airbus.Cheap deals are not necessarily good deals.
I think there must be way more to this than meets they eye.This is global politics in action IMHO .My guess was that the fear of China getting there hands on a huge chunk of 'latest' technology is very much part of this.

In A&B terms the sub 150 market is very small beer.Indeed not only small its shrinking.Its a 'nice to have' for Airbus but hardly critical.
It's not just Airbus who can't sell150 seaters(319neo),Boeing have not done much better (with a more suited product) and neither has anybody else in the sub 150 category.
The announcement that the already dead A319 is now officially dead sums it up (although it might still be a LR biz jet?).
You only have to look at the recent and ongoing A321NEO developments and the B737-10 developments to see where the real future market lies.And that's without including 321plus and plus/plus and the 797X.
Better to have (French speaking) Bombardier under Toulouse management than Beijing-I am sure Boeing would agree.Frankly if Boeing had really wanted to own it,they could have,but it's a money pit.Better the enemy you can see than the one you can't.


I would not say the sub-150-seat market is small and/or shrinking. It is just that efficiency has always favoured larger frames, especially in A and B's line-ups where the A319 and 73G have to compete with their more efficient stable mates - A320/738.

However, as we see with the 77W and 744 before it, when a smaller, clean-sheet aircraft becomes available that either matches or exceeds the efficiency of the larger frame, airlines are less willing to gamble with higher capacity and instead take the right-sized aircraft.

I am sure that the CSeries is incredibly efficient and will make a lot of sense for airlines who could have bought the A320/738 over the A319/73G just because it was more efficient per seat and not that much more expensive to operate per trip. They likely did not need the capacity but absorbed it because it was cheaper than the alternatives.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:22 am

Boeing continues it's streak of bad business moves ...
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:23 am

vfw614 wrote:
I'd say they found themselves a state-of-the-art successor to the A319 which has not been selling anymore ever since the NEO was launched. The NB aircraft market has moved into new brackets (just like the when the 737NG replaced the 737Classic and the 130 seater died). The future will be 100-170 seats (CS100/300/500) and 180 to 240 seats (A320/A321 and maybe a variant in-between for 200 seats).


Sure, except CS500 stretch would not be A319 territory. Airbus will protect the A320 baseline as long as it keeps selling in large numbers. Whatever happens after that remains to be seen.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FoxtrotSierra wrote:
People are "missing" it because what you said doesn't make any sense even if Airbus owned 100%. Airbus would absolutely compete against itself with the CS500. They will already with the CS100 and 300. The difference between the A320 and CS500 will be minute. Airlines would simply play the CS500 and A320 off each other. You think Airbus is going to spend the money to develop and produce the CS500 just so it can try to trade orders between itself? Nonsense. Your dislike of Boeing is clouding your judgement.

IMO Your dislike of BBD is clouding your judgement.... ;)

The following reasons speak for a CS500 beside the A320NEO:

- Because it would be a better 150 seater. As a significant CASM delta would be opening up to the MAX, Airbus should be more than happy with 60-80% of the NB market with their combined A320/CSeries package.

- Because the development would not cost much

- Because the CS500 could be sold as 150 seater to regional airlines and the A320NEO as 150-170 seater to mainline airlines.

- Some airlines/groups prefer different aircraft types between regional/mainline fleets. If both CS500/A320 would be offered, the customers would have the flexibility to draw the borderline (while anyway buying from Airbus)

- Because regional airlines could cover a larger size range with a single fleet. There are regional airlines with 737/A320 fleets. These could migrate to C-Series fleets with perfect options in the sub-140 seat range while still being centered around the most sophisticated and innovative 150 seater. These airlines don't need the 737/A319 range monsters.

- Because mainline airlines might be tempted to shift the next larger aircraft size to their regional subsidiaries. So all this might turn out hurtful for mainline pilots pools.

- Because it would give Airbus a much better chance to concentrate on the MOM market without fearing huge losses in the bread-and-butter market (150-200 seats). IMO a CS500 would leave Boeing so weak in the sub-200 seat market, that they wont dare going forward with the MOM. Boeing is as vulnerable there now as never before. I predict Boeings MOM to be shelved and some hastily actions to safeguard the bottom of their product range.

- For all these reasons, a CS500 would possibly reduce the A320NEO market a bit, but provide a much more compelling overall product range to Airbus on the other hand. I can see it coming.
Last edited by rheinwaldner on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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c933103
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
People! Look at the BIG picture. Airbus isn't killing any CS500. If anything, they've just got CS500 handed over on a silver platter!

KarelXWB wrote:

I'd say that Airbus has cleverly killed off CS500.


2017:
- CS100 (110 pax)
- CS300 (140 pax)
- A320neo (170 pax)
- A321neo (200 pax)

Circa 2020, Airbus will have to either put a new wing on A32x or design all-new, own "MoM" aircraft, to be able to offer it's own 4000nm product. My money is on all-new wing for A32x due to its fuselage's unmatched, superior efficiency vs. 737 and to keep development cost down. With CS500 being nothing more than a simple stretch - enough for 2500nm+ range - we'll have the following:

- CS100 (110 pax)
- CS300 (140 pax)
- CS500 (170 pax, replaces A320neo in current Airbus lineup)
- A32xneo+ (200 pax, replaces A321neo in current Airbus lineup)
- A32xneo+ (230 pax, competes with Boeing's MoM "-8")
- A32xneo+ (260 pax, competes with Boeing's MoM "-9")

Airlines which do need 3000+ nm range are already moving up to A321/737-9/737-10 territory and will continue to do so. Furthermore, as someone else wrote, CSeries isn't some re-hashed, obsolete 1960-era product MD-95 was at the time Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, but the true next-generation narrowbody Airbus is going to milk. Having ownership of the programme secured, Airbus can now focus on the true challenge, which is responding to Boeing's MoM and killing its economics. Theoretical A32xneo+ with all-new wings, engines and further enhancements will do the job.

...and no, Trump/Boeing cheergirls, tariffs are off the table. All CSeries destined for US-based airlines will be produced in Alabama. And so will all future Airbus frames, destined for the same region.

In your balls.

those 320neos are still new as of now and will still be new as of around 2020 with years of backlog. Perhaps more likely to be in 2030-ish time frame, but Airbus was alreeady going to replace A320 series with some new narrowbody in 2030s?
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KarelXWB
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:32 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 3864
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:33 am

seahawk wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A Boeing spokesman dismissed the agreement as a “questionable deal between two state-subsidized competitors” to try to skirt a recent U.S. trade finding against the CSeries.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bomba ... SKBN1CL328


Spot on. Maybe it is time to have tariffs on Airbus products now.

Even if they are produced in Alabama? :scratchchin:

I don't know much, but what I know that this Airbus/Bombardier-deal is just one step and Boeing will react in some way (I was even inclined to write "just one battle in a longer war").
As others already posted, maybe they will increase the level of cooperation with Embraer. Why not. I am big fan of our B-/A-duopoly.
 
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keesje
Posts: 13308
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:34 am

Taxi645 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A320NEO and CS500 are two very different cases. In terms of backlog, fleet commonality, cargo AKH capability, payload range, engine choice.


Hey Keesje, would be interested on your take on the Bombardier/Airbus narrowbody line up in 7-10years.


That's the next question. Probably even a political one. Probably Boeing / congress won't sit on it's hands and launch a 737 succesor, smaller than the NMA specs we've seen so far. Maybe with the Brazilians.
Last edited by keesje on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jumpjets
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:37 am

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but only just seen this news and the nine pages of posts to scan through...

Is the consensus in the forum that this news will mean the end of the road for the A319neo? With less than 100 orders, I believe, will this plane be shelved quietly and existing customers guided towards the CS range?
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:41 am

parapente wrote:
They say."marry in haste and repent at your leisure ".I hope this isn't the case for Airbus.Cheap deals are not necessarily good deals.
I think there must be way more to this than meets they eye.This is global politics in action IMHO .My guess was that the fear of China getting there hands on a huge chunk of 'latest' technology is very much part of this.

In A&B terms the sub 150 market is very small beer.Indeed not only small its shrinking.Its a 'nice to have' for Airbus but hardly critical.
It's not just Airbus who can't sell150 seaters(319neo),Boeing have not done much better (with a more suited product) and neither has anybody else in the sub 150 category.
The announcement that the already dead A319 is now officially dead sums it up (although it might still be a LR biz jet?).
You only have to look at the recent and ongoing A321NEO developments and the B737-10 developments to see where the real future market lies.And that's without including 321plus and plus/plus and the 797X.
Better to have (French speaking) Bombardier under Toulouse management than Beijing-I am sure Boeing would agree.Frankly if Boeing had really wanted to own it,they could have,but it's a money pit.Better the enemy you can see than the one you can't.


It’s rather a chicken and the egg question. Did A and B build bigger planes because that’s what the market demanded? Or, is it that as they sought to stretch the planes, that and all the improvements made along the way caused the smaller models to become less competitive. Why fly a B736 when a B73G has similar trip costs and carries that many more people? I think it’s more about the market shifting to match the available product than the other way ‘round. Now, Airbus is in a position to effectively address all seat counts with excellent CASM. Boeing does not presently have that ability.
 
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Brixerl
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:41 am

vfw614 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
I think that A319 stay and CS500 is coming. Those families complements each other and give smaller operators large scale options. They can stick in one family, to A320 family operator A319 gives low end option and to CS operator CS500 gives high end option.


I'd say that Airbus has cleverly killed off CS500.


I'd say they found themselves a state-of-the-art successor to the A319 which has not been selling anymore ever since the NEO was launched. The NB aircraft market has moved into new brackets (just like the when the 737NG replaced the 737Classic and the 130 seater died). The future will be 100-170 seats (CS100/300/500) and 180 to 240 seats (A320/A321 and maybe a variant in-between for 200 seats).


May I invite you to the discussion about this aspect and the future of the narrowbody market in Tech/Ops?
"Airbus and CS-series: Todays narrowbody-market may never be the same as we know it today"
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1376423
Respected members: airmagnac, ap305, enzo011, KarelXWB, keesje, lightsaber, longhauler, masi1157, mfranjic, parapente, Polot, Revelation, rotating14, seabosdca, speedbored, Stitch, tommy1808, Wiederling, zeke
 
leghorn
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:44 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... 320_orders

According to this there are 70 orders for A319 CEO and NEO. Who would want to take delivery of an example of that dead design now. Those Custoemrs will be steered toward an A320 or a CS130 now.
Forget about Airbus wanting to build it, who'd want to buy it.
Last edited by leghorn on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sxf24
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:44 am

One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.

By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing. The proposed corporate structure doesn't enable significant subsidization o f below-cost pricing and Airbus is going to want to minimize cannibalization of its much, much, more profitable A320 family. If Airbus tries to raise the pricing of the A320 to better fit with the cost of the C-Series, it is going to drive more business to Boeing.

Strategically, there seems to be a lot of potential. Execution will be interesting.
Last edited by sxf24 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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