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jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

What shortage of 767 frames for p2f conversions? There are heaps of stored frames, most getting scrapped as nobody needs them. A330 p2f gives you a more capable, both payload and range, frame.

Oh and also, the A330 may be more capable in terms of payload and range, but it doesn't fit in the ramp space of many of the largest air freight providers/integrators. These ramp spaces were optimized for the A300/310 and the 767 fits nicely into the space. Remember that increasing the ramp space required for each plane will reduce the amount of planes that can be served, and hence reducing the cargo handling capacity at the cargo hubs. Plus, most operators don't need the payload or the range of the A330s, or have decided that other planes could be more optimal in doing it if they require payload and range beyond the 767's (eg 777F/747F).


About what are you arguing? I just said that the A330 P2F is in a different class than the 767 P2F. You declared that A330 P2F is only happening because of the unavailability of 767-300ER, what is totally nonsense.

Refer to this post:

viewtopic.php?t=1376201#p19885693

According to Atlas the used 767 market is going dry and they are looking into the A330P2F market. We’ll see what happens going forward.


It is good to visit Boeing threads for updates even if one is an ardent Airbus supporter and vice versa.

Plus, I didn't say the A330P2F is happening because the 767 supply is running low, I said some companies are looking at the A330 only after they have looked high and low on the 767 market.

Edited with the original article:

https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/dwin ... atlas-air/
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:11 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The point I am disputing, is the lack of frames suitable for conversions and I talk about 767-300ER. There are heaps of stored frames around and there will be more retired in the near future. Of the 24 767-300ER that BA retired are 9 stored and 4 scrapped for example.


You have to look at cycle times and condition... By far... not every retired 767 of any model is suitable for conversion to freighter. Same is true of any aircraft. Remaining cycles and condition is KING... not just being retired from passenger use.

The people in the Freight Conversion Market are saying that they are running out of suitable 767 frames for the future. I believe them.

Have a great day,
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:31 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Suitable 767 frames, if you have followed the 767 fleet activity thread, you would realise that the oldest frames are not going to be converted. Firstly because of their age/hours/cycles, secondly because many of them are -300s instead of -300ERs. The LN approximated by the thread starter of the 767 fleet activity thread was around LN300-LN400 (I think this was back in the 2016 thread), thats a rough guide as to what gets retired for good, and what gets converted or resold as a pax plane. This range of LNs were built around the same time as the first A330s.

Have a look at the thread, it gives you a snapshot of how popular the 767 is in the cargo market.
viewtopic.php?t=1352665

While you are at it, have a look at the Amazon fleet thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=607515&start=1600


The point I am disputing, is the lack of frames suitable for conversions and I talk about 767-300ER. There are heaps of stored frames around and there will be more retired in the near future. Of the 24 767-300ER that BA retired are 9 stored and 4 scrapped for example.


That’s just one example you give, plus those BA frames ought to be some tired aircraft running around Domestic Europe.

And there is no STC for cargo conversion of RR powered 763s, so their resale is very limited.None of the 767-336s will ever be converted.
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airzona11
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Widening the cabin wold not make it a 767. The LD3 issue is not an issue. The narriw fuselage is what gives the 767 an advantage over the 330. Put GEnx engines on it, or RR if they have one on tbe shelf that fits, update the cockpit/CNS, and do a minimum change, minimum cost, quick to market airplane.


As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


Did the A330 kill the 767? What airline replaced the 767 with A330s? A330 is upmarket. A330-200 is not a 763 competitor. If the A300 was still operated by major airlines with hundreds of frames, they would probably consider it. The fact that airlines are still flying the 767s, not replacing them with "the airlines that are clear better" means that it is more than imagination their value.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:33 pm

airzona11 wrote:
What airline replaced the 767 with A330s?

I'm not going to get into your broader question of whether the A330 is a true competitor to the 767, but to answer your specific question, in the immortal words of Dustin Hoffmann in Rain Man: Qantas.

https://youtu.be/KeYf-rhMQIQ (NB contains coarse language, so be mindful where you watch this clip).

V/F
Last edited by VirginFlyer on Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:37 pm

airzona11 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Widening the cabin wold not make it a 767. The LD3 issue is not an issue. The narriw fuselage is what gives the 767 an advantage over the 330. Put GEnx engines on it, or RR if they have one on tbe shelf that fits, update the cockpit/CNS, and do a minimum change, minimum cost, quick to market airplane.


As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


Did the A330 kill the 767? What airline replaced the 767 with A330s? A330 is upmarket. A330-200 is not a 763 competitor. If the A300 was still operated by major airlines with hundreds of frames, they would probably consider it. The fact that airlines are still flying the 767s, not replacing them with "the airlines that are clear better" means that it is more than imagination their value.

Well to be fair, HA did largely replace their older 767s with A330s, but a lot of the airlines who had replaced their 767s replaced them with 787s, eg the Japanese, Kiwis, Chileans (who decided to give their 767s to the Brazilians to replace 330s).
 
redroo
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:47 pm

What's the different between to 763 and the A332?

I'd always thought (maybe through airliners.net thinking) was that the A332 killed off the 767. Is it because the 767 is a bit smaller and lighter than the A332?

I have to admit it would be fascinating to see them start making pax versions again. I would be really interesting to see what the economics were like with an existing build vs a "quick refresh" versus the A330s, 787s, etc.

Exciting times ahead.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:58 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

I'm pretty sure they now come out of the factory with the large format displays.


I was quite sure it was a post delivery mod as others have said much like spit scimitars on the 737/757, which are added after delivery.


It could still be the case, I could have sworn that I saw a cockpit photo of a FX 767 at PAE showing the new displays. To me it would make more sense to have it be a line fit instead of producing those old CRTs and since the KC-46A has already done away with the old displays it just doesn't make much sense to me to keep producing the old cockpit. Also yes I know the KC-46A and the updated 767 cockpit are different designs.



You are correct about the KC-46A. As for the 767F I’m out and about currently running errands or I’d link to the PTQ for FedEx which shows it using the old CRTs and then after flight testing sometime, they’re swapped out.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The point I am disputing, is the lack of frames suitable for conversions and I talk about 767-300ER. There are heaps of stored frames around and there will be more retired in the near future. Of the 24 767-300ER that BA retired are 9 stored and 4 scrapped for example.

mjoelnir wrote:
About what are you arguing, jeffrey0032j? You declared that A330 P2F is only happening because of the unavailability of 767-300ER, what is totally nonsense.


Atlas Air executives earlier this month noted at an air cargo symposium that they are having difficulty securing 767-300ERs suitable for conversion to freighters and this is impacting their ability to meet existing contracts as well as seek new ones. They are therefore considering expanding into the 737P2F and A330P2F market to help provide more capacity.

Boeing and Bedek are both working to expand their conversion programs (Bedek just announced a new conversion center in Mexico) with the expectation that this shortage of 767 will be easing as Boeing and Airbus accelerate 787 and A350 deliveries and as the A330neo starts production.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:10 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The GE 763ERs are hot items right now.


The crew of AA 383 would agree. :flamed:
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
klkla
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:39 pm

If they adapted the engines from the 747-8, has been suggested earlier in the thread, what would the engine change alone be worth in terms of increasing fuel efficiency?
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:54 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
If there is so much demand for the pax version, why did Boeing not sell them years earlier?


Stitch wrote:
Because Scott Kirby was not CEO of United years earlier? He seems to be the one pushing through UA's fleet replacement and modernization. He spearheaded the A350-900 order conversion and expansion to handle 777-200 replacement and per a January article in Flight Global, now he's looking at the 767 fleet. If MOM is a decade out, then fresh 767s might pencil in better for the missions UA is running them on then A350-900s or 787s.


Also, the existing 767s, like most of UA's 763s, are getting old and aren't as reliable as the airline would like, I suspect. So new 763s would be a relatively quick, interim solution.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:55 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The point I am disputing, is the lack of frames suitable for conversions and I talk about 767-300ER. There are heaps of stored frames around and there will be more retired in the near future. Of the 24 767-300ER that BA retired are 9 stored and 4 scrapped for example.

mjoelnir wrote:
About what are you arguing, jeffrey0032j? You declared that A330 P2F is only happening because of the unavailability of 767-300ER, what is totally nonsense.


Atlas Air executives earlier this month noted at an air cargo symposium that they are having difficulty securing 767-300ERs suitable for conversion to freighters and this is impacting their ability to meet existing contracts as well as seek new ones. They are therefore considering expanding into the 737P2F and A330P2F market to help provide more capacity.

Boeing and Bedek are both working to expand their conversion programs (Bedek just announced a new conversion center in Mexico) with the expectation that this shortage of 767 will be easing as Boeing and Airbus accelerate 787 and A350 deliveries and as the A330neo starts production.


So it is at most a short time problem, otherwise why expand conversion capacity, or perhaps you need to go for a few RR or P&W birds.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:04 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
So it is at most a short time problem, otherwise why expand conversion capacity, or perhaps you need to go for a few RR or P&W birds.


Yes, the hope is that this shortage will start to decrease, but lack of 767 feedstock has been an issue for years in the express freight arena (which is where the strongest demand for 767 freighters is). A mix of a slow 787 production ramp requiring airlines had to hold on to their 767s longer and strong passenger traffic upticks worldwide that have compelled airlines to keep their 767s in the fleet even after delivery of the 787s meant to replace them to keep up with demand. This probably helped influence FX and 5X to just order new freighters over going with conversions (only now has 5X started adding 767P2Fs - three ex-JAL birds).
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:13 pm

klkla wrote:
If they adapted the engines from the 747-8, has been suggested earlier in the thread, what would the engine change alone be worth in terms of increasing fuel efficiency?


6-8 percent. Not a big deal to low frequency or short haul carriers, but interesting if looking at 2-4 years of sales or if you’re ge and trying to pry USAF business longer term.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:17 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Widening the cabin wold not make it a 767. The LD3 issue is not an issue. The narriw fuselage is what gives the 767 an advantage over the 330. Put GEnx engines on it, or RR if they have one on tbe shelf that fits, update the cockpit/CNS, and do a minimum change, minimum cost, quick to market airplane.


As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


I'm not sure how one airplane can kill another, but...

I do not consider the outstanding A330 to be a 767 competitor. The 330-200 is wider, longer, and heavier than the 767-300ER. The A330 wing is 20% larger than the B767.

I think the strength of the 767 is that it has a size niche and I believe that airlines can use it to serve less dense markets or fly at off-peak times. There is no replacment aircraft in that size niche. With GEnx engines and a new cockpit and minimal other changes, it would be a very impressive aircraft for the price/development cost.
 
mikejepp
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:48 pm

SteelChair wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Widening the cabin wold not make it a 767. The LD3 issue is not an issue. The narriw fuselage is what gives the 767 an advantage over the 330. Put GEnx engines on it, or RR if they have one on tbe shelf that fits, update the cockpit/CNS, and do a minimum change, minimum cost, quick to market airplane.


As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


I'm not sure how one airplane can kill another, but...

I do not consider the outstanding A330 to be a 767 competitor. The 330-200 is wider, longer, and heavier than the 767-300ER. The A330 wing is 20% larger than the B767.

I think the strength of the 767 is that it has a size niche and I believe that airlines can use it to serve less dense markets or fly at off-peak times. There is no replacment aircraft in that size niche. With GEnx engines and a new cockpit and minimal other changes, it would be a very impressive aircraft for the price/development cost.


They're competitors.

In the sense that if an airline is looking for a plane in that size range (bigger than a narrowbody, smaller than the 350/777), there aren't a lot of choices. 763, 788, 332. These are the planes that will be competing for your business.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:56 pm

mikejepp wrote:
They're competitors.

In the sense that if an airline is looking for a plane in that size range (bigger than a narrowbody, smaller than the 350/777), there aren't a lot of choices. 763, 788, 332. These are the planes that will be competing for your business.


It's been said that the only replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3. Perhaps something similar is at work here - replace old or older 763s with new 763s as a quick replacement IF your routes might not support the somewhat larger A330s.

Further, what's the earliest available delivery date for an A330 anyway? Would new 763s be available sooner?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:22 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


Did the A330 kill the 767? What airline replaced the 767 with A330s? A330 is upmarket. A330-200 is not a 763 competitor. If the A300 was still operated by major airlines with hundreds of frames, they would probably consider it. The fact that airlines are still flying the 767s, not replacing them with "the airlines that are clear better" means that it is more than imagination their value.

Well to be fair, HA did largely replace their older 767s with A330s, but a lot of the airlines who had replaced their 767s replaced them with 787s, eg the Japanese, Kiwis, Chileans (who decided to give their 767s to the Brazilians to replace 330s).


HA is a good example and I was not thinking about them. There does seem to be some rumor that the A338 is too much plane but I bet they go A338 or 9. ANA JAL and LatAm, they haven't retired the 763ERs and in-fact they are the last 3 major airlines to take delivery of the 763s. All 3 might take some low-cost 763s.

I think the 767s and A330s compliment the fleets well, look at AA and DL, operating large numbers of both. The US3 have a unique setup with multiple distributed hubs where they offer either multiple frequencies or more service with the smaller 763s.

Clearly the airlines want new tech in that size segment, they just only have 2 vendors to choose from that have nothing on offer.
 
rgustafson
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:38 am

With new engines, a new cockpit, 787 windows and upgraded electric and mechanical systems, the 767X just might be very attractive to some carriers. .
RGTWA
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:40 am

mikejepp wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

As the A330 killed of the 767, any advantage of the 767 is an imagination. The A310 sold as well or bad as the 767-200/200ER. The A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER.
The 787 was to a big part developed, because the 767 could not compete with A330 any longer.

This article from Leeham is about Boeing perhaps producing a few 767-300ER, for a few airlines, for IMO a very low price, to fill a certain niche.

It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX. :sarcastic: :silly:


I'm not sure how one airplane can kill another, but...

I do not consider the outstanding A330 to be a 767 competitor. The 330-200 is wider, longer, and heavier than the 767-300ER. The A330 wing is 20% larger than the B767.

I think the strength of the 767 is that it has a size niche and I believe that airlines can use it to serve less dense markets or fly at off-peak times. There is no replacment aircraft in that size niche. With GEnx engines and a new cockpit and minimal other changes, it would be a very impressive aircraft for the price/development cost.


They're competitors.

In the sense that if an airline is looking for a plane in that size range (bigger than a narrowbody, smaller than the 350/777), there aren't a lot of choices. 763, 788, 332. These are the planes that will be competing for your business.


The 788 and 332 are both about 25 tonnes heavier (empty weight) than a 763. This in an age when airlines beat on their Dispatchers to shave 100 lbs of fuel per flight.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:53 am

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So it is at most a short time problem, otherwise why expand conversion capacity, or perhaps you need to go for a few RR or P&W birds.


Yes, the hope is that this shortage will start to decrease, but lack of 767 feedstock has been an issue for years in the express freight arena (which is where the strongest demand for 767 freighters is). A mix of a slow 787 production ramp requiring airlines had to hold on to their 767s longer and strong passenger traffic upticks worldwide that have compelled airlines to keep their 767s in the fleet even after delivery of the 787s meant to replace them to keep up with demand. This probably helped influence FX and 5X to just order new freighters over going with conversions (only now has 5X started adding 767P2Fs - three ex-JAL birds).

While there was a shortage of stock, the freight market also didn't grow as expected.

We'll see more 767s available, but I expect more new builds. Part of the issue is Amazon went into the market with their own conversion company. FWIW, I expect Amazon to buy some new 767Fs once they get around to two sorts per day.

Lightsaber
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VC10er
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 am

I have resisted chiming in because the only reason the idea of new pax 767-300ERs is that I love flying in them. I know full well that passenger preference is not enough to move Boeing or an airline to purchase. I’ve seen the pics of UA’s Polaris 767 and I would be very happy to fly those 767s for the rest of my life should the 797 not materialize. They are the “Goldie Locks” aircraft for me: just right. Especially if they could get a new and cleaner burning engine.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:04 am

lightsaber wrote:
While there was a shortage of stock, the freight market also didn't grow as expected.


That seems to be changing, however, with express freight reported to be up over 10% YoY in 2017 over 2016.
 
dochawk2
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:12 am

VC10er wrote:
I have resisted chiming in because the only reason the idea of new pax 767-300ERs is that I love flying in them. I know full well that passenger preference is not enough to move Boeing or an airline to purchase. I’ve seen the pics of UA’s Polaris 767 and I would be very happy to fly those 767s for the rest of my life should the 797 not materialize. They are the “Goldie Locks” aircraft for me: just right. Especially if they could get a new and cleaner burning engine.


Exactly.


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wjcandee
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:26 am

Stitch wrote:
Atlas Air executives earlier this month noted at an air cargo symposium that they are having difficulty securing 767-300ERs suitable for conversion to freighters and this is impacting their ability to meet existing contracts as well as seek new ones.


So interesting, given that they were sooooooo confident not too long ago. They have all the slots they need for Amazon, and they only have 6 left to source beyond the ones that I know about, so maybe even fewer. Maybe this is cover for it being hard to source pilots.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:43 am

lightsaber wrote:
Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So it is at most a short time problem, otherwise why expand conversion capacity, or perhaps you need to go for a few RR or P&W birds.


Yes, the hope is that this shortage will start to decrease, but lack of 767 feedstock has been an issue for years in the express freight arena (which is where the strongest demand for 767 freighters is). A mix of a slow 787 production ramp requiring airlines had to hold on to their 767s longer and strong passenger traffic upticks worldwide that have compelled airlines to keep their 767s in the fleet even after delivery of the 787s meant to replace them to keep up with demand. This probably helped influence FX and 5X to just order new freighters over going with conversions (only now has 5X started adding 767P2Fs - three ex-JAL birds).

While there was a shortage of stock, the freight market also didn't grow as expected.

We'll see more 767s available, but I expect more new builds. Part of the issue is Amazon went into the market with their own conversion company. FWIW, I expect Amazon to buy some new 767Fs once they get around to two sorts per day.

Lightsaber

Could you please expand on Amazon's "own conversion company "? Been following the whole Prime Air experiment from the beginning and that's news to me. ATSG has used the Bedek line in TLV, Atlas has been using that and QPG. The new line at MEX just had a Kalitta bird sent there, but Kalitta isn't doing Amazon work.
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UPS757Pilot
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:15 am

Potential US customers - United of course, maybe American as well, but I don't think Delta is on good terms with Boeing these days. On the freight side, UPS, Fedex possibly but they're well into their current production run. The wildcards are the Amazon contractors. I could see Atlas, Kalitta, Airborne and ATI all potential customers. I believe Boeing sees a great opportunity here. Not to mention further USAF KC-46 orders or even a derivative for other missions.

Potential for non-US customers. Iceland Air, Air Astana, Ryanair, maybe one of the ME3 and possibly ANA or JAL. Could be a big year for the 767.
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:55 am

Could the shortage of viable 767s for P2F conversions be a factor in this. Boeing may offer a reduced cost in exchange for some sort of 8-10 year useful life, after which the aircraft are converted to Freighters and are theoretically replaced with MoM
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wrenchon727
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:09 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:

I was quite sure it was a post delivery mod as others have said much like spit scimitars on the 737/757, which are added after delivery.


It could still be the case, I could have sworn that I saw a cockpit photo of a FX 767 at PAE showing the new displays. To me it would make more sense to have it be a line fit instead of producing those old CRTs and since the KC-46A has already done away with the old displays it just doesn't make much sense to me to keep producing the old cockpit. Also yes I know the KC-46A and the updated 767 cockpit are different designs.



You are correct about the KC-46A. As for the 767F I’m out and about currently running errands or I’d link to the PTQ for FedEx which shows it using the old CRTs and then after flight testing sometime, they’re swapped out.


The airplanes were originally delivered with CRT displays and FedEx did the LDS mod along with HUD in Memphis before revenue service. FedEx no longer installs the LDS after delivery they have been factory installed since LN 1089. After peak the exSilk way aircraft 297 &298 will get LDS & HUD mod with 078 & 079 being returned the fleet will be all LDS some time in early 2018, and 297 will have the winglets removed at that time to.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:42 am

wrenchon727 wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

It could still be the case, I could have sworn that I saw a cockpit photo of a FX 767 at PAE showing the new displays. To me it would make more sense to have it be a line fit instead of producing those old CRTs and since the KC-46A has already done away with the old displays it just doesn't make much sense to me to keep producing the old cockpit. Also yes I know the KC-46A and the updated 767 cockpit are different designs.



You are correct about the KC-46A. As for the 767F I’m out and about currently running errands or I’d link to the PTQ for FedEx which shows it using the old CRTs and then after flight testing sometime, they’re swapped out.


The airplanes were originally delivered with CRT displays and FedEx did the LDS mod along with HUD in Memphis before revenue service. FedEx no longer installs the LDS after delivery they have been factory installed since LN 1089. After peak the exSilk way aircraft 297 &298 will get LDS & HUD mod with 078 & 079 being returned the fleet will be all LDS some time in early 2018, and 297 will have the winglets removed at that time to.


Ahh ok thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected. :smile:
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SeaTran
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:46 am

Haven’t read through everything in this thread, but what are the chances the order could be for WN? Rumors have been flying there for years about a possible 767 purchase. I personally think the 787 or MOM would be far more suitable, but the rumor mill at WN thinks there’s a decent chance the order could for WN.
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:12 am

Okay... now through out all of this, one thing I haven't largely heard considered. For this carriers needing a 767 replacement due to them getting too many cycles or hrs on them.... has anybody considered the huge Amount of 332s about to be on the market? Until things got a little bit complex politically turkish was snapping them up where ever they could find them.
They'll be still cheaper than any new build 767, they'll only have marginally higher operating costs but significantly greater capabilities and a lower CASM, and on shorter missions that thing is like a rocket, it won't have any issues with short runways in high temps etc. For DL and AA and AC, their would be no additional investment. They already have everything to support it. For UA... There would but they have a big pool of Airbus pilots and there'd be no issues getting LH to take care of them. And if Airbus is going to go ahead with a A322 project.... no doubt they'd be keen on these a/c maintaining some attractiveness in the mean time.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:28 am

Lufthansa wrote:
Okay... now through out all of this, one thing I haven't largely heard considered. For this carriers needing a 767 replacement due to them getting too many cycles or hrs on them.... has anybody considered the huge Amount of 332s about to be on the market? Until things got a little bit complex politically turkish was snapping them up where ever they could find them.
They'll be still cheaper than any new build 767, they'll only have marginally higher operating costs but significantly greater capabilities and a lower CASM, and on shorter missions that thing is like a rocket, it won't have any issues with short runways in high temps etc. For DL and AA and AC, their would be no additional investment. They already have everything to support it. For UA... There would but they have a big pool of Airbus pilots and there'd be no issues getting LH to take care of them. And if Airbus is going to go ahead with a A322 project.... no doubt they'd be keen on these a/c maintaining some attractiveness in the mean time.

There’s one big issue there though, those that would be looking at replacing remaining 763s don’t need the capability of the A332 nor do they want a shrink aircraft and the issues that come inherently with those. As well the 763 is a rocket in its own right. Ask those that fly it and the 757 and they will generally say it’s almost as much of a rocket as the 757, especially with the CF6, but otherwise flies better.
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:08 am

Lufthansa wrote:
Okay... now through out all of this, one thing I haven't largely heard considered. For this carriers needing a 767 replacement due to them getting too many cycles or hrs on them.... has anybody considered the huge Amount of 332s about to be on the market? Until things got a little bit complex politically turkish was snapping them up where ever they could find them.
They'll be still cheaper than any new build 767, they'll only have marginally higher operating costs but significantly greater capabilities and a lower CASM, and on shorter missions that thing is like a rocket, it won't have any issues with short runways in high temps etc. For DL and AA and AC, their would be no additional investment. They already have everything to support it. For UA... There would but they have a big pool of Airbus pilots and there'd be no issues getting LH to take care of them. And if Airbus is going to go ahead with a A322 project.... no doubt they'd be keen on these a/c maintaining some attractiveness in the mean time.


The cost associated with bringing in, training pilots and staff, maintenance, etc. of a new type may make new 767's a cheaper option - especially for organizations that have well established and robust 767 programs and support in place. It is not just the cost of the aircraft and it's capability. It's the cost to operate and maintain it as well...

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:13 am

Lufthansa wrote:
Okay... now through out all of this, one thing I haven't largely heard considered. For this carriers needing a 767 replacement due to them getting too many cycles or hrs on them.... has anybody considered the huge Amount of 332s about to be on the market?


Of the four potential operators I listed in my earlier post, two (UA and NH) don't currently operate the A330. Buying cheap 767s would almost certainly be cheaper than adding a new type for interim lift.

I'm sure that for AA and DL both used and new 332s would be part of the analysis. One issue to consider is that most of the used 332s on the market are fairly high-cycle/time in their own right, and so adding them at this stage of their lives wouldn't bring the same maintenance benefit as the operator would get from having brand-new 767s in the role.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:33 am

seabosdca wrote:
I think this is a potential solution ONLY for airlines that 1) currently operate the 767, 2) have older 767s in imminent need of replacement, and 3) fly a lot of missions where a 339 or 789 would be too much airplane.

I'd go out on a limb and say even for a couple or so of missions where an A332 or A338 may be too big, for that matter.

Flyglobal wrote:
Basically yes, but you have to say that the new efficient engines come along with heavier weight. So at least the Wing and Fuselage attached structure needs to be upgraded to Support this weight.

DfwRevolution wrote:
Revelation wrote:
There is no existing engine that can serve as a 767MAX engine and no time or money or even interest in developing one. The 767 can't support a larger/heavier engine and all modern engines are larger and heavier.

I'm sort of surprised by this.

The GEnx-2B is about 2,500 lbs heavier than the CF6-80C2. Not trivial, but it's an equivalent weight to 400 gallons of JetA on a wing structure that contains up to 12,000 gallons of JetA. Sure, the bending moments aren't 1-to-1 and so forth. But I find it very surprising such a change couldn't be managed by a combination of offloading fuel or minor structural modification.

I was thinking along similar lines. Won't new composite wings and if needed, a new wingbox, take care of those? Of course, others may say that it's a different plane by then and costs will have gone through the roof, that it's much better to do a clean-sheet.


texl1649 wrote:
klkla wrote:
If they adapted the engines from the 747-8, has been suggested earlier in the thread, what would the engine change alone be worth in terms of increasing fuel efficiency?

6-8 percent. Not a big deal to low frequency or short haul carriers, but interesting if looking at 2-4 years of sales or if you’re ge and trying to pry USAF business longer term.

Good to know. I was beginning to wonder if the pushback against re-engining the 767 with a GEnx2B derivative was due to an inherent flaw in the engine.


mjoelnir wrote:
It is not about a world beating 767MAX. Airbus should resurrect the A300 and neo it to counter the dire threat of the 767MAX.

For those unduly exercised by the re-engine suggestion -- relax. :cold: It's just to elicit responses and focus minds on a current positive development instead of moping over one OEM's supposed setback. Evidently, it's effective as this thread is now well over 300 posts. :cheerful:

For what it's worth, I'm warming to the thought of a merely 'refreshed' 763 :cloudnine: instead of a 6-abreast narrowbody or an 8-abreast small widebody 797 which won't EIS until 2025 at the earliest.
Last edited by Devilfish on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:44 am

texl1649 wrote:
klkla wrote:
If they adapted the engines from the 747-8, has been suggested earlier in the thread, what would the engine change alone be worth in terms of increasing fuel efficiency?


6-8 percent. Not a big deal to low frequency or short haul carriers, but interesting if looking at 2-4 years of sales or if you’re ge and trying to pry USAF business longer term.


GE claims 15% lower fuel burn compared to the CF6-80C2, so even if you adjust for the higher drag and higher weight, it should be an advantage of 10-11%.

Genx 1B will surely see some PiPs while I am not sure much effort will be put into the CF6, so the gap should widen over time and could reach 12%+ by 2020+.
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:57 am

Keep in mind I don’t think this was Boeing’s idea in the first place. A customer has come to them saying “Hey, we really need some new 767s to tide us over until the 797. If you could do that it would be swell”. Boeing: “Hmmm... we can’t promise anything but we’ll see if that’s doable and get back to you”.
If they find it is doable then obviously some very conditional wheeling and dealing needs be done.
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DLHAM
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:36 pm

I could imagine a 767-300 with 747-8 engines (should fit under the wing without landing gear mods?). They could use raked wingtips like the 767-400, also 767-400 style windows and cabin and a 787 glass cockpit. So basically a shortened 767-400 with 747-8 engines and 787 flight deck. Add lighter CFK materials here and there (where possible) and they have a wonderful 767 replacement which should not be too costly. They would have something on offer until a MOM arrives. (+ It would be superior to the much heavier A330 Neo for Airlines who dont need that extra capacity, which should be a lot looking at the Atlantic).

For a interim 757 replacement they could also build a 767-200 MAX the same way, which would be heavier than a A321LR but take a few more passengers and far more cargo. But I dont know if that one would be competitive due to the extra Kilos versus an A321. Would be another 737MAX7/A319neo/A330-800 etc. The A321 has become a real problem for Boeing.
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:12 pm

rgustafson wrote:
With new engines, a new cockpit, 787 windows and upgraded electric and mechanical systems, the 767X just might be very attractive to some carriers. .

They do not want to wait as long as it will take to get all of that designed, built, tested and cerfified, and they do not want to have to pay for those things either.

They just want some cheap and cheerful lift. If they wanted all that tech and were willing to pay for it, they'd be buying 787/A350/A330neo or wait for MOM.
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wezgulf3
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
rgustafson wrote:
With new engines, a new cockpit, 787 windows and upgraded electric and mechanical systems, the 767X just might be very attractive to some carriers. .

They do not want to wait as long as it will take to get all of that designed, built, tested and cerfified, and they do not want to have to pay for those things either.

They just want some cheap and cheerful lift. If they wanted all that tech and were willing to pay for it, they'd be buying 787/A350/A330neo or wait for MOM.


Could not agree with you more, it’s been pretty funny seeing all these expensive and time consuming ideas being thrown around as if it’s no problem, but would make any chance if the 767 starting up again pointless.

Wes...
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
rgustafson wrote:
With new engines, a new cockpit, 787 windows and upgraded electric and mechanical systems, the 767X just might be very attractive to some carriers. .

They do not want to wait as long as it will take to get all of that designed, built, tested and cerfified, and they do not want to have to pay for those things either.

They just want some cheap and cheerful lift. If they wanted all that tech and were willing to pay for it, they'd be buying 787/A350/A330neo or wait for MOM.


The cockpit for the 767-2F already exists and is FAA certified. The 767-400 used 777 windows. The mechanical systems probably don't need to be any different than new build 767F's. One of the articles linked to this thread suggested new engines might be part of the offering. Perhaps you should read the linked articles.
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:40 pm

Question: do GE and Pratt have updated engines available for this potential project? UAL’s 763s use the CF6-80C2B or Pratt & Whitney PW4060 (from UAL’s website). Given that this is apparently a quick and dirty refresh/update, instead of going for an entirely new engine (as I had originally hoped), perhaps an updated version of the existing engine might offer better fuel economy and speed certification issues as the weights would presumably be similar between new and old engines, and therefore serious structural modification to the wing and wingbox probably wouldn’t have to be made. Being based upon the earlier engines, it may also help with spare parts and maintenance costs. This would presumably also be attractive to any freight operators who would take the frames later. They aren’t as susceptible to fuel cost issues, but any savings is a good savings, right?

Any ideas?
 
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:19 pm

wezgulf3 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
rgustafson wrote:
With new engines, a new cockpit, 787 windows and upgraded electric and mechanical systems, the 767X just might be very attractive to some carriers. .

They do not want to wait as long as it will take to get all of that designed, built, tested and cerfified, and they do not want to have to pay for those things either.

They just want some cheap and cheerful lift. If they wanted all that tech and were willing to pay for it, they'd be buying 787/A350/A330neo or wait for MOM.


Could not agree with you more, it’s been pretty funny seeing all these expensive and time consuming ideas being thrown around as if it’s no problem, but would make any chance if the 767 starting up again pointless.

Wes...


I agree some of the proposals are going too far, and doing them would push the EIS date out many years and miss this window of opportunity. I just like a new engine option that would yield perhaps 5-8 percent reduced fuel burn and don't worry about having a 7000-8000 mile range. 5000 mile range would do all that the current 767's are doing and go longer than 757's and A321's.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:45 pm

If the A330-200 killed anything, it's the B767-400ER. Those two aircraft are nearly identical in size, but the Airbus had the leg up in terms of range. A new and/or refreshed 767-300 would receive tons of interest from passenger and cargo airlines alike. The 763 has proven itself already as a phenomenal trans-Atlantic aircraft and a freight hauler for dozens of airlines. If it does get another chance at life, I see potential from AA, UA, BA, DL, EI, HA...just to name a few.
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:56 pm

For most of their competitive life, the A330-200 outsold the 767-300ER by around 3:2. Of course, that ratio improved in favor of the A330 once the 7E7/787 was launched and fell into her development and production issues as the pent-up demand for a long-range small narrowbody could only really be filled by the A330-200 and 767 passenger sales were predominately compensation frames to 767 operators who were also 787 customers.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:03 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Question: do GE and Pratt have updated engines available for this potential project? UAL’s 763s use the CF6-80C2B or Pratt & Whitney PW4060 (from UAL’s website). Given that this is apparently a quick and dirty refresh/update, instead of going for an entirely new engine (as I had originally hoped), perhaps an updated version of the existing engine might offer better fuel economy and speed certification issues as the weights would presumably be similar between new and old engines, and therefore serious structural modification to the wing and wingbox probably wouldn’t have to be made. Being based upon the earlier engines, it may also help with spare parts and maintenance costs. This would presumably also be attractive to any freight operators who would take the frames later. They aren’t as susceptible to fuel cost issues, but any savings is a good savings, right?

Nope, no one has invested in the existing 767 engine tech for a long time.

We thought that generation of engines might get a refresh for the various USAF tanker bids, but no one could ever produce any evidence that they had.

The USAF procurement was all about the cheapest price, and investing more in engines to get lower lifetime cost didn't "pencil out" as far as we know.

So, as far as we know, the 767s rolling out of KPAE for the USAF, FX and 5X all have bog standard engines on them.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
So, as far as we know, the 767s rolling out of KPAE for the USAF, FX and 5X all have bog standard engines on them.


Yes, they have the current spec of the respective GE CF-6-80 and PW4000 engine. The USAF chose not to invest into a new engine option for the airframes and they are the only ones with enough frames and money to justify such an investment.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:53 pm

So, after the 737 MAX, we shall see the 767 SAME, I guess…
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