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CX747
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:10 pm

There definitely is a lot of information being thrown around. I'm not sure if anyone is reading other's posts.

A customer came to Boeing looking to potentially order 50+ 767-300ERs. Boeing called suppliers to see what that would look like. In addition, they laid out an increased production line with an actual cut back date.

One of the articles mentioned there might be some updates to the airframe but that paragraphs was more of an author's thoughts than known information.

More than likely United and someone else want to buy 50 767-300ERs as interim lift and then launch the 797.
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redroo
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:58 pm

This thread is fascinating.

If Boeing did sell some pax 767, why would they bother with the proposed 797? Could they not just keep the 767 and "refresh it" as others have suggested. Like they have done with the 737 over the years. If the basic design is fine why clean sheet it?
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:04 pm

Why bother with a 767NEO when a 757NEO is what the market is looking for. A 757NEO that could do DTW-SCL/EZE/GIG/IST/KIX would rock!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:04 pm

redroo wrote:
This thread is fascinating.

If Boeing did sell some pax 767, why would they bother with the proposed 797? Could they not just keep the 767 and "refresh it" as others have suggested. Like they have done with the 737 over the years. If the basic design is fine why clean sheet it?

Because the basic design isn't fine for opening entire new city pairs as Boeing says MOM will do, it's fine for dirt cheap lift for airlines that already have large 767 fleets and need a bridge to the MOM.
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scotron11
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:16 pm

Isn't quite simple then? All Boeing is doing is responding to a request from a customer. Answer will be either yes or no...no need for new engines...wings....I think the big question is if there is a guarantee that this 60 frames can be converted to a freighter? \Who can predict 5-10 yrs from now what the demand will be.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:22 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
Why bother with a 767NEO when a 757NEO is what the market is looking for. A 757NEO that could do DTW-SCL/EZE/GIG/IST/KIX would rock!


DTW-KIX? Huh?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:28 pm

PPVRA wrote:
You’d think replacing the 737 would be a higher priority than the MoM


Why would that be? They have a huge backlog that will run the line for years. That make the 737 replacement not a priority. They need to fill the gap or they give it all to airbus.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:30 pm

rbavfan wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
You’d think replacing the 737 would be a higher priority than the MoM


Why would that be? They have a huge backlog that will run the line for years. That make the 737 replacement not a priority. They need to fill the gap or they give it all to airbus.


Everyone likes to pretend the 737 is a problem when it isn’t. Until someone changes the physical arrangement of airframes there is zero incentive to replace either the 737 or the A320.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:33 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
Why bother with a 767NEO when a 757NEO is what the market is looking for. A 757NEO that could do DTW-SCL/EZE/GIG/IST/KIX would rock!



DTW-KIX is beyond the 5000nm MOM range, much less a 757neo which would have to have replacement equiptment as it no longer exist. Would make it to expensive to build. If they still had the manufacturing components maybe, but it's dead.
 
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s.p.a.s.
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:47 pm

Anything other than some minor aerodynamic tweaks and updated flight deck (like the one used by FedEx) would mean huge re-certification costs. New engines could mean new pylons, new integration with the existing wing, possible new wiring and control boxes, this assuming a change on the landing gear is not needed.
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rbavfan
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:50 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
Why bother with a 767NEO when a 757NEO is what the market is looking for. A 757NEO that could do DTW-SCL/EZE/GIG/IST/KIX would rock!



DTW-KIX is beyond the 5000nm MOM range, much less a 757neo which would have to have replacement equiptment as it no longer exist. Would make it to expensive to build. If they still had the manufacturing components maybe, but it's dead.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:38 pm

redroo wrote:
This thread is fascinating.

If Boeing did sell some pax 767, why would they bother with the proposed 797? Could they not just keep the 767 and "refresh it" as others have suggested. Like they have done with the 737 over the years. If the basic design is fine why clean sheet it?


If the fuselage width was perfect, new much smaller lighter wing and engines would make sense.

But you are still left with a wide 7 abreast cabin. Every percent of efficiency counts. If it was only 4-5% wider it could fit 8 abreast which is 15% more seats. That is a free 10% efficiency.

So it would be easier to just go clean sheet, as new designs have much fewer parts.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:39 pm

Hey guys,
Yep, a minimum modified 767-300ER, with perhaps new winglets... Seems the way to go.
Perhaps Boeing has organised the response to the airline's approach like this....
(1) no mods 767-3
(2) minimum mods 767-3 with winglets and Sky interior
(3) major mods 767-3 with the above and new cockpit and possibly larger Windows
(4) MAX mods 767-3 with all of the above plus new engines and aerodynamic improvements....
All with a money-back guarantee to be converted into freighters if u buy at least 50 797s with another 50 or so options as part of the deal.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
ikramerica
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:44 pm

The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:47 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
Why bother with a 767NEO when a 757NEO is what the market is looking for. A 757NEO that could do DTW-SCL/EZE/GIG/IST/KIX would rock!


From what I know, the 757-200 (approx 220 pax) is the largest a narrowbody can get whilst still being efficient (due to turnaround times), whereas the smallest a widebody can be before narrowbodies are cheaper is about 240 pax.

I think this is one of the reasons the MOM space (generally defined as 200-250 pax at 4000-5300nmi) is challenging... it would require two aircraft families to service properly really... a new 757-type craft (large narrowbodies capable of medium range) and a new non-ER-767-type craft (small widebody that is optimized for shorter ranges).
 
iahcsr
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:00 am

Aircellist wrote:
So, after the 737 MAX, we shall see the 767 SAME, I guess…

767 SAME is all the customer(s) want, so that is what they will get... IF Boeing can make it happen.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:10 am

ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:41 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.


GEnx-2B on the 748 has basically the same diameter as the CF6 on the 767 and 744.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:43 am

Does it seem like Boeing became complacent? They either never bothered to upgrade their line up or did it too late. For example the 747,757,767 should have been upgraded. Seems like the only airplane they put an effort into was the 737. It took them almost 20 years to deliver a new airplane. Maybe they could have developed two planes with 787 like the 767/757. I know 9/11 really hit aviation hard however Airbus had the same circumstance. They are beating Boeing with the 330&321. I wonder who took over who did Boeing take over MD or the other way around.
 
masonh2479
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:49 am

Put the 767 and 757 back into production with a max variant. Keep them in production until the 797 is ready or after if demand is strong. Boeing pulled the plug on the 757 way to soon, A321 is the sole keeper of the market now.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:00 am

Hey guys,
I wonder if the 767SAME idea was floated to Alan Joyce a week ago when the heads of Qantas were in Seattle accepting the first QF 787? He mentioned the MAX and the MoM / 797 publicly. I don't think that a potential 767SAME would be of any real interest to QF, for QF mainline .... But what about Jetstar?
As a slight tangent, years ago Boeing offered a '767-500' to QF for ultra long haul. Short -200ER fuselage with -400ER wing, engines and weights... It was briefly mentioned in an Australian aviation magazine and then never heard of again!
Cheers,
Bunumuring
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adambrau
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:04 am

If this 763 SAME comes to United I hope it will incorporate better sound insulation than the one I flew on from London last Monday!
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bigjku
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:20 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Does it seem like Boeing became complacent? They either never bothered to upgrade their line up or did it too late. For example the 747,757,767 should have been upgraded. Seems like the only airplane they put an effort into was the 737. It took them almost 20 years to deliver a new airplane. Maybe they could have developed two planes with 787 like the 767/757. I know 9/11 really hit aviation hard however Airbus had the same circumstance. They are beating Boeing with the 330&321. I wonder who took over who did Boeing take over MD or the other way around.


I am kind of curious what people want. Boeing is achieving record or near record deliveries and profitability. Sales remain strong. The 777, 787 and 737 all appear to be in good shape for the most part.

What else exactly is wanted here? Until someone takes the risk of redesigning the basic shape of an airliner there isn’t huge scope for risk taking.

What program should have been undertaken and why?
 
iahcsr
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:37 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
Yep, a minimum modified 767-300ER, with perhaps new winglets... Seems the way to go.
Perhaps Boeing has organised the response to the airline's approach like this....
(1) no mods 767-3
(2) minimum mods 767-3 with winglets and Sky interior
(3) major mods 767-3 with the above and new cockpit and possibly larger Windows
(4) MAX mods 767-3 with all of the above plus new engines and aerodynamic improvements....
All with a money-back guarantee to be converted into freighters if u buy at least 50 797s with another 50 or so options as part of the deal.
Cheers,
Bunumuring

My bet would be on #2 with the 797 rider.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
ikramerica
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:59 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.

You are right that it is longer and heavier but the fans are the same size. The Genx2b would actually be de rated on a 767 as well. The question would be would it be worth it? The added weight and carrying an oversized engine around. But then, considering the efficiency gains (25%)? even with same MTOW and carrying 3T less fuel the range would be extended 10-15%.

As for the pylon changes and wing stress and such, Boeing will have a baseline for that because the same change was made on the 747.
Last edited by ikramerica on Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cat3appr50
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:05 am

I agree with CX747’s post #351. IMO Boeing should secure and finalize a contract and build the required number of 767 (desired 300ER’s as noted by CX747) now on the current and additional 767 line to supply the immediate stop gap need for Airline(s) X.

In the meantime, Boeing should accelerate the work on a B797 MoM based design, incorporating (and optimizing) all of the great innovations to-date of the latest Boeing commercial aircraft designs. Surely the Airlines are going to expect the best available technology in an MoM aircraft in terms of aircraft performance, (including desired NM range) efficiency, reliability, passenger capacity and comfort, reasonable capital cost, ROI, and lowest fuel cost (lbs./seat-NM), etc. This can’t be done overnight, it takes engineering, design, optimization, construction, check out, testing, commercialization, regulatory approval, etc. time.

Fill the immediate market need now, and get moving quickly on the next level of aircraft technology (B797) to meet the industry near future MoM requirements. The competition is fierce. Boeing will therefore need to respond with a high sense of urgency and aggressively capture this MoM market segment, with yet another great, leading edge aircraft.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:17 am

Just crunching the numbers for an 8 abreast 767. We have 186inchs of cabin width.

Two 18inch aisles leaves 150inchs for seats. 11 1.5 inch arm rests leaves 133.5inch for 8 seats which equals 16.6inch seats. Tight.

Two 16inch aisles leaves 154inchs for seats.
11 1.5inch armrests leaves 137.5inch for 8 seats which equals 17.2inch seats.

That is less than an inch smaller than the 787 seats so the major airlines might accept it for short thick routes of 1-2 hours. It would be ideal for Melbourne to Sydney peak rush.

The genX-2B67 is simply too big. The 747 and 767 originally shared the same engine. But the 747-8 was much bigger. He genx Its 30% heavier with 20% more thrust. 10 years ago a trent 500 would have been a good upgrade. The 767 passenger version would probably be selling right now.
 
77H
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 am

While the prospect of a 767MAX/NEO is intriguing I don't see it happening for the following reasons.

From the articles and discussion on this thread it seems like 1 or possibly have small handful of customers have approached B about making new build 763s. The number I keep hearing is ~50 new builds.

R&D costs to MAX out the 767 would most likely exceed the purchase price B would get from the potential buyers at that number meaning a MAX would bring B a negative ROI.

While the "if you build it they will come" argument could be made, let's consider the substantial risk B takes on MAXing an aircraft no one may want anymore of outside the initial request by the mystery carrier. If the mystery carrier had said we'll take 50 767SAMEs b has no reason to bring it up. And if the mystery carrier brought it up, the order number would be a lot higher than 50.

As for a 767MAXs viability as a freighter, the freighter carriers don't seem as interested in the efficiency initiatives to the same degree the passenger carriers are. Hell, FX hasn't even refitted a single 763F with winglets and their the largest freight carrier. Given how most Freight Carriers use their 767F's I doubt the added range you'd expect from a MAX means much to them. And if efficiency was of paramount importance wouldn't we expect the FX and 5Xs of the world to be asking for a 787F ?

77H
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:04 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.

The only current version of GEnx with bleed capability and therefore compatible with the 767 is the GEnx-2B used on the 747-8 with a 105” fan. It weighs about 12000 pounds. The CF6-80C2 currently used on the 767 has a 106” fan. It weighs almost 10000 pounds. The added weight would likely be the only issue considering the only compatible version of GEnx has a smaller fan than the CF6.
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ikramerica
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:18 am

767333ER wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.

The only current version of GEnx with bleed capability and therefore compatible with the 767 is the GEnx-2B used on the 747-8 with a 105” fan. It weighs about 12000 pounds. The CF6-80C2 currently used on the 767 has a 106” fan. It weighs almost 10000 pounds. The added weight would likely be the only issue considering the only compatible version of GEnx has a smaller fan than the CF6.

It's also over a foot longer.

But back in the day there were myriad engines certified on the 747, different lengths and weights a slightly different diameters. It can't be that hard. The 767 was designed to take the same engines as the 747, which would also help.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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ADent
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:41 am

ikramerica wrote:
767333ER wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
But back in the day there were myriad engines certified on the 747, different lengths and weights a slightly different diameters. It can't be that hard. The 767 was designed to take the same engines as the 747, which would also help.


See viewtopic.php?t=763879 for some talk about operators swapping engines between 767s and 747s.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 am

767333ER wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
The genx is already a certified engine. The 763 is already certified. How hard is it to certify it on the 763? One assumes GE has at least some basic engineering done on how to slap the genx on the 767, A330, etc.

Would it take much longer than it would take to finalize the order from UA, restart the pax production chain and build them some aircraft?


The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.

The only current version of GEnx with bleed capability and therefore compatible with the 767 is the GEnx-2B used on the 747-8 with a 105” fan. It weighs about 12000 pounds. The CF6-80C2 currently used on the 767 has a 106” fan. It weighs almost 10000 pounds. The added weight would likely be the only issue considering the only compatible version of GEnx has a smaller fan than the CF6.


The CF6-80C2 has a fan diameter of 93 inch or 2.36 m. The 747-400 and the 767-300ER have interchangeable engines. The 747-8 is a bigger frame than the -400 with changed wings, so to assume interchangeability between the 747-8 and 767-300 in regards to engines is far fetched.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:18 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Does it seem like Boeing became complacent? They either never bothered to upgrade their line up or did it too late. For example the 747,757,767 should have been upgraded. Seems like the only airplane they put an effort into was the 737. It took them almost 20 years to deliver a new airplane. Maybe they could have developed two planes with 787 like the 767/757. I know 9/11 really hit aviation hard however Airbus had the same circumstance. They are beating Boeing with the 330&321. I wonder who took over who did Boeing take over MD or the other way around.


To say that Airbus is beating Boeing with the A330 is laughable. They aren’t exactly flying off the shelves.
Thanks and best Regards
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RalXWB
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:30 am

1342 A330s have left the shelves so far...right that is laughable :roll:
 
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RL777
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:40 am

Personally I believe this will quickly turn out to be a non story. Unless there is serious demand that we haven't heard about, I don't see Boeing wasting it's time and resources to retool the production lines for a dated aircraft.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:43 am

Maybe a 767X or MAX could be enough to fill the MoM gap, while costing less than an all new plane. I would be quicker and cheaper to make than an all new plane.

I always remember that the airlines were extremely price sensitive when it came to what they would be willing to pay for a MoM.
 
iahcsr
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:10 am

RL777 wrote:
Personally I believe this will quickly turn out to be a non story. Unless there is serious demand that we haven't heard about, I don't see Boeing wasting it's time and resources to retool the production lines for a dated aircraft.

No retooling is needed as the production line is still in operation... AFAIK 767 passenger aircraft are still in the book as available for purchase. All Boeing is asking suppliers is if it’s possible for them to ramp up the production rate on relatively short timeline.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
bunumuring
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:11 am

Hey guys,
Actually the more I think about it, the more I reckon it will be a 'no change' 767-300ER order if any at all...
Or! Could it be that the article was wrong and it's a 50-frame order for freighters? Unlikely considering the source : if it was a 'general media' outlet I would say it's more likely.
Maybe United simply enquired about a 50-frame order as ONE option in their considerations of a 767 replacement. Simply enquired and Boeing responded by making their own enquirers to suppliers. Perfectly understandable and the right course of action for both companies to take.
Maybe we will never know...
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
81819
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Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:12 am

Just a thought.

Maybe Boeing are still seeing demand for the 767 P2F in the 2023-2027 period and as such any planes used as MOM interim aircraft could ultimately be used as feed stock for 767 passenger to freighter conversions.

Even though I can't see an upgrade to next generation engines, it is quite probable a revitalised passenger variant would only be offered with a single engine type. Considering both UPS and FEDEX have opted for GE engines on their new build 767F's and Amazon are primarily taking GE engine aircraft as feedstock, having multiple engine choices would probably undermine the value proposition for Boeing and potential 767P2F conversions in the future.

Maybe a PIP or two would help get this aircraft across the line.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:19 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Does it seem like Boeing became complacent? They either never bothered to upgrade their line up or did it too late. For example the 747,757,767 should have been upgraded. Seems like the only airplane they put an effort into was the 737. It took them almost 20 years to deliver a new airplane. Maybe they could have developed two planes with 787 like the 767/757. I know 9/11 really hit aviation hard however Airbus had the same circumstance. They are beating Boeing with the 330&321. I wonder who took over who did Boeing take over MD or the other way around.


To say that Airbus is beating Boeing with the A330 is laughable. They aren’t exactly flying off the shelves.


The last 767-300ER ordered was in February 2012, 3 frames. 2011 were ordered 11 frames and 2010 1 frame.

Both the A330-200 and A330-300 were sold this year, 6 A330-200 and 4 330-300.
2017 were ordered net 8 A330
2016 were ordered net 83 A330
2015 were ordered net 136 A330
2014 were ordered net 154 A330
2013 were ordered net 69 A330
2012 were ordered net 58 A330
2011 were ordered net 85 A330
2010 were ordered net 62 A330
Together from 2010 til today 655 A330, 445 ceo and 210 neo. The ceo includes 27 MRTT and 42 freighters, that makes it 376 passenger A330ceo from 2010 til now.

If we look at all net orders for 767, including the freighter and KC-46
2017 15
2016 26
2015 49
2014 4
2013 2
2012 22
2011 42
2010 3, that makes it 166 orders for 767 most of them freighters. 15 passenger 767-300ER over that time.


Yes trying to compare sales of the passenger 767 in the last years with sales of passenger A330 is laughable.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1030
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 am

Yes, bring back the 767, but don't make it 2-4-2 seating. Not happy with the 787 3-3-3 seating or the 777 3-4-3 seating.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:54 am

If (if) there is an order for some additional 767-300ers from key US customers what does that mean for the possible 797?
These 767's would be to replace the oldest aircraft in the existing inventory.
Thus it stands to reason (I think) that it simply pushes back the 797 by a couple of years.
If Boeing (and engine suppliers) are not quite ready then this seems quite sensible.They rushed the 787and hit trouble.They are not rushing the 777x as a result (nor did Airbus with the 350).
Brand new aircraft and brand new engines is a huge undertaking so prudence would seem the correct strategy.If these potential 'top up' orders buy them the necessary breathing space so much the better.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:57 am

mjoelnir wrote:
767333ER wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:

The engines are different sizes with slightly different shapes and different thrust parameters. The pylon designs are different and they would have to go through a design and testing phase to see if the 767 existing wing structures could accommodate and last with the GenX engine. I don't recall the dimensions off hand but if the fan of the GenX is much larger, ground clearance could also be an issue.

The only current version of GEnx with bleed capability and therefore compatible with the 767 is the GEnx-2B used on the 747-8 with a 105” fan. It weighs about 12000 pounds. The CF6-80C2 currently used on the 767 has a 106” fan. It weighs almost 10000 pounds. The added weight would likely be the only issue considering the only compatible version of GEnx has a smaller fan than the CF6.


The CF6-80C2 has a fan diameter of 93 inch or 2.36 m. The 747-400 and the 767-300ER have interchangeable engines. The 747-8 is a bigger frame than the -400 with changed wings, so to assume interchangeability between the 747-8 and 767-300 in regards to engines is far fetched.

That makes more sense in terms of diameter. I didn't recall the CF6 having over 100" fan. It's overall diameter is 1" greater than the GEnx b2 fan diameter only. But the 767 has plenty of ground clearance and the extra 11" radius won't cause clearance issues.

The only point about 767/747 engine similarity is that any work done to adapt the genx to the 747 is useful for the 767 because their engine mounting and management systems are similar by design.

Is it worth it for max 15% added efficiency and 8% more range at max fuel, less than that at MZFW?
Last edited by ikramerica on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:03 pm

The only way I still see this happening is if they give them away. I mean REALLY give them away. Even with minimal development costs given the
line is still open, It's got to be a strategic move and nothing more. You know...basically to stop airbus packaging an order with something else.
Given Delta's aircraft history I am pretty sure we can rule them out. They'll happily snap up and overhaul A332's from companies like KLM disposing them
for more 787s, and probably get great prices on them. No this has got to be to stop something like United getting an interim deal on say A321LR's and 332s.

But as Delta has proven if the price is right... the extra fuel burn may not really matter all that much. I can't however see there being a huge profit in this for Boeing.
GE may be interested though in sharing development costs if it can see more GenX sales. After all it did offer the same thing to Airbus for the A330NEO
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 881
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
The only way I still see this happening is if they give them away. I mean REALLY give them away. Even with minimal development costs given the
line is still open, It's got to be a strategic move and nothing more. You know...basically to stop airbus packaging an order with something else.
Given Delta's aircraft history I am pretty sure we can rule them out. They'll happily snap up and overhaul A332's from companies like KLM disposing them
for more 787s, and probably get great prices on them. No this has got to be to stop something like United getting an interim deal on say A321LR's and 332s.

But as Delta has proven if the price is right... the extra fuel burn may not really matter all that much. I can't however see there being a huge profit in this for Boeing.
GE may be interested though in sharing development costs if it can see more GenX sales. After all it did offer the same thing to Airbus for the A330NEO

Yet another comment that fails to understand the situation here.

This has been repeated a few times in this thread. What is happening here is that a customer approached Boeing asking them whether they are able to build 767s, NOT a case of Boeing approaching a customer asking them to take 767s at a low price.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 881
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Does it seem like Boeing became complacent? They either never bothered to upgrade their line up or did it too late. For example the 747,757,767 should have been upgraded. Seems like the only airplane they put an effort into was the 737. It took them almost 20 years to deliver a new airplane. Maybe they could have developed two planes with 787 like the 767/757. I know 9/11 really hit aviation hard however Airbus had the same circumstance. They are beating Boeing with the 330&321. I wonder who took over who did Boeing take over MD or the other way around.


To say that Airbus is beating Boeing with the A330 is laughable. They aren’t exactly flying off the shelves.


The last 767-300ER ordered was in February 2012, 3 frames. 2011 were ordered 11 frames and 2010 1 frame.

Both the A330-200 and A330-300 were sold this year, 6 A330-200 and 4 330-300.
2017 were ordered net 8 A330
2016 were ordered net 83 A330
2015 were ordered net 136 A330
2014 were ordered net 154 A330
2013 were ordered net 69 A330
2012 were ordered net 58 A330
2011 were ordered net 85 A330
2010 were ordered net 62 A330
Together from 2010 til today 655 A330, 445 ceo and 210 neo. The ceo includes 27 MRTT and 42 freighters, that makes it 376 passenger A330ceo from 2010 til now.

If we look at all net orders for 767, including the freighter and KC-46
2017 15
2016 26
2015 49
2014 4
2013 2
2012 22
2011 42
2010 3, that makes it 166 orders for 767 most of them freighters. 15 passenger 767-300ER over that time.


Yes trying to compare sales of the passenger 767 in the last years with sales of passenger A330 is laughable.

Norice that the person you quoted didn't mention 767 in his comment? He merely said Boeing, there doesn't appear to be a comparison from him between the 767 and A330. And he is right because Boeing has the 787 in their line and in focusing their efforts on the 787 for pax planes. The sales between A & B so far for 2017 proves that the A330 is starting to lose a fair bit of whatever advantage it had over the 787.

Also, the effort by Boeing to focus on the 787 is part of the reason why this rumour about the 767 exists. Boeing did not expect anyone to approach them to ask for the 767 as a pax plane again, they expected customers to had considered the 787.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9851
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:18 pm

We do not know the whole request.

Maybe the customer said: "We would love 50 new 767-300ERs" or they said "if we are supposed to wait with replacing our 767 fleet until the 797 is ready after 2028, we need some 50 new 767s as a stop gap solution...."
 
brindabella
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:37 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Just crunching the numbers for an 8 abreast 767. We have 186inchs of cabin width.

Two 18inch aisles leaves 150inchs for seats. 11 1.5 inch arm rests leaves 133.5inch for 8 seats which equals 16.6inch seats. Tight.

Two 16inch aisles leaves 154inchs for seats.
11 1.5inch armrests leaves 137.5inch for 8 seats which equals 17.2inch seats.

That is less than an inch smaller than the 787 seats so the major airlines might accept it for short thick routes of 1-2 hours. It would be ideal for Melbourne to Sydney peak rush.

The genX-2B67 is simply too big. The 747 and 767 originally shared the same engine. But the 747-8 was much bigger. He genx Its 30% heavier with 20% more thrust. 10 years ago a trent 500 would have been a good upgrade. The 767 passenger version would probably be selling right now.


1) - maybe the extra 4" the Engineers found by thinning the walls for the 777X could also be used? Same fuse construction principles for 777Classic & 767, I would have thought.
2) - essential to keep costs down,IMO. However I wonder if the 8-abreast config (assisted by the 4" wall-thinning) could not be cheaply and easily enhanced by the techniques which have already boosted the passenger-counts in other types recently. Including space-efficient lavs, galleys etc.
cheers Bill
Billy
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:45 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:

To say that Airbus is beating Boeing with the A330 is laughable. They aren’t exactly flying off the shelves.


The last 767-300ER ordered was in February 2012, 3 frames. 2011 were ordered 11 frames and 2010 1 frame.

Both the A330-200 and A330-300 were sold this year, 6 A330-200 and 4 330-300.
2017 were ordered net 8 A330
2016 were ordered net 83 A330
2015 were ordered net 136 A330
2014 were ordered net 154 A330
2013 were ordered net 69 A330
2012 were ordered net 58 A330
2011 were ordered net 85 A330
2010 were ordered net 62 A330
Together from 2010 til today 655 A330, 445 ceo and 210 neo. The ceo includes 27 MRTT and 42 freighters, that makes it 376 passenger A330ceo from 2010 til now.

If we look at all net orders for 767, including the freighter and KC-46
2017 15
2016 26
2015 49
2014 4
2013 2
2012 22
2011 42
2010 3, that makes it 166 orders for 767 most of them freighters. 15 passenger 767-300ER over that time.


Yes trying to compare sales of the passenger 767 in the last years with sales of passenger A330 is laughable.

Norice that the person you quoted didn't mention 767 in his comment? He merely said Boeing, there doesn't appear to be a comparison from him between the 767 and A330. And he is right because Boeing has the 787 in their line and in focusing their efforts on the 787 for pax planes. The sales between A & B so far for 2017 proves that the A330 is starting to lose a fair bit of whatever advantage it had over the 787.

Also, the effort by Boeing to focus on the 787 is part of the reason why this rumour about the 767 exists. Boeing did not expect anyone to approach them to ask for the 767 as a pax plane again, they expected customers to had considered the 787.


This thread is about the 767. And if we talk about Boeing, than the A330 outsold over that same time frame, both the 787 and 767 combined.

2010 to current date
787 432 frame, 767 167 frames, together 599 frames both families all types,
A330 655 frames.

I would say that the A330 has been holding up quite well.

In this years the 787 had years with 0 or minus net sales. I would wait for one or two full years before declaring that A330 sales have dropped off.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 881
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

The last 767-300ER ordered was in February 2012, 3 frames. 2011 were ordered 11 frames and 2010 1 frame.

Both the A330-200 and A330-300 were sold this year, 6 A330-200 and 4 330-300.
2017 were ordered net 8 A330
2016 were ordered net 83 A330
2015 were ordered net 136 A330
2014 were ordered net 154 A330
2013 were ordered net 69 A330
2012 were ordered net 58 A330
2011 were ordered net 85 A330
2010 were ordered net 62 A330
Together from 2010 til today 655 A330, 445 ceo and 210 neo. The ceo includes 27 MRTT and 42 freighters, that makes it 376 passenger A330ceo from 2010 til now.

If we look at all net orders for 767, including the freighter and KC-46
2017 15
2016 26
2015 49
2014 4
2013 2
2012 22
2011 42
2010 3, that makes it 166 orders for 767 most of them freighters. 15 passenger 767-300ER over that time.


Yes trying to compare sales of the passenger 767 in the last years with sales of passenger A330 is laughable.

Norice that the person you quoted didn't mention 767 in his comment? He merely said Boeing, there doesn't appear to be a comparison from him between the 767 and A330. And he is right because Boeing has the 787 in their line and in focusing their efforts on the 787 for pax planes. The sales between A & B so far for 2017 proves that the A330 is starting to lose a fair bit of whatever advantage it had over the 787.

Also, the effort by Boeing to focus on the 787 is part of the reason why this rumour about the 767 exists. Boeing did not expect anyone to approach them to ask for the 767 as a pax plane again, they expected customers to had considered the 787.


This thread is about the 767. And if we talk about Boeing, than the A330 outsold over that same time frame, both the 787 and 767 combined.

2010 to current date
787 432 frame, 767 167 frames, together 599 frames both families all types,
A330 655 frames.

I would say that the A330 has been holding up quite well.

In this years the 787 had years with 0 or minus net sales. I would wait for one or two full years before declaring that A330 sales have dropped off.

You wouldn't need to wait a few more years for that, the rumours about A330neo customers reviewing their orders are not news Airbus would like to hear, even if it means more A350s in exchange for A330neos. The A330neo doesn't have the number of orders or broad range of customers that the 787 program on the whole has, and thus any such news has a bigger impact than say a similar news for the 787/350 programs.

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