Olddog
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:54 pm

I really would like to see a comparison of the aerodynamics flows around theses two very different noses....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
PanAm788
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:55 pm

ssteve wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
For now Airbus does not have a huge incentive to invest in the CS500 (Boeing's real concern) since it would eat into A320neo sales. Even if it would be a superior aircraft on paper, the capex needed to get CS500 production on par with the well oiled machine that is A320 production would be very very high. It is a possibility down the road though and Boeing definitely doesn't like being cornered in the market which they now are. They now have to spend billions develop an NSA when Airbus got one for free. Depending on the specs of the 797 ("752" or "763") I think a partnership with Embraer to develop a 3-2 seater aircraft is a real possibility.

Loser: BBD
- BBD is all but dead and even if Airbus turns the Cseries into a massive success, they can limit BBD's upside with their call option. At best BBD will remain a small biz jet manufacturer as the CRJ and Q offers slowly dry up. Even though I think there is a great business case for a CRJneo since all other regional jet manufacturers seem to be in scope clause limbo, it's basically a pipe dream at this point. At least BBD's engineers can hold their heads high with the Cseries.


Does Airbus truly have a controlling stake? The management stays in Quebec, and the continuing funding will come from Quebec.

Certainly they can decline to assemble the putative CS500 in Mobile... but I'm not sure Airbus controls the strategy to the extent that you say here. There is also a put option.


Airbus owns 50.5% of the program. They control the what, where and when of anything that gets manufactured. The put option is to sell additional shares to Airbus. Only reason BBD would do this is if 1) it's a total failure and they want to rid themselves of it once and for all (Airbus can absorb the costs much easier) or 2) it's a success and they want to cash out (also a obviously a positive for Airbus).
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:55 pm

ytz wrote:
incitatus wrote:
What is the chance Boeing can assemble a counter offer? Airbus is for sure getting a sweet deal. BBD has an obligation to sell to the highest bidder.


Fairly sure this announcement was a closed deal.

And Boeing has poor chances of buying up business in Canada after what they did with De Havilland. Boeing would face substantially more scrutiny than Airbus.

This is the second time Boeing has stabbed Canada in the back, as far as Canadians are concerned.


Is this really such a big deal that all Canadians are up in arms? Reading your posts, you'd think Boeing filing a complaint had created an international crisis. If something this minor affects people that much, then I'm happy for them. They must have nothing worse to worry about.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:57 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Boeing guys should cherish that now they'll get to build their New Small Airplane instead of keep putting lipstick on a 1960's design.

I think that with Airbus now having 2 families of modern narrow body aircraft Boeing will not launch a further 737 refresh (MAXX?) but instead will be forced to develop a new aircraft (that combined with the simultaneous MOM program could stretch a little their engineering and/or financial assets).


When was it ever stated by anyone that Boeing was going to do a MAX refresh? I think some here are so giddy that they are creating an alternate reality or something.

Having said that, it'll be an amazing lineup with the CS100/CS300/A320/A321.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:59 pm

sxf24 wrote:
One important question that's largely been ignored is: why isn't the C-Series selling well?

Is it the technology? Airbus can't fix that.
Is it the marketing? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had a large and experienced sales and marketing team.
Is it the support? Airbus can help, but Bombardier already had an extensive support network.

some judicuous underhanded political leveraging/wrangling?
Canada has much less lever to unwork that than the EU or China.
By many accounts, it is the price. Unless you have a slam-dunk business case for a 100 seat aircraft, it is hard to compete against a larger aircraft that sells for about the same price. I fail to see how Airbus can help, in the near-term, with pricing. The proposed corporate structure doesn't enable significant subsidization o f below-cost pricing and Airbus is going to want to minimize cannibalization of its much, much, more profitable A320 family. If Airbus tries to raise the pricing of the A320 to better fit with the cost of the C-Series, it is going to drive more business to Boeing.

Strategically, there seems to be a lot of potential. Execution will be interesting.


What I read out of it Airbus sees potential for reducing cost to manufacture on the C-Series.
Much better than lifting up pricing levels.
Murphy is an optimist
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:01 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ytz wrote:
incitatus wrote:
What is the chance Boeing can assemble a counter offer? Airbus is for sure getting a sweet deal. BBD has an obligation to sell to the highest bidder.


Fairly sure this announcement was a closed deal.

And Boeing has poor chances of buying up business in Canada after what they did with De Havilland. Boeing would face substantially more scrutiny than Airbus.

This is the second time Boeing has stabbed Canada in the back, as far as Canadians are concerned.


Is this really such a big deal that all Canadians are up in arms? Reading your posts, you'd think Boeing filing a complaint had created an international crisis. If something this minor affects people that much, then I'm happy for them. They must have nothing worse to worry about.


Well, i am sure Americans would be up in arms if China or Europe put anti dumping duty on 787 for selling below cost.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:03 pm

At best BBD will remain a small biz jet manufacturer as the CRJ and Q offers slowly dry up. Even though I think there is a great business case for a CRJneo since all other regional jet manufacturers seem to be in scope clause limbo, it's basically a pipe dream at this point. At least BBD's engineers can hold their heads high with the Cseries.


Small biz jet OEM? The last decade they have been the largest or second depending on measure-revenue or units delivered. Always the largest in units delivered—180-200 per year. They have delivered more bizjets than airliners.

GF
 
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Revelation
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:05 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
For now Airbus does not have a huge incentive to invest in the CS500 (Boeing's real concern) since it would eat into A320neo sales. Even if it would be a superior aircraft on paper, the capex needed to get CS500 production on par with the well oiled machine that is A320 production would be very very high. It is a possibility down the road though and Boeing definitely doesn't like being cornered in the market which they now are. They now have to spend billions develop an NSA when Airbus got one for free. Depending on the specs of the 797 ("752" or "763") I think a partnership with Embraer to develop a 3-2 seater aircraft is a real possibility.

Yes, I think this captures a lot of what this means to Boeing.

To me there are going to be issues that need to be resolved before Airbus goes beyond CS100 and CS300.

Going all out in CS500 raises a lot of issues related to product placement, corporate structure, labor agreements, etc.

But in the end Airbus has gotten a new product handed to it for no cash down and an easy payment program moving forward.

ssteve wrote:
Does Airbus truly have a controlling stake? The management stays in Quebec, and the continuing funding will come from Quebec.

Certainly they can decline to assemble the putative CS500 in Mobile... but I'm not sure Airbus controls the strategy to the extent that you say here. There is also a put option.

While BBD has a lot of de-facto power, Airbus owns the majority of the shares (50.1%) and the majority of the board seats (4 of 7). Airbus really does control the program, IMHO.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:08 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
ytz wrote:

Fairly sure this announcement was a closed deal.

And Boeing has poor chances of buying up business in Canada after what they did with De Havilland. Boeing would face substantially more scrutiny than Airbus.

This is the second time Boeing has stabbed Canada in the back, as far as Canadians are concerned.


Is this really such a big deal that all Canadians are up in arms? Reading your posts, you'd think Boeing filing a complaint had created an international crisis. If something this minor affects people that much, then I'm happy for them. They must have nothing worse to worry about.


Well, i am sure Americans would be up in arms if China or Europe put anti dumping duty on 787 for selling below cost.
I am sure Airbus would be fine with the US government giving Boeing billions of dollars to be able to sell the 787 more cheaply.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:16 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Why would Boeing have attacked Bombardier the way Boeing did? A small competitor without money.
But Boeing used the big artillery against them. They must have known something.

The fact that they used the big artillery proves that they knew nothing. Doing just nothing would have resulted in a better outcome for Boeing. It seems they went full steam on operation "extinction" and greatly misjudged the chances of a bailout by Airbus.

I mean, I ask you what objectives Boeing was able to materialize in their fight against BBD...

- Put C-Series out of business? Failed
- Suppress a CS500? Failed (many narrowbody aircraft designs did grow 50% to 100% in capacity over their lifespan, here we are talking about a ~15% increase)
- Clear the US market from the C-Series? Failed
- Deliver Superhornets to Canada? Failed

IMHO there is not a single reason why Boeing today still could say "we did super, we draw great benefit from the case we opened against BBD!!". Not a single benefit remains. I mean, not one. Have you thought about that? Or do you see one?
Sure. There is one less player in the market today. It may not have come ideal for Boeing (I realize that might be a giant understatement), but if Boeing and Airbus no longer have to undercut prices of BBD, sale prices on narrowbodies may rise. The duopoly has its privileges.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Jetport
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:18 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
Lots of smart people have given their opinion but nonetheless here's mine. .....................................
Loser: Embraer
- Embraer must be super pissed that not only did the production costs of their biggest competitor get totally slashed overnight, but it also got taken over by one of the two largest aircraft manufacturers in the world and all the marketing and manufacturing expertise that comes with it. All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 and the smaller E2 jets can't be sold to US regionals due to scope issues. The two possible saving graces for Embraer is that Boeing will now likely be a more willing partner going forward and scope clauses changes are now more likely to be implemented now that the CRJneo possibility is dead: big for the E2-175.

Overall fascinating development. Cheers.


Why is an upgraded CRJ dead? (CRJneo). I would think dumping the C series increases the likelihood of a CRJneo.
 
PanAm788
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
At best BBD will remain a small biz jet manufacturer as the CRJ and Q offers slowly dry up. Even though I think there is a great business case for a CRJneo since all other regional jet manufacturers seem to be in scope clause limbo, it's basically a pipe dream at this point. At least BBD's engineers can hold their heads high with the Cseries.


Small biz jet OEM? The last decade they have been the largest or second depending on measure-revenue or units delivered. Always the largest in units delivered—180-200 per year. They have delivered more bizjets than airliners.

GF


Fair enough. Meant small compared with Airbus/Boeing but it's unfair to not acknowlegde their historic market share in that market (though their recent programs like Global 7000 have run into some issues).
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:23 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
I mean, I ask you what objectives Boeing was able to materialize in their fight against BBD..

- Put C-Series out of business? Failed

Not sure that was ever a realistic objective. Everything would have had to go perfectly for Boeing at an eventual WTO action, and as we've all seen, WTO's actions rarely have an impact.

- Suppress a CS500? Failed (many narrowbody aircraft designs did grow 50% to 100% in capacity over their lifespan, here we are talking about a ~15% increase)

CS500 is now more likely than before, but still has a lot of obstacles in its path. Let us know when an announcement is immanent.

- Clear the US market from the C-Series? Failed

Yes, but it seems they will at least be delayed and be less profitable because of the need to set up and certify the Mobile FAL.

- Deliver Superhornets to Canada? Failed

Clearly the SH sales were gone the minute Boeing filed the DOC action. Boeing willingly sacrificed them.

rheinwaldner wrote:
IMHO there is not a single reason why Boeing today still could say "we did super, we draw great benefit from the case we opened against BBD!!". Not a single benefit remains. I mean, not one. Have you thought about that? Or do you see one?

Driving the program into the hands of Airbus means that it didn't end up in the hands of China, which would really have destabilized the duopoly, whereas with this deal the duopoly keeps rolling. China has shown via COMAC that they're willing to spend the time and money, and getting BBD's technology would have been like pouring gasoline on a fire. I can imagine Airbus, BBD, Boeing, Europe, Canada and the US are all glad that the program didn't go to China.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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PanAm788
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:38 pm

Jetport wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Lots of smart people have given their opinion but nonetheless here's mine. .....................................
Loser: Embraer
- Embraer must be super pissed that not only did the production costs of their biggest competitor get totally slashed overnight, but it also got taken over by one of the two largest aircraft manufacturers in the world and all the marketing and manufacturing expertise that comes with it. All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 and the smaller E2 jets can't be sold to US regionals due to scope issues. The two possible saving graces for Embraer is that Boeing will now likely be a more willing partner going forward and scope clauses changes are now more likely to be implemented now that the CRJneo possibility is dead: big for the E2-175.

Overall fascinating development. Cheers.


Why is an upgraded CRJ dead? (CRJneo). I would think dumping the C series increases the likelihood of a CRJneo.


BBD has huge cash flow issues and is still busy working out kinks in its bizjet programs. In my mind, the only chance for a "CRJneo" was if they received a bunch of cash from the sale of the Cseries that they could divert to CRJneo development. They didn't get that cash so I think the prudent thing for them to do would be to exit the commercial aircraft business altogether and focus on bizjets. If scope clauses let up they will get pummeled by Embraer which means that a CRJneo is a massive risk. After this whole Cseries debacle that nearly sunk the company multiple times, I don't think that risk appetite is there.
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:51 pm

I agree with the A320.5 path...if Airbus is serious about strongly marketing the C-series, then a CS500 must eventually be built for the 150 passenger slot -- then a three-row stretch 170 passenger A320.5 and maybe a A322 for the 200+ passenger area.

If the above comes true...Boeing has to start to embrace Embraer to cover 150 passenger and below...and not just do a MOM...but start thinking about a 2030 replacement for the 737...part of the MOM family.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:56 pm

incitatus wrote:
dodoma wrote:

This is what capitalism is about. Under normal circumstances anyone can choose their business partners.


Absolutely not true. Hostile takeovers.

And what would be the reason for BBD to reject a Boeing counter-offer besides bad blood? There is none.


Just a slight corrections though. If you aggressively takeover a company you have to:
a. Have the capital to pay over the share price (sometimes by quite a margin)
b. The company has to be listed (which is the case)
c. You are acquiring all assets of the listed company (profitable or not)

Point a. is the sticking point. Also the antitrust authorities of Canada might have sth to say about the takeover ;)
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:56 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
Loser: Embraer
- All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 .


Love that.
So superior that Airbus had come to help to sell it ...
 
airzona11
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:07 pm

caljn wrote:
Boeing as a poignant metaphor for the US under Trump. The world moves on...


Why do people keep saying this? From the CEO of Airbus... they have been trying to do this since 2015... Trump was not President. They started talking this time around in August...Before the Boeing (not Trump) suit was brought. Where is "Trump" in any of this?

All the reality aside, is this not net new manufacturing jobs in the US? The political bloviating on this site is yet another reason to charge users to post.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:10 pm

Jetport wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Lots of smart people have given their opinion but nonetheless here's mine. .....................................
Loser: Embraer
- Embraer must be super pissed that not only did the production costs of their biggest competitor get totally slashed overnight, but it also got taken over by one of the two largest aircraft manufacturers in the world and all the marketing and manufacturing expertise that comes with it. All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 and the smaller E2 jets can't be sold to US regionals due to scope issues. The two possible saving graces for Embraer is that Boeing will now likely be a more willing partner going forward and scope clauses changes are now more likely to be implemented now that the CRJneo possibility is dead: big for the E2-175.

Overall fascinating development. Cheers.


Why is an upgraded CRJ dead? (CRJneo). I would think dumping the C series increases the likelihood of a CRJneo.


A 2X2 with the creature comforts and some commonality of the C-Series and improved performance would be a win. With AB on board maybe they would see it a a wise investment to help along to bundle up with the CS 100 and 300. AiInes that will operate the C Series and own their own regionals could see the commonality possibilities for moving up pilots to Main line ops.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:17 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ytz wrote:
incitatus wrote:
What is the chance Boeing can assemble a counter offer? Airbus is for sure getting a sweet deal. BBD has an obligation to sell to the highest bidder.


Fairly sure this announcement was a closed deal.

And Boeing has poor chances of buying up business in Canada after what they did with De Havilland. Boeing would face substantially more scrutiny than Airbus.

This is the second time Boeing has stabbed Canada in the back, as far as Canadians are concerned.


Is this really such a big deal that all Canadians are up in arms? Reading your posts, you'd think Boeing filing a complaint had created an international crisis. If something this minor affects people that much, then I'm happy for them. They must have nothing worse to worry about.


It's not like Bombardier is universally loved in Canada. Hardly. But Boeing played the arrogant American stereotype so well here.

1) Hid their own dumping on the United deal behind their domestic status.

2) Complained about a CS100 deal, an airplane they don't compete with at all.

3) This comes on top of them dumping De Havilland Canada after not getting sales to Air Canada, in the 80s. It was Bombardier that saved De Havilland and then proceeded to invest in the plant and make the Q400.

With all that in mind, is it really to understand why Canadians are up in arms about Boeing's behaviour. I would add, that a lot of us in uniform are not all that happy about Boeing's unsolicited bid and backroom lobbying on the Super Hornets. I, for one, am quite happy this is all blowing up in their face spectacularly. And I sincerely hope that Airbus uses the CSeries to deal some well deserved damage to Boeing in the narrow body sector.

An awesome added bonus that I am personally excited about, is that an airplane that offers improvements for economy passengers (that Boeing only brags about in brochures) is now going to get delivered in decent numbers. Airbus, government and BBD officials are saying there's a market for 6000 airframes in this segment over 20 years.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:20 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I am sure Airbus would be fine with the US government giving Boeing billions of dollars to be able to sell the 787 more cheaply.


Given that the 787 hasn't been locked out of Europe, it would indeed appear so.....
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Driving the program into the hands of Airbus means that it didn't end up in the hands of China, which would really have destabilized the duopoly, whereas with this deal the duopoly keeps rolling. China has shown via COMAC that they're willing to spend the time and money, and getting BBD's technology would have been like pouring gasoline on a fire. I can imagine Airbus, BBD, Boeing, Europe, Canada and the US are all glad that the program didn't go to China.


Really begs the question of why COMAC didn't try harder. Especially with CS fuse being made in Shenzhen.
 
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:27 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Loser: Embraer
- All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 .


Love that.
So superior that Airbus had come to help to sell it ...



Too much salt is bad for your health. And grapes are best enjoyed when they aren't sour. Good life advice.....
 
PanAm788
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:31 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Loser: Embraer
- All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 .


Love that.
So superior that Airbus had come to help to sell it ...


The biggest issue with the Cseries was price. That's a big reason why it couldn't sell (as well as an uncertain and evolving market size, a problem that Embraer also faces) and Airbus coming in solves the price issue. I'm not trashing the E2 by any means but by design (2x2 fuselage) it is less suited to take on the small narrow body role (100-150 seats). The Cseries can more economically scale up to 150 seats by virtue of having a wider cross section. The E2 simply can't do that.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:40 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
The biggest issue with the Cseries was price. That's a big reason why it couldn't sell (as well as an uncertain and evolving market size, a problem that Embraer also faces) and Airbus coming in solves the price issue. I'm not trashing the E2 by any means but by design (2x2 fuselage) it is less suited to take on the small narrow body role (100-150 seats). The Cseries can more economically scale up to 150 seats by virtue of having a wider cross section. The E2 simply can't do that.


The E2 is a warmed over E-Jet. It doesn't solve any of the issues it would have with mainline service. As you say....

Just to expand on that, 4 abreast above 100 makes for not too great turn times. And while Embraer definitely makes one of the best RJs out there, you're still left with smaller overhead bins which always cause all kinds of issues with carry-on....again impacting turn time.

Whatever disadvantages the CS100 had, the E2-190 and E2-195 have it far worse. The real MVP of that lineup is the E2-175. Small enough to pass scope.
 
cjpark
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:41 pm

ytz wrote:
Perfect analysis. It's a terrible deal for Bombardier, Canada and Quebec. But it was the best deal available. C'est la vie. There's no money in being a martyr in business.

Good on Airbus. They seized the moment. They now have a great tool to attack Boeing with. Especially if the CS500 happens. All while forcing Boeing to now consider a massive increase in development. Boeing will have to do both the NSA and the MOM now. And Airbus could bring both the CS500 and the 321 replacement to market possibly sooner than Boeing. The CS500 development costs would be peanuts for Airbus. And think of what that would do to 737-8 sales. Sometimes, hurting your competitor is just as useful as selling more.


Or…… Airbus just found the perfect way to kill the program.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
WIederling
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:48 pm

ytz wrote:
Given that the 787 hasn't been locked out of Europe, it would indeed appear so.....


Isn't there some mutual agreement about no tariffs transport class aircraft and
no crossover ExIm Bank style financing between the US and the EU around?
Murphy is an optimist
 
32andBelow
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:49 pm

It's also an airbus competitor. Why are you guys so sure AB isn't just going to shelve it.
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Some thoughts on this:

Bombardier has a elite team of engineers and designers who have without a doubt disrupted the narrow body market with an extremely advanced product. The holy grail is the technology and associated Intellectual Property from program and its future potential. Not sure who will owns the IP, but expect I fully expect it to show up in the next generation of Airbus products whether that's an advanced CS-500 or other products such as another A32X reboot. I expect more collaboration between Bombardier and Airbus future products to maximize each other's strength. Bombardier effectively becomes an engineering arm of Airbus.

With implementation of CETA and the tight rope that NAFTA is on, this forced Bombardier's hand. In order to gain market share it had to do something drastic to compete effectively in the US market. The potential downfall in this whole thing is the NAFTA renegotiation is still ongoing with the US. I am left wondering if aerospace will be become an emerging issue (country of origin for parts) based on how the US is aggressively negotiating auto parts/production as who is happen with auto production. I wouldn't be surprised if some protectionist clause pops up in NAFTA negotiations to prevent this type deal of from happening.

Regardless Boeing, and the US government just got schooled in the concept of globalization, and how little power protectionist trade policies actually have in today's global economy.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:45 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:00 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Boeing guys should cherish that now they'll get to build their New Small Airplane instead of keep putting lipstick on a 1960's design.

I think that with Airbus now having 2 families of modern narrow body aircraft Boeing will not launch a further 737 refresh (MAXX?) but instead will be forced to develop a new aircraft (that combined with the simultaneous MOM program could stretch a little their engineering and/or financial assets).


When was it ever stated by anyone that Boeing was going to do a MAX refresh? I think some here are so giddy that they are creating an alternate reality or something.

Having said that, it'll be an amazing lineup with the CS100/CS300/A320/A321.


Boeing has not announced their plans for the 737 beyond the MAX because of a little something known as the Osborne effect. If you read carefully I never claimed that they had announced a MAX refresh, my point was that a further 737 refresh is now unlikely.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8887
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:04 pm

32andBelow wrote:
It's also an airbus competitor. Why are you guys so sure AB isn't just going to shelve it.


There is no "Boeing" in their name :-)
( in hindsight would Boeing still judge recourse-less cancellation of the 717 as a good idea? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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diverdave
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:07 pm

Canada moving production to the Airbus plant in Alabama is ironic to the extreme.

Canada is not happy about the US having right to work states.

https://slate.com/business/2017/09/cana ... -laws.html

And a bunch of Canadian work just got moved to a non-union factory in a right to work state.
 
Bimboslice
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:16 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:08 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Bimboslice wrote:
As a true Canadian I'm absolutely ecstatic, let the orders roll in!
Why? I am not sure this deal is all that great for Canada.

Patience grasshopper patience :listen:
Don't argue with an idiot he'll bring you down to HIS level and beat you with experience!
 
PanAm788
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:43 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:11 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
Regardless Boeing, and the US government just got schooled in the concept of globalization, and how little power protectionist trade policies actually have in today's global economy.


How did the US government get schooled here?

Basically their complaint was "Hey BBD used a direct government injection in order to offer a product that competes with a US-made product at a price below cost. That's illegal and hurts US manufacturing."

The solution was to manufacture the products in the US that were originally going to be imported.

Boeing may have gotten schooled (though I think less severely than people on here think) but the US government more or less got an acceptable outcome.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It's also an airbus competitor. Why are you guys so sure AB isn't just going to shelve it.


There is no "Boeing" in their name :-)
( in hindsight would Boeing still judge recourse-less cancellation of the 717 as a good idea? )

I dunno what was the big advantage of the 717 over the 737-7?
 
dashdrvr
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:12 pm

ytz wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Loser: Embraer
- All of Embraer's advantages are now gone since the CSeries is likely a superior small mainline jet than the E2 .


Love that.
So superior that Airbus had come to help to sell it ...



Too much salt is bad for your health. And grapes are best enjoyed when they aren't sour. Good life advice.....


AB buys majority share in a failing company with well underperforming sales of their flagship aircraft. AB either bought to continue the line or shut it down. Time will tell. Rest assured the US government won't sit idly buy as Bombardier or AB try an end run on dumping underpriced aircraft in the US market through the front door or back door.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6942
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:15 pm

ytz wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I am sure Airbus would be fine with the US government giving Boeing billions of dollars to be able to sell the 787 more cheaply.


Given that the 787 hasn't been locked out of Europe, it would indeed appear so.....


Which is interesting in hindsight, is it not?

One thing we don't seem to have discussed is the genie that Boeing may just have let out of the bottle here, that may never get put back

Boeing clearly "dumped" hundreds of the early 787's onto the market well below the cost of production, to the tune of a C-Series dwarfing $32Bn of production costs that have had to be deferred because the sales price just didn't cover it, (with a fair amount of various government's money in the process).
They seem to have got away surprisingly scot free.
I wonder if we travelled that journey again, if the 787 would get the same easy ride it did.

More relevant perhaps, is the question of what might happen to new airliner programmes in the future.
Is this now going to be the way of things?
I'll be fascinated to see what happens when (if) the MOM goes on sale.

One other thing that doesn't seem to have got the airplay I'd expect is how the C-series offers Airbus further opportunities to "bundle" deals.

It would be fascinating, for example, to see the UA or AA A350 orders currently under scrutiny swayed by the ability to offer a comprehensive deal including the C-series. Fascinating? Hilarious given the circumstances. Highly unlikely I know.
But there may be deals which Airbus can now make more favourable with big airlines as a consequence of being able to offer the C-series
Who knows?

Rgds
 
WIederling
Posts: 8887
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:17 pm

dashdrvr wrote:
Rest assured the US government won't sit idly buy as Bombardier or AB try an end run on dumping underpriced aircraft in the US market through the front door or back door.


We are expecting nothing less.
The next hamfisted approach to influencing things.
At least it is not about strafing and bombing yet.
Murphy is an optimist
 
incitatus
Posts: 3316
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:22 pm

This deal is far from sealed. There are multiple regulatory hurdles that will have to be cleared, but it will very likely get through it. If Airbus is getting an awesome deal, it is because BBD is not getting one. BBD was pressed against the wall and settled for it could get out of Airbus.

I expect Boeing to come out and offer BBD a much better deal.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5718
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:27 pm

Oct.17 -- Patrick de Castelbajac, executive vice president at Airbus SE, explains how the company's deal to buy the majority stake in Bombardier's C Series came about. He speaks with Bloomberg's David Westin on "Bloomberg Daybreak: Americas."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWrIcr1TI5k
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:40 pm

incitatus wrote:
I expect Boeing to come out and offer BBD a much better deal.

And I expect that it is too late for any competing offers.

There is no way that Airbus would have publicly announced this unless the contracts were already in place. The delay to completion will simply be down to completing the minute details, and regulatory & organisational issues.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 3866
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:41 pm

astuteman wrote:
But there may be deals which Airbus can now make more favourable with big airlines as a consequence of being able to offer the C-series
Who knows?

Hmm, something like „buy one A380, get one CS for free“ :lol:
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:44 pm

astuteman wrote:
One thing we don't seem to have discussed is the genie that Boeing may just have let out of the bottle here, that may never get put back

Boeing clearly "dumped" hundreds of the early 787's onto the market well below the cost of production, to the tune of a C-Series dwarfing $32Bn of production costs that have had to be deferred because the sales price just didn't cover it, (with a fair amount of various government's money in the process).
They seem to have got away surprisingly scot free.

Yes but Boeing have the "get out of jail free card" of program accounting.

If it hadn't been for the Airbus takeover, I personally think that one possible solution to the tarrifs that the US wanted to impose on the C series would have been for the Canadian government to allow Bombardier to use program accounting as well.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3316
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 pm

speedbored wrote:
incitatus wrote:
I expect Boeing to come out and offer BBD a much better deal.

And I expect that it is too late for any competing offers.

There is no way that Airbus would have publicly announced this unless the contracts were already in place. The delay to completion will simply be down to completing the minute details, and regulatory & organisational issues.



There no "issues". There are approvals, and they do not have them. This is not a done deal until it has regulatory approval and is signed. Of course there is contract in place, but it is one of intent, not the transaction itself.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 pm

incitatus wrote:
If Airbus is getting an awesome deal, it is because BBD is not getting one. BBD was pressed against the wall and settled for it could get out of Airbus.


As we speak (1h30 EST), BBD share prices are up 17.37%, Airbus 4.83% and Boeing is down 0.5%.

Somehow, BBD shareholders see value in this transaction.

Probably in the capital gain that will be achieved when Airbus buys back the remaining 49.99% CSeries equity.

Or when Airbus awards new contracts to BBD Aerostructure Division (like to the Belfast plant), now that Airbus doesn't consider BBD as a competitor anymore.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 12001
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 pm

I'm liking the CSeries more already ah ah !

Airbus stock went up 4.83% today.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
Regardless Boeing, and the US government just got schooled in the concept of globalization, and how little power protectionist trade policies actually have in today's global economy.


How did the US government get schooled here?

Basically their complaint was "Hey BBD used a direct government injection in order to offer a product that competes with a US-made product at a price below cost. That's illegal and hurts US manufacturing."

The solution was to manufacture the products in the US that were originally going to be imported.

Boeing may have gotten schooled (though I think less severely than people on here think) but the US government more or less got an acceptable outcome.


Maybe the aircraft may have dumped and even then there is some question as to how much. Even so, it does it support a 300 percent tariff?

Imposing unseasonable and irrational tariffs, companies and countries can and have the ability of circumvent those duties and tariffs. The 300 percent tariff was unrealistic, BBD found a partner (a non US company) willing to work with it to ensure survival of the program and to ensure that taxpayers investment in the program will yield a return,. Yes a few jobs will end up in the states to support production of US aircraft, however in the end Boeing (and by logical extension the US government) loses market share and potentially access to billion dollars of defense contracts.

The demands being made on Canada by the US in NAFTA negotiation such as the dismantling of supply management in the dairy industry, auto parts and car manufacturing to support protectionist trade policies are considered non starters in trade negotiations. There is no tolerance for unrealistic demands, unfair and irrational tariffs on Canadian products and the Canada has the ability to partner with other countries, not just the big bully down south. This Bombardier debacle is not lost on Canadian trade negotiators, if the US imposes unreasonable demands Canada, will take its products somewhere else. CETA, Asia Pan Pacific.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6942
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:51 pm

incitatus wrote:
This deal is far from sealed. There are multiple regulatory hurdles that will have to be cleared, but it will very likely get through it. If Airbus is getting an awesome deal, it is because BBD is not getting one. BBD was pressed against the wall and settled for it could get out of Airbus.

I expect Boeing to come out and offer BBD a much better deal.


Personally I think hell will freeze over first before Boeing even get a sniff of a deal with BBD. It's just not going to happen :shakehead:

Rgds
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:58 pm

N14AZ wrote:
astuteman wrote:
But there may be deals which Airbus can now make more favourable with big airlines as a consequence of being able to offer the C-series
Who knows?

Hmm, something like „buy one A380, get one CS for free“ :lol:


You joke, but I remember International Harvester dealerships giving away Scouts with purchases of top of the line combines and cotton pickers back in the day. We went through serveral of them this way. We played real hard with them cause they were free.

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