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Andy33
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:34 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Anyone here consider Aegean Airlines?

I don't think they have any nextgen NB on order at the moment.

They want to increase fleet size to 70 aircraft, apparently.

The CSeries would be an amazing aircraft for them.

Great efficiency, sufficient capacity to allow for increased frequency and enough range for any/all of there missions.


They are pondering between A320series neo and 737MAX at this very moment. The difficulty the C-series has is that the current fleet contains 8 A321s seating 195 in full economy mode, with middle seats blocked on rows sold as business class in the usual Euro-business style. These are used on flights to slot controlled airports such as LHR, where adding frequency simply isn't an option.
aerolimani wrote:
Not to mention good short field performance that could be useful for bringing jet service to popular tourist destinations with short runways.

Which specific airports do you have in mind? There are certainly Greek island and mainland airports with short field issues, but most popular tourist destinations have A320/738 flights direct from other parts of Europe. I'm struggling to come up with more than isolated examples of Greek airports that are currently served solely by turboprops where the runway could manage a C-series, and they'd certainly need a new terminal before one operated there, since the terminals are right-sized for having one ATR42/Dash8-100 flight at a time.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:52 am

Andy33 wrote:
Which specific airports do you have in mind? There are certainly Greek island and mainland airports with short field issues, but most popular tourist destinations have A320/738 flights direct from other parts of Europe. I'm struggling to come up with more than isolated examples of Greek airports that are currently served solely by turboprops where the runway could manage a C-series, and they'd certainly need a new terminal before one operated there, since the terminals are right-sized for having one ATR42/Dash8-100 flight at a time.

Pretty much anywhere the Q400 goes. It's not a lot, but still, the CSeries could allow them to bring more flying completely in house, and reduce the Olympic fleet.

I was thinking more about how cool it would be more Aegean to fly the CSeries. However, I don't honestly see them as being the mystery customer of this thread. The numbers don't add up; the 30 + 31options. The whole fleet is only 46 aircraft right now, and most of those are A320 with 160 seats.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:21 am

Couprace wrote:
StTim wrote:
Why would there be tariffs if the frame was exported from the US. That really would be shooting yourself in the foot.



The tariffs would be levied on parts coming into the US ie. wings from Ireland


The tariff is on completed frames, not parts. If they are assembled in the US the tariff is not in effect. Also AF planes can be assembled in Canada and they would not have a tariff to go from Canada to France!
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:23 am

Andy33 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
Anyone here consider Aegean Airlines?

I don't think they have any nextgen NB on order at the moment.

They want to increase fleet size to 70 aircraft, apparently.

The CSeries would be an amazing aircraft for them.

Great efficiency, sufficient capacity to allow for increased frequency and enough range for any/all of there missions.


They are pondering between A320series neo and 737MAX at this very moment. The difficulty the C-series has is that the current fleet contains 8 A321s seating 195 in full economy mode, with middle seats blocked on rows sold as business class in the usual Euro-business style. These are used on flights to slot controlled airports such as LHR, where adding frequency simply isn't an option.
aerolimani wrote:
Not to mention good short field performance that could be useful for bringing jet service to popular tourist destinations with short runways.

Which specific airports do you have in mind? There are certainly Greek island and mainland airports with short field issues, but most popular tourist destinations have A320/738 flights direct from other parts of Europe. I'm struggling to come up with more than isolated examples of Greek airports that are currently served solely by turboprops where the runway could manage a C-series, and they'd certainly need a new terminal before one operated there, since the terminals are right-sized for having one ATR42/Dash8-100 flight at a time.


On the 2x3 airframes they rotate 1 of each seat pair blocked & on the 3x side the middle seat. makes it 1x2 seating in business. So that would not be a problem.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:43 am

thumper76 wrote:
I am sure Airbus will be willing to trade for some low hr A319's. Airbus has said that they are cancelling the 319. To have some low hr A319's on hand to sell with new NEO'S to airlines that require cominality in their fleet would be very useful


Where did Airbus say they are canceling the A319neo?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:51 am

AirInterCRV wrote:
I doubt it will be AF. AFAIK, with the anecdotal exception of Cocorde, AF mainline hasn't flown anything non-GE/CFMI/EA powered for decades. Now, they will be operating RR-powered A350s, so never say never - but still, incorporating PW engines into their MRO / logistics operations could be an issue.

+ at AF level, they have a hard commitment to the A320 family (never operated DC-9s or derivatives, last 737 retired in 2007). In terms of pilot training and seniority management, interchangeability, commonality, etc. introducing a whole new different type could be a headache. If there's an airline that could use the 319neo, to me it's AF.


The CS series keeps side stick controllers of the A320/A359/A380 series as well.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:04 am

MD80MKE wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I just don't understand that obsession with AF ? They have a ton of Boeing planes....


They do have a lot of Boeing aircraft. However there's a pretty clear divide in the fleet.

The longhaul work horse is the 777, supplemented by a380s, and some a330/a340s. (There are 43 77w alone, versus 45 total Airbus) with only Boeings in order, it's pretty clear that the longhaul fleet is going to be Boeing.

Short /medium haul on the other hand is composed entirely of Airbus. 82 aircraft, all in the Airbus a32x series.

So really, no single preference to either side

Given the political ties between AF, Airbus, the French government, and Quebec this really wouldn't be a big surprise

With only Boeing on order? How about that 21 A359 on order?


They have 15 A332 & 9 A340-300 and only 21 A359 on order. Close to even replacement. They also have 3 787-900 in the fleet.
 
Andy33
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:20 am

aerolimani wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
Which specific airports do you have in mind? There are certainly Greek island and mainland airports with short field issues, but most popular tourist destinations have A320/738 flights direct from other parts of Europe. I'm struggling to come up with more than isolated examples of Greek airports that are currently served solely by turboprops where the runway could manage a C-series, and they'd certainly need a new terminal before one operated there, since the terminals are right-sized for having one ATR42/Dash8-100 flight at a time.

Pretty much anywhere the Q400 goes. It's not a lot, but still, the CSeries could allow them to bring more flying completely in house, and reduce the Olympic fleet.



Olympic is both a wholly owned subsidiary of Aegean and the brand under which domestic flights of both airlines are marketed. In the same way, international flights operated by Olympic's Q400s are marketed as Aegean. There isn't anywhere they take a Q400 that isn't used by A320s/738s of one airline or another, either year round or in summer only. After the cutbacks caused by the Greek economic crisis, there are only 8 Q400s in the Olympic fleet.
When you mentioned short field performance I thought you were suggesting that the small island airports in the Cyclades and Dodecanese groups such as Paros, Milos, Naxos, Kastellorizo, Kalymnos, Leros, and Astypalea could manage a C-Series, and unless major changes have happened very recently, I don't think they can - they're stuck with ATR42s and Dash8-100s of Olympic or other operators, and they're also mostly subsidised PSO destinations, not mass tourism ones.
 
Andy33
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:33 am

rbavfan wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
Anyone here consider Aegean Airlines?

I don't think they have any nextgen NB on order at the moment.

They want to increase fleet size to 70 aircraft, apparently.

The CSeries would be an amazing aircraft for them.

Great efficiency, sufficient capacity to allow for increased frequency and enough range for any/all of there missions.


They are pondering between A320series neo and 737MAX at this very moment. The difficulty the C-series has is that the current fleet contains 8 A321s seating 195 in full economy mode, with middle seats blocked on rows sold as business class in the usual Euro-business style. These are used on flights to slot controlled airports such as LHR, where adding frequency simply isn't an option.


On the 2x3 airframes they rotate 1 of each seat pair blocked & on the 3x side the middle seat. makes it 1x2 seating in business. So that would not be a problem.

No, the problem is that CS300 is only certified for a maximum of 160 passengers, and the A321s already being used are fitted with 195 seats. If the seats weren't being filled profitably they'd use their 168 seat A320s instead, and on routes like LHR and FRA you can't just add more flights, you have to get slots at times which make sense for connections at one end or the other, or preferably both. Buying one extra slot pair at LHR pretty much wipes out any cost saving from the C-Series being more efficient planes for years to come. As the CS500 doesn't exist yet and can't be ordered yet, we don't know what its certified maximum capacity will be,
 
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Ab345
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:13 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Anyone here consider Aegean Airlines?

I don't think they have any nextgen NB on order at the moment.

They want to increase fleet size to 70 aircraft, apparently.

The CSeries would be an amazing aircraft for them.

Great efficiency, sufficient capacity to allow for increased frequency and enough range for any/all of there missions.


Aegean has issued an RFP to Airbus and Boeing for either the Neo or Max. Although they received some Sharklet ceos recently most of their A320s are getting older and some ex-Monarch A321 they got last year for extra capacity are even older. You could say that they could use the CSeries for OA but given the routes that OA flies even the Q400s are a bit much. Personally I think even the A320 is getting a bit tight for the major EU routes, so maybe a split A320/321neo order? I see little chance of going over to Boeing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gree ... SKBN1CE1IB
 
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Brixerl
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:58 pm

In another thread we are told, that David Neeleman has acquired 32 % of the second largest french airline Aigle Azur: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379003

Aigle Azur today has a fleet of 2 A319-100 and 9 A320-200. Maybe with the backing of Neeleman and the HNA-group Aigle Azur is a candidate for this potential upcoming CS-order (my number one stays Volotea, as mentioned above).
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Polot
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:21 pm

rbavfan wrote:
AirInterCRV wrote:
I doubt it will be AF. AFAIK, with the anecdotal exception of Cocorde, AF mainline hasn't flown anything non-GE/CFMI/EA powered for decades. Now, they will be operating RR-powered A350s, so never say never - but still, incorporating PW engines into their MRO / logistics operations could be an issue.

+ at AF level, they have a hard commitment to the A320 family (never operated DC-9s or derivatives, last 737 retired in 2007). In terms of pilot training and seniority management, interchangeability, commonality, etc. introducing a whole new different type could be a headache. If there's an airline that could use the 319neo, to me it's AF.


The CS series keeps side stick controllers of the A320/A359/A380 series as well.

Presence (or lack) of side stick controllers has little to do with type commonality (which the C series has very little of with the A320 right now).
 
jbs2886
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Brixerl wrote:
In another thread we are told, that David Neeleman has acquired 32 % of the second largest french airline Aigle Azur: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379003

Aigle Azur today has a fleet of 2 A319-100 and 9 A320-200. Maybe with the backing of Neeleman and the HNA-group Aigle Azur is a candidate for this potential upcoming CS-order (my number one stays Volotea, as mentioned above).


Except Neeleman's airlines almost all have Embraer.
 
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Brixerl
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:32 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Brixerl wrote:
In another thread we are told, that David Neeleman has acquired 32 % of the second largest french airline Aigle Azur: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379003

Aigle Azur today has a fleet of 2 A319-100 and 9 A320-200. Maybe with the backing of Neeleman and the HNA-group Aigle Azur is a candidate for this potential upcoming CS-order (my number one stays Volotea, as mentioned above).


Except Neeleman's airlines almost all have Embraer.


And Airbus ;)
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jbs2886
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:35 pm

Brixerl wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Brixerl wrote:
In another thread we are told, that David Neeleman has acquired 32 % of the second largest french airline Aigle Azur: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379003

Aigle Azur today has a fleet of 2 A319-100 and 9 A320-200. Maybe with the backing of Neeleman and the HNA-group Aigle Azur is a candidate for this potential upcoming CS-order (my number one stays Volotea, as mentioned above).


Except Neeleman's airlines almost all have Embraer.


And Airbus ;)


Right, but that's not relevant - the point is that for smaller than Airbus/Boeing, those airlines have gone Embraer (not that the C Series was available then) and will probably continue to do so. Neeleman also is Brazilian so he could reasonably prefer Embraer, too.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:43 am

I highly suspect it's LH (Group). If the pilot deal goes through (currently in ballot), they need to expand the KTV flying (overall), while it's partly shrinking, as the 4U part is moved to EW. So they need aircraft. Also the number kind of makes sense. It could be the 30 options and the one ntu by KE.
There are also rumours emerging (on german sites) that the Embraers from OS could move back to Cityline (they used to be operated by KTV pilots and cityline cabin) plus the 7 OS A319 would make up 24 aircraft to be replaced. Moreover Swiss is keeping their A319s as interim lift to expand the Germany flying (after ABs demise) and thus need some extra CS should they be replaced.
 
caribb
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 am

DUSZRH wrote:
I highly suspect it's LH (Group). If the pilot deal goes through (currently in ballot), they need to expand the KTV flying (overall), while it's partly shrinking, as the 4U part is moved to EW. So they need aircraft. Also the number kind of makes sense. It could be the 30 options and the one ntu by KE.
There are also rumours emerging (on german sites) that the Embraers from OS could move back to Cityline (they used to be operated by KTV pilots and cityline cabin) plus the 7 OS A319 would make up 24 aircraft to be replaced. Moreover Swiss is keeping their A319s as interim lift to expand the Germany flying (after ABs demise) and thus need some extra CS should they be replaced.


The original article on this order that I read, if I recall correctly, said it was from a non existing customer. Since LH basically bought the planes for Swiss then this would rule them out. Another article I quoted earlier added it was from an EU country although I only saw that from one source. This will drive us all crazy lol.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:43 am

caribb wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
I highly suspect it's LH (Group). If the pilot deal goes through (currently in ballot), they need to expand the KTV flying (overall), while it's partly shrinking, as the 4U part is moved to EW. So they need aircraft. Also the number kind of makes sense. It could be the 30 options and the one ntu by KE.
There are also rumours emerging (on german sites) that the Embraers from OS could move back to Cityline (they used to be operated by KTV pilots and cityline cabin) plus the 7 OS A319 would make up 24 aircraft to be replaced. Moreover Swiss is keeping their A319s as interim lift to expand the Germany flying (after ABs demise) and thus need some extra CS should they be replaced.


The original article on this order that I read, if I recall correctly, said it was from a non existing customer. Since LH basically bought the planes for Swiss then this would rule them out. Another article I quoted earlier added it was from an EU country although I only saw that from one source. This will drive us all crazy lol.


As long as it is not for LX you can argue all other airlines of LH group would be a "new" customer.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:16 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
Problem is EI has nothing in the sub A320 size now...

Now IB only has 16 A319s... not enough to need 61 orders/options. However if you add the 31 CRJ9/CRJ1Ks at Nostrum it doesn't seem that bad of a fit...

BA has 44 A319s by itself... 61 doesn't fit well... but if you add the 14 E190s from Cityflyer... then 58 fits.


Although EI currently has nothing in the sub A320 size, I suspect the A320 may be a little too large for some of its routes. Replacing some of these with the C Series might not only provide a better fit for some routes but might also offer opportunities for increased frequencies and further route development.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:33 pm

They do have sub A320 size aircraft - in fact EI's issue is that it has nothing between the ATR-72 and the A320. That's a 100 seat capacity jump. The few A319s were withdrawn because the costs were practically the same as operating an A320.

I understand there is a deal for CityJet to fly CRJ 900s on behalf of EI's Aer Lingus Regional, which would allow them to operate longer regional routes. But, there's still a big gap which an aircraft like the CS100 could sit in.

I can see a strong rational for IAG placing the C Series at Aer Lingus, Iberia and Vueling.
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YULflyguy
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:08 pm

was thinking maybe LOT? and have to agree the C-Series is a great fit for SK !
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:17 pm

SQ22 wrote:
caribb wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
I highly suspect it's LH (Group). If the pilot deal goes through (currently in ballot), they need to expand the KTV flying (overall), while it's partly shrinking, as the 4U part is moved to EW. So they need aircraft. Also the number kind of makes sense. It could be the 30 options and the one ntu by KE.
There are also rumours emerging (on german sites) that the Embraers from OS could move back to Cityline (they used to be operated by KTV pilots and cityline cabin) plus the 7 OS A319 would make up 24 aircraft to be replaced. Moreover Swiss is keeping their A319s as interim lift to expand the Germany flying (after ABs demise) and thus need some extra CS should they be replaced.


The original article on this order that I read, if I recall correctly, said it was from a non existing customer. Since LH basically bought the planes for Swiss then this would rule them out. Another article I quoted earlier added it was from an EU country although I only saw that from one source. This will drive us all crazy lol.


As long as it is not for LX you can argue all other airlines of LH group would be a "new" customer.


I disagree, BBD sold the C-series to the Lufthansa Group and the Lufthansa Group placed the airplanes at one of their subsidiaries. BBD even states Deutsche Lufthansa AG was the launch customer. Any further order would be essentially a top order for the Group even it is placed at a different subsidiary.
 
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OA940
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CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:28 pm

I was thinking, could it be Volotea? They have two planes perfect for the CS100 and 300 to replace, both have about 15 years average age, and 31 firm orders are perfect for them as they would have just a tiny bit of expansion, with room for more. I think it is very possible.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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tommyarias
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Re: CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:29 pm

They announced yesterday that will open 58 new routes in 2018. With the current fleet I doubt they will be able to expand that much, so maybe they are getting the CSeries?
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JetBuddy
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Re: CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:48 pm

2018 is too soon to deliver so many C-Series. It would be the perfect plane for Volotea though.
 
Armaghman
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Re: CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:27 pm

OA940 wrote:
I was thinking, could it be Volotea? They have two planes perfect for the CS100 and 300 to replace, both have about 15 years average age, and 31 firm orders are perfect for them as they would have just a tiny bit of expansion, with room for more. I think it is very possible.


http://www.volotea.com/en/press-room/ne ... s-in-2017/

A good article on the aircraft plan for this year, all 6 new planes most have arrived as now 28 planes. Can't see any other orders out there.

They would still be an all airbus to in a way as planned out here in 2016
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:31 pm

I'd heard running water was now pretty common... but I never knew youse Armagh lot got the electric in.... never mind the internet!

[or are ye up in "the big smoke"? :D]
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Are Volotea's A319s brand new and purchased frames? [They obviously have to be ceos at this point.]

If they were frames on their 2nd lease, then definitely, CS1/300 would appear a perfect fit to replace a 717/319 mix. Better for Airbus and better for Volotea.


edit: Ah ha, good ol google:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 9s-422975/


I think we may have our newest CSeries operator.
Last edited by Amiga500 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:38 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
2018 is too soon to deliver so many C-Series. It would be the perfect plane for Volotea though.


Would Airbus be wanting to dedicate that many production slots to (relatively) low profit A319ceos?

Would Volotea be able to take on more than 10 airframes a year anyway?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: CSeries order possible operator?

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:59 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
2018 is too soon to deliver so many C-Series. It would be the perfect plane for Volotea though.


Would Airbus be wanting to dedicate that many production slots to (relatively) low profit A319ceos?

Would Volotea be able to take on more than 10 airframes a year anyway?


I don't know. But my guess is they'd like to sell as many A320-series as possible, even the A319neo. But they've stated that they'll be pushing the C-Series ahead of their own A319neo.. so who knows. The C-Series would be a great aircraft for Volotea, but I don't think they have the capacity to deliver them this soon.

I think Volotea could take on 10 airframes a year, if they're swapping 717 one for one.
 
Armaghman
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:21 pm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.aviati ... -717s/amp/


4 more a329 sorted out for next year so order still makes sense in my view as no long term commitment to a319
 
nordify
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Re: Bombardier announces LoI for 31 (+30 Options) CSeries from an unnamed European Customer

Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:47 pm

Tune in tuesday morning, possible announcement from SAS

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