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KarelXWB
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:47 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
- Because the CS500 could be sold as 150 seater to regional airlines and the A320NEO as 150-170 seater to mainline airlines.


As CS300 already stretches to 160 seats in charter airline configuration, CS500 would clearly hold 170 to 180 seats in regional cabin configurations. That is A320 territory.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:48 am

keesje wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A320NEO and CS500 are two very different cases. In terms of backlog, fleet commonality, cargo AKH capability, payload range, engine choice.


Hey Keesje, would be interested on your take on the Bombardier/Airbus narrowbody line up in 7-10years.


That's the next question. Probably even a political one. Probably Boeing / congress won't sit on it's hands and launch a 737 succesor, smaller than the NMA specs we've seen so far. Maybe with the Brazilians.


I wonder if there is any relation between the timing of this (reasonably swift) move by Airbus and reaching an internal point of no return for the 797 at Boeing? As Airbus said: "All the stars aligned". Perhaps that's more stars than we think...
Last edited by Taxi645 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:48 am

MoKa777 wrote:
I am glad to hear this. The CSeries is an incredible aircraft and with Airbus's help, it will achieve even better, bigger and greater things.

I am very disappointed with Boeing. I love their aircraft but the way the handled this situation with Bombardier is appalling. .


Spot on. It looks like they should have left well alone. Now they are probably facing a bigger threat.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:48 am

sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.

By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price.

The larger competitor product was only selling cheap because they felt that they could run Bombardier out of town. That isn't the case any more.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:50 am

From twitter:


Phil Musser‏ ( Senior Vice President, Communications, Boeing )
@pmusser

If @Airbus and @Bombardier think this deal will get them around the rules....#thinkagain

17.27 - 16. okt. 2017



Rainer Ohler‏ @roblagnac · ( Lawyer by training, today Head of Communications at Airbus ) 3 hours ago

Response to @pmusser @Airbus @Bombardier

@Boeing When in a glasshouse - don't throw stones: Boeing subsidies galore $5bn for B787 and $8.7bn for B777x.



https://twitter.com/pmusser/status/920083802185256960
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:54 am

Mortyman wrote:
From twitter:


Phil Musser‏ ( Senior Vice President, Communications, Boeing )
@pmusser

If @Airbus and @Bombardier think this deal will get them around the rules....#thinkagain

17.27 - 16. okt. 2017



Rainer Ohler‏ @roblagnac · ( Lawyer by training, today Head of Communications at Airbus ) 3 hours ago

Response to @pmusser @Airbus @Bombardier

@Boeing When in a glasshouse - don't throw stones: Boeing subsidies galore $5bn for B787 and $8.7bn for B777x.



https://twitter.com/pmusser/status/920083802185256960


What a way to communicate.

That reads like some heads are exploding.

Let's wait and see what the legal guys have to say.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:55 am

sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.


It isn't, but Airbus can still assist longer term (also C500, commonality and shared R&D).

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.


It's not so much the team that is important, but rather the conditions, package deals, availability, having a secure future for the program and one less competitor where Airbus can help.

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.
.

Still won't hurt to have the likes of Airbus behind you there.

sxf24 wrote:
By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing. The proposed corporate structure doesn't enable significant subsidization o f below-cost pricing and Airbus is going to want to minimize cannibalization of its much, much, more profitable A320 family. If Airbus tries to raise the pricing of the A320 to better fit with the cost of the C-Series, it is going to drive more business to Boeing.

Strategically, there seems to be a lot of potential. Execution will be interesting.


Indeed.
Last edited by Taxi645 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:56 am

leghorn wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.

By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price.

The larger competitor product was only selling cheap because they felt that they could run Bombardier out of town. That isn't the case any more.


Airbus still has to compete with Boeing. Airbus can't raise A320 pricing to incentivize CS100/300 purchases without loosing market share to Boeing.

It doesn't matter how great a product you build: if you can't profitably sell at it market prices, you won't be successful.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:57 am

Taxi645 wrote:
I wonder if there is any relation between this (reasonably swift) move by Airbus and reaching an internal point of no return for the 797 at Boeing?


You think something like a A330 slogs on due to "787 lessons learned" repeated ?

Look at:
BCA -> BBD dumping spat vs AB <> BBD joinup : what is hen, what is egg ?
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:58 am

flyabr wrote:
Couple questions/comments. How fast can an assembly line be set up in AL? DL is supposed to take delivery of some C Series jets in 2018. How long can they push off this order to wait for AL assembly? Also, can't help but wonder if Airbus will now have a leg up on the upcoming DL NB order? A package that includes exercising some C Series options, as well as new NEO aircraft could work well for DL!


I do not think we will see C series out of Mobile in 2018, but I think 2019 should be possible.

I think Airbus will have a leg up on any order from DL in the near future. Boeing angers airlines at its own peril.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:03 am

Taxi645 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.


It isn't, but Airbus can still assist longer term (also C500, commonality and shared R&D).

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.


It's not so much the team that is important, but rather the conditions, package deals, availability and one less competitor where Airbus can help.

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.
.

Still won't hurt to have the likes of Airbus behind you there.

sxf24 wrote:
By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing. The proposed corporate structure doesn't enable significant subsidization o f below-cost pricing and Airbus is going to want to minimize cannibalization of its much, much, more profitable A320 family. If Airbus tries to raise the pricing of the A320 to better fit with the cost of the C-Series, it is going to drive more business to Boeing.

Strategically, there seems to be a lot of potential. Execution will be interesting.


Indeed.


I agree there is long term cost opportunity, particularly on reducing supply chain costs. Higher production rate also leads to lower costs (though a second FAL offsets that somewhat). I would not be surprised if the Bombardier sales team is made redundant, which will also help overhead.

Short term, I'm a bit more skeptical. One of the biggest drivers of an airplane's success is having sufficient liquidity in the marketplace with a diverse group of operators, e.g. the A320 and 737. It is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" scenario as the C-Series will continue to struggle to sell more aircraft until it sells more aircraft. I remain skeptical whether there will be sufficient financial flexibility to sell more at Delta-level pricing, which is what the market expects.

Of course, the biggest risk to Airbus here is being distracted from its core product line.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:05 am

KarelXWB wrote:


People who don't like smiling Leahy's better take a break today.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:07 am

Great news indeed. I think this puts paid to any CS500, but should help sales of the CS100 and CS300 significantly. Somehow though - I don't know how - I suspect that Boeing will try to block this deal do delay this from happening as much as possible. They will not want this deal to go through. I suppose the offer of US jobs and assembly might undermine support that Boeing needs to make its case but I don't see them lying down and taking this without a fight. Thoughts?
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:08 am

keesje wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A320NEO and CS500 are two very different cases. In terms of backlog, fleet commonality, cargo AKH capability, payload range, engine choice.


Hey Keesje, would be interested on your take on the Bombardier/Airbus narrowbody line up in 7-10years.


That's the next question. Probably even a political one. Probably Boeing / congress won't sit on it's hands and launch a 737 succesor, smaller than the NMA specs we've seen so far. Maybe with the Brazilians.


Congress would have nothing to do with it.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:15 am

leghorn wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A320_orders

According to this there are 70 orders for A319 CEO and NEO. Who would want to take delivery of an example of that dead design now. Those Custoemrs will be steered toward an A320 or a CS130 now.
Forget about Airbus wanting to build it, who'd want to buy it.


Airlines who want to have containerised cargo ability and commonality with the bigger A320/A321 in their fleet could still want the A319.

If the A319 is already designed and certified (neo will be soon) and built, then why not continue to offer it?
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:15 am

KarelXWB wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
- Because the CS500 could be sold as 150 seater to regional airlines and the A320NEO as 150-170 seater to mainline airlines.

As CS300 already stretches to 160 seats in charter airline configuration, CS500 would clearly hold 170 to 180 seats in regional cabin configurations. That is A320 territory.

I agree it does overlap in size to some degree (still not fully). My argument showed reasons, why this does not necessarily matter. If a CS500 would be more economic than a A320 (seems to be the case), it will takes sales from the 737, which would the A320 not. Good for Airbus.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:17 am

KarelXWB wrote:
those 320neos are still new as of now and will still be new as of around 2020 with years of backlog. Perhaps more likely to be in 2030-ish time frame, but Airbus was alreeady going to replace A320 series with some new narrowbody in 2030s?


Possible.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:19 am

OA260 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
I am glad to hear this. The CSeries is an incredible aircraft and with Airbus's help, it will achieve even better, bigger and greater things.

I am very disappointed with Boeing. I love their aircraft but the way the handled this situation with Bombardier is appalling. .


Spot on. It looks like they should have left well alone. Now they are probably facing a bigger threat.


Exactly! :checkmark:
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:22 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As CS300 already stretches to 160 seats in charter airline configuration, CS500 would clearly hold 170 to 180 seats in regional cabin configurations. That is A320 territory.


It would give Airbus the chance to design the A320NG as a 200 seater and 250 seat A321 without losing the market below, which may be a good thing in a long term strategy.

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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:25 am

MoKa777 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
I am glad to hear this. The CSeries is an incredible aircraft and with Airbus's help, it will achieve even better, bigger and greater things.

I am very disappointed with Boeing. I love their aircraft but the way the handled this situation with Bombardier is appalling. .


Spot on. It looks like they should have left well alone. Now they are probably facing a bigger threat.


Exactly! :checkmark:


Wonderful news! This will be a great addition to Airbus' product line and will give Bombardier the support needed to make the C Series program a success.

Another Boeing screwup. Penny wise pound foolish.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:26 am

Airbus-Bombardier deal expected to jumpstart CSeries jet sales in Asia - analysts

Airbus SE’s (AIR.PA) deal for a majority stake in Bombardier Inc’s (BBDb.TO) CSeries jet programme is expected to jumpstart sales of the Canadian aircraft in Asia, analysts said.

“Interest in the CSeries has been low in this region and having Airbus supporting the programme could be a big boost,” Brendan Sobie, Singapore-based chief analyst at CAPA Centre for Aviation, told Reuters on Tuesday.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:29 am

keesje wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


People who don't like smiling Leahy's better take a break today.


The CS300 rudder is missing. Tech or marketing?

Oeps seems to be on looking closer :)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:33 am

KarelXWB wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
- Because the CS500 could be sold as 150 seater to regional airlines and the A320NEO as 150-170 seater to mainline airlines.


As CS300 already stretches to 160 seats in charter airline configuration, CS500 would clearly hold 170 to 180 seats in regional cabin configurations. That is A320 territory.


Airbus can move the A320 up the line, by stretching it somewhat. Stretch it 1.5 m, and it will reach about 200 pax in an LCC configuration.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:39 am

Lmao, I haven't read the full details of the deal, and who knows a year, 2 years, 3 years from now, it could turn out this was a shitty deal, BUT just on the surface the fact that this is a middle finger to Boeing and is already getting fanboys mad on twitter, is enough instant gratification for now.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:43 am

mjoelnir wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
- Because the CS500 could be sold as 150 seater to regional airlines and the A320NEO as 150-170 seater to mainline airlines.


As CS300 already stretches to 160 seats in charter airline configuration, CS500 would clearly hold 170 to 180 seats in regional cabin configurations. That is A320 territory.


Airbus can move the A320 up the line, by stretching it somewhat. Stretch it 1.5 m, and it will reach about 200 pax in an LCC configuration.


The potential CS500 gives Airbus an opportunity to stretch and re-wing the A320 family into MoM territory without any compromises required to protect the A319 zone.
 
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:46 am

c933103 wrote:
But since Airbus now have and only have 50.1% stack at CSeries, as oppose to the 100% airbus-owned A320 series, any CSeries sold by them would only give them half the profit as oppose to any A320 sold by them that would give them full profit. Therefore I can't see Airbus authorizing the development of a CSeries aircraft to succeed A320


Airbus has a call option to buy out the minority owners in a few year's time, and the minorities have a put option to require them to.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:47 am

It makes interesting option for a re-winged A320.

You could go with an A320+ (1 extra row) - A321 - A322 and have the CSeries cover the market below. Imho the change of a A321 stretch with a new wing has hugely increased today.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:49 am

keesje wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


People who don't like smiling Leahy's better take a break today.


How about an announcement today of a nice order to ruin Boeing's day completely? (but in order to avoid adding insult to injury, preferably not from an US airline :-) )
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:52 am

Wow, didn't see that coming.

But I can't wait to see where this leads. With the stroke of a pen, Airbus has just rid itself of the issue of having to replace everything from the A319 to the potential MoM plane with one frame. They can now throw all their development resources into doing an optimised 200-250 seater.

I could see the C100 replacing the A318, the C300 replacing the A319, and the C500 eventually replacing the A320 from below. Airbus can then focus on rewinging or developing a new A320 replacement with a 190-200 seats (Keesjes A320.5). The A320.5 would form the smallest member of a family that would count the A321 and A322.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:58 am

vfw614 wrote:
How about an announcement today of a nice order to ruin Boeing's day completely? (but in order to avoid adding insult to injury, preferably not from an US airline :-) )


Southwest has only 31 ~150-seater on order ......

Now that would probably be the biggest shock of the industry...

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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:59 am

sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Strange one this, I thought you provided a concise list of exactly where Airbus could provide assistance:

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.

Eh? It's not like Airbus is a venture capital firm! All their product lines evolve incrementally. You could see the C-Series coming into Skywise, weight reduction, wingtip treatments, aero cleanups, better leverage with P&W for pips etc.

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.

What can a company that typically shifts about 100 or so commercial airliners benefit from one that delivers 600 odd? The level of customer contact has got to be on another level surely. And to add to that (because political leverage is important) you have the backing of the French, German and Spanish governments to add to Canada and the UK?

sxf24 wrote:
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.

Now more extensive! But it's more about addressing customer concerns about the longevity of support.

sxf24 wrote:
By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing.

And yet the claim the opposite: "Significant C Series production costs savings anticipated by leveraging Airbus’ supply chain expertise". And let's be honest, the A320 and the 737 are the two truly commoditised large jet programmes, and if anyone can drive down recurring costs it's one of the big two. And A. will be hoping for a virtuous circle I'm sure - product improvements, support and marketing driving volume which in turn drives cost reductions etc. And you could argue that Boeing's only means of competing with the C-Series (prior to going the protectionist route) was with 73% discounts.

I think this is great fun. The law of unintended consequences. I'm sure this was gamed, and the loss of the F/A 18 order was baked in, possibly some reaction from the UK. But this has been unexpected - I don't think anyone buys Enders saying that the deal was going to happen anyway. It's hard to see a US response short of full on trade war. We'll see. Interesting times.
Last edited by BaconButty on Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
rigo
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:00 am

I'll certainly be happy if this gives a future to the C-Series. BUT: what about the anti-trust regulations?
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:04 am

keesje wrote:
keesje wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


People who don't like smiling Leahy's better take a break today.


The CS300 rudder is missing. Tech or marketing?

Oeps seems to be on looking closer :)


So the Toulousains have started taking it apart to study it already :D

On a serious note it would be quite interesting to see how much of a budget is needed to have cockpit commonality with the A32X series.

Also interested to see if they are going to market it as an Airbus AXXX.

ThePointblank wrote:
ytz wrote:
Cruiser wrote:

Is Alabama really that much cheaper to build planes? I mean these are highly skilled people in either Toronto or Alabama.

.....


.....

.....

The council also notes that Quebec has one of the highest payroll taxes in all of Canada... and generally, payroll taxes in Canada are much higher than in the US.


If you ask major corporations and airlines payroll is not their #1 concern/expense. If it was there would be no industry/research in pretty much the whole of Northern Europe/Scandinavia.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:05 am

WIederling wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
I wonder if there is any relation between this (reasonably swift) move by Airbus and reaching an internal point of no return for the 797 at Boeing?


You think something like a A330 slogs on due to "787 lessons learned" repeated ?

Look at:
BCA -> BBD dumping spat vs AB <> BBD joinup : what is hen, what is egg ?



Well wouldn't it be smart for Airbus to put the 737 program into a lot of trouble through a pincher move with the C-series and the A320 just when Boeing has reached an internal point of no return for the 797 (or at least, no return without breaking a lot of deals, costing a lot of money and loosing a lot of face). Having locked down a lot of resources into a nice, but in the greater scheme of things, not most important market segment with the 797, there won't be anywhere near as much resources available for a much more important market segment; the narrowbody market. Thus putting Boeing in a vulnerable position through not being able to put all resources as easily in a narrowbody response. Together with the risks for the C-series program steadily increasing without further action, the timing seems to be well chosen.

If so, that would be great strategical move by Airbus.
Last edited by Taxi645 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:07 am

william wrote:
william wrote:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/companies/airbus-buys-majority-stake-bombardier-cseries/index.html

"The pair has been in talks since August, said Airbus Group CEO Tom Enders, who said the arrangement wasn't motivated by Boeing's suit. Airbus and Bombardier attempted a link up in 2015, but those talks fell through once news of the negotiations became public".

"In a single move, Bombardier and Airbus have gone from rivals to partners. Airbus's retiring chief salesman John Leahy long mocked the small airliner, and aggressively and repeatedly blocked the plane from winning deals at airlines around the world.
The move has broad implications for U.S. aerospace manufacturing and the global balance of power to build jetliners for the world's airlines. Melding the Airbus product line with Bombardier's C Series gives a broad range of airplanes -- from 100 seats all the way through Airbus's 555-seat A380 superjumbo -- as it seeks to craft deals and win business over Boeing."


This is funny, I thought Boeing was the big bad wolf. There were two big bad wolves chasing after Little Red BBD?



As a result of high narrowbody production rates, reality is that Airbus could easily undercut any CSeries pricing offer.
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Mortyman
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:09 am

Image
 
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scbriml
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:10 am

sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?


A lot of it seems to have been down to BBD themselves - many customers lacked confidence in the manufacturer. The plane is good, very good, the issue has been how reliable BBD would be. All that has now been fixed at a stroke. I expect to see some pretty substantial CS orders in the next 18 months.

https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/17/asses ... rdier-deal
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tommy1808
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:15 am

rigo wrote:
I'll certainly be happy if this gives a future to the C-Series. BUT: what about the anti-trust regulations?


It that Marketshare blip Bombardier represents is any problem, Boeing should never have been allowed to take over McD.

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WIederling
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:16 am

crimsonchin wrote:
Lmao, I haven't read the full details of the deal, and who knows a year, 2 years, 3 years from now, it could turn out this was a shitty deal, BUT just on the surface the fact that this is a middle finger to Boeing and is already getting fanboys mad on twitter, is enough instant gratification for now.


in a rush to meet expectations shares seem to be down by $10 already :-)
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:20 am

Basically Boeing played a two high pair hand and lost on the river to a flush. They thought they were sitting pretty and got blindsided by Airbus' move.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:21 am

ytz wrote:
Exactly. The CSeries was threatening to take the company down. It's clear that Bombardier bit off more than they can chew. So now it's time to let a bigger player take this program on. Bombardier gets to go back to selling RJs, turboprops and biz jets.

BBD is still on the hook for lots of spending on CS over the next several years and now needs to ramp up two production lines so will have lots of manpower tied up in CS.

airzona11 wrote:
On the flip side, why would Airbus utilize any resources for the CS500 when they have the A320? It is either 738 or A320. You are writing as if Airbus just inherited a golden goose. The CS program has not been positive for BBD. It drove them to this deal to avoid BK. I am a BBD fan, have had family work on the assembly lines, but reality is the situation is dire for real reasons. Would love if there had been A.net back in when Boeing bought McD. This awesome 717 that beats the pants of the 736. and A318 the market is huge (or the market outgrew that segment). MD88s/Md90s to compete with the 738s/A320s... nope. MD11s will continue to be great Freighters... orders dried up within 4 years. All that was left was military builds, commercial was dead. Hopefully this is not the case, but it seems like we have seen this before.

Uhm, yes, there was an a.net when the 717 deal went down, and I was here.

I do see *some* parallels. CS is a smaller plane and is a different technology base. The people developing it have a different corporate culture/mindset than the people acquiring it. I could easily see the CS becoming "fenced off" in a similar way as was the 717. While Airbus will control CS and will be acquiring it long term, in the short term it is being made by a different company. Boeing was totally free to do whatever it wanted with 717. Airbus can call the shots but it still is being made by a different corporate entity than Airbus.

ytz wrote:
@Revelation,

For next large customer, I posit IAG. The CSeries fits well for them. Especially for Aer Lingus and British Isles flying.

Hmmm... They already have a large A3xxx portfolio including A319. For them CS will mean down-sizing and introducing an aircraft with different crewing and maintenance needs. It'll be interesting to see if they want it.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:25 am

BaconButty wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing.

And yet the claim the opposite: "Significant C Series production costs savings anticipated by leveraging Airbus’ supply chain expertise". And let's be honest, the A320 and the 737 are the two truly commoditised large jet programmes, and if anyone can drive down recurring costs it's one of the big two. And A. will be hoping for a virtuous circle I'm sure - product improvements, support and marketing driving volume which in turn drives cost reductions etc. And you could argue that Boeing's only means of competing with the C-Series (prior to going the protectionist route) was with 73% discounts.

I think this is great fun. The law of unintended consequences. I'm sure this was gamed, and the loss of the F/A 18 order was baked in, possibly some reaction from the UK. But this has been unexpected - I don't think anyone buys Enders saying that the deal was going to happen anyway. It's hard to see a US response short of full on trade war. We'll see. Interesting times.


I think you missed my point: what can Airbus do tomorrow, or next month, or even next year to help the C-Series sell better without taking away A320 profits? There is certainly lots of opportunity, and very little risk to Airbus, but I'm struggling to see how the future for the C-Series is quite as rosy as many portray.

Draken21fx wrote:
On a serious note it would be quite interesting to see how much of a budget is needed to have cockpit commonality with the A32X series.


New cockpit = new airplane with new certification.

scbriml wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?


A lot of it seems to have been down to BBD themselves - many customers lacked confidence in the manufacturer. The plane is good, very good, the issue has been how reliable BBD would be. All that has now been fixed at a stroke. I expect to see some pretty substantial CS orders in the next 18 months.

https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/17/asses ... rdier-deal


Yes, this could address concerns about Bombardier's future, provided Airbus does not prioritize the sale of its products about C-Series.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:26 am

If Airbus builds the C Series in Alabama they eat into their own market of A319 and A320. Which leads to my speculation that their narrowbodies are set to grow way above A321neo sizes. The next single aisle familiy can start bigger (like from 180 to 200 seats) and better counter the upcoming middle of the market stuff from Boeing.
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:47 am

Suuuuuuuuuuck it now Boeing. I usually love Boeing but on this they are just being asses.
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tommy1808
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:48 am

sxf24 wrote:
New cockpit = new airplane with new certification..


Nope, you don´t need to re-certify the aircraft because you change the UI. As long you don´t change the underlying aircraft, you just certify the new Cockpit. Otherwise Cockpits would never see updates. UPS is just about to change pretty much the whole cockpit avionics on their A300, and they won´t run the A300 through a new certification program for that.

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Thomas
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Draken21fx
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:52 am

tommy1808 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
New cockpit = new airplane with new certification..


Nope, you don´t need to re-certify the aircraft because you change the UI. As long you don´t change the underlying aircraft, you just certify the new Cockpit. Otherwise Cockpits would never see updates. UPS is just about to change pretty much the whole cockpit avionics on their A300, and they won´t run the A300 through a new certification program for that.

best regards
Thomas


Thank you both guys. Plus I believe the philosophy of the CS series is pretty close to the FBW logic of the A32X.
 
dodoma
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:01 pm

Can anyone give some insight on which regulatory approvals are required for this deal to go through? For sure there are some Canadian government bodies involved, but what about the EU and the US?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
New cockpit = new airplane with new certification..


Nope, you don´t need to re-certify the aircraft because you change the UI. As long you don´t change the underlying aircraft, you just certify the new Cockpit. Otherwise Cockpits would never see updates. UPS is just about to change pretty much the whole cockpit avionics on their A300, and they won´t run the A300 through a new certification program for that.

best regards
Thomas


Don't forget the ATR -600 series. The 72-500 and 72-600 are both certified as the ATR 72-212A, the -600 is just a cockpit modification (and a few other minor things).
 
caljn
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:07 pm

Boeing as a poignant metaphor for the US under Trump. The world moves on...
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:14 pm

caljn wrote:
Boeing as a poignant metaphor for the US under Trump. The world moves on...


Yes, very symbolic indeed, Canada is certainly moving on, this and CETA are strong indicators.

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