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enilria
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WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:30 am

I'm going to call this brazenly anti-competitive. I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this. This is a bit of a joke as they already know how many flights AS/VS operates and their loads through T100 and the airport's data reporting of enplanements. They are just asking for that to hide getting Alaska's flight profitability.

More broadly, if DAL and DFW are treated as one airport from a competitive point of view it has dire implications for Washington and New York.

Through a process called discovery, Southwest is seeking information on how many flights Virgin operates into and out of Love, as well as how full those flights are and how profitable they are.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... xpand.html
 
dochawk2
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:05 am

The SW/Love Field/Wright fiasco continues. Common sense has never reared its level head.
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usxguy
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am

Alaska should counter with the same demands. There are a handful of flights that are a non-rev's dream, on a regular basis, out of Love Field.
xx
 
Sydscott
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:16 am

enilria wrote:
I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this.


I wish the City of Dallas would step in and say either:

Option A) You guys get together and settle this within a set time period outside of Court and stop wasting ratepayers money; OR

Option B) If the airlines can't settle it the Airport will be closed for good and you'll all have to go to DFW.

This nonsense has gone on long enough!
 
bob75013
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:12 pm

Sydscott wrote:
enilria wrote:
I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this.


I wish the City of Dallas would step in and say either:

Option A) You guys get together and settle this within a set time period outside of Court and stop wasting ratepayers money; OR

Option B) If the airlines can't settle it the Airport will be closed for good and you'll all have to go to DFW.

This nonsense has gone on long enough!


You must be smoking some seriously good weed of you think he city of Dallas would ever close DAL.
 
mikejepp
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:25 pm

I don't see how in every merger and divesture, Southwest screams that it isn't being treated fairly and gets other airlines' gates and all..... but also manages to take over entire, important, airports for itself. Look at DAL and MDW.... probably two of the most anti-competition friendly airports in the country and nobody bats an eye.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:28 pm

Sydscott wrote:
enilria wrote:
I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this.


I wish the City of Dallas would step in and say either:

Option A) You guys get together and settle this within a set time period outside of Court and stop wasting ratepayers money; OR

Option B) If the airlines can't settle it the Airport will be closed for good and you'll all have to go to DFW.

This nonsense has gone on long enough!


Dallas Love Field is not going to close, ever.
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:32 pm

That's why AA was so vocal for not having Wright Ammendment repealed... If WN is complaining about competition, why was that measure eliminated? If it was repealed is for whoever was interested to fly in to Love was going to be able to do it to wherever whenver and an open market for everyone, and now the 1000 lb behemoth of the airport is complaining about a little challenge from competitors?
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UpNAWAy
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:40 pm

I wonder the procedural purpose of the filing? SW certainly doesn't need anyone to answer those questions. I bet they already know the answers within a 3-4% range what is the point?
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:52 pm

LUV gone out of control at Love!
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:31 pm

Southwest is just using all remedies at its disposal by law. It is exactly why we have the court system.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:41 pm

my comment apparently disappeared... I surely didn't delete it.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:00 pm

[quote="enilria"

More broadly, if DAL and DFW are treated as one airport from a competitive point of view it has dire implications for Washington and New York.

[/quote]


From a competitive stand point THEY ARE part of one market. They are a whopping 12 miles apart. I run into people from Ft Worth at Love Field all the time because WN has cheaper fares. When WN's fares are too high, people fly out of DFW instead.

Despite being an admitted WN fanboy, I'll fly out of DFW when it makes economic sense to do so. My last rip to Chicago was on United, and my flight tomorrow to Chicago is on United. The would not be happening if this is two markets.
 
N383SW
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:11 pm

usxguy wrote:
Alaska should counter with the same demands. There are a handful of flights that are a non-rev's dream, on a regular basis, out of Love Field.

And which flights would those be?
 
TerminalD
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:11 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
I wonder the procedural purpose of the filing? SW certainly doesn't need anyone to answer those questions. I bet they already know the answers within a 3-4% range what is the point?

Actually, yes they can recreate AS flight profitability, BUT it is unimaginably valuable to see it the way AS sees it. There are 10,000 choices of how to allocate expenses in creating a flight profitability, also significant differences in how connecting traffic is valued. If they can backsolve that from an example they can determine how to make an AS route look as bad as possible in the AS system through competitive actions. That's why this is SOOOOOO wrong.

If they were able to determine the AS system, for example, prioritized local traffic in their grading metric they could use it to alter the timing of competitive flights to put more pressure on local traffic. Conversely, if they find connecting traffic is the bigger driver they could find large AS connecting O&Ds and add them non-stop to drag down the route's performance. Keep in mind, this does not only impact DAL. Finding those sorts of answers can be applied against everywhere WN and AS compete. This is truly evil.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:21 pm

TerminalD wrote:
[quote="UpNAWAy This is truly evil.


The courts will determine whether or not this is appropriate - not you.
 
TerminalD
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:29 pm

bob75013 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
[quote="UpNAWAy This is truly evil.


The courts will determine whether or not this is appropriate - not you.

Oh, I thought we were allowed to have opinions?

BTW, if it was United asking it from American I would say the same thing. It's just wrong, regardless of who is involved.
 
drdisque
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:51 pm

MDW has 3 gates in Concourse C and plenty of counter space if someone wants to come there. No takers.
 
texan
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:01 pm

There is only the smallest of chances a judge would order AS to produce their route profitability. And on the off chance it was ordered, AS would be appealing that decision faster than you could say ‘What the fudge?’ That information would likely be considered a trade secret or similar.

Let’s run a hypothetical, though. So if a judge orders the release and it is upheld on appeal (which, again, I give almost no chance of happening), that would set a precedent for future challenges. Release of profitability data would open the door for predation cases to be successful, which would be a boon for start-up carriers fighting against the incumbents. And that would include fighting WN in court.

From a legal strategy perspective, I get why WN asked for the information: on the off-chance a judge ordered AS to provide it, WN could potentially prove predation on some routes or that AS was up to some other tomfoolery. It would, at the very least, be a bit of a black eye for a competitor. The consequences of that decision could be beneficial to travellers in the long run, though, assuming new entrants pushed back hard against the incumbents.

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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:14 pm

texan wrote:
Let’s run a hypothetical, though. So if a judge orders the release and it is upheld on appeal (which, again, I give almost no chance of happening), that would set a precedent for future challenges. Release of profitability data would open the door for predation cases to be successful, which would be a boon for start-up carriers fighting against the incumbents. And that would include fighting WN in court.
Texan


I am pretty sure that precedents have already been established.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:17 pm

drdisque wrote:
MDW has 3 gates in Concourse C and plenty of counter space if someone wants to come there. No takers.

But WN has something like 91% of the market. Very hard to compete with that. DAL and MDW are the most dominated large markets in the country. Yes, you can define a market as not a single airport, but then you are allowing DL to own 90% of LGA or AA 90% of DCA. Not a reasonable outcome.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:22 pm

mikejepp wrote:
I don't see how in every merger and divesture, Southwest screams that it isn't being treated fairly and gets other airlines' gates and all..... but also manages to take over entire, important, airports for itself. Look at DAL and MDW.... probably two of the most anti-competition friendly airports in the country and nobody bats an eye.


MDW has plenty of space for new carriers. If DAL had 43 gates, it likely would too. I'm not unsympathetic to WN's predicament because it could fill more than 20 gates at DAL. I'm sympathetic to AS and DL, who seemingly have good faith desires to make a DAL operation work. I am wholly unsympathetic to the various governments and to AA. They all did this to themselves.
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:44 pm

TerminalD wrote:
drdisque wrote:
MDW has 3 gates in Concourse C and plenty of counter space if someone wants to come there. No takers.

But WN has something like 91% of the market. Very hard to compete with that.


F9 and SY used to serve MDW at Concourse C. F9 switched to ORD. At ORD, Frontier tried routes like ORD-PHL/ATL etc. but has since deleted them and now is trying a mix of routes including some niche routes like ORD-PNS on Wed/Sat. As such, it might as well move back to MDW where it can be more visible as one of the alternatives to Southwest, rather than be a tiny carrier at ORD where there are so many other choices and Spirit has been the ULCC covering the popular markets. ORD is closer to more of the greater Chicago region and has more amenities, e.g. airport hotels in nearby vicinity, a probable reason why most smaller carriers prefer serving ORD over MDW and the carrier that serves both (Delta) offers more flights at ORD over MDW.
Last edited by phluser on Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:44 pm

TerminalD wrote:
drdisque wrote:
MDW has 3 gates in Concourse C and plenty of counter space if someone wants to come there. No takers.

But WN has something like 91% of the market. Very hard to compete with that. DAL and MDW are the most dominated large markets in the country. Yes, you can define a market as not a single airport, but then you are allowing DL to own 90% of LGA or AA 90% of DCA. Not a reasonable outcome.


WN has 91% of MDW while AA and UA have a giant hub up the road at ORD. NK and F9 have a good focus out of ORD as well. MDW has pretty short runways, let's not forget that. Not too short that other carriers can't operate from there, but short enough that certain destinations are limited. DL makes a good go out of both MDW and DAL, and they are the only legacy carrier to serve DAL/DFW and MDW/ORD. IAH and HOU are another one. However, if you notice, MDW/ORD are AA/UA hubs along with WN. DFW/DAL is an AA Megahub, as well as a gate restricted hub for WN, and IAH/HOU is a UA megahub (ex CO) and HOU has a large WN presence. What other takers could there be? We don't really have that many airlines in this country anymore, and all of these airports lack much service from legacies because their competing airport is a large hub.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:56 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
texan wrote:
Let’s run a hypothetical, though. So if a judge orders the release and it is upheld on appeal (which, again, I give almost no chance of happening), that would set a precedent for future challenges. Release of profitability data would open the door for predation cases to be successful, which would be a boon for start-up carriers fighting against the incumbents. And that would include fighting WN in court.
Texan


I am pretty sure that precedents have already been established.


Not to take this thread too far off topic, but there aren’t precedents in favour of airlines releasing profitability information even in predation cases that I am aware of. The Spirit Airlines v Northwest Airlines case in the 6th circuit (I think—don’t have the case in front of me) allowed the inference based on load and fare information and NW’s response when Spirit left the market. Even then, that only would have let the case proceed to a jury had the case not been subject to the automatic stay based on NW’s Chapter 11 filing.

But again, it was a hypothetical in which the judge agrees to WN’s request and a circuit court and possibly the Supreme Court uphold it. Basically taking this to the extreme of what could happen, which would require overturning previous rulings.

Texan
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:10 pm

I'm surprised we haven't heard from a certain AS employee commenting how unfair this is. But, to agree with others, the judicial system will at some point render its decision. I've got popcorn with butter ready to go for this show.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:04 pm

N383SW wrote:
usxguy wrote:
Alaska should counter with the same demands. There are a handful of flights that are a non-rev's dream, on a regular basis, out of Love Field.

And which flights would those be?


I'm wondering the same thing. Unless you're going to SAT or HOU at 6am or 10pm, DAL is one of the HARDEST airports in the country to non-rev to/from.

Everyone knows once you get out of DAL it's a lot easier to move about the country.
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:07 pm

Well I for one was all in favor of "Setting Love Free". The 20 gate cap and the agreed upon 16 gates for WN and 4 for the rest of the carriers in the US seemed a ridiculous agreement but that's what happens when you have AA/Ft. Worth on one side and WN/Dallas on the other. Now WN has 17.5 gates and wants 18 at the expense of AS/DL. So here's my proposal: Give WN all 20 existing gates. Make WN pay half for the construction of 12 new gates for everyone else with an ironclad stipulation that until the end of time WN will never be allowed to operate even a single flight from the 12 new gates. Then let the players involved bid on the 12 new gates with the ironclad stipulation that no airline can have more than 3.5 of the new gates. If that doesn't make everyone happy...turn DAL into a corporate/cargo airport or just nuke the damned thing.
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jplatts
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:01 am

There are at least 13 additional destinations that Southwest could add daily nonstop service to out of Dallas Love Field if it had room to do so, including Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Corpus Christi, Hartford, Jacksonville, Louisville, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Newark, Norfolk, Richmond, Tucson, and Washington-Dulles, and Alaska does not even serve 9 of these 13 destinations. In addition, Delta does not have a hub or focus city in 11 of these 13 destinations, and Delta would not be adding nonstop service to any of those 11 destinations out of DAL.

There are only 5 SWA airports that Delta Air Lines does not serve, and these 5 airports are AMA, CRP, LBB, MAF, and ISP (the first 4 are located in Texas and the 5th one is located on Long Island east of LGA and JFK). Delta Air Lines does have seasonal nonstop service from HRL to MSP, but Delta does not serve any of its other hubs nonstop from HRL and Delta does not have year-round service out of HRL. Delta Air Lines does serve all of the other SWA airports, including DAL, HOU, AUS, SAT, and ELP in Texas, including BUF, ROC, ALB, and LGA in the state of New York, including all of the SWA airports in the other 39 U.S. states that SWA currently operates in, and including all of the SWA airports located outside of the U.S.

While there are 4 markets in Texas that Southwest serves but Delta does not serve, there are many destinations in the contiguous U.S., the state of Alaska, the state of Hawaii, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and 46 foreign countries that are served by Delta Air Lines but not by Southwest Airlines. Delta is able to connect passengers from DAL through ATL to Delta's destinations on the East Coast of the U.S., to Delta's destinations in South America, the Caribbean, Europe, and Africa, onto flights to Europe operated by Delta's codeshare partners Air France, KLM, and Virgin Atlantic, and to European destinations served by Air France, KLM, and/or Virgin Atlantic.

In addition, Alaska Airlines serves destinations in Alaska, Alberta, British Columbia, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, and Washington state that Southwest Airlines does not serve. Alaska Airlines can connect passengers traveling from DAL to Alaska Airlines's destinations in these 7 U.S. states and 2 Canadian provinces through its SEA, PDX, and LAX hubs.

While I can understand Southwest wanting to serve additional destinations in the contiguous U.S. nonstop from DAL and while Southwest can connect passengers to SWA destinations in Texas that are not served by Alaska or Delta through DAL from cities that have nonstop service out of DAL, the Alaska and Delta flights out of DAL provide access to destinations that are not served by Southwest Airlines along with access to DAL from many cities throughout the world.
 
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 am

My only issue with this suggestion is that it works on the mantra that WN prevented other carriers from entering DAL while the WA was in effect, the blame for that goes to the other carriers who decided that the Texas two step did not make any sense and the cities of DAL, Ft.Worth and DFW who implemented the WA in the first place and who continued it with the new WA with the 20 gate limit.
I still say WN should not have agreed to the new WA and should have continued the fight for full repeal, the limitation of 20 gates with 18 to WN looks bad regardless of how it smells.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:10 am

dochawk2 wrote:
The SW/Love Field/Wright fiasco continues. Common sense has never reared its level head.

>>THIS<<
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us330
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:55 am

enilria wrote:
I'm going to call this brazenly anti-competitive. I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this. This is a bit of a joke as they already know how many flights AS/VS operates and their loads through T100 and the airport's data reporting of enplanements. They are just asking for that to hide getting Alaska's flight profitability.

More broadly, if DAL and DFW are treated as one airport from a competitive point of view it has dire implications for Washington and New York.

Through a process called discovery, Southwest is seeking information on how many flights Virgin operates into and out of Love, as well as how full those flights are and how profitable they are.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... xpand.html


Just because they demand something through discovery doesn't mean that they are going to get it.

To put things in perspective, during the discovery process, it is common for opposing parties to request lots of information--and it is to their advantage to have their document requests be as open and all-encompassing as possible.

That doesn't mean the other party has to provide certain information. Before documents are sent to the opposing party, the submitting party reviews the documents in question and removes any that could be protected by lawyer-client privilege or are highly sensitive trade secrets.

If Alaska's lawyers are competent, the only information Southwest is likely to get out of this is information that is already publicly available.

This is just standard legal maneuvering and lawyer shenanigans.
 
N626AA
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:24 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Well I for one was all in favor of "Setting Love Free". The 20 gate cap and the agreed upon 16 gates for WN and 4 for the rest of the carriers in the US seemed a ridiculous agreement but that's what happens when you have AA/Ft. Worth on one side and WN/Dallas on the other. Now WN has 17.5 gates and wants 18 at the expense of AS/DL. So here's my proposal: Give WN all 20 existing gates. Make WN pay half for the construction of 12 new gates for everyone else with an ironclad stipulation that until the end of time WN will never be allowed to operate even a single flight from the 12 new gates. Then let the players involved bid on the 12 new gates with the ironclad stipulation that no airline can have more than 3.5 of the new gates. If that doesn't make everyone happy...turn DAL into a corporate/cargo airport or just nuke the damned thing.


Yeah nuke 'em, that'll teach 'em (Being sarcastic too) I see what you're saying though. Say that DAL did make that ironclad proposition to WN. How likely is WN to pack up and completely pull all hub ops out of DAL except for a few daily flights on their best money makers, and divy up the rest of their hub ops to say MEM or STL that have a lot of empty gate space? Or do you guys think WN would lawyer up from here to Christmas and say "game on"?
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par13del
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:44 pm

Anything is possible but I would hope they would decline, I am not on the side of WN having this cozy relationship with the city of DAL.
The city of DAL was and is a full member of the continuing WA saga, they did not push for the implementation of the initial WA or the current version to "protect" WN from competition, they did so to prevent WN from being successful operating commercial flights at DAL which they wanted for GA only and with the new version to limit their expansion growth to DFW or elsewhere.
 
sw733
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 pm

Ugh...don't get me wrong, I generally (not always) enjoy my flights on Southwest, but come on...this is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes I truly feel that Southwest is actively trying to end competition, which isn't unique to Southwest by any means, but somehow they seem to be winning more often than others.

bob75013 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
[quote="UpNAWAy This is truly evil.


The courts will determine whether or not this is appropriate - not you.


All right folks, threads shut down, no opinions allowed. Bob said so.
 
txjim
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:48 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are at least 13 additional destinations that Southwest could add daily nonstop service to out of Dallas Love Field if it had room to do so, including Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Corpus Christi, Hartford, Jacksonville, Louisville, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Newark, Norfolk, Richmond, Tucson, and Washington-Dulles, and Alaska does not even serve 9 of these 13 destinations. In addition, Delta does not have a hub or focus city in 11 of these 13 destinations, and Delta would not be adding nonstop service to any of those 11 destinations out of DAL.


<snip>

If WN stopped opposing Texas High Speed Rail, they would be able to reduce HOU flights and have plenty of gate space :D (Yes, I know, i's a cash cow....)

TerminalD wrote:
drdisque wrote:
MDW has 3 gates in Concourse C and plenty of counter space if someone wants to come there. No takers.

But WN has something like 91% of the market. Very hard to compete with that. DAL and MDW are the most dominated large markets in the country. Yes, you can define a market as not a single airport, but then you are allowing DL to own 90% of LGA or AA 90% of DCA. Not a reasonable outcome.


If this is true, than why does DL want to maintain their very small number of flights at DAL? By your logic, they should have run away long ago.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:14 pm

I think this is less a move to go after AS as it is to force someone else to challenge the unfair gate capping rule at DAL.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:47 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
I think this is less a move to go after AS as it is to force someone else to challenge the unfair gate capping rule at DAL.

That is about the only way to get the WARA restrictions lifted, since WN, per that agreement, is prevented from doing so.
 
TerminalD
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:55 pm

txjim wrote:

If this is true, than why does DL want to maintain their very small number of flights at DAL? By your logic, they should have run away long ago.

They've made very clear they want more than that. This is a step in that process in their eyes.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:55 pm

N626AA wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Well I for one was all in favor of "Setting Love Free". The 20 gate cap and the agreed upon 16 gates for WN and 4 for the rest of the carriers in the US seemed a ridiculous agreement but that's what happens when you have AA/Ft. Worth on one side and WN/Dallas on the other. Now WN has 17.5 gates and wants 18 at the expense of AS/DL. So here's my proposal: Give WN all 20 existing gates. Make WN pay half for the construction of 12 new gates for everyone else with an ironclad stipulation that until the end of time WN will never be allowed to operate even a single flight from the 12 new gates. Then let the players involved bid on the 12 new gates with the ironclad stipulation that no airline can have more than 3.5 of the new gates. If that doesn't make everyone happy...turn DAL into a corporate/cargo airport or just nuke the damned thing.


Yeah nuke 'em, that'll teach 'em (Being sarcastic too) I see what you're saying though. Say that DAL did make that ironclad proposition to WN. How likely is WN to pack up and completely pull all hub ops out of DAL except for a few daily flights on their best money makers, and divy up the rest of their hub ops to say MEM or STL that have a lot of empty gate space? Or do you guys think WN would lawyer up from here to Christmas and say "game on"?


I wasn't suggesting that WN dump DAL, nor do I ever expect them to. But this DAL fiasco has gone on for far too long. Dump the gate cap or revise it and let the players play. If DL for instance had the space, we would see DL flights to ATL, DTW, LGA,MSP and SLC for sure. Maybe JFK, LAX and SEA as well. But for one airline to control 17.5 out of 20 gates at a "restricted" airport is nonsense. AA/US had to give up slots at DCA and LGA in order to merge, even though the combined carrier still had less slots at LGA than DL does. Why should WN get a virtually exclusive airport in a major metro area to itself?
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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atypical
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Well I for one was all in favor of "Setting Love Free". The 20 gate cap and the agreed upon 16 gates for WN and 4 for the rest of the carriers in the US seemed a ridiculous agreement but that's what happens when you have AA/Ft. Worth on one side and WN/Dallas on the other. Now WN has 17.5 gates and wants 18 at the expense of AS/DL. So here's my proposal: Give WN all 20 existing gates. Make WN pay half for the construction of 12 new gates for everyone else with an ironclad stipulation that until the end of time WN will never be allowed to operate even a single flight from the 12 new gates. Then let the players involved bid on the 12 new gates with the ironclad stipulation that no airline can have more than 3.5 of the new gates. If that doesn't make everyone happy...turn DAL into a corporate/cargo airport or just nuke the damned thing.


This is a great idea except for the hard part. Whatever needs to happen takes an act of law by the US government. A politician proposing a bill that is crafted without the approval of all sides would land in a storm of crap that would outweigh any benefit they could possibly derive. And even if there was a Senator or Representative who was politically suicidal they certainly aren't going to get enough politicians who are bent on self destruction to get the bill through any committee much less to a full vote. Any solution needs to come from all the parties concerned. That means the five from the "Five Party Agreement" and now possibly others.

Finding a good solution is easy in comparison to getting it to pass Congress.
 
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atypical
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:23 am

enilria wrote:
I'm going to call this brazenly anti-competitive. I wish the DOT would somehow step in and do something about this. This is a bit of a joke as they already know how many flights AS/VS operates and their loads through T100 and the airport's data reporting of enplanements. They are just asking for that to hide getting Alaska's flight profitability.

More broadly, if DAL and DFW are treated as one airport from a competitive point of view it has dire implications for Washington and New York.

Through a process called discovery, Southwest is seeking information on how many flights Virgin operates into and out of Love, as well as how full those flights are and how profitable they are.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... xpand.html


DOT has a Compliance Investigation that is looking at the possible violations of three provisions of the AIP. DOT has filed several extensions of the Director's Determination with extension ending on January 10, 2017. Since then nothing further has been filed. The DOT is currently violating its own regulations in, what I can only suspect, is a delay to release a determination that concludes violations in hopes the parties can come to some arrangement that spares Dallas billions of dollars. This is noting that there is no reason to delay findings of no violations since this is not appealable.
 
USAirKid
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:40 am

sw733 wrote:
Ugh...don't get me wrong, I generally (not always) enjoy my flights on Southwest, but come on...this is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes I truly feel that Southwest is actively trying to end competition, which isn't unique to Southwest by any means, but somehow they seem to be winning more often than others.

bob75013 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
[quote="UpNAWAy This is truly evil.


The courts will determine whether or not this is appropriate - not you.


All right folks, threads shut down, no opinions allowed. Bob said so.


This is one of the reasons why I admire Southwest from afar, but I'm not itching to try them is (That and geography has tied my loyalties to L-US and now AS.) how Southwest keeps playing the underdog card, fighting every fight as if the company's continued existence depended on it, and even getting the regulators to worship them just gets old. Southwest isn't a teenager who can push their way around and get a pass for "oh, they're just being young underdog kids, look at them!" They're now a major airline, in their 40s that still wants to act like they're just trying to make it to the ripe old age of 15. An adult would've sat down at the table, and leased some time at the gate out and called it a day, not running to mommy government claiming that the other big bad airline is trespassing on their gate.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:30 am

IF WN wants to own Love field.... then they need to buy the whole airport... Give the city an offer it can't refuse... with the only stipulation that WN can get back to 32 gates by 2024.

A 32 gate Hub at DAL would be great for WN.... Just buy the thing....

Wait... I read the law on this a few months back... they can't.... Commercial airports can't be privately owned by an airline... it's a vertical monopoly type of thing.
learning never stops.
 
USAirKid
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 am

ODwyerPW wrote:

Wait... I read the law on this a few months back... they can't.... Commercial airports can't be privately owned by an airline... it's a vertical monopoly type of thing.


Do you have a link for that? Airborne Express (both an airline and a shipping company) owned ILN for many years.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:12 pm

atypical wrote:
Whatever needs to happen takes an act of law by the US government. A politician proposing a bill that is crafted without the approval of all sides would land in a storm of crap that would outweigh any benefit they could possibly derive. And even if there was a Senator or Representative who was politically suicidal they certainly aren't going to get enough politicians who are bent on self destruction to get the bill through any committee much less to a full vote. .


Sorry, but I disagree. THE REASON the new WARA came into existence was because acts of congress forced it. NO ONE in TX was lobbying for a Wright amendment change. First a senator attached an amendment to a transportation bill that allowed flights to Kansas. Then the same thing happened a different time that opened up Alabama. Then it happened a third time opening up Missouri. Ft Worth, DFW, and AA panicked - when they realized that OH, PA, NY, CA and others were likely to follow and there was nothing they could do to stop unregulated growth from happening at Love Field.

So it won't take a suicidal politician in TX to file yet another amendment to yet another transportation bill to modify WARA, instead maybe a politician from AS or DL (or some other airline's) home state will do it -- just as happened with KS, AL, and MO .
 
kiowa
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:21 pm

I would think that the people of Dallas would benefit from having a quality carrier in competition with swa at DAL. A monopoly is never a good thing in capitolism.
 
Sooner787
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:27 pm

I think DL should keep their powder dry and focus on the Collin County Airport in McKinney.

With the population explosion up in that part of the metroplex, that airport has the potential

to become another John Wayne SNA size airport.
 
slider
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:31 pm

mikejepp wrote:
I don't see how in every merger and divesture, Southwest screams that it isn't being treated fairly and gets other airlines' gates and all..... but also manages to take over entire, important, airports for itself. Look at DAL and MDW.... probably two of the most anti-competition friendly airports in the country and nobody bats an eye.


Exactly right. And then they continue to be Teflon in the eyes of a fawning media.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14169
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Re: WN Demands AS Route Profitability for DAL in Court Filings

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:42 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
N626AA wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Well I for one was all in favor of "Setting Love Free". The 20 gate cap and the agreed upon 16 gates for WN and 4 for the rest of the carriers in the US seemed a ridiculous agreement but that's what happens when you have AA/Ft. Worth on one side and WN/Dallas on the other. Now WN has 17.5 gates and wants 18 at the expense of AS/DL. So here's my proposal: Give WN all 20 existing gates. Make WN pay half for the construction of 12 new gates for everyone else with an ironclad stipulation that until the end of time WN will never be allowed to operate even a single flight from the 12 new gates. Then let the players involved bid on the 12 new gates with the ironclad stipulation that no airline can have more than 3.5 of the new gates. If that doesn't make everyone happy...turn DAL into a corporate/cargo airport or just nuke the damned thing.


Yeah nuke 'em, that'll teach 'em (Being sarcastic too) I see what you're saying though. Say that DAL did make that ironclad proposition to WN. How likely is WN to pack up and completely pull all hub ops out of DAL except for a few daily flights on their best money makers, and divy up the rest of their hub ops to say MEM or STL that have a lot of empty gate space? Or do you guys think WN would lawyer up from here to Christmas and say "game on"?


I wasn't suggesting that WN dump DAL, nor do I ever expect them to. But this DAL fiasco has gone on for far too long. Dump the gate cap or revise it and let the players play. If DL for instance had the space, we would see DL flights to ATL, DTW, LGA,MSP and SLC for sure. Maybe JFK, LAX and SEA as well. But for one airline to control 17.5 out of 20 gates at a "restricted" airport is nonsense. AA/US had to give up slots at DCA and LGA in order to merge, even though the combined carrier still had less slots at LGA than DL does. Why should WN get a virtually exclusive airport in a major metro area to itself?


WN has been committed to a hub as large as the government will permit at DAL for 40 years. Surely that ought to count for something.
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