Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Finn350
Topic Author
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:52 pm

Finnair will start weighting some passengers on a voluntary basis. This news has blown out proportion here in Finland. The aim is to check whether EASA guideline of average male passenger with hand baggage weighing 88 kg is correct or underestimated. The sample needed is 1000-1500 passengers and it is completely voluntary (meaning that overweight persons are not probably the first ones to volunteer).

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/want ... le/9907614
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:59 pm

I really don't think weighing passengers is necessary at all. Most airlines don't do it and never will. If you bought tickets on an airline, you should be able to fly with them without your weight being checked.
 
DalRiada
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:30 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:02 pm

NichCage wrote:
I really don't think weighing passengers is necessary at all. Most airlines don't do it and never will. If you bought tickets on an airline, you should be able to fly with them without your weight being checked.


And you can. You only have to be weighed if you want to be.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1323
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:04 pm

You'll get an average weight of people who want to volunteer, and that is not likely to be an accurate representation of the average passenger. It seems like a rather pointless exercise. It certainly gets press though! Sort of like MOL's suggestion that FR should charge for lavatory usage.
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 984
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:07 pm

Well hang on, what's the fear here? If it's voluntary there's no need for the brouhaha. People need to get over the "it's inappropriate to ask my weight" story. There are airlines out there that DO weigh passengers on every single flight. Granted it's small airlines that fly C402's, BN2-Islanders, Twin Otters etc. I don't hear their passengers complaining.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:11 pm

aerolimani wrote:
You'll get an average weight of people who want to volunteer, and that is not likely to be an accurate representation of the average passenger. It seems like a rather pointless exercise. It certainly gets press though! Sort of like MOL's suggestion that FR should charge for lavatory usage.

Just a couple of questions for you: Don't you think Finnair just might have employed statisticians for this survey? Do you think statisticians are idiots? Do you think this is the only survey where there is an opt-out percentage? Do you think this is something statisticians and professional surveyers have never encounteted before? Just askin'....
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:13 pm

NichCage wrote:
I really don't think weighing passengers is necessary at all. Most airlines don't do it and never will. If you bought tickets on an airline, you should be able to fly with them without your weight being checked.

Actually, most airlines DO weigh (some of) their passengers every now and then, for this very reason. Move on, folks! Nothing to see here....
 
ScottB
Posts: 7133
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:14 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
Well hang on, what's the fear here? If it's voluntary there's no need for the brouhaha. People need to get over the "it's inappropriate to ask my weight" story. There are airlines out there that DO weigh passengers on every single flight. Granted it's small airlines that fly C402's, BN2-Islanders, Twin Otters etc. I don't hear their passengers complaining.


But in the end, as others have already pointed out, the exercise is pointless if passengers can self-select. The goal is to verify that the average male passenger plus hand luggage comes in at 88 kilos, but without a truly random sample any conclusions drawn from the experiment will likely be invalid, especially if overweight passengers are less likely to volunteer.
 
AC143
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:20 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:14 pm

Well I don't see the problem here it's voluntary and the only purpose is to check whether the estimate is accurate. Although I think they will get an underestimated data from this as overweight people would be more reluctant to get weighted than the average Joe.
MD82 E175 E190 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 B733 B73G B738 B74M B763 B772 B77W B789
 
morrisond
Posts: 2874
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:26 pm

The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.
 
rta
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:01 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:45 pm

AC143 wrote:
Well I don't see the problem here it's voluntary and the only purpose is to check whether the estimate is accurate. Although I think they will get an underestimated data from this as overweight people would be more reluctant to get weighted than the average Joe.


Agree. I'd expect the reported numbers to be below the actual average.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:50 pm

morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

This idea of weighing aircraft comes up every month or so here on these fora. It is not done simply because the numbers obtained would be irrelevant. When you have seen it done, it was in a controlled setting in a hangar. In fact, there is a video on Youtube where Finnair is weighing one of their A343s.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:53 pm

rta wrote:
AC143 wrote:
Well I don't see the problem here it's voluntary and the only purpose is to check whether the estimate is accurate. Although I think they will get an underestimated data from this as overweight people would be more reluctant to get weighted than the average Joe.


Agree. I'd expect the reported numbers to be below the actual average.

Really? How many years did you study statistics at college level to come to that conclusion?

All you guys who say that this will be a fruitless excercise because numbers are underreported....have you studied statistics beyond the basic high school level??
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:02 pm

I remember as a child in propellor days it was not uncommon at check in to give your weight,. I remember my mother really resented it
 
tomcat
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:06 pm

ScottB wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:
Well hang on, what's the fear here? If it's voluntary there's no need for the brouhaha. People need to get over the "it's inappropriate to ask my weight" story. There are airlines out there that DO weigh passengers on every single flight. Granted it's small airlines that fly C402's, BN2-Islanders, Twin Otters etc. I don't hear their passengers complaining.


But in the end, as others have already pointed out, the exercise is pointless if passengers can self-select. The goal is to verify that the average male passenger plus hand luggage comes in at 88 kilos, but without a truly random sample any conclusions drawn from the experiment will likely be invalid, especially if overweight passengers are less likely to volunteer.


Well, if with this approach, the average is already close to 88 kg or above it, it will be obvious that considering an average weight of 88 kg is not appropriate anymore.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
rta wrote:
AC143 wrote:
Well I don't see the problem here it's voluntary and the only purpose is to check whether the estimate is accurate. Although I think they will get an underestimated data from this as overweight people would be more reluctant to get weighted than the average Joe.


Agree. I'd expect the reported numbers to be below the actual average.

Really? How many years did you study statistics at college level to come to that conclusion?

All you guys who say that this will be a fruitless excercise because numbers are underreported....have you studied statistics beyond the basic high school level??


Hmmm, seems they're making a psychological point vs. a stats point. But it sounds like you have more statistics information on the topic. Please elaborate.

As a relative of mine, who has a PhD in stats, often reminds me, with any survey you have to take into account the reasons that people don't reply as well.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2874
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:29 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

This idea of weighing aircraft comes up every month or so here on these fora. It is not done simply because the numbers obtained would be irrelevant. When you have seen it done, it was in a controlled setting in a hangar. In fact, there is a video on Youtube where Finnair is weighing one of their A343s.



Why would weighing it outside on the Tarmac make any difference? Is gravity different inside the hangar?
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:32 pm

morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

Yes, that would give you the weight of ALL the passengers. Exactly how do you propose to find out the weight of the MALE passengers alone?

For that matter, why are Finnair only checking male passenger weights? Do they fear an even bigger backlash if they asked women the same question?
Or are female passengers such a minority on Finnair flights that their contribution is negligible?

These, and many many more questions need to be asked. But not by me - my wife won't let me. :duck:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:36 pm

morrisond wrote:
Why would weighing it outside on the Tarmac make any difference? Is gravity different inside the hangar?


Aircraft on tarmac + headwind = xxx,xxx kg
Aircraft on tarmac with rain falling = yyy,yyy kg
Aircraft parked on tarmac with a 0.5% slope = zzz,zzz kg
There are probably other reasons too, but that's all I could think of in under 1 minute.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24829
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:41 pm

In the US the FAA requires carriers to weight survey a sample of passengers to verify the accuracy of average assumed weights utilized in weight and balance calculations, and in cases where carriers seek to utilize alternate custom weights.

In FAA in 2003 adopted a 15-pound higher assumed average weight for passengers and carry on following the investigation triggered by crash of a US Airways commuter plane.

Only last year, there was in the news of Hawaiian Air was weighing passengers.on its Samoa route which established that actual weight was heavier than projected averages.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... planation/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
Finn350
Topic Author
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:00 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

Yes, that would give you the weight of ALL the passengers. Exactly how do you propose to find out the weight of the MALE passengers alone?

For that matter, why are Finnair only checking male passenger weights? Do they fear an even bigger backlash if they asked women the same question?
Or are female passengers such a minority on Finnair flights that their contribution is negligible?

These, and many many more questions need to be asked. But not by me - my wife won't let me. :duck:


It seems this is the reference containing current guidelines:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... 0Final.pdf

According to the table 0.2, 88 kg is actually average for all passengers including hand baggage when there are more than 30 seats. That sounds more reasonable than 88 kg for a male including hand baggage.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:03 pm

morrisond wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

This idea of weighing aircraft comes up every month or so here on these fora. It is not done simply because the numbers obtained would be irrelevant. When you have seen it done, it was in a controlled setting in a hangar. In fact, there is a video on Youtube where Finnair is weighing one of their A343s.



Why would weighing it outside on the Tarmac make any difference? Is gravity different inside the hangar?

Weight = "gravity" - lift.
Wings + wind = lift.
You do the math...
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:05 pm

cschleic wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
rta wrote:

Agree. I'd expect the reported numbers to be below the actual average.

Really? How many years did you study statistics at college level to come to that conclusion?

All you guys who say that this will be a fruitless excercise because numbers are underreported....have you studied statistics beyond the basic high school level??


Hmmm, seems they're making a psychological point vs. a stats point. But it sounds like you have more statistics information on the topic. Please elaborate.

As a relative of mine, who has a PhD in stats, often reminds me, with any survey you have to take into account the reasons that people don't reply as well.

Exactly, your relative is knowledgable and correct. Opting-out rates are always a factor to be taken into account, and there are quite elaborate methods to calculate and compensate for them. This is nothing unique to this survey. It happens in virtually every single survey, no matter the subject. The rare case is actually when high school statistics can be applied directly to a sample of results without prior consideration as to how/when/where/by whom these results were obtained.
 
deebee278
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:15 pm

With the relatively large aircraft Finnair has, this sounds more like an economic exercise than a performance one. Contrast that to the early eighties when I was flying twin Cessnas for a tour operator, where weight and balance was more critical. When each passenger came up to the check in counter, they were actually standing on a scale. As I boarded them, I could look at my manifest and place them accordingly. I could really do it by sight, overweight folks mid cabin, etc.
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 984
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:40 pm

rta wrote:
Agree. I'd expect the reported numbers to be below the actual average.


Sooo how do you think they came with the "actual average"?
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 pm

I can't imagine what the big deal is.

Air Canada routinely does weight "audits". There are scales attached to laptops on the bridge and EVERY passenger and crew member is weighed. These are compared to standard weights and adjusted accordingly.

The kicker? The person behind the laptop only knows the weight was recorded, not the actual weight. Seems harmless to me.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 457
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:31 am

Finn350 wrote:
Finnair will start weighting some passengers on a voluntary basis. This news has blown out proportion here in Finland. The aim is to check whether EASA guideline of average male passenger with hand baggage weighing 88 kg is correct or underestimated. The sample needed is 1000-1500 passengers and it is completely voluntary (meaning that overweight persons are not probably the first ones to volunteer).

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/want ... le/9907614


I'm still surprised that they do not weigh Americans...they are kind of big! I'm sure they'd be lawsuits.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
User avatar
zelalemon
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:51 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:32 am

morrisond wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.

This idea of weighing aircraft comes up every month or so here on these fora. It is not done simply because the numbers obtained would be irrelevant. When you have seen it done, it was in a controlled setting in a hangar. In fact, there is a video on Youtube where Finnair is weighing one of their A343s.



Why would weighing it outside on the Tarmac make any difference? Is gravity different inside the hangar?


Technically, yes, it is. Just barely.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:09 am

Do it with an A380 on a calm and dry day and let it sit for a couple minutes, I doubt wind would matter that much. You can also measure that wind and take it into account. And with 500+ passengers, you should get good numbers.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1837
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:23 am

Certainly the average American has to weigh more than the average Azerbaijani, as anyone who has ever been there will know.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:34 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Why would weighing it outside on the Tarmac make any difference? Is gravity different inside the hangar?


Aircraft on tarmac + headwind = xxx,xxx kg
Aircraft on tarmac with rain falling = yyy,yyy kg
Aircraft parked on tarmac with a 0.5% slope = zzz,zzz kg
There are probably other reasons too, but that's all I could think of in under 1 minute.


All of these can be accounted for, rather easily.

Other option might be weighing the bus - such scales certainly can be bought from the shelf. You then only need some statistics, comparing the weight with passenger contents (male/female/infant), and with a sufficient number of measurements you get a very accurate average.

Individuals can be also easily weighed anonymously when passing the gate, without them even knowing that. They probably even do that no so anonymously in some security checks in strange countries. I do not know if laws prohibit weighing persons in Finland or elsewhere.
 
User avatar
SuperGee
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 9:42 am

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:14 pm

NichCage wrote:
I really don't think weighing passengers is necessary at all. Most airlines don't do it and never will. If you bought tickets on an airline, you should be able to fly with them without your weight being checked.


Here is a case where weight calculation apparently made a difference, even though faulty MX (improperly adjusted turnbuckle on elevator control cables) played a part as well:

The Jan. 8 flight was operated for U.S. Airways Express by Air Midwest, part of Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group. Airline officials have said they are cooperating with the investigation.

No conclusion about what caused the crash is expected for months, but lead NTSB investigator Lorenda Ward said the answer is likely to be found in the combination of a plane loaded beyond its limits and maintenance that may have inadvertently limited the pilots' options to regain control.

The crash has prompted skepticism about the FAA's claim that all airline service -- whether on a Boeing 747 or a propeller plane -- must meet the same high safety standards.

"If 5 pounds here or 10 pounds there can make a difference, that tells me that the safety margin built into these [commuter] planes has to be smaller," said Kevin Mitchell, head of the Business Travel Coalition.

Investigators have determined that the plane that crashed weighed a minimum of 17,400 pounds at takeoff, Ward said, or at least 280 pounds above its allowable maximum takeoff weight of 17,120 pounds.

The plane was also loaded in a manner that made it more tail-heavy than specified by its manufacturer, Ward said.

The pilots had estimated the weight at 17,018 pounds, just barely under the limit. But they relied partly on FAA-approved weight estimates for passengers that have been revised upward since the accident to account for Americans' increasing girth.


http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may/21 ... na-crash21
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Finnair starts weighting some passengers voluntarily

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:46 pm

morrisond wrote:
The much easier way to do it would be to put a fully fueled ready to go Plane on Scales. Then take the weight - then add the crew - take the weight, add the luggage - take the weight and then add the passengers and take the weight again. I found pictures of scales the plane would just roll onto (and roll off in seconds when ready to go) and ones using jackets under the axles. You would only be lifting it an inch or two into air - there should not be a safety issue - way more stress/discomfort on landing.


Have you ever weighed a large airplane?
It will take up to 20 minutes until the fuel in the tanks stops swapping around and you'll finally be able to record a weight. You can't do that after boarding and that's why aircraft are always weighed with empty tanks.
Happy Landings

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos