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RushmoreAir
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:46 am

77H wrote:
Does anyone have insight on what WP's load factors have been from the time they made the switch to the Q's until this bankruptcy news broke? Not saying that LF automatically equals profitability or a return to profitability but my point is below.

I ask because I often hear from locals that we need another airline flying inter island to keep HA honest. While I agree with the sentiment, if we want a second airline (not counting MW as it does not compete on the same playing field) we have to support that second airline. Its one thing to say "we need WP to keep HA honest" and another to say "I'm going to fly/support WP to ensure they're around to keep HA honest". Unless WP Management is flushing money down the toilet over on Paiea St. I'm not sure I completely understand why WP continues to lose money if A) the market is truly large enough for two larger carriers B) if people really feel that having two larger carriers is important.


For 2Q17:

Airline .... Destination .... Avg Daily Deps ... LF
HA ......... KOA ............... 20 n/s ................. 69.4%
WP ........ KOA ................. 8 n/s ................. 67.8%
HA ......... LIH ................. 19 n/s ................. 74.5%
WP ........ LIH .................. 8 n/s .................. 65.0%
HA ......... OGG ............... 27 n/s ................ 71.9%
WP ........ OGG ............... 11 n/s ................. 60.6%

WP lags HA loads by anywhere from 2 pts on HNL-KOA to 11 pts on HNL-OGG. So obviously some factor (whether schedule density, interline partnerships, etc.) is clearly causing WP to underperform in load.
NW UA DL F9 CO WN LO QF FI AC MU CA EU LH LX DY B6 AA HA NZ MW HU U2 SK AF EK IB HX WS G4 AZ IG 4B

The views and opinions as expressed in this post are entirely my own and are not those of my employer, Hawaiian Airlines, Inc
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:49 am

I hate the LCC seats in HA's "new 712" cabin, and began flying WP more. The Q cabin is quieter, and HNL/OGG is just a few minutes longer.
 
Bazooka
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:55 am

WPvsMW wrote:
I hate the LCC seats in HA's "new 712" cabin, and began flying WP more. The Q cabin is quieter, and HNL/OGG is just a few minutes longer.

Yeah! They installed more rows/seats and charge more for the flights...SHEESH!
 
77H
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:56 am

usxguy wrote:
it wouldn't be just Delta. It would include all of their Sky Team friends as well.


Interesting point:

Should AA join the market they'd have feed from domestic AA as well as JL, JQ/QF.

Should DL join they'd have their domestic feed, DL Japan sunseeker flights as well as CI, KE, MU.

Should UA decide to enter the market they'd have feed from domestic UA, their Mid Pacific Island Hopper service, GUM, Japan sunseeker flight as well as AC, CA, NH, NZ, OZ.

AS would have numerous feed opportunities through their various codeshares.

Granted, HA and WP already codeshare or at least Interline with many of the above carriers mentioned

I remember AS used to code share with MW. Do they still with AS or anyone else?

77H
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:04 am

usxguy wrote:
One reason there are no hotels around Pearl City or west of there (( except for the tourist joints at Ko Olina)) (and there SHOULD be, but that would require innovation) -- people feel like that the current market has everything taken care of, but let me tell you - if someone built a Fairfield Inn/Holiday Inn Express/Courtyard type hotel near Waipahu or Pearl City, the thing would be full EVERY NIGHT.


You mean like the Hampton Inn in Kapolei?
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:05 pm

Didn't realize that was done. Last I heard construction was to start in 2016.
xx
 
F9Animal
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:14 pm

LAXintl wrote:
You guys are nuts if you think AAG is going to come set up shop in Hawaii with QX Q400s. QX has enough current trouble with its flying with a whopping 10% if its fall schedule canceled to ship pilots off to Hawaii.
Also longer term, AAG is returning 15 Q400s to lessors in 2018.


It was just an idea. I would rather see the airline survive, but it doesn't look good at all right now. I would think Alaska would benefit if they came in and took over so to speak. It would be awesome to see Alaska grow more in Hawaii.

It's just sad to see Island Air in this predicament. They haven't made any payments for the Q400's. That just seems like some really poor management moves to me. They should have never gotten rid of the ATR, especially if they knew the financial prospect would be so challenging. Who goes and gets new planes and doesn't make their payments on them? I wonder if someone was dipping into the cookie jar?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:58 pm

WP has made a/c lease payments... just not recently. :) Likewise payments to other creditors. IMO the issue was the WP business plan scope was too broad... competing state-wide with HA. Setting up stations in LIH and OGG, then KOA is where the money went. Were I the route planner (as I once was, but not for WP), I would have started with a base of HNL/OGG shuttle, and then add "long haul" ... triangle routes that HA does not serve: HNL/HNM/MUE/HNL and reverse, HNL/MKK/JHM/HNL and reverse, HNL/JHM/LNY/HNL and reverse, etc. A possible next step would have been turbofans for HNL to LIH, KOA, and ITO, but the niche was (and still is) a short-field, twin turboprop service. Maybe Transair should put some seat pallets in its Shorts. http://transairhawaii.com/
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:07 pm

WPvsMW, the problem with what you suggest is a few items:

-JHM can't handle the Q400
-HNM/MUE don't have TSA. Q400 is too large to fly non-sterile. And there's also no way for the Q400 to maneuver at HNM.

If I were in charge of Planning/Rev Mgt at Island Air:

-> get rid of the stupid bag fees for locals for 1st bag or carry-on. Show your State of Hawai'i ID and you get 1 free carry-on/gate check OR checked bag.
-> reduced bag fees for kama'aina as well
-> focus on SPAs with the other airlines and push interline traffic on certain flights using proper yield management tools.
-> RON 1 Q400 at OGG and KOA, either as a satellite crew base or bite the bullet & pay for hotel rooms. The morning flights from HNL are typically the weakest to make the AM flights out of KOA/OGG. LIH seems to do well, oddly.
-> Keep fares only $5-$10 lower than Hawaiian. No need to start a fare war. Don't overly discount.
-> Join PreCheck
-> offer flexible change option at time of booking, similar to Virgin America
xx
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:13 pm

I didn't say use a Q, I said use a short-field, twin turboprop, and suggested the Shorts (nka Bombardier SD3-60-300). The Q would work for the HNL/OGG shuttle, but not for the short fields... so go with a single type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Brothers
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:47 pm

Hana's terminal is super cute though. Its like a 20 x 20 structure with a bathroom.

MUE looks like its stuck in the 1950s, seriously. The floors & seats are meticulously clean. You don't even need a mirror, just look down at the floor.
xx
 
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haynflyer
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:51 am

As a life long Hawaii resident, I have to think that 77H hit the nail on the head. With direct service to the islands of Kauai, Maui, and Hawaii; there is no need for a second major inter-island carrier. History keeps repeating itself but some people continue to think otherwise and invariably fail.

I don't have any evidence aside from common sense and personal experience to back up what I about to say, but I think a significant portion of inter-island traffic is due to overflow from HA itself. As an example, sometimes the only way for me to get to HNL from the continental US is to fly LAX-OGG-HNL because all the direct LAX-HNL flights are full or at an inconvenient time. Likewise, many outbound passengers from Maui, Kauai, and Hawaii sometimes need to fly through HNL to get out of the state as well. So just because HA flies a gaggle of seats inter-island doesn't mean that those passengers are up for grabs by a new entrant to the market and I think that is a flaw many people make looking just at the seat count.

Just my $0.02
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:39 am

usxguy wrote:
Didn't realize that was done. Last I heard construction was to start in 2016.


I have a relative who stayed there in December 2016.

WPvsMW wrote:
Maybe Transair should put some seat pallets in its Shorts. http://transairhawaii.com/


They did. Air tours and charter flights are available under the name Interisland Airways. http://www.iflyinterisland.com
 
Bazooka
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:42 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Bazooka wrote:
HA's 717's engines are in the same boat. They are no different than the CFMs. They require a 3 minute cool down period too.


The issue is not cool-down after landing, but cool-down after takeoff. Required cool-down after landing varies by how much reverse thrust was used, and can be 1 minute if no reverse thrust was used.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/276907-c ... -time.html
http://www.b737.org.uk/cfm56_soi.htm

Cool-down after take-off is very different, and specifically whether 8 min. or so at FL220 (if that high) HNL/OGG is enough to thermostabilize the hot core on repeated turns. It's not. KH flies a cargo sked that avoids the cumulative effects that caused AQ to drop the 733 and revert to 732s.

The BR715 engines in HA's 712s are more like the JT8Ds... but I've heard that hot start events in the 712s are not ... rare.


Doesn't make any sense! Aren't the engines cooling down when you descend at IDLE? Short cruise segment then your gliding all the way to the airport...
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:25 am

The idle (there's still some thrust... have the keep the core spinning) period isn't long enough HNL/OGG on CFM56. Moreover, AQ opted not to do a long idle to cool 733s or 734s into KOA, LIH, or ITO... would have lost the turns race with HA's 9s. AQ reverted to 732s.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:35 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Maybe Transair should put some seat pallets in its Shorts. http://transairhawaii.com/


They did. Air tours and charter flights are available under the name Interisland Airways. http://www.iflyinterisland.com


I wish T were more interested in scheduled operations. Now's the chance.
 
routeplanner
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:07 am

WPvsMW wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Maybe Transair should put some seat pallets in its Shorts. http://transairhawaii.com/


They did. Air tours and charter flights are available under the name Interisland Airways. http://www.iflyinterisland.com


I wish T were more interested in scheduled operations. Now's the chance.



If WP should fail, now would be a chance for anyone interested to actually start an inter-island operation. Transair probably would not have adequate equipment to stage any sort of scheduled ops, without acquiring additional aircraft, and they would need to operate as a scheduled charter operator as their certificate does not allow scheduled ops. That being said, I doubt really any of the majors today would be interested in placing resources out there for this type of operation, or they would have already taken a dip into it. WP has had a difficult time for years, much of it having to do with aircraft issues.

Really the only other carrier that comes to mind for an inter island prop operation is Silver Airways. With WP teatering and Their order for those new ATRs I would assume it probably has their executive staff in Florida brainstorming a Hawaii operation.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:18 am

Wow... 3M starting scheduled HI interisland ops. Never crossed my mind. 3M would be uniquely qualified with tropical interisland ops, that's for sure. Extensive FL to Bahamas network. WP will fight hard to stay in business, of course.... but perhaps WP and 3M should be talking... let the Qs go back to the lessors. WP's real assets are their in-state brand recognition and station staff. Only cargo guys know about Transair.
 
ridgid727
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:08 pm

3M would be logical, but why would they need to buy anything that WP has? If they were going to start a HI operation, they really wouldn't need their certificate or anything like that would they?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:07 pm

Island air already flew the Saab under a wet lease. The aircraft obviously wasn't big enough.
 
ridgid727
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:40 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Island air already flew the Saab under a wet lease. The aircraft obviously wasn't big enough.


3M has ordered 20 new ATR42-600 Deliveries start in January.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:19 pm

Any news or updates yet on Island? Wouldn't the airline be smart to find some used Dash 8's, buy them outright, and not have to worry about lease payments? I couldn't imagine trying to run an airline with all leases. It's a do or die situation.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:34 pm

ridgid727 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Island air already flew the Saab under a wet lease. The aircraft obviously wasn't big enough.


3M has ordered 20 new ATR42-600 Deliveries start in January.

I would I assume those would be immediately deployed on their existing routes that need. E boost
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:13 pm

I wonder if Alaska might consider investing in them via Horizon? With Horizon's Q400 experience and Alaska's extant ground operations in Hawai'i they could probably cut most of Island Air's overhead and run with just fight crew and mx staff. Horizon could absorb the administrative and training needs without flinching, probably, and save those costs. Also gives them a carrot to dangle to potential pilots: you can go to Hawai'i for a couple years and transfer to the mainland if you don't like. Not sure if there's any benefit to Horizon for having an island home for their Q's as they switch over to the E175. Meanwhile Alaska, which lives and dies by its loyalty program, gets deeply connected in to the local market, which it may need as UA and WN make big moves. It also gets the option to sell multi-island itineraries, and could probably provide enough feed to re-open some of the smaller destinations like Molokai and Hilo.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:23 pm

Court case update: After hearings, judge has issued standard orders re: agreements with credit card companies, use of cash for payroll and other operating expenses. The next big hearing is Friday on the leases of the three remaining a/c (Wells Fargo, lessor).

Buying used a/c takes cash, which the debtor lacks.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm

QX can't come into Hawai'i -- they are having severe staffing issues. I believe QX flying had to cancel almost 14% of their Q400 flying in the next 90 days to cover the shortfall.
xx
 
mcg
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:40 pm

Tailwinds wrote:
I wonder if Alaska might consider investing in them via Horizon? With Horizon's Q400 experience and Alaska's extant ground operations in Hawai'i they could probably cut most of Island Air's overhead and run with just fight crew and mx staff. Horizon could absorb the administrative and training needs without flinching, probably, and save those costs. Also gives them a carrot to dangle to potential pilots: you can go to Hawai'i for a couple years and transfer to the mainland if you don't like. Not sure if there's any benefit to Horizon for having an island home for their Q's as they switch over to the E175. Meanwhile Alaska, which lives and dies by its loyalty program, gets deeply connected in to the local market, which it may need as UA and WN make big moves. It also gets the option to sell multi-island itineraries, and could probably provide enough feed to re-open some of the smaller destinations like Molokai and Hilo.


It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to invest in a business that loses money at an astonishing rate. Most of all Alaska Airlines.
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:25 pm

mcg wrote:
It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to invest in a business that loses money at an astonishing rate. Most of all Alaska Airlines.


They didn't buy Virgin because Virgin made great money, they bought them because with Virgin's assets they could grow in to something better than either could be individually. Same here. Can Alaska bring something to Island Air that would help with revenue, like code shares and international partners? Probably. Can they help lower costs at Island air by eliminating a lot of duplicated overhead like admin and executive staff? Most definitely. Is that enough to make it a viable airline again? Who knows!

The most important thing in Alaska's survival guide is loyalty, and the mileage program does that. If Island Air comes with a local group of loyalists that can be brought in to that, that alone might be worth it for Alaska. If it prevents a competitor from doing the same, that might be worth it as well. Hawaii is about to be a blood bath with HA, AS, UA, and WN all going at it, local feed and loyalty might be a big deal in that battle.
 
mcg
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:50 pm

Tailwinds wrote:
mcg wrote:
It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to invest in a business that loses money at an astonishing rate. Most of all Alaska Airlines.


They didn't buy Virgin because Virgin made great money, they bought them because with Virgin's assets they could grow in to something better than either could be individually. Same here. Can Alaska bring something to Island Air that would help with revenue, like code shares and international partners? Probably. Can they help lower costs at Island air by eliminating a lot of duplicated overhead like admin and executive staff? Most definitely. Is that enough to make it a viable airline again? Who knows!

The most important thing in Alaska's survival guide is loyalty, and the mileage program does that. If Island Air comes with a local group of loyalists that can be brought in to that, that alone might be worth it for Alaska. If it prevents a competitor from doing the same, that might be worth it as well. Hawaii is about to be a blood bath with HA, AS, UA, and WN all going at it, local feed and loyalty might be a big deal in that battle.


that 's an interesting post, thanks. I guess I don't see any 'hard assets' at Island Air that have any value; the airplanes and real estate are all leased. The employees could all be hired by AS (or anyone else) and incorporated into an inter-island strategy (for the record, in many cases the employees are the big losers here, I hope for the best for them). That leaves the customers and their loyalty as an asset, I'm not sure customer loyalty is worth very much. It wasn't enough to make Island Air viable and is centered around the fact that the typical Island Air ticket is $10 less than the competition. If AS wants to do inter-island Hawaii it would be better to simply offer Hawaii based customers some sort of bonus into AS's frequent flyer plan and work from there.

Island Air is bankrupt for a reason and the reason is that it can't make any money, in my opinion there isn't anything there worth buying.
 
obelau24
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:14 pm

I find this whole story sad but not particularly surprising. I was offered a management job at WP earlier this year and after a lot of thought and reflection passed on it. I'm thanking my lucky stars now. What I did take away from the process though was what a remarkable group of people were at thee helm of the airline: senior management were all extremely experienced, friendly, down-to-earth folks who really seemed to care about the airline and every single one of them was excited as a school child at recess at where the airline was going to go. The Q400 was supposed to be the saving grace - I was told it shaved off 32 minutes from an OGG round trip over the ATR - plus their new Amadeus system - which they're rolling over now - was going to be much more user-friendly and allow for closer partnerships with other carriers. They had just opened LIH, were opening KOA sand planning ITO by next year. Plus they were already planning a move to the Interisland terminal (which now I guess is a no-go, they're building the commuter terminal by gate 6?). There was a sense of sincere joy and pride as I walked through the corporate offices, but a poster earlier compared WP's headquarters with Mokulele and there's a very stark difference.

I can't help but feel WP is too top-heavy, regardless of how awesome all those people are, with too many overhead expenses. The face-to-face side of the airline is great - the back offices don't need to be elaborate and plush. I've long dreamt about a merger between MW and WP - MW being such a lean airline who does their thing SO well could probably do wonders with larger aircraft but with their low overhead. Granted they'd need to learn how to interline and codeshare but WP knows how to do that.

At the end of the day, HA absolutely needs a competitor in the marketplace. They are not a charity and will keep prices inflated if there are no consequences. I hope WP gets through this struggle because I do think they are vital to the islands.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:48 pm

Certainly interisland competition is welcome here, but it doesn't help that WP's transition of their corporate account res systems is DOA. Alot of emails about the transition, then as of today, you land on a blank screen. My impression is that management is stretched too thin, has poor prioritization, and/or has poor tools. Based on ATR loads, modeling the P&L if Qs were leased is not rocket science. WP should have stayed at 2 city pairs. Rather than go to 3 city pairs (much less adding HNL/ITO), if you're sinking in red ink at 2 city pairs, go to a single city pair... become a shuttle. Stage lengths HNL/LIH are too long vs. the 712s. The way to profitability was HNL/OGG.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 am

Update: WP has Amadeus up and running... including corporate accounts.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:04 am

It doesn't look like they've paid their AirRM bill though; inventory seems to be "generic" regardless of pax loads.

26OCT THU HNL/HST KOA/HST‡0
1WP 86 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 122P 217P DH4 0 XJ AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8
2WP 84 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 1200N 1253P DH4 0 AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8
3WP 96 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 403P 452P DH4 0 AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8
4WP 82 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 924A 1014A DH4 0 AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8
5WP 92 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 815A 901A DH4 0 AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8
6WP 260 Y8 O8 H8 B8 Q8 K8 T8*HNLKOA 647P 734P DH4 0 AT /E
M8 N8 G8 V8 U8 L8 S8

unless the flights are *that* wide open; and they are selling cheapest fare to capture $$$.
xx
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:11 am

I noticed that too... all seats at lowest fare from tomorrow on.
New article (free with reg.) reports lessor claims (i) WP has "improper operations"... whatever that means, and (ii) hasn't been paid since July.
https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/new ... fleet.html
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:15 am

Even when we were "desperate" at -another airline- with the E170s, we kept our fares just a hair lower than what the other guys were selling. We never did a fire sale to fill them up.

I will bet you the credit card / merchant account is holding back almost everything except for what is flown daily. Which has got to hurt. And another reason you shouldn't be selling your seats *** THAT *** cheap; you just can't move the needle that much on interisland traffic. In order to stimulate traffic on inter-island Hawai'i, you have to make these cheapo seats available a week out, not next day. Otherwise you are just giving away money.

Hawaiian is selling the 5A departures, HNL-OGG for example, at $71 but the rest are all $94 - $125ish. If I were the pricing / revenue guy at Island Air, i'd be at $89 on the flights. That extra $18 means a lot. On a $71 ticket, $4.10 is a ZP segment fee, $5.60 TSA/AY fee, and then 7.5% to the feds. So you are only taking in $50ish bucks for that seat. The extra $18 can really help in this matter.

*sigh*
xx
 
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RWA380
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:23 am

There are at least 8 open seats on every flight, not too bad. They have just opened up availability to each fare inventory. One day prior to departure they are trying to capture any revenue they can most likely.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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usxguy
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Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:24 am

well its also not working; Sabre autopricing is coming back UC status. So, like I said, their RM is down and/or having AVS issues.

01Y1«
1 WP 441Y 26OCT Q OGGHNL SS1 516P 553P /DCWP /E.
WPNCB«
BASE FARE TAXES/FEES/CHARGES TOTAL
1- USD68.19 14.81XT USD83.00ADT
XT 5.11US 4.10ZP 5.60AY
68.19 14.81 83.00TTL
ADT-01 L
OGG WP HNL68.19USD68.19END ZPOGG
NON REF/CHG FEE APPLIES
VALIDATING CARRIER - WP
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WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:00 am

As of a 25 Oct. 2017 Order, the bankruptcy case is official with the first meeting of creditors and debtor set for 17 Nov. However, the a/c lessor has filed motions for relief from automatic stay... IOW, they want the three Qs returned immediately. 17 consecutive quarterly losses .... unless a white knight appears, it's just a matter of time. WP took a $3.2 mln expense for early termination of the ATR leases.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/honolul ... 0183391078
 
Parzival1988
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:18 pm

Bankruptcy hearing was supposed to be today. Any news on this?
 
Bazooka
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:01 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I hate the LCC seats in HA's "new 712" cabin, and began flying WP more. The Q cabin is quieter, and HNL/OGG is just a few minutes longer.

Yes! More seats, more crammed inside the cabin, and more expensive flights! No room for carry on's because nobody wants to pay $25 to check your bag in. $25 fee for bags inter-island and $25 for bags to the U.S. mainland...SHEESH! Rip off the locals!
 
Bazooka
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:01 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:56 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Bazooka wrote:
HA's 717's engines are in the same boat. They are no different than the CFMs. They require a 3 minute cool down period too.


The issue is not cool-down after landing, but cool-down after takeoff. Required cool-down after landing varies by how much reverse thrust was used, and can be 1 minute if no reverse thrust was used.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/276907-c ... -time.html
http://www.b737.org.uk/cfm56_soi.htm

Cool-down after take-off is very different, and specifically whether 8 min. or so at FL220 (if that high) HNL/OGG is enough to thermostabilize the hot core on repeated turns. It's not. KH flies a cargo sked that avoids the cumulative effects that caused AQ to drop the 733 and revert to 732s.

The BR715 engines in HA's 712s are more like the JT8Ds... but I've heard that hot start events in the 712s are not ... rare.


Not true! Back when Aloha flew the 300's, the CFM-56's were new technology and overhaul them were expensive. Now, 30 years later, the CFM's are a proven engine and the cost for overhauling them have gone down and more places to have them serviced too...Don't tell me LUV doesn't know who to overhaul these engines, they've been flying the 300's for the past 30+ years.
 
RushmoreAir
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:29 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:32 am

... and they're finished. RIP Island Air

"Island Air tells employees it will halt service Friday"
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday
NW UA DL F9 CO WN LO QF FI AC MU CA EU LH LX DY B6 AA HA NZ MW HU U2 SK AF EK IB HX WS G4 AZ IG 4B

The views and opinions as expressed in this post are entirely my own and are not those of my employer, Hawaiian Airlines, Inc
 
717atOGG
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:36 am

RushmoreAir wrote:
... and they're finished. RIP Island Air

"Island Air tells employees it will halt service Friday"
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday

That's very unfortunate. They kept fares honest on interisland routes. I was actually considering flying them this summer on a day trip to HNL when I was in Maui. I wish I had now. :crying:
A320/321, A332, 712, 73G/8/9ER, 744, 752/3, E145, E175
 
77H
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:13 am

RushmoreAir wrote:
... and they're finished. RIP Island Air

"Island Air tells employees it will halt service Friday"
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday


Best of luck to all the staff at WP! It is heartbreaking to see so many people out of work.

It will be interesting to see how MW responds in the coming months. Given the success of their current operation and the strength of the Company's Leadership Team I would expect MW to take advantage of this unfortunate loss. Perhaps an order of newer ATR42's for trunk routes? Perhaps even CR7's or E-Jets 2.0?

Could also be a chance for AS or UA to move in with Regional Jets and solidify their presence prior to WN's entrance in to the Mainland-Hawaii Market. Rumors have been swirling that they may be looking at inter island routes.

77H
 
KayserSoze
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:21 am

Island Air CEO tells employees airline will halt services Friday.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday
 
ridgid727
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:58 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:26 am

77H wrote:
RushmoreAir wrote:
... and they're finished. RIP Island Air

"Island Air tells employees it will halt service Friday"
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday


Best of luck to all the staff at WP! It is heartbreaking to see so many people out of work.

It will be interesting to see how MW responds in the coming months. Given the success of their current operation and the strength of the Company's Leadership Team I would expect MW to take advantage of this unfortunate loss. Perhaps an order of newer ATR42's for trunk routes? Perhaps even CR7's or E-Jets 2.0?

Could also be a chance for AS or UA to move in with Regional Jets and solidify their presence prior to WN's entrance in to the Mainland-Hawaii Market. Rumors have been swirling that they may be looking at inter island routes.

77H


I wonder if MW is considering Empire operating on their behalf, then again there may be a non compete clause as they are operating Ohana for HA
 
User avatar
KanaHawaii
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:43 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:31 am

Just like it couldn't shrink to profitability, the airline also could not expand to profitability. I would surmise with the news of the airline folding that the DNA of the airline itself was flawed. They never seemed to be able to get enough financial credit to grow operations and let revenue pay the credit bills back. Even the investors that came in - Jeffrey Au and Co, had enough credit to moderately expand the airline, but with the new planes, new reservation system, and expanding the workforce by double, it seemed too much at the end.

Prediction at this point: Now that Island Air is out of business, expect the state to move quickly to move MW to a temporary terminal as they do not need TSA screening and watch the demolition crews come in bump bump to take down the old Commuter Terminal. Then expect (I know, wishful thinking) an expedited build out of the Mauka Extension to the Interisland Terminal. It does not have to be the full buildout of the terminal before Southwest announces first flights. And now I would fully expect them to seriously consider the interisland market as part of their entry of service.
 
RushmoreAir
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:29 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:17 am

It seems that HA is honoring WP tickets on a standby basis, at least for the next week, with the option to book a discounted confirmed ticket as well.

https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/Island ... mmodations

"Hawaiian Airlines is working quickly to provide flight relief for travelers who have been displaced by the shutdown of Island Air operations. Starting Nov. 11 through 17, Island Air guests holding a confirmed reservation to/from/via Honolulu, Oʻahu (HNL); Kahului, Maui (OGG); Kona, Hawai‘i Island (KOA); and Līhu‘e, Kaua‘i (LIH) can standby for Coach Class seating on Hawaiian’s regularly scheduled flights between the same origin and destination cities on the ticketed day of departure."
NW UA DL F9 CO WN LO QF FI AC MU CA EU LH LX DY B6 AA HA NZ MW HU U2 SK AF EK IB HX WS G4 AZ IG 4B

The views and opinions as expressed in this post are entirely my own and are not those of my employer, Hawaiian Airlines, Inc
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:19 am

77H wrote:
RushmoreAir wrote:
... and they're finished. RIP Island Air

"Island Air tells employees it will halt service Friday"
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3680 ... ice-friday


Best of luck to all the staff at WP! It is heartbreaking to see so many people out of work.

It will be interesting to see how MW responds in the coming months. Given the success of their current operation and the strength of the Company's Leadership Team I would expect MW to take advantage of this unfortunate loss. Perhaps an order of newer ATR42's for trunk routes? Perhaps even CR7's or E-Jets 2.0?

Could also be a chance for AS or UA to move in with Regional Jets and solidify their presence prior to WN's entrance in to the Mainland-Hawaii Market. Rumors have been swirling that they may be looking at inter island routes.

77H


MW should respond by doing nothing. Flying CR7s or E-jets would put them in bankruptcy.
 
obelau24
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:00 am

Re: Island Air files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:30 am

I am very sad to hear this news as I was hoping against all hope. I have a lot of friends there and I know they have an amazing group of people working there. Fortunately, there are a ton of jobs for the taking in all industries so shouldn’t be too hard to get back on their feet.

On another topic, work is going full steam ahead on a commuter terminal next to gate 6 - who’s going in there, just MW? Is it too late just to make that an extension of the terminal to accommodate jets and set up MW somewhere else as another poster mentioned? Although if history is destined to repeat itself, it’s probably best to build for the future as there is sure to be another interisland start-up in our future - it’s inevitable. Either that or MW will grow into larger planes organically and need more space themselves.

Mixed feelings here because it’s sad to see WP go but now it opens a whole new world of possibilities.

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