USAOZ
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how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:34 am

Many QF aircraft seem to sit at LAX after arriving from OZ at 0600-0630 til around 2200-2355 when they return to OZ, everyday. Some maintenance is done at this time, however, it seems a lot of hours everyday, for expensive aircraft to be sitting around doing SFA. Similarly for daily SYD/SFO/SYD flights.

Similar with VA B777-300ER's although note that to squeeze more productive time out of their small longhaul fleet of 5 x B777's, VA are operating a midday departure out of LAX to BNE at least one day a week in peak DEC-JAN season, which arrives BNE 2030+1, rather than the standard 2230 out of LAX to arrive BNE around 0700+2.

+ FJ have managed to squeeze another NAN/SFO/NAN in peak DEC-JAN season, out of their even smaller long haul fleet of 3 x A332's + 1 x A333. The extra flight departs NAN at 0700 Tuesdays, arrives SFO 2030 Mondays & turns around & 90 minutes later, is heading back to NAN.

+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.

Know QF used to operate a midday LAX/SYD at one stage, which presumeably was dropped due to it not being popular.

Surely, with all the talk of a possible BNE/ORD nonstop with the B787's, a better option would be to do OZ/LAX/ORD similar to BNE/LAX/JFK, where QF passengers effectively hub at LAX.
 
learjet1969
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:55 am

Actually most of these aircraft are highly utilized. For example, a typical NZ 77W routing is LAX-AKL-MEL-AKL-LAX with Maint. done on the turn at LAX. Not dissimilar to a domestic airline doing maint. overnight at a hub like DFW, it just happens during the day for transpac.
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:08 am

learjet1969 wrote:
Actually most of these aircraft are highly utilized. For example, a typical NZ 77W routing is LAX-AKL-MEL-AKL-LAX with Maint. done on the turn at LAX. Not dissimilar to a domestic airline doing maint. overnight at a hub like DFW, it just happens during the day for transpac.
so every QF aircraft at LAX for 15-18 hours everyday ? Know little about MX requirements, but that sounds excessive for simply MX requirements.

NZ aircraft do sit at LAX less than QF & VA aircraft, with flights arriving from AKL between around 1030 & 1400 & departing LAX between 2050 & 2150, that's still around 10-11 hours at LAX on average EVERY SINGLE DAY !!!

Obviously SYD curfew of 2300-0600 is a nightmare for airline ops, as any nonstop flight cannot depart LAX for SYD between around 1300 & 2200 depending on time of year(with daylight saving time etc.), although there is some dispensation for arrivals before 0600.

Looking at FJ schedule in early JAN which is one of their busiest times of the year

NAN/LAX 2140/1125
LAX/NAN 2230/0600+2

so every single day one of only 4 X A330's sits at LAX for 11 hours. Realistically with LAX being so busy, anything less than a 2 hour turnaround is probably unrealistic, but that still leaves a lot of hours everyday of every week. A 1330 departure out of LAX could arrive at 2100+1 or by tweeking the schedule of that aircraft which believe flies SYD/NAN, then sits at NAN for 3 hours, which seems excessive. Surely at their home port of NAN, where they have complete control, they could turn the aircraft in 90 mins, as they do at SFO, then they could arrive LAX at 1000 instead of 1125 & depart LAX for NAN at 1200 arriving back at NAN at 1900. The aircraft couldn't continue onto SYD due to curfew, but it could continue onto BNE or MEL, replacing a B737 that flies to MEL daily in the evenings & BNE twice a week around same time.
Last edited by USAOZ on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
qf002
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:17 am

QF has a substantial maintenance operation at LAX - https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... ty-at-lax/

Just because aircraft are sitting out in the open doesn't mean that they aren't undergoing work.
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:27 am

qf002 wrote:
QF has a substantial maintenance operation at LAX - https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... ty-at-lax/

Just because aircraft are sitting out in the open doesn't mean that they aren't undergoing work.

of course, but is approx 15 hours of maintenance required every single day for every single aircraft ? If just talking flights from BNE, SYD & MEL currently, that's a B744ER & 2 A380's. The B744 will be replaced next year by a B787 which will continue on LAX/JFK daily & the A380 MEL/LAX will also be replaced by a B787.

Surely with some of this "spare" time, QF could reintroduce LAX/AKL/LAX which I think AA are dropping or additional flights somewhere else, without any need for more aircraft, just better utilisation of existing fleet.
 
zkncj
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 am

+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.


NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
 
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EK413
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:09 am

USAOZ wrote:
qf002 wrote:
QF has a substantial maintenance operation at LAX - https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... ty-at-lax/

Just because aircraft are sitting out in the open doesn't mean that they aren't undergoing work.

of course, but is approx 15 hours of maintenance required every single day for every single aircraft ? If just talking flights from BNE, SYD & MEL currently, that's a B744ER & 2 A380's. The B744 will be replaced next year by a B787 which will continue on LAX/JFK daily & the A380 MEL/LAX will also be replaced by a B787.

Surely with some of this "spare" time, QF could reintroduce LAX/AKL/LAX which I think AA are dropping or additional flights somewhere else, without any need for more aircraft, just better utilisation of existing fleet.


You forgetting the ground time is used to increase frame utilisation. The B747 via SYD onward to JNB/SFO/HKG/HND/SCL & A380 rotate via MEL/SYD onward to DXB-LHR allowing QF to minimise ground time & maximise frame utilisation.

EK413
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USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:37 am

zkncj wrote:
+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.


NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:02 am

Why can't QF introduce evening departure from Australia to LAX to increase utilisation on at least one route? It would also allow full days work in Oz?
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:05 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
Why can't QF introduce evening departure from Australia to LAX to increase utilisation on at least one route? It would also allow full days work in Oz?


They will be doing that with QF95/96 MEL-LAX for NS18

QF095 MEL2140 – 1900LAX 789
QF096 LAX2355 – 0825+2MEL 789
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iahcsr
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:06 am

USAOZ wrote:
zkncj wrote:
+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.


NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.

I would think that if another profitable option was available that aircraft would not be siting there. As is it’s cheaper for it to sit than to use it.
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USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:15 am

iahcsr wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
zkncj wrote:

NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.

I would think that if another profitable option was available that aircraft would not be siting there. As is it’s cheaper for it to sit than to use it.
I think maybe you might think airline decision makers are brighter than they really are
 
lhrsfosyd
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:51 am

You can kill two birds with one stone and offer SYD-LAX-LHR-SIN-SYD with evening departure of SYD and SYD-SIN-LHR-LAX-SYD with a bit of ground time at LHR.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:54 am

USAOZ wrote:
zkncj wrote:
+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.


NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.



You should stop in GRU in the noon time. You will find 4-5 AA birds, 4 UA, 4-5 DL, 1-2 LH, 1 AC and many other with something between 8-12 parking hours every day.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:07 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
You can kill two birds with one stone and offer SYD-LAX-LHR-SIN-SYD with evening departure of SYD and SYD-SIN-LHR-LAX-SYD with a bit of ground time at LHR.

A good way to burn money without real competition especially on LAX-LHR market which is already full of competition. And it's not like they're not making good money using their current schedule. In fact they did this to maximise the onward connection opportunities within the USA.

Plus, where can you find another slot pair at LHR (QF doesn't have any spare ones; their surplus ones are leased out) and why SYD originated pax would wanna take a much larger detour to LHR (compared to SYD-Asia/ME-LHR and AKL-LAX-LHR) with all the hassles that US immigration brings? It's not like SYD-LHR does not have enough competition already as well.

Michael
 
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EK413
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:15 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
You can kill two birds with one stone and offer SYD-LAX-LHR-SIN-SYD with evening departure of SYD and SYD-SIN-LHR-LAX-SYD with a bit of ground time at LHR.


So I take it planes fix them selves up?!? Sufficient ground time means maintenance which equates to minimising the probility of an aircraft going AOG.

EK413
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qf002
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:21 am

USAOZ wrote:
of course, but is approx 15 hours of maintenance required every single day for every single aircraft ?


Firstly, that 15 hours includes time at the terminal, moving around the airport etc. It would be more like 10 hours actually on the stand or in the hangar (and probably one 8 hour shift of work actually being done).

Secondly, it's not "every single day for every single aircraft". Only 2 of QF's A380s visit LAX on any particular day which means that, on average, each frame visits LAX 1.7 times per week allowing for ~15 hours of work to be done per frame per week if we assume 8-10 hours work is done each day. The 744 continues onto JFK and does not stay at LAX during the day.

QF has tried many different schedules over the years including later departures from Australia and earlier departures from LAX and they have not been popular with the travelling public. They are adding an evening MEL-LAX next year but that is driven by the new MEL-PER-LHR schedule and is widely considered to be a placeholder ahead of MEL-DFW launching when the AA JV is approved.

QF works very hard to maximise utilisation across their network. If they could find a better way of doing it and get more out of their aircraft then they would have done it by now.
 
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chepos
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:14 pm

USAOZ wrote:
qf002 wrote:
QF has a substantial maintenance operation at LAX - https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... ty-at-lax/

Just because aircraft are sitting out in the open doesn't mean that they aren't undergoing work.

of course, but is approx 15 hours of maintenance required every single day for every single aircraft ? If just talking flights from BNE, SYD & MEL currently, that's a B744ER & 2 A380's. The B744 will be replaced next year by a B787 which will continue on LAX/JFK daily & the A380 MEL/LAX will also be replaced by a B787.

Surely with some of this "spare" time, QF could reintroduce LAX/AKL/LAX which I think AA are dropping or additional flights somewhere else, without any need for more aircraft, just better utilisation of existing fleet.


LAX AKL on AA is seasonal, if the JV is approved I doubt QF would want to also introduce a LAX AKL flight.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:39 pm

His topic comes up frequently. I think it is because the QF airplanes are out in an open area all day. They aren't the worst for long ground times. UA has its brand new 77W sit for 21 hours overnight in PEK. The ground time in China for UA are some of the longest in the industry waiting 18-21 hours due to connecting banks in SFO. Perhaps people don't notice since it is PEK and the planes are there overnight.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:39 pm

It seems this is just the price of doing business flying in or out of SYD. QF planes sit at LHR for much of each day as well in order to juggle the SYD curfew, LHR curfew plus convenient travel times for the passengers who pay the most money. It works great as long as the competition are doing the same, if however an alternative route opens up that is more efficient you've got a problem.
 
BENAir01
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Yeah this is not an LAX specific thing for OZ airlines. As mentioned, look at any US Airline in GRU/GIG/ SCL/EZE. Look at JNB. Look at DL, AA and UA in HKG or UA in PEK and PVG. Hell, look at Ukraine International Airlines at JFK, sittting daily from 1400 till 0030, that’s 10 and a half hours (admittedly that’s because of slots)
It’s in order to make connecting banks or because that’s the schedule the customer wants. So what if you eliminate 5 hours of ground time, if your plane is empty. It’s more important to fill a plane then to eliminate a little bit of ground time.
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
sw733
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:18 pm

qf789 wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Why can't QF introduce evening departure from Australia to LAX to increase utilisation on at least one route? It would also allow full days work in Oz?


They will be doing that with QF95/96 MEL-LAX for NS18

QF095 MEL2140 – 1900LAX 789
QF096 LAX2355 – 0825+2MEL 789


As someone who ends in in MEL several times each year for work, this is such a perfect flight. I can wrap up work at 4pm on Friday, grab a couple of beers at The Alehouse Project and a nice glass of whisky at Whisky & Alement, and hop a taxi/uber to the airport. Absolutely brilliant instead of waiting until Saturday morning to fly home.
 
winGl3t
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:22 pm

GRU and JNB also gets multiple planes from american and europeans carriers parked during the day. AA is even building a 100 million dollars hangar in GRU to do maintenaince during long ground times.
Airlines schedule this way as high-yield business passengers prefer to fly overnight and not lose a productive day onboard, also provide better connectivity on their bank.

Another popular case is FI, which also sits its aircrafts during 20+ hours on many US stations waiting the right time to hit the European bank in KEF. Pretty common in the industry
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:27 pm

iahcsr wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
zkncj wrote:

NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.

I would think that if another profitable option was available that aircraft would not be siting there. As is it’s cheaper for it to sit than to use it.


Exactly... when it makes sense, the aircraft is deployed rather than just sit there. e.g. NZ LAX-LHR-LAX or QF LAX-JFK-LAX
If there are no other opportunity, you park the aircraft.

Another thing people aren't thinking through is crew schedule. If QF introduces a midday departure from LAX, they'd have to station 1.5 extra flight deck and cabin crew at LAX (NZ will only need 1 extra crew because they have existing midday departure to LHR). That's not cheap. Unless there is overwhelming front cabin revenue opportunity, it's cheaper to schedule the extra flight to depart at night with the other existing flights to keep flight crew rest time and schedule identical.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:57 pm

The Qantas A380 fleet are flown pretty hard with high utilisation. When they are running SYD-HKG with the 380 the fleet is operating 12/12 without a single spare on the ground or undergoing maintenance. Those longish layovers are essential for maintaining operational reliability in those circumstances. Instead of looking at the ground time think about the air time, the aircraft spend upwards of 21 or 22 hours in the suele during a 24 hour block when doing the LHR turns.

The aircraft rotate through the system like this:

QF1 SYD-DXB-LHR
(6 hours in LHR)
QF10 LHR-DXB-MEL
(2 hours in MEL)
QF9 MEL-DXB-LHR
(7 hours in LHR)
QF2 LHR-DXB-SYD
(5 hours in SYD)
QF11 SYD-LAX
(16 hours in LAX)
QF94 LAX-MEL
(2 hours in MEL)
QF93 MEL-LAX
(15 hours in LAX)
QF12 LAX-SYD
(8 hours in SYD until QF1)

As I said at certain times of the year 12/12 aircraft are scheduled so there is no slack in the fleet to add LAX-LHR or anything like that even if there was a market for it. There is no way you could recreate that schedule factoring in LHR slots and Sydney curfew to add, in effect, an extra line of flying without some truly horrendous schedules like after midnight arrivals.

As to why the carriers traditionally prefer to arrive in LAX in the morning instead of the evening, that is pretty simple. Evening arrivals only really work for LAX O&D and some west coast connections, no one wants to catch a red-eye to ORD after getting off a 14 hour flight. Therefore when an evening arrival has been offered it has always been the second frequency to be added (and the first to be cut).
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cloudboy
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:06 pm

I am sure this has been discussed in another thread, but would it be [possible for QF to basically contract out the aircraft to a partner, say AA, who could then either operate it themselves, or contract the flying to QF even, for a flight to JFK or MIA? Agreed it is a lot of lift, but it might be more profitable than letting it sit there unused.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:57 pm

qf002 wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
of course, but is approx 15 hours of maintenance required every single day for every single aircraft ?


Firstly, that 15 hours includes time at the terminal, moving around the airport etc. It would be more like 10 hours actually on the stand or in the hangar (and probably one 8 hour shift of work actually being done).

Secondly, it's not "every single day for every single aircraft". Only 2 of QF's A380s visit LAX on any particular day which means that, on average, each frame visits LAX 1.7 times per week allowing for ~15 hours of work to be done per frame per week if we assume 8-10 hours work is done each day. The 744 continues onto JFK and does not stay at LAX during the day.

QF has tried many different schedules over the years including later departures from Australia and earlier departures from LAX and they have not been popular with the travelling public. They are adding an evening MEL-LAX next year but that is driven by the new MEL-PER-LHR schedule and is widely considered to be a placeholder ahead of MEL-DFW launching when the AA JV is approved.

QF works very hard to maximise utilisation across their network. If they could find a better way of doing it and get more out of their aircraft then they would have done it by now.
very different world now, to when QF last did a midday departure LAX/SYD. Look at the Wow/Norwegian/Icelandair impact across the Atlantic. Huge. Hardly think the rocket scientists at QF are at the top of the game. Get the impression, with the massive worldwide recession, that many punters are sick of paying a premium just to fly the likes of QF. Nothing special about QF. Airlines will continue falling over like bowling pins in next 12 months. Legacy airlines have to work smarter to try to counter the LCC's & ULCC's.
 
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JBusworth
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:35 pm

As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
 
NichCage
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:04 am

So I guess there is benefits for long ground times. Qantas also has a maintenance hanger in LAX so it makes sense.

There are some places where it seems like long ground times are bad. For example, BA, VS, AF, LH, LX, TK, etc have long ground times in JNB, They arrive early in the morning and depart in the evening. The same could be said for SA to Europe. There two daily flights from JNB to LHR depart at night and arrive in the morning, to depart at night and arrive the following morning. FRA and MUC are late night departures that sit on the ground all day in Germany before flying home to JNB at night.

Also, it seems like KLM has shorter ground times compared to most airlines. There flights to JNB, CPT depart and arrive in the morning. HKG, BKK are evening flights and are not overnight compared to other airlines to those cities.
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:35 am

NichCage wrote:
So I guess there is benefits for long ground times. Qantas also has a maintenance hanger in LAX so it makes sense.

There are some places where it seems like long ground times are bad. For example, BA, VS, AF, LH, LX, TK, etc have long ground times in JNB, They arrive early in the morning and depart in the evening. The same could be said for SA to Europe. There two daily flights from JNB to LHR depart at night and arrive in the morning, to depart at night and arrive the following morning. FRA and MUC are late night departures that sit on the ground all day in Germany before flying home to JNB at night.

Also, it seems like KLM has shorter ground times compared to most airlines. There flights to JNB, CPT depart and arrive in the morning. HKG, BKK are evening flights and are not overnight compared to other airlines to those cities.
do any LCC's or ULCC's with new & expensive fleets, leave aircraft parked for long periods ? (know Allegiant used to park many of their mad dogs on tuesdays, as quietest day of the week)

If you paying a leasing fee by the month, not by the hour, you ideally want to fly the aircraft as many hours as possible, even if some of those hours are not consumer friendly.

Just noticed Southwest selling LAX/DEN in January for $27 U.S. which is incredibly cheap, but looking closer, there seem to be lots of seats, but only on late flight which departs LAX at 2135 & arrives DEN at 0050+1. Considering how long the flight is & that fare includes 2 or 3 checked bags & a drink/snack it's a great response to Spirit & Frontier airlines low lead in fares, which include not much except air. It's also using their exist fleet to the (almost max). Presume that aircraft would then sit at DEN til 0500 or later, as don't think DEN has any red eyes to east coast.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:36 am

JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
so you're suggesting that every aircraft that is at LAX for 15 hours or so, requires 8 hours or so maintenance, every single day ? Find that hard to believe. Thought newer aircraft had longer gaps for maintenance requirements ?
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:36 am

USAOZ wrote:
JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
so you're suggesting that every aircraft that is at LAX for 15 hours or so, requires 8 hours or so maintenance, every single day ? Find that hard to believe. Thought newer aircraft had longer gaps for maintenance requirements ?


It's planned maintenance, some of the A388's are pushing 10 years old. Certain parts need replacing every so many cycles/hours and unlike a car cannot be fixed in a few hours. A well maintained fleet is one that gets maintained in a regular basis.
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Cubsrule
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:39 am

qf789 wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
so you're suggesting that every aircraft that is at LAX for 15 hours or so, requires 8 hours or so maintenance, every single day ? Find that hard to believe. Thought newer aircraft had longer gaps for maintenance requirements ?


It's planned maintenance, some of the A388's are pushing 10 years old. Certain parts need replacing every so many cycles/hours and unlike a car cannot be fixed in a few hours. A well maintained fleet is one that gets maintained in a regular basis.


I imagine in addition to planned maintenance, there may also be planned deep(er) cabin cleaning and perhaps also working on deferred but not planned maintenance items. There are a lot of “convenience items” that can be addressed on long layovers in addition to planned maintenance.
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:59 am

USAOZ wrote:
NichCage wrote:
So I guess there is benefits for long ground times. Qantas also has a maintenance hanger in LAX so it makes sense.

There are some places where it seems like long ground times are bad. For example, BA, VS, AF, LH, LX, TK, etc have long ground times in JNB, They arrive early in the morning and depart in the evening. The same could be said for SA to Europe. There two daily flights from JNB to LHR depart at night and arrive in the morning, to depart at night and arrive the following morning. FRA and MUC are late night departures that sit on the ground all day in Germany before flying home to JNB at night.

Also, it seems like KLM has shorter ground times compared to most airlines. There flights to JNB, CPT depart and arrive in the morning. HKG, BKK are evening flights and are not overnight compared to other airlines to those cities.
do any LCC's or ULCC's with new & expensive fleets, leave aircraft parked for long periods ? (know Allegiant used to park many of their mad dogs on tuesdays, as quietest day of the week)

If you paying a leasing fee by the month, not by the hour, you ideally want to fly the aircraft as many hours as possible, even if some of those hours are not consumer friendly.

Just noticed Southwest selling LAX/DEN in January for $27 U.S. which is incredibly cheap, but looking closer, there seem to be lots of seats, but only on late flight which departs LAX at 2135 & arrives DEN at 0050+1. Considering how long the flight is & that fare includes 2 or 3 checked bags & a drink/snack it's a great response to Spirit & Frontier airlines low lead in fares, which include not much except air. It's also using their exist fleet to the (almost max). Presume that aircraft would then sit at DEN til 0500 or later, as don't think DEN has any red eyes to east coast.



Why would you fly an aircraft when the hours aren't consumer friendly? That translates to unprofitable flying. Markets like US-OZ, US-South America, Europe-South Africa are all markets where consumers heavily prefer certain times. There's a reason that basically every large carrier in this market is ok with parking their aircraft for hours and hours. Its what the markets prefer.

You keep citing ULCCs and LCCs like Norwegian but the legacies have comparable schedules on the long haul routes Norwegian flies (mainly Europe-US).

For QF specifically, as another poster pointed out, the extended ground time in LAX gives them a chance to do maintenance on an aircraft that will then go on to fly for days straight without a MX layover. And yes, constant maintenance is necessary for airlines like QF and VA who rely on these aircraft to consistently and reliably perform 12-16 hour missions back to back.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:22 am

NYCVIE wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
NichCage wrote:
So I guess there is benefits for long ground times. Qantas also has a maintenance hanger in LAX so it makes sense.

There are some places where it seems like long ground times are bad. For example, BA, VS, AF, LH, LX, TK, etc have long ground times in JNB, They arrive early in the morning and depart in the evening. The same could be said for SA to Europe. There two daily flights from JNB to LHR depart at night and arrive in the morning, to depart at night and arrive the following morning. FRA and MUC are late night departures that sit on the ground all day in Germany before flying home to JNB at night.

Also, it seems like KLM has shorter ground times compared to most airlines. There flights to JNB, CPT depart and arrive in the morning. HKG, BKK are evening flights and are not overnight compared to other airlines to those cities.
do any LCC's or ULCC's with new & expensive fleets, leave aircraft parked for long periods ? (know Allegiant used to park many of their mad dogs on tuesdays, as quietest day of the week)

If you paying a leasing fee by the month, not by the hour, you ideally want to fly the aircraft as many hours as possible, even if some of those hours are not consumer friendly.

Just noticed Southwest selling LAX/DEN in January for $27 U.S. which is incredibly cheap, but looking closer, there seem to be lots of seats, but only on late flight which departs LAX at 2135 & arrives DEN at 0050+1. Considering how long the flight is & that fare includes 2 or 3 checked bags & a drink/snack it's a great response to Spirit & Frontier airlines low lead in fares, which include not much except air. It's also using their exist fleet to the (almost max). Presume that aircraft would then sit at DEN til 0500 or later, as don't think DEN has any red eyes to east coast.



Why would you fly an aircraft when the hours aren't consumer friendly? That translates to unprofitable flying. Markets like US-OZ, US-South America, Europe-South Africa are all markets where consumers heavily prefer certain times. There's a reason that basically every large carrier in this market is ok with parking their aircraft for hours and hours. Its what the markets prefer.

You keep citing ULCCs and LCCs like Norwegian but the legacies have comparable schedules on the long haul routes Norwegian flies (mainly Europe-US).

For QF specifically, as another poster pointed out, the extended ground time in LAX gives them a chance to do maintenance on an aircraft that will then go on to fly for days straight without a MX layover. And yes, constant maintenance is necessary for airlines like QF and VA who rely on these aircraft to consistently and reliably perform 12-16 hour missions back to back.
not all airlines US-OZ park their aircraft on west coast all day. VA as mentioned above, fly LAX/BNE at 12noon on Saturdays. the aircraft must come in from SYD or MEL arriving earlier am that day.

+ FJ have put on an extra flight in DEC-JAN when they found some spare hours. The Tuesday NAN/SFO @ 0700 flight might be considered not at a consumer friendly time, but it connects with MEL/NAN & from a quick look at fiji air website, the extra flights appear to be full, or at least FJ are not giving away seats on these flights.

Never suggested that QF & other should turn their aircraft around at LAX fast everyday, but maybe once or twice a week in busy peak period like Xmas, when there's money to be made.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:30 am

In addition to maintenance, I can tell you the planes sitting at LAX make for convenient site shoots for numerous film, tv, web, corporate video projects. Do the airlines make a lot more money carting folks overseas, you betcha, but if the opportunity presents itself, then so be it.
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:34 am

USAOZ wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
do any LCC's or ULCC's with new & expensive fleets, leave aircraft parked for long periods ? (know Allegiant used to park many of their mad dogs on tuesdays, as quietest day of the week)

If you paying a leasing fee by the month, not by the hour, you ideally want to fly the aircraft as many hours as possible, even if some of those hours are not consumer friendly.

Just noticed Southwest selling LAX/DEN in January for $27 U.S. which is incredibly cheap, but looking closer, there seem to be lots of seats, but only on late flight which departs LAX at 2135 & arrives DEN at 0050+1. Considering how long the flight is & that fare includes 2 or 3 checked bags & a drink/snack it's a great response to Spirit & Frontier airlines low lead in fares, which include not much except air. It's also using their exist fleet to the (almost max). Presume that aircraft would then sit at DEN til 0500 or later, as don't think DEN has any red eyes to east coast.



Why would you fly an aircraft when the hours aren't consumer friendly? That translates to unprofitable flying. Markets like US-OZ, US-South America, Europe-South Africa are all markets where consumers heavily prefer certain times. There's a reason that basically every large carrier in this market is ok with parking their aircraft for hours and hours. Its what the markets prefer.

You keep citing ULCCs and LCCs like Norwegian but the legacies have comparable schedules on the long haul routes Norwegian flies (mainly Europe-US).

For QF specifically, as another poster pointed out, the extended ground time in LAX gives them a chance to do maintenance on an aircraft that will then go on to fly for days straight without a MX layover. And yes, constant maintenance is necessary for airlines like QF and VA who rely on these aircraft to consistently and reliably perform 12-16 hour missions back to back.
not all airlines US-OZ park their aircraft on west coast all day. VA as mentioned above, fly LAX/BNE at 12noon on Saturdays. the aircraft must come in from SYD or MEL arriving earlier am that day.

+ FJ have put on an extra flight in DEC-JAN when they found some spare hours. The Tuesday NAN/SFO @ 0700 flight might be considered not at a consumer friendly time, but it connects with MEL/NAN & from a quick look at fiji air website, the extra flights appear to be full, or at least FJ are not giving away seats on these flights.

Never suggested that QF & other should turn their aircraft around at LAX fast everyday, but maybe once or twice a week in busy peak period like Xmas, when there's money to be made.


But money maybe made, but yields could be higher. Not to mention the business traveller likes a regular schedule. And the QF one seems well suited to the business traveller. QF obviously feel there is a premium to fly at the times they do, otherwise they would shift their schedule around. I’m not sure LAX-NAN-MEL is an equivalent market to LAX/SFO-BNE/SYD/MEL, FJ is in a different niche.

QF do ramp up services in peak periods, and drop them in low season. As seen by their 789 schedule into LAX next year.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:06 am

USAOZ wrote:
zkncj wrote:
+ NZ must also have quite a few B777's & B787's sitting at LAX & SFO all day "sunbaking" & paying parking fees.


NZ only has 1x 777 daily that spends the day at LAX as NZ1/2 travel onto LHR. NZ 5 arrives 11:40am then departs again at 10:30pm as NZ5. With SFO NZ8 arrives at Midday and then departs again at 8:45pm.

But as mentioned once the aircraft from IAH,LAX,SFO,YVR,EZE all arrive back into AKL early morning they are all going on an return trip by 9am to BNE,SYD,MEL,RAR,NAN.
my mistake, but still 1 B777 sits all day, everyday, year round doing SFA, except accruing parking fees.


What exactly is US equivalent of an SFA? If it like a line check/A check?
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:38 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:

What exactly is US equivalent of an SFA? If it like a line check/A check?


Bless you.

SFA = Sweet [email protected]@@ All
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redroo
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:55 am

The qantas schedule is designed around their Australian customers and the challenges of flying long sectors day in and day out across many time zones.

For LHR you either leave in the morning and spend the whole day in the air to arrive in the evening. Or you fly overnight and sleep the whole way. Business prefers the night flight.

LAX is similar. You can leave Australia at various times but coming back it has to be a night flight. Again why waste a day when you can finish work on Friday in USA and fly overnight to get home.

No serious high yielding qantas corporate flier is going to want to stay Friday night in LAX and catch the morning flight back to Sydney. They wouldn't get anytime with their family before they're back at work on Monday.

And like qf789 says they've made use of the natural downtime the fleet has in LAX to keep those aircraft in tip top shape.
 
Obzerva
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:07 am

Let’s not forget one of the key reasons for the departure times ex the west coast of US, is so the maximum number of connections can be picked up from the east coast, Canada and Mexico, arrival time in to AU is early morning, again allowing maximum connections to the rest of AU.

Similarly the mid late morning allows connections out of AU, and maximises connections in the US upon its arrival.

All 5 airlines flying US west coast to AU east coast, and AC for that matter, do this because they want the maximum bums on seats.

Any other flight time is if an airline can get away with it, eg QF as the market leader, because it can, and VA’s to BNE, to increase aircraft utilisation, and even the latter is relatively new brought in for when they recommenced MEL-LAX
 
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MoKa777
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:35 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:

What exactly is US equivalent of an SFA? If it like a line check/A check?


Bless you.

SFA = Sweet [email protected]@@ All


I too wondered what SFA stands for... LOL
Thanks RyanairGuru and luv2cattlecall
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planemanofnz
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:53 am

USAOZ wrote:
Surely, with all the talk of a possible BNE/ORD nonstop with the B787's, a better option would be to do OZ/LAX/ORD similar to BNE/LAX/JFK, where QF passengers effectively hub at LAX.

If there is slack ex-LAX in the fleet, I do not think that LAX - ORD would be the best use of a frame - if anything, LAX - YYZ, LAX - YUL or LAX - MEX, with local traffic rights, would make more sense (but I do think that these are unlikely).

In particular:

- LAX - MEX may make sense, as MEX (a hot and high airport) is unlikely able to be reached non-stop from Australia (though, AA offer connections)
- LAX - YUL may also make sense, as AA do not fly LAX - YUL, and AC only operate "same flight number" services from YVR and YYZ to Australia

Aside from LAX - JFK, QF has also operated other tags to its United States flights in the past, such as HNL - YVR and SFO - YVR (though, whether with local traffic rights, I do not know).

JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there

I appreciate that scheduling may make it impossible to arrange maintenance anywhere other than LAX, but surely it would be significantly cheaper for QF to arrange for this in one of its Asian ports, instead?

Cheers,

C.
 
airbazar
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:53 am

EK413 wrote:
So I take it planes fix them selves up?!? Sufficient ground time means maintenance which equates to minimising the probility of an aircraft going AOG.

No but these aircraft are rarely in maintenance. If maintenance was required that often, every airline would be parking their aircraft for 15 hours a day, and Airbus/Boeing would be writing a lot of checks for aircraft not meeting their reliability promises.
The aircraft are not parked because of maintenance requirements. They are parked because of schedule requirements. That is the nature of long haul, north-south routes. SA does the same thing in Europe. Most European and American carriers who fly to S.America also park their aircraft down there for as much as 12-14 hours, every day. Even QF's DFW flight sits on the ground for 8 hours.
 
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:43 pm

USAOZ wrote:
JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
so you're suggesting that every aircraft that is at LAX for 15 hours or so, requires 8 hours or so maintenance, every single day ? Find that hard to believe. Thought newer aircraft had longer gaps for maintenance requirements ?


Bro, for the love of God, drop it. This is the operational friendly schedule that can be run with curfews, needing overall maintenance, etc. No, every plane doesn't need 8 hours of maintenance every single day.

It works well this way or they wouldn't be doing it. As others have stated, other airlines do the same thing in other parts of the world. The people in charge at Qantas certainly know more than you do about having the planes spend half the day at LAX.
Whatever
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:37 pm

One thing to note is that VA's once per week BNE-LAX off-time turn is pretty consistently not just the cheapest flight between BNE and LAX, but the cheapest of pretty much any airline between Australia and LAX. That's because it connects with almost nothing at either end of the route.

Flying evening departures northbound and morning departures southbound does help increase utilisation when dove-tailed with a standard schedule, no-one can deny that. But if you can't fill those planes or at least can't at a valuable yield then there is no point flying. And, of course, you would need to find some slack somewhere else in the schedule to conduct routine maintenance which can be done during the unproductive downtime.

I think the mistake you are making is that you look at once a week frequency with VA or seasonal additions with FJ and think, look how smart they are to maximise utilisation! In reality both have tiny long haul fleets of 4 A330s (FJ) or 5 777s (VA) so are therefore stretched incredibly thin, and both operate at some of the lowest yields to the South Pacific. Hardly a model anyone would want to emulate.
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qantas747
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:08 pm

I do like the idea of a PM departure ex AU and a lunchtime departure ex the US, so perhaps its something QF might try in coming years. For maintenance, with 12 aircraft in the fleet, 2 are on the ground every day, so each week there is enough slack for all to rotate through simple maintenance one a week.

I think of narrowbodies overnighting in the major AU cities. They are on the ground doing not much for 8-10 hrs.l and nobody bats an eyelid as most people are sleeping.
Ifnyour average utilisation of an aircraft is 12-14hrs a day, I would say thats a pretty good use of an asset.

As an aside, QF could run daily ex DFW-BNE/MEL on 789s using only 3 frames if they alternated departures.

0900/0830 MEL-DFW-BNE 1230-1930+1
2130/2000 BNE-DFW-MEL 2200-0600+2

Great for utilisation and provides a variety of times but a late PM departure ex AU wont connect to much beyond DFW so its pointless.

O/D destinations such as SFO can maintain the later departures as they are less reliant on connections on the USA end.
Longer term with a subsequent order of lets say 10 more 789s you could see.

BNE-LAX-JFK (2)
BNE-ORD3pw/MEL4pw-DFW (2)
SFO-MEL-PER-LHR (4)
SFO-SYD-PER-CDG (4)
SYD-DFW (2)
YVR-SYD-SCL(2)
SEA-SYD-JNB (2)

AA picks up the second MEL-LAX
789s eventually take over the 388 on SYD-DFW.
388s continue on LAX-SYD and MEL.
Outside of the 4 388s used to SIN/LHR
HKG goes daily 388 ex SYD to HKG/HND

Ah its late and Im rambling. Moral of the story. Airlines could have their planes run 20hrs a day but you need to match pax demand to fill the aircraft
 
Gemuser
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:02 pm

I do like the idea of a PM departure ex AU and a lunchtime departure ex the US, so perhaps its something QF might try in coming years.

QF ran a 13:00 or there about from LAX for many years QF8. It was rarely daily & was always first chopped if there was a problem or traffic as weak. It definitely was flying 1995 & was gone by 2001.
It w a great flight for traffic destined for Sydney, leave LAX at lunch time, day light most of the way, especially in summer and arrive SYD about 20:45, the next day, out of he airport by 21;15 or so and home by 22;00. The problems however should be obvious: limited connections at LAX, NO connections at SYD and it took a work day to fly. So that's why it does not exist today, not enough premium traffic wants to use it!

Gemuser
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:40 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
USAOZ wrote:
JBusworth wrote:
As has been widely mentioned the long layover is for maintence as there isn't really any other suitable space in the schedule for it. Qantas also owns a maintainace hanger in LAX so it can't be took expletive to keep the plane there
so you're suggesting that every aircraft that is at LAX for 15 hours or so, requires 8 hours or so maintenance, every single day ? Find that hard to believe. Thought newer aircraft had longer gaps for maintenance requirements ?


Bro, for the love of God, drop it. This is the operational friendly schedule that can be run with curfews, needing overall maintenance, etc. No, every plane doesn't need 8 hours of maintenance every single day.

It works well this way or they wouldn't be doing it. As others have stated, other airlines do the same thing in other parts of the world. The people in charge at Qantas certainly know more than you do about having the planes spend half the day at LAX.

Qantas ? Know what they are doing ? Doubt it. They are followers.
 
USAOZ
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Re: how many hours QF/VA aircraft parked at LAX not maintenance ?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:55 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
One thing to note is that VA's once per week BNE-LAX off-time turn is pretty consistently not just the cheapest flight between BNE and LAX, but the cheapest of pretty much any airline between Australia and LAX. That's because it connects with almost nothing at either end of the route.

Flying evening departures northbound and morning departures southbound does help increase utilisation when dove-tailed with a standard schedule, no-one can deny that. But if you can't fill those planes or at least can't at a valuable yield then there is no point flying. And, of course, you would need to find some slack somewhere else in the schedule to conduct routine maintenance which can be done during the unproductive downtime.

I think the mistake you are making is that you look at once a week frequency with VA or seasonal additions with FJ and think, look how smart they are to maximise utilisation! In reality both have tiny long haul fleets of 4 A330s (FJ) or 5 777s (VA) so are therefore stretched incredibly thin, and both operate at some of the lowest yields to the South Pacific. Hardly a model anyone would want to emulate.
think the extra VA midday flights LAX/BNE only operate in DEC-JAN when flights are full.

Maybe you're not aware, but Australian summer school holidays this year run from 17NOV to around 1FEB & it might be the only time long haul divisions make any money.

If you have a small long haul fleet & all your flights OZ/USA over this school holiday period & look like being overbooked much of the time, you would look to see how you could put on extra flights, either by:

1) bringing in another aircraft, probably on an ACMI basis, but lose some control which might weaken the brand,

OR

2) wet or dry lease another aircraft

OR

3) find some time when aircraft is parked that could be suitable.

NOTE: no curfew at BNE or MEL. I'm not sure what times customs immigration operates at LAX but it must be from 6am to very early am.

If VA & FJ are doing it & there flights appear very full(hard to know exactly) why don't QF & NZ etc. ?

QF was always considered a very inefficient operation.Hell it used to be run by the govt. More recently, Qantas has become much more efficient, so maybe they should have put on extra summer school holiday flights & maybe a midday flight could have worked, even as a foil for other airlines. For some strange reason QF is almost always the most expensive nonstop airline OZ/USA & VA generally cheaper. FJ/NZ are usually cheaper again but some flights are only direct & many 1 stop.

Southwest has some incredibly cheap fares. Look at LAX/DEN 9JAN. From $27 U.S. but you have to fly at 2135 & arrive well after midnight. Do some pax choose Southwest rather than Spirit/Frontier ? Probably. Point is, QF risks losing market share to likes of VA(& NZ/FJ), by not having additional flights, when they could probably squeeze some in, over busy DEC-JAN period.

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