As DEN will be gaining more than 25% new gate capacity during the next 3+ years, what do people believe are going to be some of the new routes to be introduced to the Mile High City? With the 39 gates spread pretty evenly among Concourses A, B & C, there should be quite a bit of growth from the big three (United, Southwest and Frontier). What about new carriers?

With Midway tapped out, you can see Denver become Southwest's "Chicago west" in an even larger capacity, probably growing into the #1 station.

I'll believe 3 years when I see it. I don't see service growing more than 3-5% per year till the next recession when we'll see a 15-20% retrench.

Another comment. The problem with growing Denver as a hub dramatically is that there are far more new city opportunities to the East. I'd argue that DEN has pretty much everything to the West it can suppprt already. There are maybe 3-4 more in the PacNW, but that's it. Far more options East, but as a hub you need balance. That's the problem.

The expansion at the airport will serve more in the interests of the future for the Denver/greater Denver area regarding population growth, than being built for the purpose of becoming the Dubai of the U.S.

Roughly the city is growing by 1,000+ people per month. It's slowed down a bit in the recent months, but it's still a pretty strong, significant number. There will be a healthy number of people in the U.S. who will want to fly to Vegas and still can't get there nonstop (hello, Denver!) and the people in Denver will want to fly to Fresno (oh, look at how I worked that one in there, Southwest lovers) to visit grandma.

MHT hopefully. Preferably on WN but UA would be fine as well.

UA is going daily, year-round on its Hawaii flights that were seasonal. UA is also starting LHR seasonally next year. SkyWest is adding about 20 flights a day with the EAS routes they picked up. People assume WN growth is just limited to new cities, but growth can be frequency increases too. WN could grow Mexico from DEN if they choose. Norwegian starts Paris next year, and is considering Oslo. Copa, WestJet and Edelweiss all start DEN flights next year. Emirates announcement to DXB is a matter of when, not if. DEN also needs to land a China flight.

All of that being said, AA and F9 are shrinking at DEN.

WN has mentioned often Canada as a future interest. Would DEN be a realistic place to add Canadian service eventually? Probably not anytime soon though just a thought.

I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.

I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN

I agree with those that think the East needs more flights from DEN. Once you add those flights from the East though, you can probably afford to add some more flights West as well for the higher number of pax. However, I think at least 5-6 of these gates should be used as breathing room for IRROPS.

AS will seize this opportunity, no doubt. Maybe JetBlue could experiment a bit as well.

Westjet will add additional cities if Calgary operates well.

With Denver becoming the next silicon valley and a huge tech market...China, Korea, India, etc. will see direct service to Denver.

I see 2 of the 3 M3’s here in the next 5 years.

Give us some direct access to Central America and the Caribbean and Denver is looking real strong!

I could see some mid-size markets in the east coast like:

ORF, MHT, ISP, ROC, MDT, etc.

They will have so much space they will just start running DEN-DEN routes.

alasizon wrote:

I agree with those that think the East needs more flights from DEN. Once you add those flights from the East though, you can probably afford to add some more flights West as well for the higher number of pax. However, I think at least 5-6 of these gates should be used as breathing room for IRROPS.

If it's beyond the range of an E175, it needs to fill an A319 or larger (against competition from East/Midwest connecting hubs). With the retirement of CR2s and E145s over the next decade it's possible DEN's non-stop destination count could actually decline.

Norwegian is starting Paris from next year

West Jet and Frontier are starting flights to Calgary even though United is flying there.

rph99 wrote:

Maybe JetBlue could experiment a bit as well.

I keep hearing JetBlue will stick to transcons and focus on the east and europe.

Makes me really wonder that they think a tie up with AS is inevitable.

Any proposals for Caribbean routes? As others have mentioned, DEN is weak in that department.

Hubris in action

trexel94 wrote:

I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.

NZ has mentioned DEN as an option in the past, although would expect to to be seasonal.

Maybe AA switch ops from PHX...jk..ha
I saw someone write that on a different thread

Expect Southwest Airlines to grow in Denver. I wonder if Delta Air Lines sees an "Opportunity".

Nothing new.
Boring hub to hub flights with a couple spokes.

trexel94 wrote:

I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.

So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...

dc10lover wrote:

Expect Southwest Airlines to grow in Denver. I wonder if Delta Air Lines sees an "Opportunity".

I’ve always wondered if a legacy would go head to head with United in Denver. I would love to see Delta or American increase their presence in the market.

Zidane wrote:

Any proposals for Caribbean routes? As others have mentioned, DEN is weak in that department.

I could see Frontier and/or Southwest adding SJU.

Montego Bay and Punta Cana are also likely contenders.

What Denver really needs is a bit more access to Latin/South America (Costa Rica, Panama, Columbia, Belize, Honduras)

rph99 wrote:

.

What Denver really needs is a bit more access to Latin/South America (Costa Rica, Panama, Columbia, Belize, Honduras)

It already has BZE (and that is doing quite well), and PTY is coming (back) soon.

Judge1310 wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.

So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...

Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.

I wonder if TCX would consider a MAN-DEN seasonal ski route? Probably I more than 2/3x a week service.

jubguy3 wrote:

Hubris in action

Are you reacting to some of the new destinations proposed in this thread, or the size of the gate expansion?

Issue with DEN-Caribbean is the a/c, probably perfect for a MOM, however some of the larger markets may support a once of twice weekly 767 or 787, as the 787 is still an in-demand a/c don't expect that anytime soon.

stlgph wrote:

With Midway tapped out, you can see Denver become Southwest's "Chicago west" in an even larger capacity, probably growing into the #1 station.

DEN has been predicted even by WN own leadership to eventually become WN biggest city in terms of departures.
Now with all of WN future growth plans all with 800NG,MAX8 and MAX7. Add the average turn times because of connections 35/45 mins (7377) and 45/55 mins 7378/MAX8 WN will need easily another 10 to 15 more gates just for normal operations.

WN still has 10 or so east of the Mississippi cities it could add daily DEN service.
But With Hawaii on tap I wouldn’t expect those markets to be added until after 2019.

Flyguy

WNflyer1523 wrote:

I could see some mid-size markets in the east coast like:

ORF, MHT, ISP, ROC, MDT, etc.

WN already had N/S from PVD and MHT and they did very well and not because they were cheap. Along comes WN @ BOS and the flights go away and reappear at BOS. Then however because of hammering competition there the fares drop and DEN is almost always on the bargain "Click n' Save" fare page. What was gained? I'm sure there are similar examples around the WN system to DEN and elsewhere. Now Frontier does PVD and in time to come maybe MHT.

So just because Boston to Denver shows up on "click 'n save?" that means it's not doing well?

Those 39 new gates is why Amazon could end up locating its second headquarters in the Denver, CO area.

stlgph wrote:

So just because Boston to Denver shows up on "click 'n save?" that means it's not doing well?

There became a strong downward pressure on fares on the BOS-DEN route as WN has to slug it out with JetBlue and United. If WN presumed they would walk right and clean up,it wasn't that easy. At MHT and PVD, customers were accustomed to and willing to pay a reasonable premium for the DEN flight and it almost never had to be on Click N' Save. This phenomenon has likely appeared on other routes around the system as flights get plucked from the secondary cities and dropped into a fare war.

727LOVER wrote:

I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN

Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.

Southwest leadership has said that the plan is to grow denver to 250 flights, maybe as much as 300, and have it be their largest station. United has called for a 50% capacity increase at DEN, and was actually present at the city council meeting where they voted on this proposal to endorse it. In addition, UA is lobbying for significantly increased baggge and security screening capacity in the main terminal (which is already growing under the Great Hall renovation). Given that UA isn’t growing their number of gates all that much (and have lower turns then WN at their gates), it seems like a lot of their growth will be oriented around upgaging.

Norwegian is apparently very happy with the loads coming out of DEN, and international growth is accelerating, which is why most of the new A gates (not the temporary ones) look to be split to support customs and immigration.

I could definitely see DL increasing service, especially since they recently opened a SkyClub and started DEN-LAX. Probably not a focus city, but select point to point routes and maybe KL/AF starting a flight.

DL wants desperately to expand at ORD from what I've heard, but a lack of gates prevents that. They definitely see an opening to go after UA hubs.

rajincajun01 wrote:

727LOVER wrote:

I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN

Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.

Alaska on LAX-DEN? Ooof... That may be the most highly-competitive route in the country, already served by six carriers. Yesterday's schedule showed (ranked by frequency, not seats):

Southwest x7
United x7
DL x5
AA x3
Frontier x2
Spirit x1

MIflyer12 wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

727LOVER wrote:

I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN

Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.

Alaska on LAX-DEN? Ooof... That may be the most highly-competitive route in the country, already served by six carriers. Yesterday's schedule showed (ranked by frequency, not seats):

Southwest x7
United x7
DL x5
AA x3
Frontier x2
Spirit x1

Spirit is actually double daily on DEN-LAX.

MIflyer12 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

Hubris in action

Are you reacting to some of the new destinations proposed in this thread, or the size of the gate expansion?

No, I'm reacting to some of the proposed destinations. I think that denver could possibly handle 39 gates, but with 3 carriers competing intensely I'm worried that as margins fall someone is going to pull out and leave denver with a giant airport and less capacity to fly out of it. Denver is a high yielding market but United has had to do some stretching to get around frontier and southwest eating them up, and frontier + southwest are relatively similar in their business models. I'm just wondering if something is ever going to give because its still surprising that DEN sees as much traffic as it does for an area of 3.5 million people (which is great, don't get me wrong).

The one thing that i'm iffy on is routes to china. Literally almost all of those airports are heavily restricted and I don't think that if united is flying anywhere other than shanghai or beijing that they can make it work. And also something that I don't see people considering is that as TATL and TPAC routes are added, they eat up some of the capacity that was previously being routed through hubs. And you can drive demand by creating these flights, but you can't create them. Each on their own is a possibility but the entire lists of flights that people are proposing would create such an excess of capacity that it would become prohibitively unprofitable to operate any of them. So even if all of them can come to fruition its going to take years to mature each market. That's why i said hubris in action... I think people aren't stopping to realize that despite denver's strengths (amazingly high O/D, geography, competition) that some of those benefits can also present themselves as negatives... i.e., denver's competition is driving down margins for everyone. That's why i just giggle when someone says that AA should move their PHX hub to denver, like, okay. Great? This is just a direct comparison between my home city (SLC) and denver (i also used to live in denver) but you can see the stark difference in growth patterns between DEN and SLC due to the varying levels of competition. Delta controls 76% percent of SLC so growth is slow but steady... whereas not a single carrier has more than 35 percent at DIA if i remember correctly. So that's why you see so much sporadic growth at DEN... frontier added all those flights, cut them, added them, etc.

I think this year may have just been a year that a ton of people jumped on DIA at once. But its still been fascinating to see the growth happening at DEN.

My only gripe is, if you're going to go to the effort of executing the linear terminal concept then why aren't you going to execute it fully?

lat41 wrote:

stlgph wrote:

So just because Boston to Denver shows up on "click 'n save?" that means it's not doing well?

There became a strong downward pressure on fares on the BOS-DEN route as WN has to slug it out with JetBlue and United. If WN presumed they would walk right and clean up,it wasn't that easy. At MHT and PVD, customers were accustomed to and willing to pay a reasonable premium for the DEN flight and it almost never had to be on Click N' Save. This phenomenon has likely appeared on other routes around the system as flights get plucked from the secondary cities and dropped into a fare war.

So?

Southwest Click 'n Saves have nothing to do with the overall performance of the station.

MIflyer12 wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

727LOVER wrote:

I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN

Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.

Alaska on LAX-DEN? Ooof... That may be the most highly-competitive route in the country, already served by six carriers. Yesterday's schedule showed (ranked by frequency, not seats):

Southwest x7
United x7
DL x5
AA x3
Frontier x2
Spirit x1

I said VX was considering it pre-merger. Alaska will not jump on the route anytime soon (probably never). Plenty of high yield opportunities elsewhere.

trexel94 wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.

So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...

Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.

Actually, this is splitting hairs. BZE and CUN have coastlines on the Caribbean, so they should be classified as such.

Is DEN considered gate restricted now? I though each of the big 3 had some slack in their gate utilization at the moment. Granted, more gates would allow more growth, but I was under the impression that lack of DEN gates were not given as a reason for not adding another nonstop city somewhere now.

jplatts wrote:

I could see Southwest adding nonstop service from DEN to at least CVG, DSM, ELP, MEM, and ICT.

Is there enough demand for Southwest to serve LIT and BHM nonstop from DEN, or are these markets too small for Southwest to serve nonstop from DEN?

F9 is supposed to be coming back to LIT with service to DEN next March. So by then LIT will have both UA and F9 on the route.

LotsaRunway wrote:

Is DEN considered gate restricted now? I though each of the big 3 had some slack in their gate utilization at the moment. Granted, more gates would allow more growth, but I was under the impression that lack of DEN gates were not given as a reason for not adding another nonstop city somewhere now.

Denver International is currently gate limited,.even though there are several common use gates on concourses A & C that can be used in a pinch. As other posters have mentioned, United has indicated they intend to expand their daily number of flights. Southwest has stated their desire for more gates to bolster their offerings. Even F9 has inferred they may want to add back a gate or two for future needs (they gave up 6 gates on A last year in their downsizing).

International growth has been lively in 2017 for DEN. There is a need for more "customs" use gates without question. I suspect we will hear of more DEN-XXX international routes in the next couple of years.

There are six "modular type" gates currently under construction at the east end of A. Whether these fit into the permanent plans for future buildouts has not been confirmed or made known yet. They will certainly give some short lived breathing room on this concourse.

Do not be surprised to see HA announce service from Hawaii, now that the A321s are arriving there.

Will AK make a move to get more gates and set up something small in DEN? I wouldn't be surprised. Their code share partner AA currently has five gates on the A concourse and flies to some of the likely cities AK may wish to target. I suspect an expanded Alaska presence in Denver would go over well.

More gates ( a whopping 39), means more flights, more pax and worse of all more traffic trying to get to and from the outlier Denver International.

Frontier 14