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thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:05 am

Can I assume that this thread is "air Canada in need of Boeing aircraft".?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:28 am

ytz wrote:
thumper76 wrote:
If Air Canada does what I am thinking (use airline using lcc business plan with the cs300 to compete against ulcc's) the cseries might just get some needed attention. Who better to trade in used a319's then airbus?


I don't think the CS300 can compete with the 737-8 MAX on CASM. Might be close enough and maybe Air Canada got their CS300 frames cheaply enough not to care about deploying the CS300 against Westjet and Sunwing flying MAX8s in mainline and LCC config respectively.

As for those A319s, are they even worth anything at this point? I doubt it.

The CS300 almost matches the A320NEO in CASM. So the CS300 does compete. The C-series had a rough and late start, but has an amazing leap forward in technology.

Lightsaber
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FabienA380
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:14 am

Is this the right time/thread to ask about the ATR42-600, that could be replacing the DH3?.............

With the ties Canada-Europe now, and Bombardier not offering any replacement to those DH3s, could Chorus(AC) decide to order some European planes that are already linked to Airbus?.........

Orders for DH3 replacements, plus some more to open more domestic routes.
:)
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:48 am

FabienA380 wrote:
Is this the right time/thread to ask about the ATR42-600, that could be replacing the DH3?.............

With the ties Canada-Europe now, and Bombardier not offering any replacement to those DH3s, could Chorus(AC) decide to order some European planes that are already linked to Airbus?.........

Orders for DH3 replacements, plus some more to open more domestic routes.
:)


The DH3’s are getting a huge upgrade, ANR, HGS, Cat III certification, WAAS LPV capabilities, it’s huge. They are going to stick around. According to the CPA, they can and likely will start to retire the DH1’s and CRJ200’s around 2019 ish, albeit slowly. It seems that they will be replaced by the DH3’s which in turn will be replaced by potentially more Q400’s. Any new orders will depend on what AC dictate. It is feasible that Jazz grows a little bit as GGN and EVAS begin to get pushed out by AC. First the B1900’s will go, and then who knows what. Those don’t all have to be replaced, but naturally, some will to maintain service levels. I expect it’s going to be quite fluid, with small, trickle down orders potentially coming here and there. Given the availability of Q400’s and CRJ900’s is reasonable, they don’t need to act immediately, they can gauge things as needed.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
Do Canadians care if Air Canada orders from Boeing after all this bullying?


Only AV geek Canadians and those that live in Quebec care. To everyone else, Bombardier is just a big corporation siphoning tax dollars.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Air Canada purchase Airbus products instead at this point in time, but Air Canada has already gone "all-in" with a mostly Boeing fleet.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:42 am

CXH wrote:

I know that the Bombardier Rail division is majorly behind schedule in supplying new street cars to the public transit authority in Toronto, so their name is mud in the centre-of-the-universe right now (a Canadian in-joke of Toronto vs. the rest of Canada!). Outside of Toronto, at least here in Vancouver, very few people are aware of that issue.



The funny thing is that Bombardier delivers trains to Vancouver on time.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:58 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do Canadians care if Air Canada orders from Boeing after all this bullying?


Only AV geek Canadians and those that live in Quebec care. To everyone else, Bombardier is just a big corporation siphoning tax dollars.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Air Canada purchase Airbus products instead at this point in time, but Air Canada has already gone "all-in" with a mostly Boeing fleet.


There isn't Canadian proud to have a huge (relatively) aviation industry, including building a/c themselves? When Fokker went down, there was indeed some grief to see one of the big Dutch companies go down in flames. And not just with aviation geeks like me ;-)

And with all the negative things coming from your southern neighbor, which hurts the Canadian economy, I can imagine that this would have been a theme everywhere, why would Boeing have placed a campaign for the general public? John Do doesn't buy Boeing planes, so I guess Boeing did want some positive views because they might being hurt and not just the 18 F/A-18E/F, that is nice, but if Air Canada would place its orders by Airbus, that would really hurt them. But I guess my assumptions where wrong, so it is good to challenge them now and again ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:21 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
CXH wrote:

I know that the Bombardier Rail division is majorly behind schedule in supplying new street cars to the public transit authority in Toronto, so their name is mud in the centre-of-the-universe right now (a Canadian in-joke of Toronto vs. the rest of Canada!). Outside of Toronto, at least here in Vancouver, very few people are aware of that issue.



The funny thing is that Bombardier delivers trains to Vancouver on time.

Partially because the local transit authority, Translink didn't order a highly customized train from Bombardier; it was basically, slap on Translink's paint job, and configure the interior and communications gear this way. The TTC requested a highly customized version of an existing street car design, with the invariable issues.
 
thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:37 pm

air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders. Oct 25 2017
mentioned aircraft were the max8 and the cseries.

earlier in September Air canada announced publicly that they intend to in the future use rouge to compete against the ulcc's after jetlines announced startup in 2018. This plan to use rouge (barely be able to call a lcc) to complete against a ulcc has intrigued me. Rouge is not set up to compete against ulcc's= major loss leader=? Would Air Canada be able to best compete against ulcc's with rouge using cs300 (less seats but more frequencies) to match all ulcc's markets and still make a profit with rouges model?

with airbus shutting down the a319, airbus still might want to get their hands on some low hour a319 airframes for future package deals. (air Canada has some lightly used a319's.. Trade?)

in Air Canada's announcement about competing with the new ulcc's, they mentioned they would let ulcc's get up and running before starting to compete in the market leading me to believe starting late 2018-2019. I believe air Canada is receiving the cs300 at that time!

If this is so... Flying within Canada and Canada to the US just got awesome!!!

Another thought.
If Air Canada rouge fly's the cseries on routes to the US at ulcc's seat prices and does well, would that not entice more US based airlines to push the US government to allow the cseries into the US? This could have been in the works for some time. Everyone would benefit from the passengers up, well maybe not Boeing :|

https://globalnews.ca/news/3760138/air- ... -low-cost/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-can ... -1.4370933

Note the global news release was sent out by air Canada as a knee jerk reaction to a possible significant change in Canadian aviation. Air Canada may have said more than they should have.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:15 pm

Apparently they are not exercising the options on the 13 787s anytime soon. Rumour was they were expiring this fall.

Whatever they’re doing seems to be working what with those Q3 results.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do Canadians care if Air Canada orders from Boeing after all this bullying?


Only AV geek Canadians and those that live in Quebec care. To everyone else, Bombardier is just a big corporation siphoning tax dollars.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Air Canada purchase Airbus products instead at this point in time, but Air Canada has already gone "all-in" with a mostly Boeing fleet.


There isn't Canadian proud to have a huge (relatively) aviation industry, including building a/c themselves? When Fokker went down, there was indeed some grief to see one of the big Dutch companies go down in flames. And not just with aviation geeks like me ;-)

And with all the negative things coming from your southern neighbor, which hurts the Canadian economy, I can imagine that this would have been a theme everywhere, why would Boeing have placed a campaign for the general public? John Do doesn't buy Boeing planes, so I guess Boeing did want some positive views because they might being hurt and not just the 18 F/A-18E/F, that is nice, but if Air Canada would place its orders by Airbus, that would really hurt them. But I guess my assumptions where wrong, so it is good to challenge them now and again ;-)

I am Canadian, I care
 
thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:17 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Apparently they are not exercising the options on the 13 787s anytime soon. Rumour was they were expiring this fall.

Whatever they’re doing seems to be working what with those Q3 results.

I believe Narrow bodies are the target
 
Leslieville
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:04 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
CXH wrote:

I know that the Bombardier Rail division is majorly behind schedule in supplying new street cars to the public transit authority in Toronto, so their name is mud in the centre-of-the-universe right now (a Canadian in-joke of Toronto vs. the rest of Canada!). Outside of Toronto, at least here in Vancouver, very few people are aware of that issue.



The funny thing is that Bombardier delivers trains to Vancouver on time.


Yeah, it's really just Toronto and its ridiculous custom streetcar gauge that is at the root of the problem for the TTC streetcar order. SkyTrain vehicles have been delivered on time and without issue to BC Transit and Translink, respectively, for decades. There are no "off the shelf" solutions for the TTC streetcars, and then they got pissed that not enough manufacturers bid for the contract. Bombardier's jury-rigged solution was the best the TTC could get and its baffling that there's been so much difficulty fulfilling the order.

The whole "Canadians hate Bombardier" thing isn't really true.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do Canadians care if Air Canada orders from Boeing after all this bullying?


Only AV geek Canadians and those that live in Quebec care. To everyone else, Bombardier is just a big corporation siphoning tax dollars.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Air Canada purchase Airbus products instead at this point in time, but Air Canada has already gone "all-in" with a mostly Boeing fleet.


There isn't Canadian proud to have a huge (relatively) aviation industry, including building a/c themselves? When Fokker went down, there was indeed some grief to see one of the big Dutch companies go down in flames. And not just with aviation geeks like me ;-)

And with all the negative things coming from your southern neighbor, which hurts the Canadian economy, I can imagine that this would have been a theme everywhere, why would Boeing have placed a campaign for the general public? John Do doesn't buy Boeing planes, so I guess Boeing did want some positive views because they might being hurt and not just the 18 F/A-18E/F, that is nice, but if Air Canada would place its orders by Airbus, that would really hurt them. But I guess my assumptions where wrong, so it is good to challenge them now and again ;-)

I know it's drifting off topic a bit, but I'm going to wade into this. I live in Western Canada, so I can share the perspective from here. There has always been resentment, out here, of anything from Quebec or Ontario. The feeling is that Quebec and Ontario get disproportionate attention from the federal government; Quebec and Ontario because they carry a disproportionately large number of votes, and especially Quebec because of how often they've threatened to separate from the rest of Canada. Thus, the feeling is that Bombardier has had way too much government support over the years. Amongst some people, the feeling is so strong that they would rather see the company fail, so that it is no longer there to be a drain on public funds. There's probably a little schadenfreude in there too.

As to pride… to sum it up, it's difficult for some people to have pride in something that happens several thousand kilometres away, in a part of the country which has repeatedly threatened to separate.

If you're out there reading comments on news sites, and you read angry "let them fail" comments, or you sense a lack of pride, the above is one of the sentiments you will encounter.

Just for the record, this is not how I personally feel. I love traveling to the far side of the globe and getting on a CRJ or Q400. I do feel pride. I also love being at foreign airports and seeing tails from AC, WS, and TS.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:00 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Be a great time for Air Canada to ditch some of the MAX options and go for the A321LR for what's left of the long-thin 767 routes.


Given that they have ordered both the MAX and Cseries I would be surprised to see NEOs as well. I would expect them to exercise existing options.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:18 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

Only AV geek Canadians and those that live in Quebec care. To everyone else, Bombardier is just a big corporation siphoning tax dollars.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Air Canada purchase Airbus products instead at this point in time, but Air Canada has already gone "all-in" with a mostly Boeing fleet.


There isn't Canadian proud to have a huge (relatively) aviation industry, including building a/c themselves? When Fokker went down, there was indeed some grief to see one of the big Dutch companies go down in flames. And not just with aviation geeks like me ;-)

And with all the negative things coming from your southern neighbor, which hurts the Canadian economy, I can imagine that this would have been a theme everywhere, why would Boeing have placed a campaign for the general public? John Do doesn't buy Boeing planes, so I guess Boeing did want some positive views because they might being hurt and not just the 18 F/A-18E/F, that is nice, but if Air Canada would place its orders by Airbus, that would really hurt them. But I guess my assumptions where wrong, so it is good to challenge them now and again ;-)

I know it's drifting off topic a bit, but I'm going to wade into this. I live in Western Canada, so I can share the perspective from here. There has always been resentment, out here, of anything from Quebec or Ontario. The feeling is that Quebec and Ontario get disproportionate attention from the federal government; Quebec and Ontario because they carry a disproportionately large number of votes, and especially Quebec because of how often they've threatened to separate from the rest of Canada. Thus, the feeling is that Bombardier has had way too much government support over the years. Amongst some people, the feeling is so strong that they would rather see the company fail, so that it is no longer there to be a drain on public funds. There's probably a little schadenfreude in there too.

As to pride… to sum it up, it's difficult for some people to have pride in something that happens several thousand kilometres away, in a part of the country which has repeatedly threatened to separate.

If you're out there reading comments on news sites, and you read angry "let them fail" comments, or you sense a lack of pride, the above is one of the sentiments you will encounter.

Just for the record, this is not how I personally feel. I love traveling to the far side of the globe and getting on a CRJ or Q400. I do feel pride. I also love being at foreign airports and seeing tails from AC, WS, and TS.


That is the exact sentiment I was surprised to read in comments on stories about Bombardier. I didn't realize how much hostility there was from Western Canada to east. Oil policy also seemed to play a role in it?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:28 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
Oil policy also seemed to play a role in it?


What do you mean? Which issue is this?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:58 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Apparently they are not exercising the options on the 13 787s anytime soon. Rumour was they were expiring this fall.

Whatever they’re doing seems to be working what with those Q3 results.


The options don’t expire for a while yet. They are trying to hold off as long as they can on them just because they make money as it is with the 767 and A330. Eventually they will likely take them up. I just wouldn’t expect it for a little while yet, maybe in a year or two. I’ve been told by people inside AC that they don’t expire for a while.
 
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
Oil policy also seemed to play a role in it?


What do you mean? Which issue is this?


Alberta (western province of Canada) heavily relies on oil exports for it's economy. The western most province (British Columbia) and an eastern province (Quebec) don't want oil pipelines (from Alberta) going through them in order to get to the ships on the coasts. British Columbia's economy relies more on tourism and the film industry, and they don't want to deal with the problem of potential spills. It doesn't help that British Columbia is mostly mountainous terrain with lakes/river that feed into drinking water reservoirs.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
Oil policy also seemed to play a role in it?


What do you mean? Which issue is this?

It appears that the Eastern Canadian states have opposed to building an oil pipeline from the west (Alberta). Meanwhile, the US is willing to have a pipeline from Alberta to Nebraska built. Such a strange situation where the US is friendlier to Alberta than the Eastern states.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:43 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
Oil policy also seemed to play a role in it?


What do you mean? Which issue is this?

It appears that the Eastern Canadian states have opposed to building an oil pipeline from the west (Alberta). Meanwhile, the US is willing to have a pipeline from Alberta to Nebraska built. Such a strange situation where the US is friendlier to Alberta than the Eastern states.


They're called provinces in Canada, not states, Energy East would have run through Quebec and New Brunswick, Quebec being the most opposed to it.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:11 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What do you mean? Which issue is this?

It appears that the Eastern Canadian states have opposed to building an oil pipeline from the west (Alberta). Meanwhile, the US is willing to have a pipeline from Alberta to Nebraska built. Such a strange situation where the US is friendlier to Alberta than the Eastern states.


They're called provinces in Canada, not states, Energy East would have run through Quebec and New Brunswick, Quebec being the most opposed to it.

It's NIMBY-ism on a national scale. And yet, everybody still wants gas to put in their vehicles. :roll:
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:11 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Be a great time for Air Canada to ditch some of the MAX options and go for the A321LR for what's left of the long-thin 767 routes.


Aside from flights between YYZ and other major Canadian cities to the west and to the Maritimes; flights to LAX, SFO and sometimes LGA; lately the 767s have been used on YYC-NRT, YHZ/YYT/YOW-LHR as well as YOW-FRA, YYZ-AMS & YUL-LYS. Which of those do you think could be better served with the Aitbus?


The A321LR can operate all those legs, except YYC-NRT.

YHZ/YOW/YYT-LHR & YOW-FRA are ideal A321LR routes. YYZ-AMS and YUL-LYS have the demand for larger equipment. I hope AC orders the plane !


True they can, but a 321LR is not ideal for YOW-LHR ever as it's a J-heavy route. YOW-FRA and YHZ-LHR in summer would both be leaving pax behind on a 321LR. In other words, just like the hub routes you cite, the demand is already there for the equipment that's already used. The 321LR though would be perfect for bringing YOW-FRA back up to year-round service. The 7M8 can cover anything a 321LR would to Europe from Atlantic Canada, including allowing for YHZ-LHR to be brought up to daily in winter.

Having said that, there are opportunities, such as the one I mentioned above, where the 321LR would be a perfect fit for AC.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:08 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Aside from flights between YYZ and other major Canadian cities to the west and to the Maritimes; flights to LAX, SFO and sometimes LGA; lately the 767s have been used on YYC-NRT, YHZ/YYT/YOW-LHR as well as YOW-FRA, YYZ-AMS & YUL-LYS. Which of those do you think could be better served with the Aitbus?


The A321LR can operate all those legs, except YYC-NRT.

YHZ/YOW/YYT-LHR & YOW-FRA are ideal A321LR routes. YYZ-AMS and YUL-LYS have the demand for larger equipment. I hope AC orders the plane !

:duck:
True they can, but a 321LR is not ideal for YOW-LHR ever as it's a J-heavy route. YOW-FRA and YHZ-LHR in summer would both be leaving pax behind on a 321LR. In other words, just like the hub routes you cite, the demand is already there for the equipment that's already used. The 321LR though would be perfect for bringing YOW-FRA back up to year-round service. The 7M8 can cover anything a 321LR would to Europe from Atlantic Canada, including allowing for YHZ-LHR to be brought up to daily in winter.

Having said that, there are opportunities, such as the one I mentioned above, where the 321LR would be a perfect fit for AC.

They could make it work like UA does right now with their 757s between IAD/EWR and LHR for example where they use a 757 along side the 767, 777, and 787 all in one day. Instead of operating one or two flights on large equipment and having nothing to fine tune capacity if the need to, they could use the A321LR to add or remove small amounts of capacity and/or increase frequency. They could easily make it work.

With that said I don’t think they would ever order such a plane, I wish they would, but I doubt it. I think we are stuck with 737s adnauseam in Canada unfortunately. :mad:

Integrating new A321s wouldn’t be hard for them if they could get them soon enough that the current A321 and possibly Rouge Airbus fleet is still in service. All the staff needed would be there.

One has to wonder if they are leaving the door cracked open for more Airbus products by keeping those A321s. After all, what can they do tha a 737 MAX can’t other than wear the livery better and offer superior comfort for all on board? :duck:
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:58 am

Another thing to consider is that Air Canada isn't happy with Airbus for some reason (sounds kind of like Air Canada made a frivolous lawsuit): http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-cana ... -1.3347461


Air Canada lawsuit accuses Airbus of negligence in Halifax crash landing


Airbus's negligence contributed to a crash landing at Halifax Stanfield International Airport two years ago, Air Canada claims in a lawsuit against the French aircraft manufacturer.

In a statement of claim filed in Nova Scotia Supreme Court, Air Canada (TSX:AC) said Airbus SAS failed to identify shortcomings of the Airbus 320.

The document said it did not advise that in certain conditions, the plane's flight path angle could be affected by external forces.

It also claims Airbus failed to incorporate a warning system to alert pilots to a deviation from the planned flight path angle.
"(Airbus) failed to provide adequate and/or accurate information as to how pilots should correct a deviation in the flight path in circumstances where manual intervention was required," the March 28 claim said.



That could explain Air Canada's Boeing / 737MAX preference? I'm afraid we won't be seeing any more Airbuses in the short term besides the "Air-bardier" CS300 :lol: . I don't think Air Canada ever envisioned getting CSeries planes delivered by Airbus. Air Canada was also one of the few large CSeries customers that haven't commented on the Airbus CSeries deal whereas Delta, Air Baltic, Lufthansa all released favorable statements.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:46 am

Air Canada is a business, it's not kindergarten.......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:20 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Another thing to consider is that Air Canada isn't happy with Airbus for some reason (sounds kind of like Air Canada made a frivolous lawsuit): http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-cana ... -1.3347461


Air Canada lawsuit accuses Airbus of negligence in Halifax crash landing


Airbus's negligence contributed to a crash landing at Halifax Stanfield International Airport two years ago, Air Canada claims in a lawsuit against the French aircraft manufacturer.

In a statement of claim filed in Nova Scotia Supreme Court, Air Canada (TSX:AC) said Airbus SAS failed to identify shortcomings of the Airbus 320.

The document said it did not advise that in certain conditions, the plane's flight path angle could be affected by external forces.

It also claims Airbus failed to incorporate a warning system to alert pilots to a deviation from the planned flight path angle.
"(Airbus) failed to provide adequate and/or accurate information as to how pilots should correct a deviation in the flight path in circumstances where manual intervention was required," the March 28 claim said.



That could explain Air Canada's Boeing / 737MAX preference? I'm afraid we won't be seeing any more Airbuses in the short term besides the "Air-bardier" CS300 :lol: . I don't think Air Canada ever envisioned getting CSeries planes delivered by Airbus. Air Canada was also one of the few large CSeries customers that haven't commented on the Airbus CSeries deal whereas Delta, Air Baltic, Lufthansa all released favorable statements.

Which is why they, by default, were days maybe hours away from signing a deal for new A320s and A321s until Boeing came with their fire sale price on 737s as well as the free 1-800-Got-Junk style service removing 20 unwanted aircraft. This is also why they are keeping those A321s and A330s around.

Let’s break it down another way, Air Canada since 1989 has had Airbus narrobodies which is about as long as Airbus has been making narrobodies. Before that they were a committed Douglas customer for narrowbody aircraft, At the time they were mainly committed to Boeing for widebody aircraft. They aslo picked up some airbus widebodies in 90s and 2000s. The got the A330 and A340. The A340 served its purpose until the superior, at least for their purposes, 777 came. They also ordered the 787 which came many years later than expected. The 787 when it was new was seen as superior to the A330 in terms of economics and capability which is why they were attracted to it. The A350 of the time was not the A350 of today and many airlines were critical of it. The A359 of today would stand more of a chance, but if they didn’t already have 777s. Other than the A330s it seems that Airbus never offered a widebody at the right time that would fit their fleet very well.

As for the narrowbodies, the A320neo was presumably going to be the way forward as it was going to be a nonevent to integrate into the fleet. It would’ve made everything so much easier than it will be with the 737. Keeping 15 or 20 regular A321s alongside neos, no big deal, but with the 737 replacing the rest of them, more of a big deal. Other than the engines, there isn’t really any difference between the 5 Rouge A321s and the neo or even between that and the 2 or 3 newer exAir France A321s for that matter so maintenance would have been mostly a non issue. They were also looking for a replacement for the E190 and A319 and the only thing that could do both is the CS300 so that was likely always on the table and the fate of the E190 was determined by that so they knew they would have to find a way to dump those. Come the time to order, as any airline would, they considered all options including the 737. They were supposedly days or so away from signing a deal with Airbus when Boeing came to them and said they would take just less than half of their E190s and give them cheap 737s. My guess is that they went back to Airbus and Airbus refused to match that offer so that was that. Had the CSeries been 50.01% owned by Airbus at the time, things may have been different. I don’t like to think there are any sour grapes here other than that they didn’t get the price they wanted on the plane they wanted and ended up with a cheaper product that will be more difficult to integrate into their fleet and will make their fleet more complicated at least for the “foreseeable future” that they will also have A321s.

Although Air Canada has not publicly stated anything on the CSeries partnership, they did state that they were troubled by Boeing’s push for the tariffs. I imagine they are happy by the idea that this will stabilize the program offering the plane they seem really excited to add to their fleet.
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
Air Canada is a business, it's not kindergarten.......


To be fair, many here were implying that Air Canada would order Airbus from now on because of Boeing's tariffs on the CSeries in the U.S. The same logic could be applied in the opposite direction. :P
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:59 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Air Canada is a business, it's not kindergarten.......


To be fair, many here were implying that Air Canada would order Airbus from now on because of Boeing's tariffs on the CSeries in the U.S. The same logic could be applied in the opposite direction. :P


Not exactly, if the Canadian population were against Boeing, for what irrational reasons it may be, then it would be a commercial reason, namely a marketing one. That's why I asked the question about the Canadian population.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Air Canada is a business, it's not kindergarten.......


To be fair, many here were implying that Air Canada would order Airbus from now on because of Boeing's tariffs on the CSeries in the U.S. The same logic could be applied in the opposite direction. :P


Not exactly, if the Canadian population were against Boeing, for what irrational reasons it may be, then it would be a commercial reason, namely a marketing one. That's why I asked the question about the Canadian population.


Nothing irrational about it, Boeing/US are being difficult at this time. It would appear the only recourse to cause change at this time would be to make a negative effect on bank accounts.reason went out the window! That being said Air Canada has to do what is right for air Canada, to bad Delta was hindered in doing what was right for themselves.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:10 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I hope they go with the C-series. Boeing is very much unloved in Canada right now. The "Boeing is great for Canada" marketing ads all over the Canadian media aren't working.


I wonder about this, but I have seen no public opinion polling to confirm this theory.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:57 pm

To understand Canada, one must understand that regionalism is the country's greatest problem.

The most vehement anti-Bombardier feelings are in Western Canada--Alberta in particular--where they are blended with general anti-Quebec sentiment. Decades ago, the Canadian federal government lavishly subsidized the development of technology to enable the development of oil production from the bitumen sands of Northern Alberta. Once the technology was perfected with government assistance, it became a thriving industry that has brought great prosperity to the province. At that point, Albertans became deeply morally opposed to the idea of government support for developing new technologies and businesses. They are outraged by the idea that the federal government would fund the development of technology to enable a thriving aerospace industry to bring prosperity to another part of the country.
 
MapleLeaf789
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:52 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
MapleLeaf789 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

I think the 7M8 too and they specifically mentioned that. I think AC are just beginning to realize how many possible 7M8 transatlantic routes they can open up. Not only out of YYZ and YUL, but opening thinner routes out of secondary markets like YOW/YQB-CDG for example.


I have felt this for a while now re: expansion.

I think AC is set to grow considerably over the next decade.

I think they are also starting to really appreciate the possibilities of Canadian airports for connections. If this goes through, I wonder if it's the push that will get the final pier completed at Pearson?


The whole pier issue at YYZ is an interesting one. They just built a new ground level pier where the new main pier is supposed to be, opened a few weeks ago, used for regional flights and such. I get the feeling this new pier has been put off indefinitely because they can’t lose the regional pier. They have started handstand loading and unloading for T1 international flights at the H stands, I think their best option at this point would be to build more permanent structures, much like LAX had before TBIT to act as satellite boarding stands. T3 is also woefully inadequate, not to mention WS is poised to grow quite significantly as well. There isn’t really any space to grow T3, and the Infield terminal is slated for demolition to build a new Westjet hangar and de-ice pad. The 2north/south runways are currently under review to potentially close as far as I understand (why I have no idea). That would free a ton of space for a new infield terminal. I think it’s evident that there is much more to it then meets the eye. There is no way they wouldn’t be building the new T1pier if they didn’t have some idea up their sleeve. At least they are proving flexible with bus boarding and such.


I did not know about the runway review. My feeling in part of this announcement from AC was a "if you build it, we will fill it" to YYZ as well. YYZ is close to capacity already.

I remember when the redesign was happening that then AC CEO, Robert Milton, wanted island terminals like Atlanta, but the sitting GTAA CEO came from SFO and wanted something similar.

If AC does grow at the rate they are indicating, plus the WS expansion, something has to give.

A friend told me they are also building a regional transportation hub for commuters, which is a great idea.
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beechnut
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:22 pm

767333ER wrote:
At the time they were mainly committed to Boeing for widebody aircraft.


Not entirely. AC had almost the same number of 727s as DC9s. They also had DC8s but by the late 80s just a handful remained in cargo service, the pax versions largely replaced by 747s, L1011s and finally 767s.

Beech
 
ytz
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:32 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
CXH wrote:

I know that the Bombardier Rail division is majorly behind schedule in supplying new street cars to the public transit authority in Toronto, so their name is mud in the centre-of-the-universe right now (a Canadian in-joke of Toronto vs. the rest of Canada!). Outside of Toronto, at least here in Vancouver, very few people are aware of that issue.



The funny thing is that Bombardier delivers trains to Vancouver on time.


And Bombardier also delivers trains on time to Toronto. The same plant making those light rail vehicles is the one that has been providing GO Train carriage for decades with no issues. Torontonians (my hometown) are drama queens, who also had no issue giving Bombardier a sole-source contract, which is what allowed them to cut corners and get into trouble.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:46 pm

The MAX-9 is a fantastic aircraft for Air Canada, but it seems Boeing decided to do a -10 for a reason.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ytz
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:50 pm

keesje wrote:
The MAX-9 is a fantastic aircraft for Air Canada, but it seems Boeing decided to do a -10 for a reason.


And yet AC has reduced the proportion of MAX-9s and upped the number of MAX-8s it is taking. They clearly want the MOM. Or I'm guessing they'll take 321LRs if the MOM doesn't happen. I think they want to get into the LCC TATL market before Norwegian, WOW, etc. become well established in Canada.

The real question for me is what happens with the 24 Rouge 767s. Does AC replace them with 788s? Or with MOM/321LR? Like I said earlier, I always wonder why they don't mainline those aircraft and replace them with 300 seater 787s in a Y/Y+ config?
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:03 pm

ytz wrote:
keesje wrote:
The MAX-9 is a fantastic aircraft for Air Canada, but it seems Boeing decided to do a -10 for a reason.


And yet AC has reduced the proportion of MAX-9s and upped the number of MAX-8s it is taking. They clearly want the MOM. Or I'm guessing they'll take 321LRs if the MOM doesn't happen. I think they want to get into the LCC TATL market before Norwegian, WOW, etc. become well established in Canada.

The real question for me is what happens with the 24 Rouge 767s. Does AC replace them with 788s? Or with MOM/321LR? Like I said earlier, I always wonder why they don't mainline those aircraft and replace them with 300 seater 787s in a Y/Y+ config?


This was asked by one of the analysts during the Investor Day Q&A... I think, and the answer given was that the Rouge 767s are to stay until the mid 2020’s. Of course if a compelling option for replacement comes sooner than that, everything could change, but that is the stated plan at the moment.
SuperTwin
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:12 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Apparently they are not exercising the options on the 13 787s anytime soon. Rumour was they were expiring this fall.

Whatever they’re doing seems to be working what with those Q3 results.


They have been very quiet on this.

As of Q3’17, these options are still listed as on-hand in the notes under the fleet plan chart, which offers guidance as far as Dec 31, 2018, but that is all they have to say about that.

As someone else noted in another thread, it is very intriguing that the remaining outliers in the mainline WB fleet are 8x a333s and 5x 763s. Those look ripe for replacement with the 13 options.

Should they go for it, would be interesting to see if they would go all -9s or mix in some -10s.
SuperTwin
 
thumper76
Posts: 216
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:29 pm

MapleLeaf789 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
MapleLeaf789 wrote:

I have felt this for a while now re: expansion.

I think AC is set to grow considerably over the next decade.

I think they are also starting to really appreciate the possibilities of Canadian airports for connections. If this goes through, I wonder if it's the push that will get the final pier completed at Pearson?


The whole pier issue at YYZ is an interesting one. They just built a new ground level pier where the new main pier is supposed to be, opened a few weeks ago, used for regional flights and such. I get the feeling this new pier has been put off indefinitely because they can’t lose the regional pier. They have started handstand loading and unloading for T1 international flights at the H stands, I think their best option at this point would be to build more permanent structures, much like LAX had before TBIT to act as satellite boarding stands. T3 is also woefully inadequate, not to mention WS is poised to grow quite significantly as well. There isn’t really any space to grow T3, and the Infield terminal is slated for demolition to build a new Westjet hangar and de-ice pad. The 2north/south runways are currently under review to potentially close as far as I understand (why I have no idea). That would free a ton of space for a new infield terminal. I think it’s evident that there is much more to it then meets the eye. There is no way they wouldn’t be building the new T1pier if they didn’t have some idea up their sleeve. At least they are proving flexible with bus boarding and such.


I did not know about the runway review. My feeling in part of this announcement from AC was a "if you build it, we will fill it" to YYZ as well. YYZ is close to capacity already.

I remember when the redesign was happening that then AC CEO, Robert Milton, wanted island terminals like Atlanta, but the sitting GTAA CEO came from SFO and wanted something similar.

If AC does grow at the rate they are indicating, plus the WS expansion, something has to give.

A friend told me they are also building a regional transportation hub for commuters, which is a great idea.


There is already a plan set in place for yyz future overflow at Yhm, this I know for a fact! There are other airports involved as well and I believe YKF is one of them but don't quote me on that. The gtaa are certain that they will be out of room in the not so distant future.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:32 pm

MapleLeaf789 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
ACs incremental orders should be for CS3s and B789s mainly as these are the best aircraft for them in the long run.


I think the 7M8 too and they specifically mentioned that. I think AC are just beginning to realize how many possible 7M8 transatlantic routes they can open up. Not only out of YYZ and YUL, but opening thinner routes out of secondary markets like YOW/YQB-CDG for example.


I have felt this for a while now re: expansion.

I think AC is set to grow considerably over the next decade.

I think they are also starting to really appreciate the possibilities of Canadian airports for connections. If this goes through, I wonder if it's the push that will get the final pier completed at Pearson?


Pearson is likely not to be the beneficiary. If the future for TATL really is more narrowbody flying and more route fragmentation, AC has every reason to build up connecting TATL traffic in other hubs, whether that's YUL/YOW, or a new TATL hub in Atlantic Canada at YHZ/YYT. That will at least partially cannibalize connecting traffic at YYZ, although if the projected growth materializes there will be plenty to go around.

Pinching the FI route planning model of a TATL scissor hub is an increasingly crowded space, with FI, WW, EI, and DY/D8 all already there, WS with its own tiny operation, and B6 and others contemplating very loudly. But AC brings many advantages to the table: the ability to fly in either the full-service mainline or LCC Rouge market segments, and a connection hub on the west side of the Atlantic, for westbound evening connections and morning arrivals, which is much more humane than witching-hour landings at KEF or the morning rush at DUB or the major Western European hubs. Also, the ability to reach much deeper into Central and Eastern Europe with a 7M8 from YYT than any US-flagged carrier can hope to achieve with an A321LR from BOS, and the ability to carry a full load of cargo while doing it, can't be sneezed at.
 
thumper76
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:45 pm

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
MapleLeaf789 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

I think the 7M8 too and they specifically mentioned that. I think AC are just beginning to realize how many possible 7M8 transatlantic routes they can open up. Not only out of YYZ and YUL, but opening thinner routes out of secondary markets like YOW/YQB-CDG for example.


I have felt this for a while now re: expansion.

I think AC is set to grow considerably over the next decade.

I think they are also starting to really appreciate the possibilities of Canadian airports for connections. If this goes through, I wonder if it's the push that will get the final pier completed at Pearson?


Pearson is likely not to be the beneficiary. If the future for TATL really is more narrowbody flying and more route fragmentation, AC has every reason to build up connecting TATL traffic in other hubs, whether that's YUL/YOW, or a new TATL hub in Atlantic Canada at YHZ/YYT. That will at least partially cannibalize connecting traffic at YYZ, although if the projected growth materializes there will be plenty to go around.

Pinching the FI route planning model of a TATL scissor hub is an increasingly crowded space, with FI, WW, EI, and DY/D8 all already there, WS with its own tiny operation, and B6 and others contemplating very loudly. But AC brings many advantages to the table: the ability to fly in either the full-service mainline or LCC Rouge market segments, and a connection hub on the west side of the Atlantic, for westbound evening connections and morning arrivals, which is much more humane than witching-hour landings at KEF or the morning rush at DUB or the major Western European hubs. Also, the ability to reach much deeper into Central and Eastern Europe with a 7M8 from YYT than any US-flagged carrier can hope to achieve with an A321LR from BOS, and the ability to carry a full load of cargo while doing it, can't be sneezed at.


Add to all that, Air Canada is intending to use rouge to compete with future ulcc's in Canada, airports other than yyz will benefit. The golden horseshoe is a market that I can see huge growth in.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:56 pm

ytz wrote:
keesje wrote:
The MAX-9 is a fantastic aircraft for Air Canada, but it seems Boeing decided to do a -10 for a reason.


And yet AC has reduced the proportion of MAX-9s and upped the number of MAX-8s it is taking. They clearly want the MOM. Or I'm guessing they'll take 321LRs if the MOM doesn't happen. I think they want to get into the LCC TATL market before Norwegian, WOW, etc. become well established in Canada.


If AC can’t wait 8 yrs for that, MoM’s seem unlikely. How much choice do they really have? I’m not certain if Airbus is really in a position to give AC good discounts after AC’s recent fleet decisions.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PHLCVGAMTK
Posts: 113
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:33 pm

keesje wrote:
ytz wrote:
keesje wrote:
The MAX-9 is a fantastic aircraft for Air Canada, but it seems Boeing decided to do a -10 for a reason.


And yet AC has reduced the proportion of MAX-9s and upped the number of MAX-8s it is taking. They clearly want the MOM. Or I'm guessing they'll take 321LRs if the MOM doesn't happen. I think they want to get into the LCC TATL market before Norwegian, WOW, etc. become well established in Canada.


If AC can’t wait 8 yrs for that, MoM’s seem unlikely. How much choice do they really have? I’m not certain if Airbus is really in a position to give AC good discounts after AC’s recent fleet decisions.


AC only needs to wait for the MoM if it really wants to double down on YYZ as a connecting hub. Even for a YUL-centered TATL strategy, it doesn't have to wait for Boeing to produce a "widebody with narrowbody economics" when today's narrowbodies (i.e. MAX and non-LR NEO) already have the performance to meet its needs.
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:42 pm

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
But AC brings many advantages to the table: the ability to fly in either the full-service mainline or LCC Rouge market segments, and a connection hub on the west side of the Atlantic, for westbound evening connections and morning arrivals, which is much more humane than witching-hour landings at KEF or the morning rush at DUB or the major Western European hubs.


Very astute insight.
SuperTwin
 
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RL777
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:51 pm

HJM wrote:
Do you think there may me a new AC Asian destination from YVR in 2018?


AC have been looking at SIN, I think it could work 3x weekly with the 789. There is a fair amount of Singapore bound passengers out of YVR currently forced to connect through Hong Kong or Tokyo etc.. SQ served YVR as 1 stop through ICN until 2009 but have been interested in returning if they are given the slots/week they want from the Canadian Government.
 
thumper76
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:45 am

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
keesje wrote:
ytz wrote:

And yet AC has reduced the proportion of MAX-9s and upped the number of MAX-8s it is taking. They clearly want the MOM. Or I'm guessing they'll take 321LRs if the MOM doesn't happen. I think they want to get into the LCC TATL market before Norwegian, WOW, etc. become well established in Canada.


If AC can’t wait 8 yrs for that, MoM’s seem unlikely. How much choice do they really have? I’m not certain if Airbus is really in a position to give AC good discounts after AC’s recent fleet decisions.


AC only needs to wait for the MoM if it really wants to double down on YYZ as a connecting hub. Even for a YUL-centered TATL strategy, it doesn't have to wait for Boeing to produce a "widebody with narrowbody economics" when today's narrowbodies (i.e. MAX and non-LR NEO) already have the performance to meet its needs.

Both Boeing and Airbus are going to have to deside what route they should take on future aircraft. I am sure that at this point both are listening to all airlines as to their future needs. Mom may or may not be one of boeings offerings in the future, we can only hope that Air Canada does what is best for Air Canada in full consideration of the flying public..
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:40 am

RL777 wrote:
HJM wrote:
Do you think there may me a new AC Asian destination from YVR in 2018?


AC have been looking at SIN, I think it could work 3x weekly with the 789. There is a fair amount of Singapore bound passengers out of YVR currently forced to connect through Hong Kong or Tokyo etc.. SQ served YVR as 1 stop through ICN until 2009 but have been interested in returning if they are given the slots/week they want from the Canadian Government.


My money would be on a safer bet like a new destination in Japan. Yields to China xYVR suck at the moment so it wouldn't be there.
SuperTwin
 
User avatar
RL777
Posts: 651
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:14 am

SuperTwin wrote:
RL777 wrote:
HJM wrote:
Do you think there may me a new AC Asian destination from YVR in 2018?


AC have been looking at SIN, I think it could work 3x weekly with the 789. There is a fair amount of Singapore bound passengers out of YVR currently forced to connect through Hong Kong or Tokyo etc.. SQ served YVR as 1 stop through ICN until 2009 but have been interested in returning if they are given the slots/week they want from the Canadian Government.


My money would be on a safer bet like a new destination in Japan. Yields to China xYVR suck at the moment so it wouldn't be there.


YVR-KIX is probably the only mainline route I could see coming about. The smaller more tourist driven cities are more suited to Rouge.
 
jmt18325
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 6:08 pm

Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:27 pm

RL777 wrote:
SuperTwin wrote:
RL777 wrote:

AC have been looking at SIN, I think it could work 3x weekly with the 789. There is a fair amount of Singapore bound passengers out of YVR currently forced to connect through Hong Kong or Tokyo etc.. SQ served YVR as 1 stop through ICN until 2009 but have been interested in returning if they are given the slots/week they want from the Canadian Government.


My money would be on a safer bet like a new destination in Japan. Yields to China xYVR suck at the moment so it wouldn't be there.


YVR-KIX is probably the only mainline route I could see coming about. The smaller more tourist driven cities are more suited to Rouge.


Unlikely, since KIX is already served by Rouge.

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