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mikegigs
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BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:25 pm

CFO Steve Grunning said in an investor event today that the last 744 in BA's fleet will exit in February of 2024.

The fleet currently consists of 36 aircraft - half of which are set to be retired by 2021.

"Gunning's data indicates that BA expects to maintain a fleet of 63 777s over the period to 2022, while a gradually-expanding fleet of A380s, A350s and 787s will reach 71 aircraft in the same year." per FlightGlobal - an interesting comment on the expansion of the A380 fleet as BA currently has none on order. A mistake of words or a hint of what's to come?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 24-442859/

Sad to see the life of the 747 drawing to a close, but happy we will still see them with BA for the next 7 years - much longer than I thought they'd stick around for.
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Gaspard
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:31 pm

Interesting to see the 744 age finishing soon (and also a bit sad though).

Let's hope BA does expand it's A380 fleet (not impossible, seing how LHR is in overcapacity, but still I would doubt it).
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:34 pm

is the replacement set yet?
 
TC957
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:03 pm

I do believe BA getting more A380s is a matter of when not if. What'll be interesting is if they get new ones at a steal from Airbus or the much-rumoured second hand ones like EK's offcasts.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:07 pm

Quite inevitable I think. The 744s have been basically 'done' for some time now...BA are actually doing a grand job with the life extension programme. Too bad BA didn't order the 748 like LH. They would have been great in BA colours!

Those fleet numbers quoted there are a bit of a let down to me...? it seems to me BA are not really growing as much as they 'should'... not to mention capacity, which seems quite capped with the large number of 787s coming onboard...
Good to see a mention of the A380, but me thinks we are talking wee numbers here. I'd also like to see some growth of the 773 sub-fleet...some of those 772s are really long in the tooth.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:12 pm

Interesting numbers. By 2022 BA will have 63 777s, 5 more than now. Maybe they will take some 77W coming off lease from other airlines? And a fleet of 71 A380/A350/787. Currently 12 A380 and 25 787, with 17 787 and 18 A350 to be delivered. I guess 1 787 or A350 to be delivered after 2022? Or will we see some surprises here?
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shankly
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:16 pm

Keeping my fingers crossed that its LHR-CPT that will see the last BA747-436 flight; its the quintessential 744 run.
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Polot
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:23 pm

shankly wrote:
Keeping my fingers crossed that its LHR-CPT that will see the last BA747-436 flight; its the quintessential 744 run.

It will probably be LHR-JFK.
 
fcogafa
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:28 pm

To work out how many A380s, if you know how many A350s and B787s are deliveries of others due and the total will be 71

Currently 12 x A380s and 25 x B787 = 37
another 18 x B787s by 2021 = 55 ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 8s-434592/)
18 x A350 (if they are all due by 2022 )

which = 73 Too many!
 
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Richard28
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:35 pm

fcogafa wrote:
To work out how many A380s, if you know how many A350s and B787s are deliveries of others due and the total will be 71

Currently 12 x A380s and 25 x B787 = 37
another 18 x B787s by 2021 = 55 ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 8s-434592/)
18 x A350 (if they are all due by 2022 )

which = 73 Too many!


My guess would be that some of the A350-1000's are to be pushed back a little to tie in with the B744 retirements which go through to 2024.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:39 pm

TC957 wrote:
I do believe BA getting more A380s is a matter of when not if. What'll be interesting is if they get new ones at a steal from Airbus or the much-rumoured second hand ones like EK's offcasts.


The Ex-SQ birds perhaps?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
MileHFL400
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:40 pm

shankly wrote:
Keeping my fingers crossed that its LHR-CPT that will see the last BA747-436 flight; its the quintessential 744 run.


I hope we keep seeing this bird at NBO till 2024
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
33lspotter
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:45 pm

The BA 744 was my first aviation "love," and I'm very fortunate to have flown on it three times and lived in a place where I could see it from my bedroom. It won't be fun to see it go, but pretty incredible to think that -- at a point where many airlines have retired their 744s altogether -- BA will keep its operation going for another six years.
 
gunnerman
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:46 pm

BA uses the A380 to provide flexibility and cost cutting. For example, LHR-HKG was three times a day using 744s, now it's just an A380 and a 777-300ER. Another example is LHR-LAX which was also three times a day using 744s, now it has an A380, a 744 and a 789. But there is a limit on the number of routes that BA can sensibly deploy the A380. And as BA won't use the A380 on a big business route like LHR-JFK, I see limited scope to expand the A380 fleet.
 
fcogafa
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:50 pm

If you look at page 17 of the presentation the chart shows some (4/5?) B777-300 as 'on order'

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.Fi ... 8710557042

Page 27 says 18 x A350 and 14 x B787 over next 5 years = 32 +12 A380 + 25 B787 = 69 so now 2 to be accounted for....

Page 117 shows the 2020 plan as 58 x B777 (as current) and 12 x A380 (as current) and no outstanding orders past 2020 so who knows what is going on!
Last edited by fcogafa on Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
pabloeing
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:06 pm

fcogafa wrote:
If you look at page 17 of the presentation the chart shows some (4/5?) B777-300 as 'on order'

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.Fi ... 8710557042

Page 27 says 18 x A350 and 14 x B787 over next 5 years = 32 +12 A380 + 25 B787 = 69 so now 2 to be accounted for....

¿New order soon?....¿B777x in the race for B747 replacement?
 
theginge
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:20 pm

Page 120 suggests 3x 777-200 will be replaced by 3x777-300

That same presentation on Page 25 says there are 63 777 in 2017 yet they only have 58!
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:35 pm

I’ll second JFK-LHR as last 744 flight.

It it most fitting.
 
jde91
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:41 pm

gunnerman wrote:
BA uses the A380 to provide flexibility and cost cutting. For example, LHR-HKG was three times a day using 744s, now it's just an A380 and a 777-300ER. Another example is LHR-LAX which was also three times a day using 744s, now it has an A380, a 744 and a 789. But there is a limit on the number of routes that BA can sensibly deploy the A380. And as BA won't use the A380 on a big business route like LHR-JFK, I see limited scope to expand the A380 fleet.


Why won't BA use them on JFK or big business routes?
 
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Polot
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:03 pm

jde91 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
BA uses the A380 to provide flexibility and cost cutting. For example, LHR-HKG was three times a day using 744s, now it's just an A380 and a 777-300ER. Another example is LHR-LAX which was also three times a day using 744s, now it has an A380, a 744 and a 789. But there is a limit on the number of routes that BA can sensibly deploy the A380. And as BA won't use the A380 on a big business route like LHR-JFK, I see limited scope to expand the A380 fleet.


Why won't BA use them on JFK or big business routes?

1) Terminal 7 at JFK can't handle A380s.
2) The big business routes like JFK need frequencies to stay competitive. The routes are already operating with premium heavy layout aircraft, so consolidating 2 flights into 1 makes BA less competitive when it comes to schedule and slashes available premium seats that BA has no major issues filling. Upgauging a current flight to a A380 from a hi J 747 mostly is just significantly increasing the number of Y and Y+ seats. Due to all the frequencies and competition more Y capacity is not really needed on these routes.
 
scotron11
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:08 pm

WW says one thing,,,then does another. He did say IAG were open to either taking leased or used WBs, then they went brand new in ordering 2x A330s for Level. Used A380s at BA,...nah! More likely they will exercise their options for 7 they already hold. Interesting tho, they did go lease on the initial order for the A321LR for EI,
 
Antarius
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:51 pm

gunnerman wrote:
BA uses the A380 to provide flexibility and cost cutting. For example, LHR-HKG was three times a day using 744s, now it's just an A380 and a 777-300ER. Another example is LHR-LAX which was also three times a day using 744s, now it has an A380, a 744 and a 789. But there is a limit on the number of routes that BA can sensibly deploy the A380. And as BA won't use the A380 on a big business route like LHR-JFK, I see limited scope to expand the A380 fleet.


Agreed. Also a BA 77W is much closer to their 744 configuration seat wise than their A380s. So IMO, a likely "like for like" change would be more 77W or 777X someday.
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gunnerman
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:54 pm

It's instructive to compare the seating of BA's 744s with 77Ws.

747-400 (LHR-LAX)
First 14
Club World 86
World Traveller Plus 30
World Traveller 145
Total: 275 seats

777-300ER (LHR-SIN)
First 14
Club World 56
World Traveller Plus 44
World Traveller 183
Total: 297 seats

As you can see, the number of seats is similar but the 744 has far bigger - and more profitable - Club World cabin. However, the 77W is much cheaper to operate than the 744, being smaller and having only two engines, so it has effectively replaced the 744.
 
flymia
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:59 pm

The BA 744 is by far one of my favorite aircraft. 2024 for a 744 is pretty good really, thats another 6-years of the 744 and hopefully MIA will continue to get the 744 for some time. In six-years I would not be surprised if BA is the only major airline the 747-400 still in its fleet and that 90%+ of the 747-400 flying would be in cargo airlines.

Great aircraft.
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MRYapproach
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:21 pm

Polot wrote:
jde91 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
BA uses the A380 to provide flexibility and cost cutting. For example, LHR-HKG was three times a day using 744s, now it's just an A380 and a 777-300ER. Another example is LHR-LAX which was also three times a day using 744s, now it has an A380, a 744 and a 789. But there is a limit on the number of routes that BA can sensibly deploy the A380. And as BA won't use the A380 on a big business route like LHR-JFK, I see limited scope to expand the A380 fleet.


Why won't BA use them on JFK or big business routes?

1) Terminal 7 at JFK can't handle A380s.
2) The big business routes like JFK need frequencies to stay competitive. The routes are already operating with premium heavy layout aircraft, so consolidating 2 flights into 1 makes BA less competitive when it comes to schedule and slashes available premium seats that BA has no major issues filling. Upgauging a current flight to a A380 from a hi J 747 mostly is just significantly increasing the number of Y and Y+ seats. Due to all the frequencies and competition more Y capacity is not really needed on these routes.


Thanks jde91 for asking the question, and thanks Polot for the answer. I had the same question, and guessed the answer would the same.

I was lucky enough to get 6-8 roundtrips in 747s as a kid going to Europe to see family. Mostly TWA / Pan Am / LH from JFK to LHR and FRA. It was the pre-9/11 days and as an eager kid I talked more than one FA into letting me visit the cockpit over the Atlantic. My last 747 trip was in 2012 to Taiwan on CI. Since then, I've crisscrossed the globe about 20 times in 77Ws, plus some A330 trips. The 77W is a fantastic plane, but it never draws my eye like the silhouette of a 747.

I've never been on a A380 or A340. I'll scratch the A340 itch on a return flight MCO-SFO next month. Can't wait to try out the downstairs lav!
 
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:22 pm

I flew on G-CIVR in August, JFK-LHR, with only about 25% load factor due to an earlier delay (many customers opted for earlier BA flights once the delay was evident.) I have to say that this was one of my favorite B744 flights ever. BA's new cabins are really quite good in all classes, you really have to look hard to remember it is a 20-25 year old aircraft. Not only was this on par with the much newer VS plane I had coming home, I would say the hard product advantage went to BA.
I will certainly miss the Queen of the Skies when they are gone, especially in BA livery.
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DaveFly
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:33 pm

MRYapproach wrote:
Polot wrote:
jde91 wrote:

Can't wait to try out the downstairs lav!


Be sure to stand up before you press the flush button. I nearly lost some important equipment from the powerful suction. Yikes!
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maortega15
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:42 pm

The 779 and potential 7710 seem to be a good fit for a 744 replacement.
 
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Revelation
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:47 pm

mikegigs wrote:
CFO Steve Grunning said in an investor event today that the last 744 in BA's fleet will exit in February of 2024.

Looks like we'll be having a giant a.net piss-up in February of 2024! :biggrin:
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jetwet1
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pm

gunnerman wrote:
It's instructive to compare the seating of BA's 744s with 77Ws.

747-400 (LHR-LAX)
First 14
Club World 86
World Traveller Plus 30
World Traveller 145
Total: 275 seats

777-300ER (LHR-SIN)
First 14
Club World 56
World Traveller Plus 44
World Traveller 183
Total: 297 seats

As you can see, the number of seats is similar but the 744 has far bigger - and more profitable - Club World cabin. However, the 77W is much cheaper to operate than the 744, being smaller and having only two engines, so it has effectively replaced the 744.


That's the super hi J version of the 744, there is also the 70 and 52 seat version.
 
Andy33
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:29 pm

jetwet1 wrote:

That's the super hi J version of the 744, there is also the 70 and 52 seat version.

There's no longer any 70 seat versions, they've all been reconfigured into 52 seat or 86 seat versions.
 
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TedToToe
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:32 pm

maortega15 wrote:
The 779 and potential 7710 seem to be a good fit for a 744 replacement.

In every BA 744 replacement thread, the 779 gets a mention. What this Capital Markets Day presentation tells us is, all of BA's 744s will be replaced by a combination of 77W, 787, A35K and A380. What intrigues me is, which of these will directly replace the Super Hi-J 744s? Personally, I don't see them abusing the A35K on the JFK route, for example. So, possibly, we will see a Hi-J version of the 787-10, but I also wouldn't rule out the 77W. So, as A350s are delivered, 77Ws (due a refit by then) could be reconfigured to a Hi-J layout, for example. Additionally, the fact that BA are set to add to their fleet, could see 18 in total and perfect for a one for one replacement for the 86J 744s!
 
BigTexFlyer
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:47 pm

LHR/JFK in some form has to be the last flight (on a high J jet).
 
Arion640
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:37 pm

Now believe me or not, a friend at BA has informed me the company has been looking at ex EK 77W's.

I didn't think anything of this until they said they would take 5 more.
 
rta
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:09 pm

I'm not sure how long I expected the 744s to stay in the fleet, but 2024 is pretty decent. Would have loved for most of the fleet to last past 2021, but I suppose you can't replace aircraft overnight.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:25 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Now believe me or not, a friend at BA has informed me the company has been looking at ex EK 77W's.

I didn't think anything of this until they said they would take 5 more.


There are no "ex EK 77W's" available, except maybe 1 from VIN and generally when you show a bar chart with "in service/on order" you're not talking about used airframes. There are several unidentified 77W orders including one for "5" from 2015.
 
Arion640
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:04 am

7BOEING7 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Now believe me or not, a friend at BA has informed me the company has been looking at ex EK 77W's.

I didn't think anything of this until they said they would take 5 more.


There are no "ex EK 77W's" available, except maybe 1 from VIN and generally when you show a bar chart with "in service/on order" you're not talking about used airframes. There are several unidentified 77W orders including one for "5" from 2015.


Don't shoot the messenger. Putting things in speech marks like i'm stupid.

Simply just repeating something I've heard.

Eventually 777x replacements will arrive so therefore you'll see 77w's out of service.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:59 am

jetwet1 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
It's instructive to compare the seating of BA's 744s with 77Ws.

747-400 (LHR-LAX)
First 14
Club World 86
World Traveller Plus 30
World Traveller 145
Total: 275 seats

777-300ER (LHR-SIN)
First 14
Club World 56
World Traveller Plus 44
World Traveller 183
Total: 297 seats

As you can see, the number of seats is similar but the 744 has far bigger - and more profitable - Club World cabin. However, the 77W is much cheaper to operate than the 744, being smaller and having only two engines, so it has effectively replaced the 744.


That's the super hi J version of the 744, there is also the 70 and 52 seat version.

I expect prior to 744 retirement BA will have a high premium J version plane. This far out, it could be a 779...

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lightsaber
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:02 am

Arion640 wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Now believe me or not, a friend at BA has informed me the company has been looking at ex EK 77W's.

I didn't think anything of this until they said they would take 5 more.


There are no "ex EK 77W's" available, except maybe 1 from VIN and generally when you show a bar chart with "in service/on order" you're not talking about used airframes. There are several unidentified 77W orders including one for "5" from 2015.


Don't shoot the messenger. Putting things in speech marks like i'm stupid.

Simply just repeating something I've heard.

Eventually 777x replacements will arrive so therefore you'll see 77w's out of service.

With the huge surplus of widebodies, someone will buy the used EK 77Ws. It could be Ba for a batch. Or BA could buy 779s... Or more A380s... Or A350-1000.

The order need not be placed for two years. Advantage BA. Or it might be announced soon. I don't know.

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RL777
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:12 am

The 744 replacements are already either in the fleet or on order. The 77W, A35J and A388 will share the role for the longer range routes to NA and Asia whilst I believe the 787-10 is the perfect replacement for TATL routes especially JFK & BOS. It would not surprise me to see BA add some more 787-10s to the order book as we near 2024.
 
fokkerf28
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:18 am

Last 744 flight LHR-PHX.....
 
gunnerman
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:37 am

Andy33 wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:

That's the super hi J version of the 744, there is also the 70 and 52 seat version.

There's no longer any 70 seat versions, they've all been reconfigured into 52 seat or 86 seat versions.

Yes, the 52-seat Club World cabins were introduced in 2005 with the World Traveller Plus cabin sandwiched between the First and Club World cabins. Here is the seating of those aircraft with the others repeated for ease of reading.

747-400 (LHR-CPT)
First 14
Club World 52
World Traveller Plus 36
World Traveller 235
Total: 337 seats

747-400 (LHR-LAX)
First 14
Club World 86
World Traveller Plus 30
World Traveller 145
Total: 275 seats

777-300ER (LHR-SIN)
First 14
Club World 56
World Traveller Plus 44
World Traveller 183
Total: 297 seats
 
texdravid
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:36 am

Dear BA,
For DFW, taketh away the 744, give us the 380. We are a Oneworld station after all. By the way, I have an uneasy feeling that DFW is going backwards with the 380. Had two but with QF getting 789, it could be zero.

For SAN, no 772 please. Only a 77W or 77W plus 789 totaling 10 Times a week in peak season and 777W alone daily in off season.

Thanks.
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LAX772LR
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:03 am

texdravid wrote:
Dear BA,
For DFW, taketh away the 744, give us the 380. We are a Oneworld station after all. By the way, I have an uneasy feeling that DFW is going backwards with the 380. Had two but with QF getting 789, it could be zero.

For SAN, no 772 please. Only a 77W or 77W plus 789 totaling 10 Times a week in peak season and 777W alone daily in off season.

Thanks.

Dear person who wishes we ran our operation in such an arbitrary fashion,

No.

~signed,
BA
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DaufuskieGuy
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:22 am

RL777 wrote:
The 744 replacements are already either in the fleet or on order. The 77W, A35J and A388 will share the role for the longer range routes to NA and Asia whilst I believe the 787-10 is the perfect replacement for TATL routes especially JFK & BOS. It would not surprise me to see BA add some more 787-10s to the order book as we near 2024.


787-10 for 744 routes like bos and jfk (and several others in NA) is a significant capacity drop, are they going to more frequency or are they going to shrink their market share in NA? the 779 really seems like a better fit unless they don't like their current strategy.
 
TC957
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:42 am

I agree with an above post that the next refitting of the BA 77W's will include a high-J cabin for JFK use.
Incidentally, what's up with the BA terminal at JFK that means it can't be modified to handle the A380 ?
 
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TedToToe
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:05 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
787-10 for 744 routes like bos and jfk (and several others in NA) is a significant capacity drop...

It is, yes, but as regards JFK and the A380, never say never. They could easily maintain frequency and overall capacity by operating the A380 alongside something smaller than the 744.
 
pabloeing
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:25 am

BA NEEDS MORE ORDERS OR OPTIONS CONVERSIONS TO COMPLET THE B744 REPLACEMENT......18 A350 OPTIONS....AND 12 B787 OPTIONS IS THE KEY
 
Geoff1947
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:37 am

BA has planned to replace the 747s with a mix of 787 and A350. Nothing has changed. The will be ordering more of both.

Geoff
 
pabloeing
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Re: BA 747 Retirement Date Set

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:46 am

In this moment.....¿Which is the number of widebodies in the BA fleet?

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