jbs2886
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:42 pm

jmt18325 wrote:
RL777 wrote:
SuperTwin wrote:

My money would be on a safer bet like a new destination in Japan. Yields to China xYVR suck at the moment so it wouldn't be there.


YVR-KIX is probably the only mainline route I could see coming about. The smaller more tourist driven cities are more suited to Rouge.


Unlikely, since KIX is already served by Rouge.


How is that unlikely? AC has switched some Rogue routes to mainline.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:15 pm

I don’t think there will be much fragmentation on the part of AC, even as capacity concerns grow. The problem with cities like YOw and YHZ is they are small, and unlike many smaller cities in the Us, there aren’t many nearby small cities. Canada is much more sparsely populated then the US, the GTA and Golden Horseshoe alone is home to a quarter of the population of the entire country. That is why they have been gradually centralizing. Lately, most route additions from YYZ are at off peak times, the reality is, the airport has to move towards a more round the clock operation, and it is making moves in that direction. Traffic isn’t going to suddenly pick up and move to Ottawa, Halifax and places like that, Torontonians, the well documented drama queens of the nation would riot. Even YHM is too far, asking someone to take a connecting flight to Europe, hah, funny. That’s why I think going foreward, the trend is going to be towards larger planes, more mainline vs Jazz/Sky Regional/Georgian out of Toronto, and more off peak time departures, like later evening Europe for example. Connecting traffic is one thing, but local traffic will remain the driving force, especially as Toronto continues to grow, that is provided traffic doesn’t get so bad and people can still reach the airport ;)
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:22 am

I'm not sure whether it's already been mentioned or not, but based on the linked article, AC plans to remove the 767s by 2019, the first leaving this year already.

http://www.mro-network.com/airlines/air ... l-progress
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:53 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
I'm not sure whether it's already been mentioned or not, but based on the linked article, AC plans to remove the 767s by 2019, the first leaving this year already.

http://www.mro-network.com/airlines/air ... l-progress


It says 5 of them. Ben Smith has said the remainder of 767s could stay into the next decade.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:59 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
It says 5 of them. Ben Smith has said the remainder of 767s could stay into the next decade.


Right, I somehow mixed the number they still operate.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:35 am

YUL-LYS has been mentioned as a 767 route, and that was the case during October but now, since the beginning of winter schedule, AC828/829 are down to three times weekly with an A333, instead of 4x with 767.
 
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Vio
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:44 pm

This is great news. It makes perfect sense. I fly for one of the Express Carriers and our planes are always full or very very close to it. Great for business!
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:16 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
The whole pier issue at YYZ is an interesting one. They just built a new ground level pier where the new main pier is supposed to be, opened a few weeks ago, used for regional flights and such. I get the feeling this new pier has been put off indefinitely because they can’t lose the regional pier. They have started handstand loading and unloading for T1 international flights at the H stands, I think their best option at this point would be to build more permanent structures, much like LAX had before TBIT to act as satellite boarding stands. T3 is also woefully inadequate, not to mention WS is poised to grow quite significantly as well. There isn’t really any space to grow T3, and the Infield terminal is slated for demolition to build a new Westjet hangar and de-ice pad. The 2north/south runways are currently under review to potentially close as far as I understand (why I have no idea). That would free a ton of space for a new infield terminal. I think it’s evident that there is much more to it then meets the eye. There is no way they wouldn’t be building the new T1pier if they didn’t have some idea up their sleeve. At least they are proving flexible with bus boarding and such.



Is this new regional pier an extension of the existing prefab regional pier that has been there for a number of years now? I had no idea they were extending it.

It does seem bizarre that they are rethinking the whole master plan already. The whole point of building this extremely expensive new terminal was that it was supposed to be relatively simple to expand with demand. When I saw that recent "transit hub" plan that seemed to have apron and gates extended around to the street side of the T1 processor and a new processor being built on the other side of Airport Road, I was pretty surprised.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:40 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
The whole pier issue at YYZ is an interesting one. They just built a new ground level pier where the new main pier is supposed to be, opened a few weeks ago, used for regional flights and such. I get the feeling this new pier has been put off indefinitely because they can’t lose the regional pier. They have started handstand loading and unloading for T1 international flights at the H stands, I think their best option at this point would be to build more permanent structures, much like LAX had before TBIT to act as satellite boarding stands. T3 is also woefully inadequate, not to mention WS is poised to grow quite significantly as well. There isn’t really any space to grow T3, and the Infield terminal is slated for demolition to build a new Westjet hangar and de-ice pad. The 2north/south runways are currently under review to potentially close as far as I understand (why I have no idea). That would free a ton of space for a new infield terminal. I think it’s evident that there is much more to it then meets the eye. There is no way they wouldn’t be building the new T1pier if they didn’t have some idea up their sleeve. At least they are proving flexible with bus boarding and such.



Is this new regional pier an extension of the existing prefab regional pier that has been there for a number of years now? I had no idea they were extending it.

It does seem bizarre that they are rethinking the whole master plan already. The whole point of building this extremely expensive new terminal was that it was supposed to be relatively simple to expand with demand. When I saw that recent "transit hub" plan that seemed to have apron and gates extended around to the street side of the T1 processor and a new processor being built on the other side of Airport Road, I was pretty surprised.


The new regional pier replaces the old shack, and it’s pretty nice all things considering. They just expanded the bus boarding headstand area last week, so that seems to be the stopgap until they think of something. The problem is T3 is just as full as T1, and Westjet is exploding in growth right now, W17 vs W16 they have 70+ more flights per week from YYZ, with about 500000 more available seats for the season. Honestly I have no clue what they are going to do in the next few years, demand isn’t likely to do anything but continue to grow. YYZ’s International pax numbers are up 10% this year, and that is coming off of a soft summer growth (owing to a massive 2016). International pax numbers for W17 are probably going to be up 13-15% this year vs last. I think it benefits international carriers who can now take advantage and upguage equipment to fill the vacuum, where as AC and WS are already pretty much maxed out.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:55 pm

Very interesting! I had no idea the shack was being replaced. It's strange that it got no mention in the media or even on Anet. Is the connection to the main terminal less awkward? I'll have to check it out next time I have a chance.

I get that YYZ finally has gotten its costs down to a fairly competitive level, so they don't want to embark on another multibillion dollar capital project. But even if construction starts now, Pier G isn't going to be finished for years. If growth continues at this rate, the airport will be hopelessly overcrowded.

In fact, I've noticed that the hammerhead on Pier F is now nearly impossible to move around during the evening peak, especially into the side swing gates. Queuing passengers are everywhere. The additional retail hasn't helped, but I'm guessing it's partly because the terminal was designed more around 763s than 400+ seat high-density 777s. The airport needs to figure this situation out, even if it means sacrificing a little bit of retail (or maybe an unorthodox solution like moving some upstairs to the Maple Leaf Lounge level).
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Odd that YYZ is so slow to respond to growth. Here, YVR, which is experiencing about the same growth rate, keeps planning ahead and is just about to embark on several terminal expansions, D and A piers, and well as tripling the size of the parkade and an eastward extension of the US Departures check-in building.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:52 pm

I think YVR's strength is that they're able to make modest expansions to add a few gates. It seems like Pearson (regional pier aside) is designed for much bigger, multi-billion dollar expansions involving an entire new pier.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:56 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
I think YVR's strength is that they're able to make modest expansions to add a few gates. It seems like Pearson (regional pier aside) is designed for much bigger, multi-billion dollar expansions involving an entire new pier.


Good point, YVR's terminal expansion, since the 1996 opening of the then International Terminal has been hodgepodge and rather cheap looking to some degree, especially the Pier C extension, while Pearson was landmark architecture and I guess they wish to maintain the integrity and overall look of Terminal 1.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:09 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Good point, YVR's terminal expansion, since the 1996 opening of the then International Terminal has been hodgepodge and rather cheap looking to some degree, especially the Pier C extension, while Pearson was landmark architecture and I guess they wish to maintain the integrity and overall look of Terminal 1.


I think that's true, though now the few things we've seen leaked have suggested that they're now rethinking the whole concept.

The last master plan is from 2008 and is supposed to be updated every decade. It's almost 2008 and I'm surprised we haven't heard any public announcements about work on an updated plan. Its not something you can toss off in a Red-Bull-fuelled all-nighter. It requires many months of public consultation.
 
HJM
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:31 pm

SuperTwin wrote:
RL777 wrote:
HJM wrote:
Do you think there may me a new AC Asian destination from YVR in 2018?


AC have been looking at SIN, I think it could work 3x weekly with the 789. There is a fair amount of Singapore bound passengers out of YVR currently forced to connect through Hong Kong or Tokyo etc.. SQ served YVR as 1 stop through ICN until 2009 but have been interested in returning if they are given the slots/week they want from the Canadian Government.


My money would be on a safer bet like a new destination in Japan. Yields to China xYVR suck at the moment so it wouldn't be there.


SIN may have limited demand, traffic to China is heavy but also with much competition and low fares. Japan other than NRT is quite seasonal. I wonder if MNL is under consideration? Former CP destination, only PR flying non-stop, fares firmer than to China.
 
nname
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:55 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Odd that YYZ is so slow to respond to growth. Here, YVR, which is experiencing about the same growth rate, keeps planning ahead and is just about to embark on several terminal expansions, D and A piers, and well as tripling the size of the parkade and an eastward extension of the US Departures check-in building.


The next terminal expansions is actually for Pier D (4 gates?) and a brand new "Pier F".
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:18 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Odd that YYZ is so slow to respond to growth. Here, YVR, which is experiencing about the same growth rate, keeps planning ahead and is just about to embark on several terminal expansions, D and A piers, and well as tripling the size of the parkade and an eastward extension of the US Departures check-in building.


The thing is with YVR compared to YYZ, the growth rates may be the same, but YYZ has over double the passengers, YYZ adds over twice as many new pax per year as YVR does, around 4-5 million more pax per year in the case of YYZ. The time has passed for incremental upgrades, that ship has long since sailed. They need a radical new plan and fast before delays and holds become unmanageable. Ground level boarding on hardstands will help in the summer, and the winter has slightly less movements, so there is a little bit more slack there. That's right now, this year will likely be about 48 million pax. Next year we are looking at maybe 53 million, They have to go somewhere.

An idea I have would be to start building where pier H is slated to be, bypassing pier G to allow the regional pier to remain in place, and just make it a simple, straight rectangular extension, like the T1 domestic pier. It can be attached to the main part of the terminal using a temporary connection with moving walkways or something to keep people moving, and then still allow pier G to eventually be built when the time comes.
 
sheikh85
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:21 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Odd that YYZ is so slow to respond to growth. Here, YVR, which is experiencing about the same growth rate, keeps planning ahead and is just about to embark on several terminal expansions, D and A piers, and well as tripling the size of the parkade and an eastward extension of the US Departures check-in building.


The thing is with YVR compared to YYZ, the growth rates may be the same, but YYZ has over double the passengers, YYZ adds over twice as many new pax per year as YVR does, around 4-5 million more pax per year in the case of YYZ. The time has passed for incremental upgrades, that ship has long since sailed. They need a radical new plan and fast before delays and holds become unmanageable. Ground level boarding on hardstands will help in the summer, and the winter has slightly less movements, so there is a little bit more slack there. That's right now, this year will likely be about 48 million pax. Next year we are looking at maybe 53 million, They have to go somewhere.

An idea I have would be to start building where pier H is slated to be, bypassing pier G to allow the regional pier to remain in place, and just make it a simple, straight rectangular extension, like the T1 domestic pier. It can be attached to the main part of the terminal using a temporary connection with moving walkways or something to keep people moving, and then still allow pier G to eventually be built when the time comes.


The reason YYZ is adding twice as many pax is because transport canada wouldn't let many carriers fly to yvr but only to yyz or yul. Aviation policy of Canada is more accomodating to eastern canada than to western canada. If they let carriers fly to more cities e.g. TK, rate of growth in YYZ wouldn't be the same.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:30 am

sheikh85 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Odd that YYZ is so slow to respond to growth. Here, YVR, which is experiencing about the same growth rate, keeps planning ahead and is just about to embark on several terminal expansions, D and A piers, and well as tripling the size of the parkade and an eastward extension of the US Departures check-in building.


The thing is with YVR compared to YYZ, the growth rates may be the same, but YYZ has over double the passengers, YYZ adds over twice as many new pax per year as YVR does, around 4-5 million more pax per year in the case of YYZ. The time has passed for incremental upgrades, that ship has long since sailed. They need a radical new plan and fast before delays and holds become unmanageable. Ground level boarding on hardstands will help in the summer, and the winter has slightly less movements, so there is a little bit more slack there. That's right now, this year will likely be about 48 million pax. Next year we are looking at maybe 53 million, They have to go somewhere.

An idea I have would be to start building where pier H is slated to be, bypassing pier G to allow the regional pier to remain in place, and just make it a simple, straight rectangular extension, like the T1 domestic pier. It can be attached to the main part of the terminal using a temporary connection with moving walkways or something to keep people moving, and then still allow pier G to eventually be built when the time comes.


The reason YYZ is adding twice as many pax is because transport canada wouldn't let many carriers fly to yvr but only to yyz or yul. Aviation policy of Canada is more accomodating to eastern canada than to western canada. If they let carriers fly to more cities e.g. TK, rate of growth in YYZ wouldn't be the same.


That is not at all true. TK for example can fly anywhere in Canada, they are simply allowed 9 weekly frequencies. They choose to fly to YYZ because that is where the most demand is. Nothing more then that. TK is not a unique example, I don't know of any carrier that is limited to where it can serve by the government.
 
sheikh85
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:01 am

whywhyzee wrote:
sheikh85 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:

The thing is with YVR compared to YYZ, the growth rates may be the same, but YYZ has over double the passengers, YYZ adds over twice as many new pax per year as YVR does, around 4-5 million more pax per year in the case of YYZ. The time has passed for incremental upgrades, that ship has long since sailed. They need a radical new plan and fast before delays and holds become unmanageable. Ground level boarding on hardstands will help in the summer, and the winter has slightly less movements, so there is a little bit more slack there. That's right now, this year will likely be about 48 million pax. Next year we are looking at maybe 53 million, They have to go somewhere.

An idea I have would be to start building where pier H is slated to be, bypassing pier G to allow the regional pier to remain in place, and just make it a simple, straight rectangular extension, like the T1 domestic pier. It can be attached to the main part of the terminal using a temporary connection with moving walkways or something to keep people moving, and then still allow pier G to eventually be built when the time comes.


The reason YYZ is adding twice as many pax is because transport canada wouldn't let many carriers fly to yvr but only to yyz or yul. Aviation policy of Canada is more accomodating to eastern canada than to western canada. If they let carriers fly to more cities e.g. TK, rate of growth in YYZ wouldn't be the same.


That is not at all true. TK for example can fly anywhere in Canada, they are simply allowed 9 weekly frequencies. They choose to fly to YYZ because that is where the most demand is. Nothing more then that. TK is not a unique example, I don't know of any carrier that is limited to where it can serve by the government.


As per my knowledge, frequency as well as number of stations is a limitation. Transport Canada has reviewed requests by several airlines wanting to fly to western canada but the requests were declined on grounds that there is not enough need for this e.g. Emirates & Turkish. BASA can always be expanded, but there is a known reluctance to do so on Transport Canada's part.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1010
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Re: Air Canada says increased demand could prompt more airplane orders (CBC)

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:30 am

sheikh85 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
sheikh85 wrote:

The reason YYZ is adding twice as many pax is because transport canada wouldn't let many carriers fly to yvr but only to yyz or yul. Aviation policy of Canada is more accomodating to eastern canada than to western canada. If they let carriers fly to more cities e.g. TK, rate of growth in YYZ wouldn't be the same.


That is not at all true. TK for example can fly anywhere in Canada, they are simply allowed 9 weekly frequencies. They choose to fly to YYZ because that is where the most demand is. Nothing more then that. TK is not a unique example, I don't know of any carrier that is limited to where it can serve by the government.


As per my knowledge, frequency as well as number of stations is a limitation. Transport Canada has reviewed requests by several airlines wanting to fly to western canada but the requests were declined on grounds that there is not enough need for this e.g. Emirates & Turkish. BASA can always be expanded, but there is a known reluctance to do so on Transport Canada's part.


There is no provision that prevents EK, TK or anyone else I know from serving YVR. They chose not to because the demand isn’t there vs other cities in Canada. Simple as that. EK or TK could easily drop YYZ and serve YVR, but they don’t, and won’t, because YYZ has more demand.

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