airfrnt
Posts: 2149
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:22 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
Is DEN considered gate restricted now? I though each of the big 3 had some slack in their gate utilization at the moment. Granted, more gates would allow more growth, but I was under the impression that lack of DEN gates were not given as a reason for not adding another nonstop city somewhere now.


Denver it at roughly 6.1 flights per day per gate. Thats right around average for a hub according to a 2012 study on gate utilization in the us. Southwest averages more, UA less. Since these carriers are more or less banked, the only way to address he need for more flights is to add more gates. While southwest has more of a rolling bank, because of their tight timelines and higher gate utilization, delays cascade through their system, a effect that would be significantly buffered with more capacity. Even with the recent expansion they are at 8.25 a day. United is at 5.2 a day, which is a bit lower then their overall average. This is why most of the new gates are concourse A and C rather then B.
 
airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:26 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
Is DEN considered gate restricted now? I though each of the big 3 had some slack in their gate utilization at the moment. Granted, more gates would allow more growth, but I was under the impression that lack of DEN gates were not given as a reason for not adding another nonstop city somewhere now.


Denver International is currently gate limited,.even though there are several common use gates on concourses A & C that can be used in a pinch. As other posters have mentioned, United has indicated they intend to expand their daily number of flights. Southwest has stated their desire for more gates to bolster their offerings. Even F9 has inferred they may want to add back a gate or two for future needs (they gave up 6 gates on A last year in their downsizing).

International growth has been lively in 2017 for DEN. There is a need for more "customs" use gates without question. I suspect we will hear of more DEN-XXX international routes in the next couple of years.

There are six "modular type" gates currently under construction at the east end of A. Whether these fit into the permanent plans for future buildouts has not been confirmed or made known yet. They will certainly give some short lived breathing room on this concourse.

Do not be surprised to see HA announce service from Hawaii, now that the A321s are arriving there.

Will AK make a move to get more gates and set up something small in DEN? I wouldn't be surprised. Their code share partner AA currently has five gates on the A concourse and flies to some of the likely cities AK may wish to target. I suspect an expanded Alaska presence in Denver would go over well.

More gates ( a whopping 39), means more flights, more pax and worse of all more traffic trying to get to and from the outlier Denver International. :hissyfit:

Frontier 14


Per the city council meeting earlier this week, these gates are there to temporarily buffer capacity until the new gates come online. My guess is that the gates will survive a bit longer then that since the airport won’t have to remove those until they target the 15 or so remaining gates that they could add to A and C.
 
EddieDude
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:33 pm

Thanks for the info on DEN-CDG rajincajun01; I always thought this city pair needed service.

Is MEX-DEN year-round or is it only seasonal service?
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
rajincajun01
Posts: 701
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:09 am

EddieDude wrote:
Thanks for the info on DEN-CDG rajincajun01; I always thought this city pair needed service.

Is MEX-DEN year-round or is it only seasonal service?


AeroMexico service is seasonal. United is year-round.
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Rdh3e
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:58 am

I'm suspicious of this new "39" number. Won't some of these gates replace the UA "finger" gates, either north or south, and thus likely reduce the number of available gates at the airport?
 
jubguy3
Posts: 514
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:50 am

airfrnt wrote:
Southwest leadership has said that the plan is to grow denver to 250 flights, maybe as much as 300, and have it be their largest station. United has called for a 50% capacity increase at DEN.


Combined with the growth of F9 at Denver, I don't really know if I can see that as anywhere near being sustainable.

From the DIA website:
"This ranks DEN as the third-fastest growing airport in the world, behind only Kuala Lumpur and Delhi

DEN as the sixth busiest airport in the U.S. and 18th busiest in the world (2016)

Approximately 65 percent of travelers at DEN are origination and destination (O&D) passengers, and 35 percent are connecting

Approximately 35 million annual domestic passengers are O&D passengers, making DEN the fourth-largest domestic O&D hub in the U.S.

International traffic at DEN accounts for approximately 2.2 million passengers annually – approximately 4 percent of the airport’s total passenger traffic"

'DEN is United Airlines’ fourth largest hub by capacity, serving nearly 140 destinations from DEN

United makes up just over 40 percent of DEN’s total seat market share

60 percent of United’s traffic at DEN is made up of connecting/transfer passengers

DEN is also the fourth largest hub in Southwest Airlines’ network by flights and capacity

Southwest serves over 60 destinations from DEN and makes up 30 percent of DEN’s seat market share

About three-fourths of Southwest’s traffic at DEN is O&D traffic

The Airport is also the largest base for Frontier Airlines with over 50 destinations from DEN

Frontier makes up over 11 percent of DEN’s total seat market share

Frontier’s traffic is nearly 90 percent O&D traffic at DEN

DEN is also served by American Airlines, with seven destinations from DEN, as well as Delta Air Lines, with nine destinations"


If UA added enough capacity to boost from 40% to 60% (i understand that this is now represents 120%), that would push DEN to 72m pax per year. WN sees 200 flights/day at DEN already, so if we assume that an increase to 300 flights represents a proportional increase in passenger count from the existing 30 percent share then that each 50 flights per day that WN operates out of DEN is 7.5% of the airport's existing traffic. So then from UA and WN alone, proposed increases in traffic would escalate to 81 million passengers per year. And that's not including frontier's recent rapid growth.

Something has to give. DEN is definitely a strong aviation market with the fourth highest number of O/D pax per year as it is, but I honestly don't see how a metro of 4 million people can support an airport with 80m pax per year. There isn't any major extraneous factor that would let DEN support 80m pax / year. I don't think that DEN is going to become ATL 2.0 either... each carrier faces so much competition as it is. Delta nailed ATL because they have kept competition at bay for decades. But DEN has hub carriers with market shares of 40%, 30%, and 11%. I don't think that DEN is conducive to becoming a fortress hub for any carrier, because as UA expands, WN and F9 will eat into their revenues, and a megahub doesn't really fit within F9 or WN's business model.

Washington-Baltimore-Arlington is a high income, high prestige metro area with 9.5m residents and roughly 60m pax/year at its main airports (baltimore washington, reagan national, dulles). Denver currently has 3.5m residents with 60m pax/year. DEN is obviously more conducive to a stronger aviation market but I think a lot of the growth recently has been to catch up with demand and to compete with competition. That's why fares are staying low. I genuinely don't believe that DEN will support 80m pax / year as WN and UA have proposed.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:02 am

jubguy3 wrote:
And that's not including frontier's recent rapid growth.

What growth? They are down significantly versus their heyday and their recent announcement of new destinations was followed by significant reductions in existing destinations according to enilria's weekly thread.
 
Judge1310
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am

trexel94 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.


So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...


Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.


Actually, both Cancún and Belize are considered part of the Caribbean. Take it from someone who’s from the area...
 
routeplanner
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:23 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN


Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.


Why would it be smart/wise to add PDX, SAN, SJC and ANC from Denver?
 
dochawk2
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:39 am

As a few have mentioned earlier, I see DL adding unique flights from DEN, they expanded operations when they moved from C to A and added a Sky Lounge. While United, Frontier, and Southwest continue to compete for similar markets, I think DL, with its different US footprint will be the dark horse here with the A expansion. No, they won’t try to overtake anyone, just gain more influence and committed flyer base from business travelers.
God, give us wings to fly!
 
airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:36 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
Southwest leadership has said that the plan is to grow denver to 250 flights, maybe as much as 300, and have it be their largest station. United has called for a 50% capacity increase at DEN.


Combined with the growth of F9 at Denver, I don't really know if I can see that as anywhere near being sustainable.

From the DIA website:
"This ranks DEN as the third-fastest growing airport in the world, behind only Kuala Lumpur and Delhi

DEN as the sixth busiest airport in the U.S. and 18th busiest in the world (2016)

Approximately 65 percent of travelers at DEN are origination and destination (O&D) passengers, and 35 percent are connecting

Approximately 35 million annual domestic passengers are O&D passengers, making DEN the fourth-largest domestic O&D hub in the U.S.

International traffic at DEN accounts for approximately 2.2 million passengers annually – approximately 4 percent of the airport’s total passenger traffic"

'DEN is United Airlines’ fourth largest hub by capacity, serving nearly 140 destinations from DEN

United makes up just over 40 percent of DEN’s total seat market share

60 percent of United’s traffic at DEN is made up of connecting/transfer passengers

DEN is also the fourth largest hub in Southwest Airlines’ network by flights and capacity

Southwest serves over 60 destinations from DEN and makes up 30 percent of DEN’s seat market share

About three-fourths of Southwest’s traffic at DEN is O&D traffic

The Airport is also the largest base for Frontier Airlines with over 50 destinations from DEN

Frontier makes up over 11 percent of DEN’s total seat market share

Frontier’s traffic is nearly 90 percent O&D traffic at DEN

DEN is also served by American Airlines, with seven destinations from DEN, as well as Delta Air Lines, with nine destinations"


If UA added enough capacity to boost from 40% to 60% (i understand that this is now represents 120%), that would push DEN to 72m pax per year. WN sees 200 flights/day at DEN already, so if we assume that an increase to 300 flights represents a proportional increase in passenger count from the existing 30 percent share then that each 50 flights per day that WN operates out of DEN is 7.5% of the airport's existing traffic. So then from UA and WN alone, proposed increases in traffic would escalate to 81 million passengers per year. And that's not including frontier's recent rapid growth.

Something has to give. DEN is definitely a strong aviation market with the fourth highest number of O/D pax per year as it is, but I honestly don't see how a metro of 4 million people can support an airport with 80m pax per year. There isn't any major extraneous factor that would let DEN support 80m pax / year. I don't think that DEN is going to become ATL 2.0 either... each carrier faces so much competition as it is. Delta nailed ATL because they have kept competition at bay for decades. But DEN has hub carriers with market shares of 40%, 30%, and 11%. I don't think that DEN is conducive to becoming a fortress hub for any carrier, because as UA expands, WN and F9 will eat into their revenues, and a megahub doesn't really fit within F9 or WN's business model.

Washington-Baltimore-Arlington is a high income, high prestige metro area with 9.5m residents and roughly 60m pax/year at its main airports (baltimore washington, reagan national, dulles). Denver currently has 3.5m residents with 60m pax/year. DEN is obviously more conducive to a stronger aviation market but I think a lot of the growth recently has been to catch up with demand and to compete with competition. That's why fares are staying low. I genuinely don't believe that DEN will support 80m pax / year as WN and UA have proposed.


Beyond the growth of Denver itself (which is projected to be very very robust), There is a simple fact that right now, the Airport is seeing 65% O&D versus 35% connecting, despite the fact that the airport itself was designed for 60% connecting, versus 40% O&D. I think it’s fair to say that the growth is just as likely to take advantage of Denver’s biggest advantage - it is geographically located in the center of country, with a huge catchement area, and no real competition airport wise.

Denver was designed, from day one, to be a “super-hub” leveraging it’s geographic location, and best in the US airfield layout. There is plenty of room for the airport to grow, both on a connecting basis, and a O&D basis,
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2149
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:38 pm

dochawk2 wrote:
As a few have mentioned earlier, I see DL adding unique flights from DEN, they expanded operations when they moved from C to A and added a Sky Lounge. While United, Frontier, and Southwest continue to compete for similar markets, I think DL, with its different US footprint will be the dark horse here with the A expansion. No, they won’t try to overtake anyone, just gain more influence and committed flyer base from business travelers.


Any growth that DL or AA does, is primarily going to be at the expense of UA, and frankly, I don’t see the dedicated business consumers that UA have moving over in such numbers as to make a huge dent here.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:38 pm

routeplanner wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
I think AS should move in and start some new routes from DEN


Alaska is adding a seventh daily SEA flight next summer. AS has PDX on their radar as more E175s come online too. VX was on the verge of announcing LAX prior to the merger. If AS is smart (and can find the pilots), they need to add PDX, SAN, and SJC. ANC a few times a week would be a wise add as well.


Why would it be smart/wise to add PDX, SAN, SJC and ANC from Denver?


PDX offers additional connecting options to compliment SEA. AS also has about 50 connections to PDX a day. F9 also cut DEN-PDX capacity as they cut DEN. It’s also an option when SEA and SFO see delays.

ANC has about 70+ connections a day via SEA. United also pushes a good number of passengers to AS due to weight restrictions on their flight. When AS served the route years ago load factors were very high, but fuel prices were higher and had less efficient aircraft on the route.

SJC and SAN are underserved markets, especially for business travelers out of DEN. Both are focus cities for AS. Adding SAN could also pull some travelers from AA, as they have about 30-40 connecting through LAX and PHX daily.
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caverunner17
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:53 am

jubguy3 wrote:

Something has to give. DEN is definitely a strong aviation market with the fourth highest number of O/D pax per year as it is, but I honestly don't see how a metro of 4 million people can support an airport with 80m pax per year. There isn't any major extraneous factor that would let DEN support 80m pax / year. I don't think that DEN is going to become ATL 2.0 either... each carrier faces so much competition as it is. Delta nailed ATL because they have kept competition at bay for decades. But DEN has hub carriers with market shares of 40%, 30%, and 11%. I don't think that DEN is conducive to becoming a fortress hub for any carrier, because as UA expands, WN and F9 will eat into their revenues, and a megahub doesn't really fit within F9 or WN's business model.

Washington-Baltimore-Arlington is a high income, high prestige metro area with 9.5m residents and roughly 60m pax/year at its main airports (baltimore washington, reagan national, dulles). Denver currently has 3.5m residents with 60m pax/year. DEN is obviously more conducive to a stronger aviation market but I think a lot of the growth recently has been to catch up with demand and to compete with competition. That's why fares are staying low. I genuinely don't believe that DEN will support 80m pax / year as WN and UA have proposed.


You're under-estimating the catchment area of Denver.

Realistically, this is closer to the catchment area of DEN - http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=200nm%40DEN

Yes, you have regional airports and COS with a few direct flights, but prices are often significantly higher than flying out of DEN. Catchment area for Denver is probably closer to 5-6 million.

In addition, tourism is very healthy in CO - with over 77 million tourists in 2015. Tourists per capita, I believe CO is one of the highest in the US with a rate of 77 million to 5.5 for the state, so 14 visitors per resident. Compared to California which is 6.4:1, Florida is 5.5:1, Hawaii is 6.3:1, etc. The only other state that I think comes close is Nevada, pretty much all of which is around Vegas. Needless to say, The O&D rate can be high for CO just because it is a popular place to visit. So that combined with a booming metro, doesn't surprise me that that number will increase in the future.I mean, just me and my GF alone have had 14 different people fly out to visit us in the last 1.5 years we've been here. Multiply that by how many new residents?
 
dochawk2
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:26 pm

airfrnt wrote:
dochawk2 wrote:
As a few have mentioned earlier, I see DL adding unique flights from DEN, they expanded operations when they moved from C to A and added a Sky Lounge. While United, Frontier, and Southwest continue to compete for similar markets, I think DL, with its different US footprint will be the dark horse here with the A expansion. No, they won’t try to overtake anyone, just gain more influence and committed flyer base from business travelers.


Any growth that DL or AA does, is primarily going to be at the expense of UA, and frankly, I don’t see the dedicated business consumers that UA have moving over in such numbers as to make a huge dent here.


I agree with you that DL, or any other carrier, will take away UA's base of business travelers. But DL can attract a lot of new businesses from the Denver metro area. Denver has one of the highest business growth rates in the US and a huge tech sector that hasn't attached themselves to any airline. Jet Blue might be the tech-friendly airline, but they don't have enough destinations at this time.

Thinking a bit more about it, Delta and AA could actually grow by keeping the new transplants to the area because those are the airlines they flew when they lived elsewhere. I fall into that category. I moved to Castle Rock (just south of Denver) from the east coast. I stayed with Delta because I was established with Delta. I actually never flew with UA while I lived there for 4 years. I did start to fly SW because of the timing of flights. One morning in the DEN Sky Lounge I got to talking with a group of business travelers. All of them had recently moved to the Denver area and were so happy to 1. get to use the new, albeit modest, Sky Lounge and not have to start earning miles with another airline! A friend of mine at who works at AA in DEN told me that they have seen a huge uptick in 1st class fares being purchased over the past 3 years. He attributed it to new businesses who liked their network better than UA's.

Quite possibly the addition of the new gate will be too much for the short term, but for the long term, only help the options available for carriers and PAX in the next 20 years. We shall see!
God, give us wings to fly!
 
WNflyer1523
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:51 pm

I could definitely see more international airlines like Air France, KLM, etc. and if Denver growth continues at this rate then it wouldn’t surprise me to see a few Asian airlines/routes down the road.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:14 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
Will AK make a move to get more gates and set up something small in DEN? I wouldn't be surprised. Their code share partner AA currently has five gates on the A concourse and flies to some of the likely cities AK may wish to target. I suspect an expanded Alaska presence in Denver would go over well.


Don't expect AS to grow much out of DEN anytime soon. They are focused on the merger at the moment, and don't have many route announcements coming up until the dust settles a bit. That being said, DEN would be a great place to add a few more flights. If they do add anything, it will be PDX on E175s, and they are a bit short on those/pilots at the moment.

AS will be using C38 & C39 once operations are merged with 10 daily flights (7 SEA and 3 SFO) planned for next summer.
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jhsusman
Topic Author
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:25 pm

I wonder if DEN will be building more space for clubs on the concourses - the United clubs on the B Concourse need some desperate attention and are always very crowded. How about a Lufthansa Senator / Biz Class lounge given the daily Frankfurt / Munich flights?
 
trexel94
Posts: 133
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:53 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
I could definitely see more international airlines like Air France, KLM, etc. and if Denver growth continues at this rate then it wouldn’t surprise me to see a few Asian airlines/routes down the road.


I agree but frankly I don't see KLM serving DEN anytime soon (not a skyteam hub, too close to SLC which they already serve and too few commercial ties between the Netherlands and Colorado). As for Air France, I know its far too early to tell but I could see JOON serving DEN at some point as Denver would fit into its brand persona nicely and I predict JOON will aim for routes not currently served by Air France or are more leisure focused. Denver needs more than Norwegian on the route to Paris.

As mentioned before, more Asia flights are on the horizon according to airport management so expect PEK and ICN soon.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 pm

I'm connecting through Denver from London to Des Moines. Although that city is closer to Chicago, this way was much cheaper and the times were also better (Norweigan/Delta). At Denver I think the catchment area could stretch all the way from Chicago to LA as these states have low populations and their many of their cities don't their own international flights so Denver could function as a hub for them.
 
Tan Flyr
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:02 pm

freakyrat wrote:
One daily E175 flight SBN-DEN. on Skywest for United. SBN is working to restore this service. United would have better yeilds with the right sized aircraft. On an average F9's Airbus A319 three times a week was seeing 118 Pax in and outbound. Flight was also building where it was mostly full all the time toward the end of F9's service but F9 pulled it when they were switching to an ULCC and dehhubbing DEN. When United flew the route with a B727 after deregulation they averaged about 65-75 passengers a day so an E175 in todays cost environment would be ideal. FWA-DEN with an E175 would work also. These flights would give passengers the option of west connecting hubs instead of relying on service via ORD.


Prior to deregulation UA flew the FWA-SBN -DEN route with a 727-100..I don't recall if was a 96 or 108 seat configuration in those days..When Richard Farris dropped almost all the Chicago & Cleveland routes from places like FWA/TOL/SBN/ LAN they tried filling 727-200's on some dumb routings like FWA-PIA-DEN..during a recession..and wondered why it failed.

FreakyRat is correct, a 175 should work perfectly from FWA and SBN.
 
Freshside3
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:14 am

Big gaping hole in the combined airlines' DEN schedule to PIT, Ohio stations(other than CLE), and anything that to Michigan that isn't DTW. Big gap between the mornings and early evening; a flight or two of these around 2pm slot would work. Something around 4pm to to MSY might be good.

As for as new routes..... Getting ICN is a must. More Germany would be good. As for Paris, many people in the French film industry vacation in Colorado. They got bucks, they will travel business class, so "real" AF might be a better choice than putting Joon on the route. Especially with another low-cost carrier(Norwegian) coming to DEN in April.

And an assortment of destinations that are minimally(or not) served from other US hubs.....such as BJX, LCE, IFP, SCK, OSH......which would fit in nicely at DEN.
 
Freshside3
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:16 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Dupe post.
 
trexel94
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:11 pm

DEN could be UA's largest hub by 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 19-443246/

What is everyone's take on this?
 
rajincajun01
Posts: 701
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:17 pm

trexel94 wrote:
DEN could be UA's largest hub by 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 19-443246/

What is everyone's take on this?


The article states the second largest, not largest. Chicago would have to shrink significantly, and I wouldn’t expect Kirby to concede ORD to AA. IAH hasn’t had a lot going for it with oil being down and a hurricane. UA definitely won’t be able to grow that much at DEN just adding the EAS cities that were listed in the article. Will be interesting to see where the growth comes from.
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intotheair
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:27 am

I think it's certainly possible. DEN was always the second largest hub pre-merger. Post-merger, as far as daily departures go, it has always been nearly tied with EWR. So if IAH doesn't grow or shrinks, and if DEN grows more than expected, then it's very possible. It's already growing from where it was post-merger by seeing the return of larger equipment (the return of the 757 pilot base, more 777/787 domestic turns, more 739s, fewer RJs). WN is planning a huge increase in DEN too to the point that DEN could soon be WN's largest base, so it's not surprising that Kirby's UA would want to grow DEN accordingly.
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phluser
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:01 am

lat41 wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
I could see some mid-size markets in the east coast like:

ORF, MHT, ISP, ROC, MDT, etc.

WN already had N/S from PVD and MHT and they did very well and not because they were cheap. Along comes WN @ BOS and the flights go away and reappear at BOS. Then however because of hammering competition there the fares drop and DEN is almost always on the bargain "Click n' Save" fare page. What was gained? I'm sure there are similar examples around the WN system to DEN and elsewhere. Now Frontier does PVD and in time to come maybe MHT.


Really, the statement should be along came B6 @ BOS. WN had to move it's DEN flights to BOS since flying out of MHT/PVD still was going to be an inferior choice at that point and less sustainable. WN had the strength on the DEN side, and connections to/from the West Coast. Plus, when it cut PHL-BOS, it had gate space at BOS to do a bunch of 2x daily markets instead.
 
dcaviation
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:06 am

trexel94 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
I spoke with Kim Davis a few months ago regarding new service and her team are aiming for the following cities/airlines within the next 2-6 years.

CPH - SAS or Norwegian
PEK - Air China most likely
PVG - Hainan or Air China
DXB - Emirates
ICN - ether on Asiana or Korean Air
AKL - Air New Zealand.


A few formers here have also mentioned that Aer Lingus and Qatar were interested as well. In addition, a Norwegian Air exc has hinted at BCN and OSL in the near future too.

What Denver also needs are flights to the Caribbean. No shortage of Mexican/Hawaiian routes but DEN doesn't have a single flight to the Caribbean.


So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...


Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.


Yes, Cancun is in Mexico right on the Caribbean Sea, and Belize is Caribbean country. The only water that they have is Caribbean Sea.
So that's why you don't consider them to be in the Caribbean?
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:52 am

I connected off of LH MUC-DEN to UA thinking it would have been easier than LAX. Wrong! What a hike to CBP. Plus the moving sidewalks were out, had to go uphill. Barely made my very legal connection. Felt very sorry for people with mobility issues/seniors etc that didn’t request wheelchairs. Many like their independence and would rather move on their own.

Any other thoughts on INTL-DOM at Denver?

If I weren’t in Business and had to wait to get off the a/c and then at CBP I would have missed my flight.
 
jhsusman
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:55 pm

The city council approved the expansion last night so it looks like construction will start next spring. If you look at the mock-up images of the concourse expansions, it’s interesting to see that the A concourse will feature 9 widebody gates - I wonder if any will feature a 3rd jetbridge for any future A380 service.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Frontier uses Denver as their hub and they are going through some major expansion airports and routes wise. They could possibly use the extra gates.
 
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intotheair
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:59 am

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Frontier uses Denver as their hub and they are going through some major expansion airports and routes wise. They could possibly use the extra gates.


Or not. They just gave up a few gates in A, including some that are now Delta gates.
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intotheair
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:19 am

Mildly-related question: does anyone know whether B is *wider* than A and C? It's obviously longer, but somebody was trying to tell me today that he thought B was also wider. I thought maybe that's just because B has two lanes of moving walkways in each direction while the other concourses only have one. Are A and C both wide enough to eventually build another land of moving walkways? Is that part of the expansion plan?
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airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:29 pm

jhsusman wrote:
The city council approved the expansion last night so it looks like construction will start next spring. If you look at the mock-up images of the concourse expansions, it’s interesting to see that the A concourse will feature 9 widebody gates - I wonder if any will feature a 3rd jetbridge for any future A380 service.


Not initially, but they can add the jetbridge with very minimal cost because they already have the two story bay. LH and the city did a feasabiltiy study a few years back, but LH decided to go and add a munich flight rather then double up on the FRA flight.
 
airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:31 pm

intotheair wrote:
Mildly-related question: does anyone know whether B is *wider* than A and C? It's obviously longer, but somebody was trying to tell me today that he thought B was also wider. I thought maybe that's just because B has two lanes of moving walkways in each direction while the other concourses only have one. Are A and C both wide enough to eventually build another land of moving walkways? Is that part of the expansion plan?


AFAIK, the terminals are all the same width. The double walkways where a contract concession to UA. UA's lower gate utilization means that it can give up more of that common space without overflowing into the walking areas during a bank. The airport is going to replace _all_ of the conveyances (walkways, escalators, elevators) as part of this contract, so you may see more of them get built out.
 
SPREE34
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:55 pm

39 new gates, and the terminal infrastructure is already reaching it's limits. This ought to be a real goat rope in about 2025.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:02 pm

SPREE34 wrote:
39 new gates, and the terminal infrastructure is already reaching it's limits. This ought to be a real goat rope in about 2025.


Between this, and the great haul overhaul, the additional train set, and the replacement of conveyances, what are you concerned about?
 
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mariner
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:11 pm

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Frontier uses Denver as their hub and they are going through some major expansion airports and routes wise. They could possibly use the extra gates.


Given the new order fort aircraft - 134 for Frontier - I'd say so:

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/15/fr ... leet-size/

"Frontier will triple in size over next 10 years, parent places $49.5 billion order for Airbus planes
430 planes ordered by Indigo will be spread across domestic and international carriers."


That's on top of the planes they already have on order, taking the deal to about 200 aircraft.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
rajincajun01
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:52 pm

airfrnt wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Mildly-related question: does anyone know whether B is *wider* than A and C? It's obviously longer, but somebody was trying to tell me today that he thought B was also wider. I thought maybe that's just because B has two lanes of moving walkways in each direction while the other concourses only have one. Are A and C both wide enough to eventually build another land of moving walkways? Is that part of the expansion plan?


AFAIK, the terminals are all the same width. The double walkways where a contract concession to UA. UA's lower gate utilization means that it can give up more of that common space without overflowing into the walking areas during a bank. The airport is going to replace _all_ of the conveyances (walkways, escalators, elevators) as part of this contract, so you may see more of them get built out.


The person who runs the Instagram broken_escalators_of_DEN will be disappointed. Hopefully they will break down less frequently.
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airfrnt
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:49 pm

mariner wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Frontier uses Denver as their hub and they are going through some major expansion airports and routes wise. They could possibly use the extra gates.


Given the new order fort aircraft - 134 for Frontier - I'd say so:

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/15/fr ... leet-size/

"Frontier will triple in size over next 10 years, parent places $49.5 billion order for Airbus planes
430 planes ordered by Indigo will be spread across domestic and international carriers."


That's on top of the planes they already have on order, taking the deal to about 200 aircraft.

mariner


I'm guessing that this is the reason the Airport decided to do the even larger build out of DEN, then just the base 20 gates they were going to add.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:00 am

Between Delta, Frontier, Southwest, Spirit, United (and AA if they know what is good for them), hourly shuttle service to, you know where, is a given!

Hourly on each, so you are no more than 10 minutes away to the greatest place on earth; DTW!
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:32 am

airfrnt wrote:
mariner wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Frontier uses Denver as their hub and they are going through some major expansion airports and routes wise. They could possibly use the extra gates.


Given the new order fort aircraft - 134 for Frontier - I'd say so:

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/15/fr ... leet-size/

"Frontier will triple in size over next 10 years, parent places $49.5 billion order for Airbus planes
430 planes ordered by Indigo will be spread across domestic and international carriers."


That's on top of the planes they already have on order, taking the deal to about 200 aircraft.

mariner


I'm guessing that this is the reason the Airport decided to do the even larger build out of DEN, then just the base 20 gates they were going to add.


Exactly ..... Frontier this summer announced its massive expansion for new routes and cities. Denver was mentioned as the hub and increasing traffic through Denver.
 
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intotheair
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:12 pm

airfrnt wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Mildly-related question: does anyone know whether B is *wider* than A and C? It's obviously longer, but somebody was trying to tell me today that he thought B was also wider. I thought maybe that's just because B has two lanes of moving walkways in each direction while the other concourses only have one. Are A and C both wide enough to eventually build another land of moving walkways? Is that part of the expansion plan?


AFAIK, the terminals are all the same width. The double walkways where a contract concession to UA. UA's lower gate utilization means that it can give up more of that common space without overflowing into the walking areas during a bank. The airport is going to replace _all_ of the conveyances (walkways, escalators, elevators) as part of this contract, so you may see more of them get built out.


Thank you for this! Can't wait until they build more as well as increase the seating when the west end of A is expanded. Right now, it feels a little cramped.
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luckyone
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:56 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:

So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...


Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.


Actually, this is splitting hairs. BZE and CUN have coastlines on the Caribbean, so they should be classified as such.


Island destinations in the Caribbean are likely to present a challenge when operating from just about any hub west of Texas, for much the same reason that East Coast-Hawaii has a limited market compared to West Coast. Flight distances and accordingly flight times, yields, and costs associated with flying over hubs with existing service chasing aforementioned not high yields. Time zones also make that a difficult prospect for many people in terms of convenient departure times. As opposed to East Coast flights to the Caribbean, you will basically lose an entire day to flying when departing from cities further west that CST.
 
77H
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:10 am

luckyone wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:

Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.


Actually, this is splitting hairs. BZE and CUN have coastlines on the Caribbean, so they should be classified as such.


Island destinations in the Caribbean are likely to present a challenge when operating from just about any hub west of Texas, for much the same reason that East Coast-Hawaii has a limited market compared to West Coast. Flight distances and accordingly flight times, yields, and costs associated with flying over hubs with existing service chasing aforementioned not high yields. Time zones also make that a difficult prospect for many people in terms of convenient departure times. As opposed to East Coast flights to the Caribbean, you will basically lose an entire day to flying when departing from cities further west that CST.


Except for the fact that there is a sizeable market for East Coast/Midwest-Hawaii. This argument comes up all the time on airliners for whatever reason and is not supported by facts. If East Coast/Midwest-Hawaii was so limited there would not be daily nonstops from EWR/JFK/ATL/ORD/DFW/IAH/DEN, all of which are East of the Rockies. Beyond that there are less than daily or season services out of IAD and MSP. I just looked up visitor statistics by CBSA. YTD 24,700 visitors to Hawaii have come from the MIA/FLL/PBI CBSA (a vacation destination in its own right). Broken down, on average ~66 people from the greater Miami Area travel to Hawaii each day.

Back to the Caribbean. You lose the most time when you have to make a connection. If airlines were to offer nonstops from DEN to the Caribbean there is a strong probability that such a flight would entice people in the DEN catchment area. Nonstops tend to have the psychological effect of making destinations seem closer. If you're a Sun Seeking DEN resident, chances are, you've already been to the Baja, Cancun and possibly Hawaii. There is something to be said about mixing it up and trying something new.

77H
 
quickmover
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:20 am

Thank you for this! Can't wait until they build more as well as increase the seating when the west end of A is expanded. Right now, it feels a little cramped.[/quote]

Didn’t they already add some gates on the west end of A when Delta moved over there?
 
rph99
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:37 am

I think F9 played this out really well over the last few years as an ULCC. They reduced Denver service drastically...gave up gates and opened new bases elsewhere. They had a huge nation wide increase which has been very successful. They probably new this large gate expansion was gonna happen sooner than later and decided to branch out across the nation and really get their name out there. 2 years later they order 150+ new planes and are probably planning to return to the amount of Denver service they provided at their peak here while maintaining/increasing the markets they have tapped into over the last few years!

Denver is only growing! Lots of potential to tap back into the market they once dominated! People are starting to come around to the ULCC model!
 
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intotheair
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:22 am

quickmover wrote:
Thank you for this! Can't wait until they build more as well as increase the seating when the west end of A is expanded. Right now, it feels a little cramped.


Didn’t they already add some gates on the west end of A when Delta moved over there?[/quote]

I think they're adding two more gates in the interim, aren't they? But the concourse floor space isn't increasing. Just more of those really long jetways.
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FA9295
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:37 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
UA is going daily, year-round on its Hawaii flights that were seasonal. UA is also starting LHR seasonally next year. SkyWest is adding about 20 flights a day with the EAS routes they picked up. People assume WN growth is just limited to new cities, but growth can be frequency increases too. WN could grow Mexico from DEN if they choose. Norwegian starts Paris next year, and is considering Oslo. Copa, WestJet and Edelweiss all start DEN flights next year. Emirates announcement to DXB is a matter of when, not if. DEN also needs to land a China flight.

All of that being said, AA and F9 are shrinking at DEN.


F9 is shrinking at DEN because of their newer (though not so new anymore) management system into forming a low-cost airline, hence, they've opened up lots of other hubs/focus cities and left DEN in the dust...

And also Hainan Airlines would most likely be the airline of choice to start a route to China (DEN-PEK) which I can definitely see in the near future...
 
dc10lover
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Re: New Routes From Denver: What To Do With 39 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:13 am

dcaviation wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:

So wait, I guess we ought to ignore CUN and BZE? Be careful with using absolutes...

Denverites do enjoy the Caribbean (connections through Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Fort Lauderdale, et al) for sure. But the Mexican Pacific coast is right there for us so...


Not to split hairs but Cancun is in Mexico and Belize is located in Central America, nether are technically considered Caribbean destinations so my argument still stands. I'm referring to places like Montego Bay, Punta Cana, Nassau etc.


Yes, Cancun is in Mexico right on the Caribbean Sea, and Belize is Caribbean country. The only water that they have is Caribbean Sea.
So that's why you don't consider them to be in the Caribbean?

Cancun is in the Gulf of Mexico.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.

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