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Airplanebrain
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Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:52 pm

Anyone ever get a picture of a Tupolev Tu-204 next to a 757-200, side-by-side? Would be interesting to see how they stack up next to each other. Always fascinated by planes that were copies or inspired by another.
 
Birdwatching
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:00 pm

The Tu-204 is not a copy of the 757. It was designed to fulfil about the same purpose as the 757, so it ended up looking like it. There is a concept called "form follows function". Basically it means if two people design an object that is intended to fulfil the same purpose then it will look similar. Have you ever wondered why all tea pots, forks, pickup trucks, pillow cases, railway tunnels, pencils, toothbrushes, cheerleaders, hardware stores... you name it... all look similar?

Going back to your original question, why not include an A321 and a 737-900 in that side by side comparison. They're clearly copies of the 757. Oh wait. They are not Russian... So they can't be copies.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:17 pm

There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:20 pm

^^
The konkordsky , how can you forget!
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ikolkyo
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:24 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:27 pm

Well about about the Tu-144 and Concorde
 
PA12
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:29 pm

Yes, they look alike, but if you look close enough you will see that the radome, the windshields, winglets, tailcone and the shape of the vertical stabilizer aré different, the 204's is wider at the top. The 75's is thinner and has more sweepback, and is prettier.
This is like those who also throw in the 321 to compare, look at what I mentioned and you will find the differences, and look at the main landing gear, almost all 321's have a single bogie (some aré double tandem) . The 204 and 75 aré double tandem.
Lots of people also confuse the A300 series with the 763. The tailcone, windshield and radome aré different, so aré the wings. Look at the trailing edge and the shape of the tailcone, which also changes the shape of the vertical stabilizer.
These are the details that stand out the most.
And people also used to get confused with the big 3 holers.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:46 pm

PA12 wrote:
Yes, they look alike, but if you look close enough you will see that the radome, the windshields, winglets, tailcone and the shape of the vertical stabilizer aré different, the 204's is wider at the top. The 75's is thinner and has more sweepback, and is prettier.
This is like those who also throw in the 321 to compare, look at what I mentioned and you will find the differences, and look at the main landing gear, almost all 321's have a single bogie (some aré double tandem) . The 204 and 75 aré double tandem.
Lots of people also confuse the A300 series with the 763. The tailcone, windshield and radome aré different, so aré the wings. Look at the trailing edge and the shape of the tailcone, which also changes the shape of the vertical stabilizer.
These are the details that stand out the most.
And people also used to get confused with the big 3 holers.


No A321s have double vogue gear, that was only IC’s A320s
 
Airplanebrain
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:11 pm

Thanks for the replies. The Tu-204 obviously isn't copy, just look at the cockpit, so don't take me literally. However, it does appear to be inspired by the 757. Would still love to see a picture of two parked next to each other.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:30 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.
I saw them both in regular service, and the only people who would confuse them are those who would also mistake a DC-8 for a B707. Or a BAC-1-11 for a DC-9. Or a Trident for a B727. And if there is anybody on this planet who thinks that I should have included a third tri-jet in that mix, let me just say that the Tu-154 is a fabulous BRUTE of a plane, that could never ever be mistaken for anything else.
I can understand that for many many people who quite possibly only saw occasional individual examples of either type in any of these pairings, they may appear outwardly similar. But that is all.

On the other hand, I despair for the lack of variety with today's machines. Between Boeing and Airbus, from the A318 right up to the B777, they are all just ...so alike! :duck:

Meanwhile, there is a bonus prize for anyone who can explain why you might sometimes mistake a Sud-Aviation SE.210 Caravelle for a De Havilland DH106 Comet.

Actually, thinking about it, the Tu-204 & 757 are indeed amazingly alike, and yet significantly different from all the other twins.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:56 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
[...]The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy.[...]


Other interesting rip-offs of about that era were the B-52 (military) and the 152 (civil). Although they did not plagiarise each other, both of them were copy cats of a certain common predecessor.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:13 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.

You mean the Tu-144 that flew before the Concorde ever did? So, which is the original and which is the copy? Or is it always the case that the "good" West makes the original, while the "bad" Russians make the copy, by default?
 
PA12
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:14 pm

You're correct, it was the 320's, not the 321, that belong to an airline in India. But look closely at what I told you to look for.
 
F27500
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:15 pm

WRONG! The TU-204 is a very obvious copy of the 757 ... right down to the door configuration. Anyone not seeing that "resemblance" is blind. Or doesn't wanna admit it.
 
PA12
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:16 pm

I never said they weren't a copy, but if you look closely you will be able to tell they apart.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:18 pm

The TU-144 flew before the Concorde! Could it be said the Boeing planed SST be a copy as well? The TU-144 I believe was a Russian design.
Last edited by georgiabill on Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:19 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.

You mean the Tu-144 that flew before the Concorde ever did? So, which is the original and which is the copy? Or is it always the case that the "good" West makes the original, while the "bad" Russians make the copy, by default?


http://www.history.com/news/the-cold-wa ... e-concorde
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:25 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.

You mean the Tu-144 that flew before the Concorde ever did? So, which is the original and which is the copy? Or is it always the case that the "good" West makes the original, while the "bad" Russians make the copy, by default?


http://www.history.com/news/the-cold-wa ... e-concorde

Yes? That very article confirms that the Tu-144 flew 3 months before the Concorde did. Was there industrial espionage? Sure. But do you think the US, UK, France, etc. are above using those tactics as well? Did the Soviet Union also copy the Sputnik, or Yuriy Gagarin's spaceship from the West?
 
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:28 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
You mean the Tu-144 that flew before the Concorde ever did? So, which is the original and which is the copy? Or is it always the case that the "good" West makes the original, while the "bad" Russians make the copy, by default?


http://www.history.com/news/the-cold-wa ... e-concorde

Yes? That very article confirms that the Tu-144 flew 3 months before the Concorde did. Was there industrial espionage? Sure. But do you think the US, UK, France, etc. are above using those tactics as well? Did the Soviet Union also copy the Sputnik, or Yuriy Gagarin's spaceship from the West?


Obviously I hit a soft spot in your heart so I'm just going to pull myself out of this discussion as it's more than just plane talk here.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:39 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


And wasn't there a Russian 'like for like' version of the DC-3/C-47 too ? Not just a slight resemblance but a licensed facsimile...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisunov_Li-2

Back to the topic though. I always felt that the TU-204 looked like a mash up of A321 and 757, as opposed to straight 757 rip off. The nose to me looks more Airbus than Boeing for sure.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:54 pm

JannEejit wrote:
And wasn't there a Russian 'like for like' version of the DC-3/C-47 too ? Not just a slight resemblance but a facsimile...

Definitely. It was known as the Lisunov Li-2
Image
The Russians built 5-6,000 of them.
And then there were the Japanese with their Showa/Nakajima L2D
Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:58 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Yes? That very article confirms that the Tu-144 flew 3 months before the Concorde did. Was there industrial espionage? Sure. But do you think the US, UK, France, etc. are above using those tactics as well? Did the Soviet Union also copy the Sputnik, or Yuriy Gagarin's spaceship from the West?


Obviously I hit a soft spot in your heart so I'm just going to pull myself out of this discussion as it's more than just plane talk here.

:roll:
 
VSMUT
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:03 pm

JannEejit wrote:
And wasn't there a Russian 'like for like' version of the DC-3/C-47 too ? Not just a slight resemblance but a licensed facsimile...


Yep, they manufactured the C-47 under license during the war as the Lisunov Li-2. They even turned it into a bomber and gave it defensive turrets. After the war it was developed into the tricycle-geared Il-12 and Il-14. Not a straight copy, but the DC-3 genes are obvious when comparing the shape of the nose and tail.

JannEejit wrote:
Back to the topic though. I always felt that the TU-204 looked like a mash up of A321 and 757, as opposed to straight 757 rip off. The nose to me looks more Airbus than Boeing for sure.


Except the Tu-204 is actually older than the A32X family, with development starting a few years before the Airbus ;)

PA12 wrote:
Yes, they look alike, but if you look close enough you will see... ...winglets


Not to mention that the Tu-204 had winglets 15 years before the 757 did. Another point, the 757 has two different fuselage diameters forward and aft of the wings. The Tu-204 only has one continuous diameter.

F27500 wrote:
WRONG! The TU-204 is a very obvious copy of the 757 ... right down to the door configuration. Anyone not seeing that "resemblance" is blind. Or doesn't wanna admit it.


Has it dawned on you yet that maybe the doors are placed where they are for the simple reason that that's just where the optimal position of the doors is, and that a certain amount of doors are required to satisfy certification requirements?

ikolkyo wrote:
Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.


So blatant that they placed the engines in a completely different spot, and gave it canards too, features that the Concorde is famous for... :scratchchin:
 
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Btblue
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:04 pm

Not forgetting...

TU 114

Image

And

Bae ATP

Image
 
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CaptSkibi
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:05 pm

This is the closest picture I can find to a Tu-204 and a Boeing 757-200 side-by-side.
Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / former frequent flyer with 9 straight years being elite on NW/DL
 
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Channex757
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:21 pm

Airplanebrain wrote:
Thanks for the replies. The Tu-204 obviously isn't copy, just look at the cockpit, so don't take me literally. However, it does appear to be inspired by the 757. Would still love to see a picture of two parked next to each other.

I've seen the real thing at SSH (one gate over from our 757) and was later gutted that I didn't get a picture. It was actually the Tu-214 variant but close enough.....

The way the Tu looks is much different to the Boeing I was getting off at the time. It looks much more solid. Obviously Russian designers build to the needs of the country and its climate, and the landing gear is much beefier than that on the 757. No inspiration there at all, it actually has more Tu-154 DNA in there than anything.

You have to be up close to understand the two planes just share a layout and nothing more. Form follows function.
 
F27500
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:51 pm

Russians spy ...Russia is a shady counry.

It should come as no surprise that they have copied the designs of other manufacturers. Why would they be SO obvious about it though ??

ATR, 146, F27 ... these are all planes they've ripped off the designs for .. keep denying it.

But look at the pic of the TU204 and 757 above and tell me that's not a stolen design.

Funny thing is .. the Russian copies are never as successful as the originals.
 
irelayer
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:56 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


Apparently even the bullet holes from the B29 were copied. LOL.

-IR
 
jordanh
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:02 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
You mean the Tu-144 that flew before the Concorde ever did? So, which is the original and which is the copy? Or is it always the case that the "good" West makes the original, while the "bad" Russians make the copy, by default?

http://www.history.com/news/the-cold-wa ... e-concorde

Yes? That very article confirms that the Tu-144 flew 3 months before the Concorde did. Was there industrial espionage? Sure. But do you think the US, UK, France, etc. are above using those tactics as well? Did the Soviet Union also copy the Sputnik, or Yuriy Gagarin's spaceship from the West?

The TU-144 was a blatant attempt to copy the Concorde; after stealing (or... maybe accidentally finding ;) ) as much information as someone could hide under a trench coat, the Russians rushed their copy into production as rapidly as they could, so they could crow about their ability to build the first passenger SST.

Their rush - while the Concorde was still undergoing testing - is surely responsible for the horrible result, when their first public display of the TU-144's abilities resulted in a disastrous crash at the Paris Air Show in 1973. It wasn't until 4 years later that the plane actually flew commercially, more than a year after the Concorde's commercial debut.

So you might say the TU-144 "came first"... but in a spectacularly unsuccessful fashion.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:12 am

The tu-204 isnt a copy of anything. There are other russian planes that are though, but its not like the west are squeaky clean either.
 
anrec80
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:15 am

F27500 wrote:
Russians spy ...Russia is a shady counry.

It should come as no surprise that they have copied the designs of other manufacturers. Why would they be SO obvious about it though ??

ATR, 146, F27 ... these are all planes they've ripped off the designs for .. keep denying it.

But look at the pic of the TU204 and 757 above and tell me that's not a stolen design.

Funny thing is .. the Russian copies are never as successful as the originals.


I wouldn’t call this design stolen obviously. Originally they intended it to be like its predecessor Tu-154 with 3 engines, and has the same fuselage width. Only later in development cycle they got PS-90A engines, and made it a twin. Also - it features fly-by-wire, and had winglets from day 1. Designed to fly 3-5 hour missions. Its economics is OK I’d say - on these missions somewhat lagging behind A-321. You can make $$$ with the type.

That’s when it files of course. Tupolev tried hard during all 2000s to rebuild maintenance processes and spare parts supply chains, but had limited successes. Their reliability during 90s and 2000s was also “legendary”. Another disadvantage - flight crew of 3.

Overall, if not the shortcomings in maintenance and 3 crew cockpit - this plane would have found its niche in 90s. Now - its time is gone. Let’s wait and hope its successor MS-21 does better. So far there is hope.
 
26point2
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:15 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Meanwhile, there is a bonus prize for anyone who can explain why you might sometimes mistake a Sud-Aviation SE.210 Caravelle for a De Havilland DH106 Comet.


The nose/cockpit windows arrangement looks nearly identical between Comet and Caravelle. I cant explain why this was done however.
 
sovietjet
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 am

All the "copies" you guys talk about are, if anything, superficial in nature. The aircraft that you claim as copies such as Il-62/VC-10 and Tu-144/Concorde are totally different on the inside, different engines, different avionics, different instruments, different wings and wing profiles, hell even stuff like flaps and windows! If you can't tell the difference between a Il-62 and a VC-10 then you're either clueless or not very observant or you are just ignorant. There are only so many different configurations that can be done. Is the B-727 a copy of the Trident? The DC-9 and BAC 1-11? Or it's only a copy if the Russians have a similar design? Get serious. A lot of original engineering solutions went into these planes on all sides. The only real copies are the B-29/Tu-4 and DC-3/Li-2.
 
Max Q
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:02 am

Yes it’s pretty much a copy



Like most Russian and Chinese aircraft
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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Btblue
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:05 am

The TU204 is a mix of the 757 and A320... The Russians clearly tried to copy them and built the 204. However they failed.
 
LH707330
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:18 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.

Nonsense, they had completely different design goals, and arguably the Il-62 was the better aircraft: http://www.vc10.net/History/Comp_il62.html
 
sovietjet
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:21 am

So, because the 204 has two engines under the wings and a similar capacity it's a copy? You guys have no idea how hard it is to actually copy something one for one. At best, the Russians said "hey, it seems like this configuration is economical, let's make an airplane similar to that as well". Except the engines were not as efficient, and the fall of the USSR ultimately lead to it failing.
 
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admanager
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:47 am

26point2 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Meanwhile, there is a bonus prize for anyone who can explain why you might sometimes mistake a Sud-Aviation SE.210 Caravelle for a De Havilland DH106 Comet.


The nose/cockpit windows arrangement looks nearly identical between Comet and Caravelle. I cant explain why this was done however.

Because DeHavilland was in a partnership with Sud-Est. The entire cockpit design was licensed directly from de Havilland's Comet.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:32 am

sovietjet wrote:
So, because the 204 has two engines under the wings and a similar capacity it's a copy? You guys have no idea how hard it is to actually copy something one for one. At best, the Russians said "hey, it seems like this configuration is economical, let's make an airplane similar to that as well". Except the engines were not as efficient, and the fall of the USSR ultimately lead to it failing.


Exactly.

Besides, the Germans came up with that concept before the US or GB ever did. They also came up with swept wing, variable sweep wing and forward swept wing before the U.S. did.

The U.S. copied clearly them.

Oh, and by the way, it was captured Germans who designed the Saturn V that got us to the moon.

Put this one in your pipe and smoke it: All new U.S. liquid fuel rocket engines now copy Russian/Soviet design philosophy because its superior. The Russians have been ahead of the US in liquid fuel rocket engine technology for decades. Pratt and Whitney recently admitted that Russia is 20 years ahead of the US in that technology.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:17 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
let me just say that the Tu-154 is a fabulous BRUTE of a plane, that could never ever be mistaken for anything else.


Nobody is talking about the Tu-154 here, so that's irrelevant. I was talking about the VC-10 and the IL-62.

VC-10


IL-62


Can't deny the similarity.
 
anrec80
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:31 am

sovietjet wrote:
So, because the 204 has two engines under the wings and a similar capacity it's a copy? You guys have no idea how hard it is to actually copy something one for one. At best, the Russians said "hey, it seems like this configuration is economical, let's make an airplane similar to that as well". Except the engines were not as efficient, and the fall of the USSR ultimately lead to it failing.


It's actually quite the opposite. The decision they made was similar to Airbus with IL-96 and Tu-204: "we have this 16t engine prototype, let's do a long range airliner with 4 engines and mid-range with two". So Tu-204 was basically designed around the engine they had available (PS-90). Even though Aeroflot at the time of design asked for something like 737 classic. Tu-204 was too much of an airplane for them - too big, too much range for most of their flying and too heavy. PS-90 is comparable to engines used on 757 (fuel consumption wise) - it was descent for its time. It was however too unreliable and too labor-intensive to maintain.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:52 am

F27500 wrote:
Russians spy ...Russia is a shady counry.

It should come as no surprise that they have copied the designs of other manufacturers. Why would they be SO obvious about it though ??

ATR, 146, F27 ... these are all planes they've ripped off the designs for .. keep denying it.

But look at the pic of the TU204 and 757 above and tell me that's not a stolen design.

Funny thing is .. the Russian copies are never as successful as the originals.

companies steal from each other all the time. For anyone to claim it is just Russia and China doing this is ignoring history. American car companies started copying Japanese designs and ideas. Corporate espionage is a big problem in every country.

Xenophobia should not be acceptable on any website.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2580
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:06 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.
I saw them both in regular service, and the only people who would confuse them are those who would also mistake a DC-8 for a B707. Or a BAC-1-11 for a DC-9. Or a Trident for a B727. And if there is anybody on this planet who thinks that I should have included a third tri-jet in that mix, let me just say that the Tu-154 is a fabulous BRUTE of a plane, that could never ever be mistaken for anything else.
I can understand that for many many people who quite possibly only saw occasional individual examples of either type in any of these pairings, they may appear outwardly similar. But that is all.

On the other hand, I despair for the lack of variety with today's machines. Between Boeing and Airbus, from the A318 right up to the B777, they are all just ...so alike! :duck:

Meanwhile, there is a bonus prize for anyone who can explain why you might sometimes mistake a Sud-Aviation SE.210 Caravelle for a De Havilland DH106 Comet.

Actually, thinking about it, the Tu-204 & 757 are indeed amazingly alike, and yet significantly different from all the other twins.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :champagne:

Amen! Thanks for speaking the gospel.
Finally someone over here who knows its things about civil aviation.
People who can't tell apart a DC-10 from a TriStar or an A300 from a 767 do not belong here. End of story. Sorry to be brutally honest, but it's just plain true. :stirthepot:

ps: that amazingly swept nose 'shared' by those two jewels you make reference to still gives me goosebumps to this day... fond memories of ORY back in the day.... :old:
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:10 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


The B-29 was 'reversed engineered', in a quasi-war scenario..
The VC-10 and IL-62 are only superficially similar: in reality they are very different machines.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:45 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I despair for the lack of variety with today's machines. Between Boeing and Airbus, from the A318 right up to the B777, they are all just ...so alike! :duck:

oldannyboy wrote:
Amen!
(I have brutally edited my original post, so I'm hoping the "Amen!" still applies)

Moving on...Let’s see if I can summarise the last 12 hours on this thread;

Several posters reminded us “Form follows function” :checkmark:
The Tu-144 was either a blatant copy of Concorde, or it borrowed ideas from the Boeing 2707 SST, or it was a unique Russian design. Take your pick!
The PS-84/ Lisunov Li-2 was a licensed copy of the DC-3, and even though it saw military service, it was not a copy of the C-47. (yes, I’m being pedantic, but I’m smiling too)

In post #24 Btblue provided us with some gorgeous photos of the visually similar Tu114 & Bae ATP. For that matter, the SAAB 340 looks like a ¾-scale model of the pair.

Going back to the three decades that the original HS748 was in production, only the YS-11 came close , and yet it seems such an “obvious” design. Up until then, Convair originally used that basic design with their piston-engined CV-240 family, but failed to follow that up with a turbine engine except for a short lived production run of CV-580/CV-640. This left an obvious gap.
In the end, the only competition was between the F27 and the HS748, and whilst nobody here would describe them as similar, from an airline operational viewpoint they fulfilled exactly the same function. When is a copy not a copy? (and yes, I know the F27 came first)

Then we have two or three posters who have a really low opinion of anything Russian. My thanks to b747400erf for his response. Xenophobia is such a lovely word!

At post #38 admanager gets the prize for noting that the DH Comet cockpit was grafted onto the SE210 Caravelle, in an era when anglo-french co-operation was a real novelty.
I'm fairly sure oldannyboy knows this too.

Patrick Z80 wrote:
“Nobody is talking about the Tu-154 here, so that's irrelevant. I was talking about the VC-10 and the IL-62”
Actually, you are wrong - several of us are talking about the Tu-154, just not in connection with the VC-10. For one thing, in case you hadn’t noticed, it’s only got three engines, which is why I bracketed it with the other two tri-jets.
Meanwhile back with the VC-10/Ilyushin IL-62 debate – check out the website mentioned in post #36 by LH707330. It is a seriously good read, and quite accurately debunks the Russian copy myth.
http://www.vc10.net/History/Comp_il62.html
If it’s any consolation, I’m sure absolutely everybody agrees with your end comment; “Can’t deny the similarity”

I suppose while we are at it, here’s another copy to consider.

If we ignore those scimitar props, did the A400M copy the Il-76. Or the C-17/C-141 family, or
the C-130/An-12 family? Or is it just another case of “Form follows function”?

Finally, here’s some pornography for oldannyboy
Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:21 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

I suppose while we are at it, here’s another copy to consider.

If we ignore those scimitar props, did the A400M copy the Il-76. Or the C-17/C-141 family, or
the C-130/An-12 family? Or is it just another case of “Form follows function”?



All military airlifters follow the same basic design... high wing, low fuselage, 4 engines (a few with 2 granted)... it is all due to the role defining the aircraft.

High wing provides easy clearance of ground obstacles and reduces FOD risk
Low fuselage for easier loading/unloading
4 engines for failsafe (lead poisoning is bad for engines as humans)

I mean C-130, C-133, AN-12, AN-22, AN-70, Shorts Belfast, A400M and so on... all the same basic design ideas in various sizes... switch to pure jets and YC-14, C-141, C-5, C-17, IL76, An-124... same thing...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:37 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.

Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.


Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.


Western bullcrap. Just because something looks like something (and there may have been *some* industrial espionage), does not mean it is a COPY.
 
jordanh
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:04 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
There have been some copies in the past, but the 757 / Tu-204 is not one of them.
Most famous is perhaps the VC-10 / IL-62. Looking so very similar, if you remove the paint you really have to look into the details to tell them apart. The most obvious copy however is the B-29 Superfortress / Tu-4, this is as far as I know also the only aircraft that is officially known to be a copy. It's so detailed they even copied the Boeing logo onto the Tupolev.

Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.

Western bullcrap. Just because something looks like something (and there may have been *some* industrial espionage), does not mean it is a COPY.

I think you contradict yourself: if there were no attempt to copy, then why the need for "some" industrial espionage? Just so someone can practice carrying secret paperwork under their trench coat? :roll:
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:13 pm

Although I agree copying goes on. The west are the worst for it. Just research the apple Iphone, windows - even going as far as the wheels on some western aircraft. The western thinking that everything we do is squeaky clean is wrong and people need to swallow pride.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Tupolev Tu-204 and 757 Side by Side

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:13 pm

jordanh wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Tu-144 was also a pretty blatant copy.

Western bullcrap. Just because something looks like something (and there may have been *some* industrial espionage), does not mean it is a COPY.

I think you contradict yourself: if there were no attempt to copy, then why the need for "some" industrial espionage? Just so someone can practice carrying secret paperwork under their trench coat? :roll:


Really?

Do you not think Boeing would not love to have full Airbus design specs or vice versa?

Knowing what your competitor is up to does not mean you are going to copy them 100% or at all. It merely gives you more information to decide if what you are working on will work out or not (competitively speaking).

Industrial espionage happens everywhere and in all industries.

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