GSP psgr
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How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:11 am

With the collapse of AirBerlin, OneWorld will return to having a gap in Central Europe; London, Madrid, and Dublin more than adequately cover the Western half of Europe, but has only Finnair and S7 to cover everything on the Central and Eastern half of the continent. Helsinki's geography leaves much to be desired, and S7's Moscow operations generally cover a limited niche.

Given all this, will we see OneWorld make a concerted effort to snag a significant addition to round out coverage in Europe? As for options:

-LOT has supposedly been less than happy with it's position in Star vis a vis the Lufthansa colossus, and their growing Warsaw hub would complement the BA reasonably well, and fill out missing gaps in Eastern Europe that can't be served profitably from London (examples: Minsk, Yerevan, and Tbilisi). It could be a win/win for both entities.

-SAS is also outside of the big UA/AC/LH joint venture, and Copenhagen is also a reasonably good fit as a Central European hub as OW is going to get at this stage and offers significant connectivity to North America and Asia from Central and Eastern Europe (although Finnair covers Asia well).

-CSA is outside of the big DL/KL/AF/VS JV and Prague would offer the best location for a niche Central European hub outside of Germany. BA's LHR services would fill a big hole for them on the LHR-PRG route, and AA will be flying PHL-PRG soon as a transatlantic link.

-OneWorld could also try to pick up a few smaller niche players like Adria, Aegean, Croatia, Bulgaria Air, or Tarom and go from there.

-BA/IAG could try to build out their own operation ala Deutsche BA in BER (when it's finished), but my guess is that this is less likely than trying to woo another carrier to within the OW fold. LH Group seems to be moving quickly to fill the gap anyways.
 
Kikko19
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:40 am

SAS is a star founder, IMHO won't change Jersey... Adria is star as well.
 
thgsr08
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:12 am

I 'm sure OW have enough support in Europe. Better search for a partner in Africa.
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Blankbarcode
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:35 am

My money is on LOT for the reasons already mentioned. SAS and CSA are already tied up with others, and they don't have much to gain from making a switch.

Croatia and Tarom while possible don't seem well prepared nor well positioned to take on the traffic.
 
kruiseri
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:25 am

Couldn't the existing OW members simply start a concentrated hub in BER or DUS ? eg Iberia, BA, Finnair all setup a joint effort there under their own brands, codeshare and well coordinated schedules. With European open skies that should be doable.

The whole purpose of such hub would be to channel PAX to MAD,LHR and HEL as well as intra Europe transit PAX eg FCO to BGO etc.
 
AIR MALTA
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:51 am

The fact that IAG didn't find to keep Niki shows they are not really interested in that market.

And to be honest, we haven't seen expansions of any alliance lately. So I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Cunard
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:16 am

But what market has ONEWORLD actually lost with the demise of Air Berlin.

The loss of those Eastern European routes who did they benefit its not as if Air Berlin flew multiple flights a day from Germany to LHR to connect with fellow ONEWORLD member British Airways.

It's more of the German home market that will miss Air Berlin but seriously how much did the airline contribute to ONEWORLD as an entity, in the grand scale of things I shouldn't imagine it accounted for much and there demise won't make such a huge dent in the connectivity of ONEWORLD.

I always thought that Air Berlin was a strange addition to ONEWORLD but on the other hand I thought Malev was a good addition but strange how things work out now that both airlines no longer exist.
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mwhcvt
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:05 am

I honestly think it's only a matter of time before IAG go after Wizz, I've believed this for a long time VY covers Western Europe well and Wizz covers Eastern Europe well with remarkably little overlap, they have almost identical fleet statergies so you could merge the two airlines And create a pan-European operation

Once done they could set up a base in Berlin possibly, additionally Berlin could also present an opportunity to expand Level into the long haul market

All this meaning IAG as a founder of one world could with some strategic moves solve the issues of Eastern Europe and the Alliance


Of course they could do none of this and just add some new markets to serve connections are existing OW Hubs
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oldannyboy
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:17 am

Honestly AB's presence was always very marginal and dubious within OW. I don't think anyone is wearing black armbands over at OW....
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:50 am

thgsr08 wrote:
I 'm sure OW have enough support in Europe. Better search for a partner in Africa.


Exactly. They need to fill this void. The problem is the players in Africa. Not exactly a lot to choose from. OW also needs to find a partner in India as well.
 
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seahawk
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:35 am

OW is not so much under pressure. BA works well for one stop long haul connections and Vueling/Iberia can serve many of the high traffic routes directly from their home market.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:50 am

I must say that I did not really see AB's impact on the OW alliance as that big of a deal. No disrespect to AB, I flew them quite a bit and was very happy with them, but on the whole, what did they contribute to the OW as a whole?

I think AB was brought in by AA/BA to hopefully allow them to tap more into the German market, particularly at Frankfurt, but AB did not expand their operations there and it became a "lackey" for Etihad unfortunately.

One can also ask what QR is doing in the alliance with their CEO at "War" with AA?
 
tphuang
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:15 am

I don't see the need for them to do anything. They have hubs in the 4 largest financial centers in the world and have massive premium over other alliances among premium flyers. There was a recent chart that showed this. Loosing air Berlin does not change that.
 
slowrambler
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:40 am

Oneworld does have a real issue with intra-Europe connectivity -their hubs are semi-useless for that. Unfortunately AB never really had the scale to viably compete with LH/LX/AF/KL.

Oneworld's great European failure was not getting LX while they had a chance...
 
YIMBY
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:00 pm

kruiseri wrote:
Couldn't the existing OW members simply start a concentrated hub in BER or DUS ? eg Iberia, BA, Finnair all setup a joint effort there under their own brands, codeshare and well coordinated schedules. With European open skies that should be doable.

The whole purpose of such hub would be to channel PAX to MAD,LHR and HEL as well as intra Europe transit PAX eg FCO to BGO etc.


That would be a nice idea, although I think they would need more connecting and reconnecting flights spread all around than a true hub. A problem is that BA, IB and AY fly from quite opposite directions and need different connections then. With a careful planning it might be possible, however, and possible long-haul flights by AA, JAL or LATAM and mid-haul flights by QR etc might give added value.
Once upon a time I remember when flying Iberia from Spain to DUS I could change to a synchronized code share flight from the next gate.

Discussing other airlines, LOT should be seduced to OW, and that would be the best for them as they seem to suffer in SA. I do not know if the explicit and implicit costs are prohibitive, though. Other airlines are too small to really matter, unless they change their strategy to take a role of central/eastern European feeder for OW instead of national or regional carrier. SK would not change alliance and AY might even oppose it (unless SK is acquired by IAG or AY which is unlikely).

Some one mentioned Africa. That is a void, and I see no airlines beyond Mediterranean region to fill the void. The only possibility is that some government allows a OW airline to have subsidiary there and some airline is brave enough to invest. Nevertheless, China and India are more important to cover.
 
commavia
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:14 pm

What void?

Air Berlin was a minor and inconsequential member of the alliance, anyway. Most of the value it brought to oneworld partners was through a few, targeted bilateral network connectivity relationships - and arguably the biggest of those bilateral relationships, with AA, was unilaterally cancelled with the other member, anyway. Otherwise, Air Berlin never really "fit" into most of the rest of the global oneworld network - in terms of significant linkages with partner hubs, significant partner presence at Air Berlin hubs, etc., there wasn't ever really much "there." And in terms of Germany point of sale, Air Berlin was almost certainly somewhat helpful, but still tiny compared to the dominant premium/corporate travel behemoth that is Lufthansa. Thus why, I suspect, Air Berlin's liquidation will have minimal effect on oneworld.
 
PanHAM
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:02 pm

As it was always done, by interlining. Service to the key cities in Germany is provided by the IAG hbs and if a Pax Needs to fly a Segment that is not served by an OW carrier, the ailine will most likely have an IL Agreement with LH wjich is based on reciprocality.
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mxaxai
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:36 pm

Air Berlin indeed was never as connected to Oneworld. They were not part of the IAG-AA-JV and nevertheless it was AB who got the greatest benefit out of the membership by codesharing on intra-US flights. I expect - or hope - that VY will fill the void slowly. Anyway, there isn't that large of a market they are missing out and as you go further east population density and economic wealth keep shrinking. It is mostly Germany, Poland and the south-eastern capitals like Prague or Budapest where a stronger presence might be beneficial.
 
TYCOON
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:07 pm

On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig
 
jbs2886
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:18 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig


Its my understanding that the previous Alitalia technically dissolved and a new one was created.
 
ahj2000
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:30 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig

Continental and Northwest as well.
-Andrés Juánez
 
Swadian
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:39 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
I must say that I did not really see AB's impact on the OW alliance as that big of a deal. No disrespect to AB, I flew them quite a bit and was very happy with them, but on the whole, what did they contribute to the OW as a whole?

I think AB was brought in by AA/BA to hopefully allow them to tap more into the German market, particularly at Frankfurt, but AB did not expand their operations there and it became a "lackey" for Etihad unfortunately.

One can also ask what QR is doing in the alliance with their CEO at "War" with AA?


Is QR really at war with AA, though? I thought they were primarily at war with DL.

Without QR, oneWorld would be doing even worse in Africa.
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CXA330300
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:52 pm

I don't think OneWorld is mourning the loss too much. OneWorld's strong regions are Latin America, Japan, and Australia, none of which have huge passenger numbers into Central Europe. They're better off looking for African partners and building a stronger presence in Mainland China.

AirBerlin was marginal at best, and the connectivity was the worst in the alliance (along with S7).
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Mortyman
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:00 pm

GSP psgr wrote:

-SAS is also outside of the big UA/AC/LH joint venture, and Copenhagen is also a reasonably good fit as a Central European hub as OW is going to get at this stage and offers significant connectivity to North America and Asia from Central and Eastern Europe (although Finnair covers Asia well).


SAS is one of the five original founders of the Star Alliance. One of the tags in the star represents SAS. Why in the world would they leave ??!
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:05 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig

Continental and Northwest as well.


CO and NW filed for bankruptcy but kept flying. That's not the same as liquidation.
 
FSDan
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:20 pm

I could see it making sense for LOT to join OneWorld - seems like there would be benefits for both sides.
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Softaero
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 pm

If they are desperate for an airline with significant Central European operations, Vueling would be a quick and easy add, with its FCO hub.
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Obzerva
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:29 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig


Star Alliance: Ansett as well.
Oneworld also had Canadian Airlines
 
LupineChemist
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:34 pm

I would agree that they need to go after Africa. I would say they should go after TAAG that has good connectivity to JJ in S. America and could easily add a flight to Madrid and London.

Within Europe, IAG really needs to get control of Finnair and that will be a huge plus for all of OneWorld.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:33 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig

It has had the most financially stable members. A case could be made for Alitalia since the airline flying now is merely a reincarnation of the old Alitalia. I tend to view the current Alitalia as nothing more than the old one under new management so it never made sense to list it as a new member.

ahj2000 wrote:
Continental and Northwest as well.
CO and NW at one time filed bankruptcy but it was reorganization. They ceased being SkyTeam members while still financially viable. In the case of NW, it merged with DL; in the case of CO, it voluntarily exited the alliance to cozy up with UA. Both scenarios are not liquidation.
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usflyer msp
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:52 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig


Don't forget Kingfisher - it went belly up while it was in the process of joining oneworld...
 
ahj2000
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:03 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
I would agree that they need to go after Africa. I would say they should go after TAAG that has good connectivity to JJ in S. America and could easily add a flight to Madrid and London.

Within Europe, IAG really needs to get control of Finnair and that will be a huge plus for all of OneWorld.

I would go for RAM over TAAG. Better connectivity for Europe and North America, as well as the same amount to Brasil. If I’m not mistaken they actually serve more places in Africa as well, outside of Angola.
Even Avíos member and Qatar JV partners.

Finnair doesn’t need to join IAG. It is already part of the OW JV and isn’t financially stable. If it took a dive, perhaps IAG would pick it up like Iberia.

Also, If Comair ever decided they didn’t want to operate as BA, there would be an African oneWorld member. :)

Finally, this’s probably the wrong spot, but doesn’t anyone know whether (la)TAM Paraguay is a oneWorld member yet?
-Andrés Juánez
 
UAPS
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:15 pm

i would say PS (UIA) better suit OW than OK/LO as PS can add 8 domestic and 10 central asia/caucasus destinatin- LO and OK can add much less; PS serve both LON and MAD/BCN and has HKG in plans. and main PS hasnt conflict like OK/LO has; both are members of * and sky- PS is free
 
KD5MDK
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:07 am

I'd worry about the state of the Ukraine economy.

SAS would compete too much with Finnair.
 
Obzerva
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:27 am

As AB was both in Onewoeld and an Etihad partner, how about Air Serbia?
 
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CARST
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:38 am

If I would be OneWorld I would be worrying about my state in Europe and ability to connect passengers in the short- and mid-haul market. Sure everyone of the players has the home market covered well, be it LHR, MAD, HEL or DME, but the rest of Europe is not covered well.

Also all these OneWorld hubs, from a European perspective are located at or near the outer boarders of Europe, which makes these hubs totally unusable for connecting traffic. AirBerlin gave OneWorld a hub in TXL, DUS, VIE and partly ZRH. This not only covered the German speaking market (Germany, Austria and party Switzerland), no, AB also covered a lot of the OneWorld connecting traffic through Europe. People from Scandinavia connected to the sunny destinations of Southern Europe. People from Eastern Europe connected to France or the Netherlands. Or to Germany. Or Austria. Or Switzerland. This is all lost now. Lufthansa through Eurowings and the LCCs, foremost EasyJet, will pick up this traffic now.

All alliance hubs:
Image

All alliance hubs separate:
Image

Just look at the images how bad located the OneWorld hubs are, versus the very well located hubs of SkyTeam and StarAlliance. It would be in the highest interest of OneWorld to try to gain back a share of the connecting traffic in Europe and from the Central European market in general. Even trying to get a foodhold in Germany via something like "Vueling / Level Germany" could achieve this. But the current situation can't be good for OW compared to the other two alliances...
 
Armodeen
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:33 am

AB were nobodies in OneWorld, I doubt they will really be missed, geography not withstanding.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:53 pm

Oneworld needs to poach from another alliance. I would say that LO, with its WAW hub and soon to be BUD focus city, would be ideal to poach. Elsewhere, I wonder if Air Astana and Royal Air Maroc would make good OW members.
 
sierra3tango
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:15 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
thgsr08 wrote:
I 'm sure OW have enough support in Europe. Better search for a partner in Africa.


Exactly. They need to fill this void. The problem is the players in Africa. Not exactly a lot to choose from. OW also needs to find a partner in India as well.


A bit off topic however, regarding Africa, BA does have Comair, with quite a few routes which are also in BA colours. Remember waiting a few years back at DAR for a flight to ZNZ & a 737 in BA colours turned up, which got me wondering. Presume they are not members of OW but it gives the impression of some African coverage which maybe will develop as SAA are nor exactly flourishing!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:24 pm

TYCOON wrote:
On a slightly different subject, it would appear Skyteam is the only one of the three alliances never to have a member go into liquidation or am I mistaken?
Oneworld: Air Berlin, Malev, Mexicana
Star Alliance: Spanair, Varig

Star Alliance also lost Ansett Australia to l liquidation, which forced Virgin Australia to expand rapidly beyond the 2-plane outfit it was when Ansett went kaput.
 
avek00
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:26 pm

YIMBY wrote:
kruiseri wrote:
Discussing other airlines, LOT should be seduced to OW, and that would be the best for them as they seem to suffer in SA.


LOT Polish suffers how, exactly? No other alliance comes close to offering LOT both the collaboration potential in key markets AND the freedom to act independently the airline currently enjoys as a member of the Star Alliance network. This fact is why the airline did not exit Star Alliance when it (like all Star members) had the opportunity to depart, no strings attached, a couple years ago.

Really, the thought that codesharing on 2 BA LON-WAW flights and 2 Finnair E190s makes up for the loss of partnering with the largest airline group in LOT's key Western Euro markets is truly laughable. Sorry about what happened to airberlin, but don't put that same fate upon the Poles.
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jasoncrh
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:59 pm

None of this matters. at all. Oneworld is a marketing organization made up of various airlines. NOt an airline in itself, nothing more. Most people fly whoever is nonstop at the lowest fare. Low yield leisure transit traffic within Europe is not what BA or IB or Finnair really care about. Nothing will be done. And guess what? Nothing will matter.

CARST wrote:
If I would be OneWorld I would be worrying about my state in Europe and ability to connect passengers in the short- and mid-haul market. Sure everyone of the players has the home market covered well, be it LHR, MAD, HEL or DME, but the rest of Europe is not covered well.

Also all these OneWorld hubs, from a European perspective are located at or near the outer boarders of Europe, which makes these hubs totally unusable for connecting traffic. AirBerlin gave OneWorld a hub in TXL, DUS, VIE and partly ZRH. This not only covered the German speaking market (Germany, Austria and party Switzerland), no, AB also covered a lot of the OneWorld connecting traffic through Europe. People from Scandinavia connected to the sunny destinations of Southern Europe. People from Eastern Europe connected to France or the Netherlands. Or to Germany. Or Austria. Or Switzerland. This is all lost now. Lufthansa through Eurowings and the LCCs, foremost EasyJet, will pick up this traffic now.

All alliance hubs:
Image

All alliance hubs separate:
Image

Just look at the images how bad located the OneWorld hubs are, versus the very well located hubs of SkyTeam and StarAlliance. It would be in the highest interest of OneWorld to try to gain back a share of the connecting traffic in Europe and from the Central European market in general. Even trying to get a foodhold in Germany via something like "Vueling / Level Germany" could achieve this. But the current situation can't be good for OW compared to the other two alliances...
 
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:33 pm

UAPS wrote:
i would say PS (UIA) better suit OW than OK/LO as PS can add 8 domestic and 10 central asia/caucasus destinatin- LO and OK can add much less; PS serve both LON and MAD/BCN and has HKG in plans. and main PS hasnt conflict like OK/LO has; both are members of * and sky- PS is free


There's the small problem of the whole Russia/Ukraine conflict still ongoing.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:58 am

Going off geography PRG certainly looks like an attractive hub site.
 
YIMBY
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:57 pm

CARST wrote:
Just look at the images how bad located the OneWorld hubs are, versus the very well located hubs of SkyTeam and StarAlliance. It would be in the highest interest of OneWorld to try to gain back a share of the connecting traffic in Europe and from the Central European market in general. Even trying to get a foodhold in Germany via something like "Vueling / Level Germany" could achieve this. But the current situation can't be good for OW compared to the other two alliances...


Looking at the images the oneWorld hubs seem to be much better located than SkyTeam and StarAlliance hubs, concerning long-haul short-haul transitions from Asia and Americas. They also serve well their partners Latam, American, Cathay and JAL. Qatar might disagree as there is no hub in south-east Europe.

Truly oneWorld lacks an intra-European hub for east-west and north-south traffic, but that is not that much related to alliances as most people tend to select the cheapest connection fitting their schedules. It is a completely another issue if some of the airlines wants to expand there, probably with another subsidiary that is not even associated to the alliance, and such may be welcome to bring competition.

I think that from all oneWorld airlines only Finnair and Qatar would miss a central (south/east) European hub.
 
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CARST
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:15 am

jasoncrh wrote:
None of this matters. at all. Oneworld is a marketing organization made up of various airlines. NOt an airline in itself, nothing more.


I know, but thanks for pointing that out...

jasoncrh wrote:
Most people fly whoever is nonstop at the lowest fare. Low yield leisure transit traffic within Europe is not what BA or IB or Finnair really care about.


If that would be true and if airlines like BA and IB would not care about the short haul segment, we wouldn't have seen the transformation of both into a LCC. Both now have HBO fares, both introduced buy onboard (BOB) and IAG as their parent company has set up Vueling as LCC to level the playing field with FR, U2, DY and W6; cost-wise that is.

And just to have a look at the other alliances in Europe, there we have AF-KL with Transavia and LH Group with Eurowings. That's all not speaking for the big, alliance-bound legacy airlines not caring about the LCC business and short-haul routes.

And perhaps, strongly underlining my point, on all these LCCs set up by legacy airlines (sometimes depending on the booking class) you can earn miles in the programs of these alliance members. Thus they even integrate the LCCs into their network and try to make their frequent flyers stay within the alliance. Even on shorthaul, "low yield, leisure traffic within Europe" as you call it.

Personally I would not call it like that BTW, because it totally leaves out how many business or VFR pax are on the thousands of LCC flights per day. It's not like FR sells all their tickets at 10 Euro.

jasoncrh wrote:
Nothing will be done. And guess what? Nothing will matter.


You might be right. For now. Personally I see a big market in the German speaking countries now not being covered well. LH is not interested in DUS and TXL. They command way higher prices since weeks, than they did before AB annouced their insolvency and this leaves a huge gap for one or more LCCs to jump into. And I see no reason why this couldn't be Transavia or Vueling; instead of the usual suspects FR, U2, DY, W6.

YIMBY wrote:
Looking at the images the oneWorld hubs seem to be much better located than SkyTeam and StarAlliance hubs, concerning long-haul short-haul transitions from Asia and Americas. They also serve well their partners Latam, American, Cathay and JAL. Qatar might disagree as there is no hub in south-east Europe.


That's only partly true. If we look at the airlines alone (and not at OneWorld overall), the passengers have to do a lot of backtracking to reach these hubs for one of the directions. Exampe: LHR is located perfectly to reach the Americas, but it involves a lot of backtracking if you want to go to Asia.

In comparision, a central European hub, usually only involves minimal backtracking. Also you are able to make use of it for connecting European cities in all directions by shuffling the pax through your hub. Exampe: HEL-FRA-NCE

YIMBY wrote:
Truly oneWorld lacks an intra-European hub for east-west and north-south traffic, but that is not that much related to alliances as most people tend to select the cheapest connection fitting their schedules. It is a completely another issue if some of the airlines wants to expand there, probably with another subsidiary that is not even associated to the alliance, and such may be welcome to bring competition.


See above, that is why many European legacies (especially within Oneworld) have transformed into LCCs themselves for shorthaul. And why they have set up their own LCCs. And that is why I see them giving up a lot of market in central Europe, which was covered by AB, could have been covered by e.g. Vueling and now will be left to LH Group and U2. At least that is how it looks for now...
 
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:39 am

sierra3tango wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
thgsr08 wrote:
I 'm sure OW have enough support in Europe. Better search for a partner in Africa.


Exactly. They need to fill this void. The problem is the players in Africa. Not exactly a lot to choose from. OW also needs to find a partner in India as well.


A bit off topic however, regarding Africa, BA does have Comair, with quite a few routes which are also in BA colours. Remember waiting a few years back at DAR for a flight to ZNZ & a 737 in BA colours turned up, which got me wondering. Presume they are not members of OW but it gives the impression of some African coverage which maybe will develop as SAA are nor exactly flourishing!


Comair was mentioned earlier in the thread.
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:59 pm

I'm surprised that many here think there won't be an impact. I think the impact is big, and I personally feel it. There's *very* little ability to fly to secondary cities in central Europe now. AY doesn't fly everywhere, and routing via London is a day trip. Swiss maybe can pick up some of the slack, and Finnair obviously... but then what? OW *does* need a low(ish) cost intra-EU airline.
 
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:59 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
I'm surprised that many here think there won't be an impact. I think the impact is big, and I personally feel it. There's *very* little ability to fly to secondary cities in central Europe now. AY doesn't fly everywhere, and routing via London is a day trip. Swiss maybe can pick up some of the slack, and Finnair obviously... but then what? OW *does* need a low(ish) cost intra-EU airline.


The choices are fairly limited:
a) a non-alliance carrier: airBaltic, Belavia, Ukraine International, Blue Air, Blue Panorama, Meridiana, Bulgaria Air, maybe some others
b) poach a carrier from another alliance, like LOT, as suggested earlier
c) invite a low-coster, like WizzAir

and BTW Swiss is firmly in Star Alliance, and within LH group actually.
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Re: How Will OneWorld Fill The AirBerlin Void?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:13 pm

I think this question really should have been asked when EY bought into AB. Since then AB and oneworld involvement has been pretty static.

Following that logic, what does oneworld need to do? Nothing. They were ok with AB being a token presence and still probably will be. Based on the hubs, OW looks to want to focus traffic from its hubs on the outer edge of Europe to the Americas and Asia, wheras ST and *A are more point to point.

Though it would be interesting to see what a central European hub could achieve for OW.

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