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F-WWKH
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Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 9:04 pm

Reportedly a China Airlines MD-11 crashed at bad weather in Hong Kong and caught fire.

Whatever the reason that will definitely have a negative impact on CALs reputation and move them closer to Korean Air.

Also the MD-11 sees yet another loss and that will also heat up discussion (like the ones we had here recently as well about MD-11s future)
 
kaitak
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 9:45 pm

The BBC now reports that the aircraft, operating a flight from Bangkok (CI 642) was carrying 315 passengers and crew (the config, according to the Jp, is C34Y270). The aircraft was landing in HK in bad weather and according to reports, it "flipped" (bringing the Fed Ex MD11 at EWR to mind).
One factor that comes to mind immediately is the weather. CLK is very close to VERY high ground, the highest peaks at Lantau rising to over 2,800'. The Jeppesen charts for CLK give very clear warnings for windshear at the airport. Although this looks very bad for the MD11 - and particularly for CAL - initial reports don't seem to suggest that the type opf aircraft was a factor.
It remains to be seen whether the aircraft was in CAL livery or in Mandarin livery. The loss now leaves the airline with four MD11s.
 
Cathay111
Posts: 517
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It Was Here In SYD Yesterday

Sun Aug 22, 1999 9:53 pm

Hi All,

The aircraft that crashed was B-150 and I took shots of it here in Sydney yesterday.

I will upload them as soon as possible.

Regards
Craig
 
freddy
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 9:54 pm

Anyone knows the reg-number of that aircraft? Can it be found on this site?

If the airline only owns five MD-11's, it can't be that hard to figure out the reg. Does all five fly into CLK?

Freddy
 
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F-WWKH
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:01 pm

Reportedly there was also a typhoon in the region and eye-witnesses claim the aircraft was already burning before it came down.
The majority of the 315 escaped the burning wreck.
If it is really B-150 it should be in Mandarin c/s.

And I agree with you Kaitak however after a certain period people (aka passengers) just see the amount of MD-11/CAL crashes' without asking for the background and refuse to fly that airline (or aircraft, if they can recognize it)
 
Airbus A3XX
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:07 pm

I was watching the news of it also. I don't think that the crash was caused by the crews but by the bad weather. Now the typhoon signal no.8(Which means very strong wind) was hoisted. And the rain here is extrememly strong. I can see the reporter seemed can't stand on the airport as well. After reading the news report, I have some problems:
1. Since the report said that the plane was crashed on the southern runway, why don't they open the northern runway?
2. Why China Airlines still let the plane to go to HK? It's such a bad weather in HK so why the plane still depart from Bangkok???
This may be a CAL's fault.
 
DragonairA330
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:19 pm

The latest report from Commercial Radio of Hong Kong said there was already one person dead and 10 people seriously hurt including 4 from the crew.
 
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F-WWKH
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RE: Freddy

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:20 pm

Is that all you care, whether you have it in your log already?
What about the passengers, crew, and their relatives...?
 
freddy
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:30 pm

If it's B-150, it's in Mandarin Airlines livery. How come? So it's owned by China Airlines but operated by Mandarin?

Or are they the same?

F-WWKH, that last comment was pretty low and uncalled for. Is the well-being of the MD-11 reputation all you care for?

Freddy
 
kaitak
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RE: Freddy

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:36 pm

Fair point, 'WWKH, but thankfully the initial reports are "positive" (relatively speaking) in relation to casualties - one dead and four (reported by the BBC to be crewmembers). In fairness, most of the comments here have been been about more than just the registration. To answer another questioner's point, if it was the southern runway, 25L/7R, it will certainly raise questions. The new runway is only open for a few hours per day and I remember reading somewhere that occupants in a residential area under the flightpath objected to the new runway, so it MAY have been due to noise restrictions that the northern runway was not available? (I'm just offering that as a suggestion, not as a statement - at this stage, very little is clear).
However, in relation to CAL allowing the aircraft to leave BKK, I don't think this is quite fair. Even if the storm was very bad, the crew would have had enough to fuel to hold and divert to another airport. Other aircraft were landing (I understand) and the ATC people would have given the necessary warnings; it's very difficult to predict if/when shear would have occurred - it certainly couldn't have been done at BKK. Let's not jump down CAL's neck right away!
 
Panman
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F-WWKH

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:38 pm

Yes it's tragic that the plane crashed. It's tragic that they have reported 10 dead and 4 injured (or was it the other way around).

But there is no need for you to be a drama queen and get all melodramatic about it. Should we all just give up on whatever activity it is we like and mope around all day feeling sorry? I think not!

pAnmAn
 
DragonairA330
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Panman

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:44 pm

Sorry! Perhaps my English is not so good and made u misunderstand, there was only one dead and the 10 are seriously injured :-)
 
kaitak
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RE: B150/Mandarin

Sun Aug 22, 1999 10:47 pm

Freddy:
Yes, they are indeed one and the same, although Mandarin's name will soon disappear from international routes, as the airline has "merged" with Formosa Airlines, which operates F100s and F50s on Taiwanese domestic routes. It had two (I think) SPs, now retired and the MD11s will gradually be repainted in CAL livery, to be replaced by the newly ordered A340s.
Politics plays a large part in Taiwan's international links and this was the reason Mandarin was set up; it does not carry the Taiwanese flag (nor indeed does the new CAL Plum Blossom Livery). China would object strenuously if an airliner carrying the Taiwanese flag were allowed to fly into a country with which it had relations and, for the same reason, airlines set up subsidiaries specifically for Taiwanese flights (British Asia, Air France Asie, Swissair Asia etc.)

 
kaitak
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Sun Aug 22, 1999 11:19 pm

Just been looking up PPRuNET (Professional Pilots' Rumour Network - not that I am one, I just look it up!). It looks as if the aircraft landed on 7R, which is indeed the southern runway. Reports of 25-45 knot crosswind all day. I quote from the Jeppesen guide, page 20-9F:
"Severe turbulence can be expected when windspeeds exceed 30 KT. The surface winds at the airport are generally not good indications of the prevailing winds og the region due to TERRAIN (my caps.) and land-sea breezes.
(Latest BBC report - one dead was 31 yr. old woman (doesn't say whether pax or crew), 188 injured, incl. 20 seriously).
 
CX747
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Second Runway

Sun Aug 22, 1999 11:28 pm

Condolences to the families of the people killed. The second runway is only used right now when the first runway is having work done to it and such. It is only used for a few hours a day. Do we have any information from earlier flights that landed before them? Also, is the airport open or closed?
 
kaitak
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RE: Second Runway

Mon Aug 23, 1999 12:40 am

Hello CX 747,
According to reports, CLK is now shut. On PPRuNET, a Cathay captain is interviewed. The weather was bad; he had to go around and divert to Macau. He returned to land about two acft. ahead of the M11 and was taxiing in when one of his pax. saw a fire at the end of the runway. Rain described as VERY heavy.
The storm, initially described as a tropical storm rather than a typhoon, hit HK with winds of up to 85 Mph; roads and bridges were closed. 2 now dead, "several critical" and 11 injured.

Given that strong winds of this nature are to be expected in HK, expect to see a reopening of the debate on the issue of the siting of the airport and possible restrictions on the use of the airport - even just 25L/7R - during severe wind conditions?
 
kaitak
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 2:46 am

Just watching the BBC News at 6.25 - a 30 second mention, although it did show footage. The cockpit section was clearly recognisable - upside down.
Most passengers reported to be Thai.
Interestingly, a CAL spokesman (NB not an ATC official) reports that the captain informed ATC that a fire had broken out on board and that the captain had sought an emergency landing.
 
Marrty
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 2:49 am

I do not like the MD-11, or DC-10 series of aircraft. When I book a flight I refuse to fly on one. It seems to be plagued with problems. I am comforted knowing that there soon will be no more in production, but with the lifespan of those already in service, I can't help but be cautious. Anyone else feel the same way?
 
Boeing 777-400
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 2:52 am

Is there a website for bbc news or PPRu nET so i can get some factual info, because ive heard that all 315 peopl dies and that only one person died who is correct??
 
cedarjet
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They Had An In-flight Fire

Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:16 am

According to CNN, there was a fire in the cabin and the plane was making an emergency landing, which explains the reason they were forced down in such dire weather. Was the flight even going to HKG, or was it bound for Taipei? I didn't think they flew the BKK to TPE sector via HKG, whenever I've flown CI from BKK to TPE it's been a non-stop MD11 in Mandarin colours but with CI service (cutlery, menu, cabin crew, flt. no. etc). If the in-flight fire is true (and I have just had it confirmed again by phone) then I may never fly in an MD11 again, this is two of it's known defects coming out at once - electrical (now I'm guessing) fire and landing instability. What a piece of crap that plane is. McDD sure filled the boots left by the DC10 before their own demise. Imagine if it'd been FBW. Actually, that would have been better, it would never had flown in the first place. China Southwest - in-flight over China Federal Express - Newark NJ Swissair - Peggy's Cove NS Korean Air - Shanghai China Air Lines - Hong Kong
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
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Description From A Portuguese Survivor

Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:31 am

I heard one of the portuguese survivors talking live from Hong Kong on our local television news. He said they were about 15 minutes waiting before landing, the weather was terrible. Just after he saw the runway lights the plane touch with one landing gear and the passengers started to applause but just after this the plane touched with the other landing gear and turned upside down. Many people didn't have the seat belts closed and fall causing many injuries. Then everybody were in panic causing more injuries while trying to get of the plane.
The plane slide upside down out of the runway, and this helped to stop it quickly.
This guy didn't see any fire on board and no smoke either untill he get of the plane.
These portuguese group was going to Macau via Hong Kong to participate in a medical congress.

Luis, Faro, Portugal
 
kaitak
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Jumping To Conclusions?

Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:33 am

Let's not jump to conclusions here. Firstly, while I did mention the report that the crew had reported an inflight fire, there is no independent confirmation of that yet. As for the Korean Air Shanghai crash, I didn't hear that fire had anything to do with it; however, just after the crash, Korean Air accused the North Koreans of being involved! The Chinese have now ruled this out.
If there was a fire, it wasn't necessarily the fault of the aircraft - careless smoker, illegal cargo or some other cause.
At the risk of being undiplomatic, the popular press is going to be having a field day over this - kicking both the MD11 and CAL. As aviation enthusiasts, who should know something about aircraft, we should hold back on making any JUDGMENTS about what actually happened.
And Cedarjet, the first incident you mentioned was actually China EASTERN near Shemya, south of Alaska. That was severe turbulence, not fire.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:39 am

I made no mention of those other incidents being caused by fire, just caused by the MD11. And I accept the airline on that Chinese incident was wrong, but it was Flight Int'l that said it was over the mainland. Still, it was a while ago that I read that. I think the KAL crash was either out-of-trim stab or the crago moved in flight. They were discussing an out-of-trim situation just before they went down, that much I am aware of. Interesting that CNN are saying the plane definitely declared an emergency before landing, but the survivor made no mention of a fire in the cabin.
 
kaitak
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RE: Mirage

Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:39 am

Further to the last few messages, this does appear to put the nail in the coffin of the fire on board rumour. It does raise questions about the professionalism of airline PR people in both the Shanghai and CAL incidents. One would have thought that the main responsibility of PR/Press people (not always the same, I know) would be to establish the facts and report what is actually known - and also to issue passenger lists and set up helplines.
Errors such as this can only compound perceptions about the airline and help no-one. It would be interesting to contrast this with what was said by AAL after Little Rock, or Swissair after SR 111.
 
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william
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CNN:Side Gusts Caused Aircraft To Flip

Mon Aug 23, 1999 6:29 am

Thats the reason of the crash CNN is giving. Gust of wind caused the aircraft to flip. If you want to debate,debate whether opposite lock turn on the yoke would have prevented the gust from lifting the wing in the first place.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 6:37 am

Sky News just reported that before landing the captain radioed for an immediate emergency landing because (and I quote Sky) "the cabin was ablaze". Although the fact that CNN are talking about the weather (which was undoubtedly the cause for the actual crash whatever the reason for attempting to land) only, and have no info about a pre-crash fire, makes me wonder if it is in fact true. Sky is the second biggest news network in the world and they are normally excellent.
 
L-188
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 10:31 am

Two thoughts on Public relations people at airlines and crash witnesses.

1. It is the job of the PR people to deflect as much blame for a crash as humanly possible. They are trying to save their airli...er jobs. Crashes can and have ruined airlines but if they can blame what happened on something else. You get the picture.

2. I have yet to hear of a single crash where there wasn't at least one witness to it that claims to have see the aircraft go down in a "Ball of Fire" ect. ect. ect. Of course these people usually have the better stories so they always are the ones the reporters single out to interview.
 
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flying_727
Posts: 383
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Stupid To Land In A Typhoon

Mon Aug 23, 1999 11:47 am

It's stupid to have planes land in a equivilent of a huricane. If they tell me to land in something like that i won't risk the lives of all the People on board. Thanks, Flying_727
 
Airbus A3XX
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 1:06 pm

To Cedarjet, CAL DOES fly from Hong Kong to Kula Lumpur, Bangkok and Manlia(Although will be cancelled in September). SO the plane's destination IS Hong Kong. Then the plane will fly to Taipei again. That's all I want to say.
 
pandora
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:32 am

China Airlines's Poor Safety Record

Mon Aug 23, 1999 2:41 pm

China Airlines' poor safety record is just another reason why we shall not ever fly with China Airlines.

Now looking at the no. of planes they have crashed in last five years, they include:

1x B747-409 and IT WAS BRAND NEW.
2x A300-600R and the both accidents were very similar.
and now a MD-11.

The pilots of the MD-11 should of go around and divert ast Macau, which many other planes did, although there were some successfully landed. However, I guess it's also up to the airlines's HQs to put pressure to make sure the planes arrive on time.

Also, this accident will be a major setback for the airline, and this accident will be in the history books as the first aircraft to crash in Hong Kong's new Airport.

While I was in Hong Kong, I saw a TV program which documented on CLK. It said that windshear levels are worse than Kai Tak, because of the surrounding moutains such as Lanatu mountains. The US aviation specialsts have helped CLK to develop a windshear aviodance system. So this crash cannot be blamed on the airport's functions.
 
pandora
Posts: 393
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How Many People Died Anyway?

Mon Aug 23, 1999 2:44 pm

Were there unfortunately enough to have any fatalities?
 
Guest

RE: Wind Shear

Mon Aug 23, 1999 3:50 pm

I think that wind shear is the mainly reason to make
the MD-11 crashed. The captain of the MD-11 must
not to landing under the bad weather.

It is lucky that there was no explosion in that time.
 
Guest

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 8:19 pm

I was at the 16R threshold (At Sydney Kingsford-Smith Airport, Australia) with Cathay111 as B-150 flew over our heads on Saturday morning, seconds before touching down on 16R. I also have photos but they haven't been developed.

I find it very freaky to know that the same aircraft that flew a few feet over my head is now a piece of burning wreckage. Luckily there were only a few deaths. I am still unsure why the pilot tried to land in the terrible conditions due to the cyclone. From reports, I heard there was a fire onboard the aircraft prior to landing and they asked the control tower to get landing clearance.

Steven
[email protected]
 
kaitak
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 8:31 pm

I have read reports that up to 200 people were hanging upside down in their seats for up to two hours after the crash, before being rescued. This rather gives demolishes the excuse of there being a fire on board, WHICH HAS NOW BEEN DISMISSED BY ATC.
As for the Sydney arrival, yes, that certainly would be quite unnerving. I was in Osaka in March and one of the aircraft I sw was a Korean MD 80, '7570. Less than a week later, it had run off the end of the runway at P'ohang and was written off. Luckily, no fatalities.
 
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F-WWKH
Topic Author
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RE: Again Freddy

Mon Aug 23, 1999 8:37 pm

i'm sorry but you must understand I was a little upset immediately after the news, especially as media reported "...315 passengers onboard ...200 able to escape.." which left the conclusion the remaining perished...
 
kaitak
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Mon Aug 23, 1999 8:46 pm

Just watching ITN News here. "Investigators are now examining whether or not the location of the airport had anything to do with the crash".
Well, it's a bit late now guys, having spent a few billion on it.
The real tragedy of the crash is that so many people predicted that something like this would happen - not necessarily to CAL or an MD11, but to anyone.
(Incidentally, the report also refers to reports of many people being left upside down "for hours" after the incident - hardly gels with reports of acft. being ablaze on approach).
 
Guest

Grim Image Of Aftermath; Pax Are Lucky!

Tue Aug 24, 1999 12:09 am

This is my first look at the scene and I am stunned. Considering the number of survivors, I imagined something much less dramatic. It is a truly sad scene, yet anyone who survived that is very fortunate!


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Cable TV HongKong

 
kaitak
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Grim Image Of Aftermath; Pax Are Lucky!

Tue Aug 24, 1999 12:39 am

Just read a report on PPRuNET; apparently, the first officer is placing the blame squarely on the captain. If this is true, it will certainly focus attention on CAL's cockpit resource management and it will be interesting to hear the CVR tapes, as the aircraft was on finals.

Remember the Korean Air A300 crash at Cheju; the Canadian captain and Korean F/O were almost fighting each other as the aircraft came in to land?
 
Boeing 777-400
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 9:39 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 1:16 am

easy kai tak dont be so snotty because the rules are to not be hostile
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 1:19 am


Do you remember a few days ago the topic about Alitalia landings in Kai Tak? Well just for you to know, the pilot of the Mandarin Airways MD11 was infact italian! Simple coincidence? Perhaps not!!!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 1:46 am

There is one other thing I can think of when I look at that picture of the wreck.

As it has been pointed out. It didn't burn. Usually there is only one reason why a airliner would wreck and not burn. I haven't heard anything about the fuel situation on that aircraft. Anybody else heard anything?
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
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RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 2:55 am


Good point L-188! The plane was almost with NO FUEL when it landed, but I also think that due to the extreme adverse weather conditions the fire couldn´t burn, lots of water, mud and wet grass, but adding the NO FUEL effect the passengers were extremely lucky!!!
 
Guest

Cedarjet

Tue Aug 24, 1999 2:59 am

You don't know for certain wether there was fire onboard before the crash landing, and in case there was, you don't know what caused it, so maybe it's a bit early to jump to conclusions - and you have some gull calling the MD-11 a piece of crap considering the lack of information so far. As for landing instability, I think any plane is going to be a bit unstable after touching down with a wing first don't you think? And I think the fact that the plane did touch ground at a 15 degree roll angle speaks more for the pilot than the MD-11 itself.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8994
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

MD11 (the Contributor And The Aircraft)

Tue Aug 24, 1999 4:03 am

You have to admit that this accident is identical to the FedEx one at Newark. I don't know of any other airliner that can do a 180 degree roll between landing bounces, and the MD11 has now done it twice. A 747 would never roll upside down no matter how hard it came down one on side first. I stand by my original statement: the MD11 is a piece of crap.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 4:13 am

Oh come on guys, let's hold off on the "piece of crap" business. Also, while I did raise the topic of the Alitalia landings at Kai Tak, I think it would be most unfair to label all Italian pilots as incompetent. As I said in my earlier comment, the CVR tape should tell us a lot about the working relationship between the captain and F/O.
Also, 777-400, I didn't think I was being "snotty", but if I came across that way, sincerest apologies!
 
freddy
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:09 am

RE: Crash At Hong Kong

Tue Aug 24, 1999 4:25 am

A rather interesting piece of video displaying the crash scene and a few landings during the 22nd can be found here

On the "Md11 crap" issue, I agree it's too early to blame the aircraft.

Freddy
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: MD-11 Wings Attachments

Tue Aug 24, 1999 8:45 am

I find this information in a email group I subscribe. I'm quoting since english is not my natural language.

"The crash sequence in this case bears similarities to the Fedex MD-11 which also flipped upside down on landing at Newark when a wing failed after striking the ground hard.
On October 31, 1992 Dutch magazine Vrij Nederland reported about the possible problems regarding Douglas C-17 and MD-11 attachments of the wings to the fuselage. An American Airlines executive is said to have
written a letter to McDonnell Douglas on September 28, 1992 (a month prior to the delivery of B-150)., saying he had serious doubts abut the safety of the MD-11 wing attachments.

The same plane, B-150, was involved in an incident on December 7, 1992 when it departed controlled flight 20mls E of Japan and sustained damage to the left and right outboard elevator skin assemblies, portions of which separated from the airplane. Probable cause was "the light control force characteristics of the MD-11 airplane in high altitude cruise flight. The upset was induced by a moderate lateral gust and was exacerbated by excessive control deflections. Contributing to the incident was a lack of pilot training specific to the recovery from high altitude, high speed upsets in the MD-11."

Source:
Mark Stephenson; Commercial Jet Aircraft Census by Bill Harms; CNN, BBC, South China Morning Post

Luis, Faro, Portugal
 
Boeing 777-400
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 9:39 am

RE: MD-11 Wings Attachments

Tue Aug 24, 1999 11:59 am

why arent we seeing this crash in the news very often? our local news didnt show it once throughout the past 2 days and i saw it once on CNN
 
pandora
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:32 am

Clk's Geographic Location.

Tue Aug 24, 1999 2:54 pm

A Hongkers geographer said in a Chinese newspaper today, that CLK's windhear levels were among the world's highest. Although the crash is partly blamed on pilot's judjment, I suppose CLK's crappy location is also to blame. During the last moments of the landing, passengers said there were smoke...

Could this be a repeat of the Swissair MD-11 disaster?...
 
kaitak
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: MD11

Tue Aug 24, 1999 3:18 pm

On the subject of the wing attachment, in both cases, the wing of the aircraft was effectively rammed into the ground; okay, this has happened twice on the MD11, but in both cases, nearly all occupants escaped. Let's face it, 300 got out of this. If the wing attachment had NOT failed, the aircraft might well have somersaulted, much like the DC10 in Sioux City, with much worse casualties. I wonder if the MD11's wing is designed to sever under certain limits?
As for fire, there was indeed fire. The No2 engine exploded and flames spread down the right side of the fuselage AFTER the crash. There is no firm evidence of a connection with the SR111 crash.
Finally, an error on my part. I said earlier in the debate that the plane came down on 7R; it was in fact 25L. (I took the earlier report from PPRuNET. Oops!)

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