Is there any particular reason that DFW, ORD, MIA, PHL, and PHX all have BA 744 service, but CLT does not? LGA and DCA are the only other AA hubs without a BA 744, but the reason for that is fairly obvious.

British Airways doesn't even serve Charlotte. I believe American serves the CLT-LHR with 14 weekly flights.

While there are some routes that both AA and BA fly (like PHL-LHR) AA can handle CLT-LHR on it's own. No need for BA in CLT.

BA does not fly to CLT. If they did, it would most likely be served with the 787, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

That's probably because British Airways fly to all those aforementioned airports but don't fly to CLT hence why you don't see the airlines 747's and to be honest you probably won't do in the foreseeable future.

Also LAX is a AA hub but BA doesn't fly a 744 there

Darklord1 wrote:

Also LAX is a AA hub but BA doesn't fly a 744 there

As in the past, BA will fly 1x daily 747 to LAX (BA283/282) during the winter timetable. So LAX does get the BA 747!

The BA772 has high/heat t/o problems at PHX.

Since the original premise of the thread "CLT only Int'l AA hub without BA 744 service?" isn't accurate as BA does not serve CLT, I have updated the title to remove 744. Please continue the discussion to discuss why BA does not serve CLT in general, regardless of type. Otherwise, the thread will have to be locked if it's based on incorrect information.

✈️ atcsundevil

I'm surprised nobody's stated the obvious yet, but CLT hasn't been an AA hub for very long, or a One World hub to begin until the merger a few years back. I would think hubs of a particular alliance have more international traffic from airlines of that alliance, and this is often the case. Didn't Alitalia and Air France leave EWR after the UA-CO merger? A lot of that connecting traffic goes away when airports go through merger swaps, presumably. And vice versa.

If it mattered that much to them, why has BA announced service to cities like Nashville and MSY as opposed to creating service to a (new) One World hub like CLT?

DTW doesn't have BA service either, and is a pretty busy airport; it's also a Sky-Team hub though.

But of course, Phoenix is on the same boat (plane?) and they have BA service (and on a 747), as do other intermediate cities.

Perhaps another reason why BA does not serve Charlotte is that the metro area has a relatively small population compared to other AA hub cities.

AA and BA have a TATL Joint Venture. There's really no need for them to fly there when AA has it covered.

If CLT growsx then maybe we'll see more AA flights or a BA flight even.

BoeingGuy wrote:

Didn't BA previously serve CLT? I thought I recall that.

Yes. It ended in 2002 I believe.

Antarius wrote:

AA and BA have a TATL Joint Venture. There's really no need for them to fly there when AA has it covered.

If CLT growsx then maybe we'll see more AA flights or a BA flight even.

AA has already added a second daily flight since the merger. Due to LHR slot constraints, you will see upguaging before you will see any additional frequencies.

With the exception of BA's 788s, their fleet is probably too premium heavy for the CLT market.

No one would care about CLT if it wasn’t a hub. What even is there

Full circle. BA & US were once partners and I believe BA served CLT to LGW back in the day as part of their partnership. Wasn't this in the mid 90s?

CarlosSi wrote:

I'm surprised nobody's stated the obvious yet, but CLT hasn't been an AA hub for very long, or a One World hub to begin until the merger a few years back. I would think hubs of a particular alliance have more international traffic from airlines of that alliance, and this is often the case. Didn't Alitalia and Air France leave EWR after the UA-CO merger? A lot of that connecting traffic goes away when airports go through merger swaps, presumably. And vice versa.

If it mattered that much to them, why has BA announced service to cities like Nashville and MSY as opposed to creating service to a (new) One World hub like CLT?

DTW doesn't have BA service either, and is a pretty busy airport; it's also a Sky-Team hub though.

But of course, Phoenix is on the same boat (plane?) and they have BA service (and on a 747), as do other intermediate cities.

Because PHL and PHX are just as new as CLT is to the OneWorld network, yet the former two have BA Service. Not stating a case for BA to fly there when AA could probably handle this one on it's own, but the excuse of CLT being new to the AA/OneWorld network isn't totally valid IMO.

If you listen to any of the AA executive talk about US to London flying, the metal is irrelevant. The JV serves CLT, PHL, MIA, JFK, PHX, LAX, DFW, and ORD to LHR. BA gains no benefits by starting CLT-LHR if the 2 frequencies that AA currently flies are enough for the demand.

Philadelphia has had BA service for the bette part of 40 or 50 years because it's the 5th largest US city and smack in the middle of one of the most populated and wealthiest areas of the country. The businesses that are in Philadelphia and its suburbs, primarily pharmaceuticals, drive lots of the premium purchased fares to and from LHR and beyond, while the large numbers of residents in the area fly in the back as tourists. Plenty of demand in the PHL area. PHX is for UK snowbirds - they love going there.
CLT, while growing, doesnt have quite the demand, or hasnt had quite the demand, for a BA service since US/BA dismantled their relationship. Time will tell - it might again soon. Now, Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the US, with growing population and diversifying industries. BA could definitely come back at some point. LH has kept a CLT-MUC flight on its own for years since US left Star Alliance. Something must be driving that demand....

evank516 wrote:

CarlosSi wrote:

I'm surprised nobody's stated the obvious yet, but CLT hasn't been an AA hub for very long, or a One World hub to begin until the merger a few years back. I would think hubs of a particular alliance have more international traffic from airlines of that alliance, and this is often the case. Didn't Alitalia and Air France leave EWR after the UA-CO merger? A lot of that connecting traffic goes away when airports go through merger swaps, presumably. And vice versa.

If it mattered that much to them, why has BA announced service to cities like Nashville and MSY as opposed to creating service to a (new) One World hub like CLT?

DTW doesn't have BA service either, and is a pretty busy airport; it's also a Sky-Team hub though.

But of course, Phoenix is on the same boat (plane?) and they have BA service (and on a 747), as do other intermediate cities.

Because PHL and PHX are just as new as CLT is to the OneWorld network, yet the former two have BA Service. Not stating a case for BA to fly there when AA could probably handle this one on it's own, but the excuse of CLT being new to the AA/OneWorld network isn't totally valid IMO.

usxguy wrote:

Full circle. BA & US were once partners and I believe BA served CLT to LGW back in the day as part of their partnership. Wasn't this in the mid 90s?

Yes in the early to mid 90s. US even operated a few of their 762s on BA's behalf in BA's livery (which was how BA was "serving" CLT). After the divorce (~1996-1997) BA moved in with their own metal, first with 777s then later 763s IIRC.

jasoncrh wrote:

LH has kept a CLT-MUC flight on its own for years since US left Star Alliance. Something must be driving that demand....

BMW's manufacturing plant in Spartanburg, South Carolina is what kept that route alive.

jasoncrh wrote:

Philadelphia has had BA service for the bette part of 40 or 50 years because it's the 5th largest US city and smack in the middle of one of the most populated and wealthiest areas of the country. The businesses that are in Philadelphia and its suburbs, primarily pharmaceuticals, drive lots of the premium purchased fares to and from LHR and beyond, while the large numbers of residents in the area fly in the back as tourists. Plenty of demand in the PHL area. PHX is for UK snowbirds - they love going there.
CLT, while growing, doesnt have quite the demand, or hasnt had quite the demand, for a BA service since US/BA dismantled their relationship. Time will tell - it might again soon. Now, Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the US, with growing population and diversifying industries. BA could definitely come back at some point. LH has kept a CLT-MUC flight on its own for years since US left Star Alliance. Something must be driving that demand....

evank516 wrote:

CarlosSi wrote:

I'm surprised nobody's stated the obvious yet, but CLT hasn't been an AA hub for very long, or a One World hub to begin until the merger a few years back. I would think hubs of a particular alliance have more international traffic from airlines of that alliance, and this is often the case. Didn't Alitalia and Air France leave EWR after the UA-CO merger? A lot of that connecting traffic goes away when airports go through merger swaps, presumably. And vice versa.

If it mattered that much to them, why has BA announced service to cities like Nashville and MSY as opposed to creating service to a (new) One World hub like CLT?

DTW doesn't have BA service either, and is a pretty busy airport; it's also a Sky-Team hub though.

But of course, Phoenix is on the same boat (plane?) and they have BA service (and on a 747), as do other intermediate cities.

Because PHL and PHX are just as new as CLT is to the OneWorld network, yet the former two have BA Service. Not stating a case for BA to fly there when AA could probably handle this one on it's own, but the excuse of CLT being new to the AA/OneWorld network isn't totally valid IMO.

It’s a good route, that’s why c: . But was there any slight traffic drop as a result of the merger?

And yeah PHL has BA regardless of hub status because of its size.

I guess what I want to say now is that BA may only work in the future because of connections, but had less of a chance in the past.

continental004 wrote:

No one would care about CLT if it wasn’t a hub. What even is there

CLT would be served by BA or another airline to LHR if there were no AA hub there.

jasoncrh wrote:

LH has kept a CLT-MUC flight on its own for years since US left Star Alliance. Something must be driving that demand....

There are a lot of business ties between that part of North and South Carolina and Germany, especially Bavaria.

usxguy wrote:

Full circle. BA & US were once partners and I believe BA served CLT to LGW back in the day as part of their partnership. Wasn't this in the mid 90s?

They did. A once daily 767 that stopped in BWI both ways if I recall.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

There are a lot of business ties between that part of North and South Carolina and Germany, especially Bavaria.

Combined they pale in comparison to BMW's most profitable facility (Spartanburg) and all of their tier suppliers in the region.

Regarding the PHX service, that goes way back to the 1990s when BA had a partnership with HP. The partnership ended at some point but the flight performed well enough to remain. Since the US/AA merger, it has been able to add connections on the PHX end, although I don't know if they increased frequency or anything like that. I know around 2007 or so when I lived out there, it was less than daily.

BA served CLT from 1994-2002.

The first couple years the flight was jointly operated by BA and US with a 762 painted in BA colors with a US crew in BA uniform providing the full BA service.

The US/BA partnership soured in 1996 and BA began their own service soon after. Initially the flight operated with a 763 then switched to a 777 in its final years.

The flight was nonstop to LGW. After 9/11 BA discontinued the nonstop and operated CLT-BWI-LHR. The flight was discontinued in 2002.

BA also had a Terraces Lounge in CLT when they provided service.

BAINY3 wrote:

Regarding the PHX service, that goes way back to the 1990s when BA had a partnership with HP. The partnership ended at some point but the flight performed well enough to remain. Since the US/AA merger, it has been able to add connections on the PHX end, although I don't know if they increased frequency or anything like that. I know around 2007 or so when I lived out there, it was less than daily.

For May and June of this past year, the frequency was increased to 10x weekly on a 744.

I believe the 10x weekly returns next year for a period of time as well.

From my observations, PHX-LHR seems to be stronger on the LHR (or elsewhere in Europe) point of sale versus the PHX point of sale. Hence why it is operated by BA and not AA.

RDUDDJI wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

There are a lot of business ties between that part of North and South Carolina and Germany, especially Bavaria.

Combined they pale in comparison to BMW's most profitable facility (Spartanburg) and all of their tier suppliers in the region.

Between Freightliner in Statesville and Thomas Built Buses in High Point, Daimler is actually close to BMW’s size in “greater Charlotte.”

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

continental004 wrote:

No one would care about CLT if it wasn’t a hub. What even is there

CLT would be served by BA or another airline to LHR if there were no AA hub there.

jasoncrh wrote:

LH has kept a CLT-MUC flight on its own for years since US left Star Alliance. Something must be driving that demand....

There are a lot of business ties between that part of North and South Carolina and Germany, especially Bavaria.

What’s is here is a is a lot of business traffic. Charlotte is no tourist city, (And for things like NASCAR people drive) but it more than carries its weight with domestic business traffic. It slouches on international and incoming tourist traffic though. I’ve heard that an even higher numbers of Intl passengers aren’t O/D.

acentauri wrote:

The BA772 has high/heat t/o problems at PHX.

No it doesn't. Not relative to any other aircraft.

BA flew 77Es to PHX for years, with no problem.

LAX772LR wrote:

acentauri wrote:

The BA772 has high/heat t/o problems at PHX.

No it doesn't. Not relative to any other aircraft.

BA flew 77Es to PHX for years, with no problem.

That is incorrect. Significant weight restrictions were common on the 772 out of PHX, particularly in Summer, making the flight less economical than switching to a 747.

acentauri wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

acentauri wrote:

The BA772 has high/heat t/o problems at PHX.

No it doesn't. Not relative to any other aircraft.

BA flew 77Es to PHX for years, with no problem.

That is incorrect. Significant weight restrictions were common on the 772 out of PHX, particularly in Summer, making the flight less economical than switching to a 747.

Nothing incorrect about it. "Significant weight restrictions" are common in PHX on EVERY aircraft during Summer

That's not to say that a 744 (or any quad) isn't going to generally outperform a twin on hot/high... but that's not what you said. You claimed that the 77E had "problems," and that's just flat out false.

RDUDDJI wrote:

Combined they pale in comparison to BMW's most profitable facility (Spartanburg) and all of their tier suppliers in the region.

That's only a part of it...Freightliner (Mercedes) have two plants near CLT and Siemens (Westinghouse) has a nuclear turbine plant in CLT, both German Corporations.

As far as BA via BWI from CLT-LON, that tag was at the very end of the service. For most of the 90's BA flights were nonstop from CLT.

acentauri wrote:

The BA772 has high/heat t/o problems at PHX.

Completely erroneous, the 772 is the perfect aircraft for PHX LHR during the hot high low season, it's a powerhouse with few restrictions.

BA has not entered the CLT market due to the AA agreement that they'll fly twice daily A333 flights, they'd rather deploy their 787 on new routes such as AUS/MSY/BNA.

PHL has corporate contracts that guarantee revenue even if seats are not used, the pharmaceutical industry is crazy here & if add the cargo, daily pallets await clearance to load onto the LHR flight out of PHL. They just sit & wait for the ok. Daily, business class will show full & an hour out, 6 seats become available, it's the revenue guarantee & only sharing from somebody there nightly.

Latest conversation is a PHX LHR BA/AA route swap, it's been conversation for years. An A332 could easily accomplish this as it's 500 miles less than PHLTLV was. And let's bring that up, TLV reentry has been discussed quite a bit lately.

BA operated to Charlotte from Gatwick for many years from 1994 until 2002. Sadly the events of 9/11 killed it. BA is unlikely to return any time soon since the double daily AA flights provide enough capacity. There probably will be an increase on the AA flights when the A330 are replaced by Boeing planes from the AA fleet which could see 777-200ER flying from CLT to LHR.

RDUDDJI wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

There are a lot of business ties between that part of North and South Carolina and Germany, especially Bavaria.

Combined they pale in comparison to BMW's most profitable facility (Spartanburg) and all of their tier suppliers in the region.

I never said it didn't.

Since the conventional wisdom is that PHX gets dehubbed by AA after the merger driven regulatory cool-off period, maybe BA will then move the 744 they use on the PHX run to CLT?

Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs):

ORD - 9.5 million
DFW - 7.2 million
PHL - 6.1 million
MIA - 6.1 million
PHX - 4.6 million


CLT - 2.5 million

That's a big part of the reason BA serve the others but not CLT.

Cubsrule wrote:

Between Freightliner in Statesville and Thomas Built Buses in High Point, Daimler is actually close to BMW’s size in “greater Charlotte.”

They employ a fraction of the employees (or more importantly: investment) at BMW and their production output combined is probably <20% of what BMW's is. Heavy truck plants make a few dozen trucks a day, BMW makes many hundreds of X series vehicles in that time frame.

Both Freightliner (who's plants are actually in the CLT area) and Thomas Bus, are subsidiaries of Daimler *North America*, whose HQ is in PDX. There is a lot of travel CLT-PDX, but that's about it. I'm pretty sure Thomas Buses aren't sold/marketed outside North America, and not sure about Freightliner, but suspect that may be the case there as well. In 2013, NC missed out on Daimler Truck NA's big "white collar" expansion that instead went to their HQ in PDX. Had they won that, it may have added some demand to Germany, but Daimler AG is in STR not MUC.

Disclaimer: BMW, Siemens, Freightliner, and Thomas Bus are all customers of mine.

No. BA has flown to Phoenix for over 20 years now, primarily because there is a large market of people in Britain/ parts of Europe who actually want to go to PHoenix. It's a destination in its own right. Also, Phoenix has a growing population and diversifying businesses too - it has demand for at least one flight to Europe. BA (and most carriers) do better with markets that serve primarily as destinations, not just way points. Phoenix is a destination. It was a destination for Phoenix before AA/US and will be a destination for BA even if AA dehubs PHX, primarily because it's a destination with demand from England and Europe, and vice versa.

quote="Adipocere"]Since the conventional wisdom is that PHX gets dehubbed by AA after the merger driven regulatory cool-off period, maybe BA will then move the 744 they use on the PHX run to CLT?[/quote]

BA purchsed 25% of US with plans to purchase up to 44% but that never happened because the US govt would not allow it. US operated a wet lease for BA, US a/c were painted in BA colours and were staffed by US crews wearing BA uniforms. The crew were trained in BA procedures and service. US handled all ground ops. US customer service agents worked the flight in BA uniforms. Eventually BA flew their own metal from CLT.

The UK is the 2nd largest foreign employer in the area and has 100+ companies with 50,000+ employess operating in the CLT metro region.

Germany is 1st with 194 German companies in the area including 59 companies with their US headquarters located in the CLT area. They also employ 50,000+ employees.

It would be great to see BA in CLT but I think with the revenue sharing agreement between BA and AA it will not happen.

Once American starts the draw down of the A333 fleet and BA has more B788s coming, there may be an opportunity to right size ops on CLT-LHR with mixed metal.

RDUDDJI wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

Between Freightliner in Statesville and Thomas Built Buses in High Point, Daimler is actually close to BMW’s size in “greater Charlotte.”

They employ a fraction of the employees (or more importantly: investment) at BMW and their production output combined is probably <20% of what BMW's is. Heavy truck plants make a few dozen trucks a day, BMW makes many hundreds of X series vehicles in that time frame.

Both Freightliner (who's plants are actually in the CLT area) and Thomas Bus, are subsidiaries of Daimler *North America*, whose HQ is in PDX. There is a lot of travel CLT-PDX, but that's about it. I'm pretty sure Thomas Buses aren't sold/marketed outside North America, and not sure about Freightliner, but suspect that may be the case there as well. In 2013, NC missed out on Daimler Truck NA's big "white collar" expansion that instead went to their HQ in PDX. Had they won that, it may have added some demand to Germany, but Daimler AG is in STR not MUC.

Disclaimer: BMW, Siemens, Freightliner, and Thomas Bus are all customers of mine.

I'm not sure why this needs to be a pissing contest or why BMW needs to win, but I would note generally that BMW NA (in New Jersey) performs many of the same sorts of functions (regulatory, sales, etc.) that DTNA performs in Portland. And output is awfully misleading. Nice Cascadias cost several times what an X3 costs.

BAINY3 wrote:

Regarding the PHX service, that goes way back to the 1990s when BA had a partnership with HP. The partnership ended at some point but the flight performed well enough to remain. Since the US/AA merger, it has been able to add connections on the PHX end, although I don't know if they increased frequency or anything like that. I know around 2007 or so when I lived out there, it was less than daily.

I think that was around 2008/2009 when the economy took a dump. The flight was 6x/week for a while on the 77E.

Adipocere wrote:

Since the conventional wisdom is that PHX gets dehubbed by AA after the merger driven regulatory cool-off period, maybe BA will then move the 744 they use on the PHX run to CLT?

I'm not sure that's "wisdom". Maybe around here where no one knows what they're talking about that's wisdom.

Here's the thing, there's no other hub that can do what PHX does. LAX is too gate constrained and DFW is too far east. PHX may get right-sized, but there's no way AA is dehubbing Phoenix.

LAX772LR wrote:

That's not to say that a 744 (or any quad) isn't going to generally outperform a twin on hot/high... but that's not what you said. You claimed that the 77E had "problems," and that's just flat out false.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Even on a hot day, a 77E should have plenty of performance reserve to operate out of PHX. The route doesn't come anywhere near taxing the range of a 77E, so there should be plenty of slack to work with in terms of weight and consequently performance. Also, PHX isn't "high", it's only ~1100 feet above sea level. BA has operated the 77E out of PHX in the past and they've operated it out of LAS as well, which is twice as high and almost as equally as hot.