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thomacf
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ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:50 pm

Any chance any of them would start service even on a seasonal or limited weekly schedule? The first two perhaps more so for Emirates with Dubai being a major financial market.

BDA - financial/reinsurance
Grand Cayman - financial
Trinidad - oil
HAV
NAS
Kingston
Montego Bay
USVI or BVI
Antilles
etc...

Setting aside Mexico City, any cities in Central America. Panama City on Emirates never came to fruition, right?
 
gunnerman
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:41 pm

The ME3 carriers won't bring in traffic from the Persian Gulf (and east of it) to the destinations you suggest as the demand isn't there. Even from Europe, BDA gets only BA from LGW, NAS and GCM share only BA from LHR, POS has to share UVF on BA from LGW, KIN gets only BA from LGW, etc.
 
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chepos
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:21 am

The traffic is just not there, neither to DXB or beyond. Trinidad and Guyana have a large Indo Caribbean community (particularly Guyana) but few maintain links to India. Back in the Venezuelan heyday a route to DXB would have worked but not today, and yes I am aware Venezuela is in S. America.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:33 am

Indeed very little demand for this region from anything east of Europe. Most people visiting Central America are from either Europe or North America. This makes the ME3 hubs are geographically in the wrong place. Many countries in central America are former colonies of European countries and still got strong ties with that country, however very little ties with the rest of the world. Jamaica for example used to be British and is served by British Airways, while the neighbouring country Haïti used to be French and is served by Air France. These flights are almost entirely O/D flights, very little transfer passengers from other countries.
 
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chepos
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:08 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Indeed very little demand for this region from anything east of Europe. Most people visiting Central America are from either Europe or North America. This makes the ME3 hubs are geographically in the wrong place. Many countries in central America are former colonies of European countries and still got strong ties with that country, however very little ties with the rest of the world. Jamaica for example used to be British and is served by British Airways, while the neighbouring country Haïti used to be French and is served by Air France. These flights are almost entirely O/D flights, very little transfer passengers from other countries.


AF only serves PAP via regional services to the French Caribbean and MIA, not even to Europe.
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Zidane
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:07 am

There is a decent Arab presence within the region, mainly along the Eastern Archepelogo, however it is still low yielding. It's the one region these carries can't touch consequently. Perhaps tagging a few legs, with Fifth Freedom, may be sustained, but that's just wishful thinking.
 
guyanam
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:21 am

chepos wrote:
The traffic is just not there, neither to DXB or beyond. Trinidad and Guyana have a large Indo Caribbean community (particularly Guyana) but few maintain links to India. Back in the Venezuelan heyday a route to DXB would have worked but not today, and yes I am aware Venezuela is in S. America.


Actually the Indo Caribbean population in T&T is larger. In both countries it is now just under 40%of the population, and T&Ts is almost double that of Guyana's. This population is not "Indian" in the sense that Indian diasporic communities exist in North America and Europe. Their interest in travel to India MIGHT be a once in a lifetime pilgrimage, Their O&D/VFR travel will be to Indo Caribbean communities in North America, Indo Caribbean communities in North America don't have any more contact with the Asian Indian communities than they do with the Afro Caribbean ones.

The best that one can get will be some sort of code share arrangement with an ME3 carrier. BW has an interline arrangement with Emirates.
 
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chepos
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:01 am

guyanam wrote:
chepos wrote:
The traffic is just not there, neither to DXB or beyond. Trinidad and Guyana have a large Indo Caribbean community (particularly Guyana) but few maintain links to India. Back in the Venezuelan heyday a route to DXB would have worked but not today, and yes I am aware Venezuela is in S. America.


Actually the Indo Caribbean population in T&T is larger. In both countries it is now just under 40%of the population, and T&Ts is almost double that of Guyana's. This population is not "Indian" in the sense that Indian diasporic communities exist in North America and Europe. Their interest in travel to India MIGHT be a once in a lifetime pilgrimage, Their O&D/VFR travel will be to Indo Caribbean communities in North America, Indo Caribbean communities in North America don't have any more contact with the Asian Indian communities than they do with the Afro Caribbean ones.

The best that one can get will be some sort of code share arrangement with an ME3 carrier. BW has an interline arrangement with Emirates.


For some reason I was under the impression Guyana had a larger “Indian” community than Trini. I have a few Trinidian colleagues of Indian ancestry and they have no attachment to India. Trinidad is home and their travels to visit family are to T&T, NYC and Toronto (London to a smaller extent).
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SCQ83
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:43 am

What ever happened with that Dubai-Panama flight?
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:52 am

The ME3 rely heavily on pax from India / Australia / Europe flying into and out of their hubs. Only pax from Europe may potentially visit these destinations and the ME3 hubs cannot facilitate a connection seeing where they are.

Short answer.
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Cunard
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:07 am

SCQ83 wrote:
What ever happened with that Dubai-Panama flight?


Emirates proposed Dubai to Panama City flight was cancelled indefinitely by EK on the 08 March 2016.
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lightsaber
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:24 am

Cunard wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
What ever happened with that Dubai-Panama flight?


Emirates proposed Dubai to Panama City flight was cancelled indefinitely by EK on the 08 March 2016.

Demand wasn't there. ULH is expensive to fly. EK now flies to FLL instead. With connections at FLL, EK now has a good idea on caribbean demand. I couldn't figure out a way for the few passengers. FLL only adds 80nm to the whole flight.

The issue is too many of those who would want to fly direct to these destinations will have access to a private jet.

The great cicle map to the caribbean flies right over Zurich. A quick refuel and the premium passengers are on their way. Or they could stop in North Italy, France, Spain, or the UK with only a little added flight time.
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tommyarias
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:46 am

Cunard wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
What ever happened with that Dubai-Panama flight?


Emirates proposed Dubai to Panama City flight was cancelled indefinitely by EK on the 08 March 2016.


On an interview in October with aviation authorities and PTY managers, it was announced that 10 airlines are talking with the Panama Government to start operations to airports around the country, and from rumors at the airport's head office, those include Emirates with a non-stop from Dubai and Etihad via Europe instead of non-stop from Abu Dhabi. Terminal 1 is operating nearly at capacity and doesn't really have space to accommodate more wide-body aircrafts (LH with a A343, IB with a A332 and KL with a B772, at the same time on the ground, and AF with a B772 landing when the rest are all leaving) wanting the evening or night flight banks from CM, except TK who arrives in the morning, so with Terminal 2 opening next year, it will relieve the pressure and allow more wide-bodies in the airport. QR is the only that there's no news from.
Last edited by tommyarias on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SonOfABeech
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:47 am

Yeah, I don't think the demand is there besides MEX. DXB-PTY was always supposed to work with Copa connections, and when they couldn't get approval it was canned.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:52 am

Not enough demand/traffic there, with the (future) exception of hopefully MEX and PTY.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:53 am

Not enough demand/traffic there, with the (future) exception of hopefully MEX and PTY.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:27 pm

SonOfABeech wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the demand is there besides MEX. DXB-PTY was always supposed to work with Copa connections, and when they couldn't get approval it was canned.

Where would that MEX demand be to/from? Not just a few PAX, but to fill like 300 seats constantly, and with a decent yield... Europe? Nope, detour. Far East? Nope, detour. Australia/NZ? Nope, detour. What remains is Africa, South Asia and the Middle East. None of them have any business, cultural, historical nor tourism ties to Mexico to speak of. DXB is actually NOT the centre of the World, in spite of its otherwise great location.
 
dodgers702
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:28 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
SonOfABeech wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the demand is there besides MEX. DXB-PTY was always supposed to work with Copa connections, and when they couldn't get approval it was canned.

Where would that MEX demand be to/from? Not just a few PAX, but to fill like 300 seats constantly, and with a decent yield... Europe? Nope, detour. Far East? Nope, detour. Australia/NZ? Nope, detour. What remains is Africa, South Asia and the Middle East. None of them have any business, cultural, historical nor tourism ties to Mexico to speak of. DXB is actually NOT the centre of the World, in spite of its otherwise great location.


Well Emirates has been trying hard to find a way to land in Mexico so they must think there is some demand. They are trying to get Mexico to either approve a triangular DXB-MEX-CUN route and/or a DXB-BCN-MEX route. I am no expert that can guarantee the demand will be there but it looks that you are so sure a destination linking both cities would fail. Lets just leave it to the big airline executive gurus to decide if an Dubai-Mexico route would be feasible.
 
guyanam
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm

chepos wrote:
[For some reason I was under the impression Guyana had a larger “Indian” community than Trini. I have a few Trinidian colleagues of Indian ancestry and they have no attachment to India. Trinidad is home and their travels to visit family are to T&T, NYC and Toronto (London to a smaller extent).


This is because there is a much larger Indo Guyanese population in North America than Indo Trinidadian, so that is who one is more likely to encounter. Also 25 years ago Indians were at 50% of the Guyana population, but with massive emigration it is now less than 40%, or comparable to T&T.

While Indo Guyanese might have a stronger "Indian" identity than their counterparts in T&T that is only relevant in their dealings with Guyanese who have other ethnic/cultural identities. India is of less interest, especially since they learned that people from India almost never see them as "true" Indians. One only need to see how Indo Guyanese respond to Indian drumming styles. They have distinct "Afro Caribbean" movements.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: ME3 & Caribbean/Central America

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:35 am

tommyarias wrote:
Cunard wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
What ever happened with that Dubai-Panama flight?


Emirates proposed Dubai to Panama City flight was cancelled indefinitely by EK on the 08 March 2016.


On an interview in October with aviation authorities and PTY managers, it was announced that 10 airlines are talking with the Panama Government to start operations to airports around the country, and from rumors at the airport's head office, those include Emirates with a non-stop from Dubai and Etihad via Europe instead of non-stop from Abu Dhabi. Terminal 1 is operating nearly at capacity and doesn't really have space to accommodate more wide-body aircrafts (LH with a A343, IB with a A332 and KL with a B772, at the same time on the ground, and AF with a B772 landing when the rest are all leaving) wanting the evening or night flight banks from CM, except TK who arrives in the morning, so with Terminal 2 opening next year, it will relieve the pressure and allow more wide-bodies in the airport. QR is the only that there's no news from.

The talks w/QR have been at a more diplomatic level so no news from any QR to PTY (via Europe) yet.
There's no point of both EK and EH flying to PTY. Lets just wish for EK via Europe and if it works well for EK the non-stop.
Right now PTY is a mess when 2 European flights are in.

SonOfABeech wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the demand is there besides MEX. DXB-PTY was always supposed to work with Copa connections, and when they couldn't get approval it was canned.

Rumour was that EK required CM to be the one to take care of EK-CM code-share passengers when booked CM if EK flights were to be cancelled.
One gathers from this that CM at least knew the route wasn't ready for daily (non-stop) flights.
All of that would have been solved if EK and CM had worked only by an interline agreement.
I'm not on CM's payroll.

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