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FoxtrotSierra
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Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:14 pm

My question is not really KLM's reason for flying the 737, but rather why they're the only one. BA, AF, and LH exclusively use the A320 on short-haul, but KL is the exception. Compared to the balance of A320/737 in the states, Europe heavily favors the A320. The 737 is a rare sight in Europe anywhere besides AMS (relative to the A320), what factors swayed KL to the 737?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:21 pm

Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.
 
F27500
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:22 pm

SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.
 
Eurowingsa320
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:29 pm

There are a few 737NG in sevice with European airlines such as Ryanair and Norwegian and others but hardly any airlines have 737max aircraft on order compared to the a320neo in Europe
 
tomkell92
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:43 pm

Quite a few legacy and "big" airlines in Europe using 737's:

KLM
Turkish Airlines
Aeroflot
SAS
Air Europa
LOT Polish Airlines
Ukraine International
Luxair
AirBaltic

Plus, you'll soon be able to add Icelandair to that list as well.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _in_Europe (removing any LCC's)
https://www.planespotters.net/
Tom
 
godsbeloved
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:43 pm

Personally I believe KLM is leaning towards Boeing because Dutch aviation industry gets many export orders from the USA.
 
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albertocsc
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:53 pm

Tarom is also flying 737s. The -300, -700 and recently added two -800s. They also have the A318 and ATRs.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:03 pm

godsbeloved wrote:
Personally I believe KLM is leaning towards Boeing because Dutch aviation industry gets many export orders from the USA.


They also deliver to Airbus and others. And what has a business decision to add a particular fleet has to do with another unrelated business which happens to be incorporated in the same country? Don't get this argument. I think KLM has a better relationship with Boeing than with Airbus, although they have had a better relationship with Douglas and McDonnell Douglas, flying almost all the models of these companies.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arniepie
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:06 pm

Also the TUI group is a 100+ 737 NG user and has about 70 MAX's coming in
[edit post]
 
factsonly
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:10 pm

KLM operating B737s has everything to do with their mid-1980's decision to replace their Douglas DC9-30s.

At the time several European legacy carriers needed to replace the DC9-30, among them KL, SR, SK, IB, YU and AZ with large fleets.

Many of the traditional Douglas operators selected the MD80 series and Boeing was determined to turn one or two of them into a B737 operator, so Boeing offered unbeatable prices for the aircraft.

So KLM was one of the few airlines (YU being another), which made the step from DC9-15/30 to B737-300/400.

 
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vanguard737
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:16 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...
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MalevTU134
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:27 pm

vanguard737 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...

Showing that his assumption is wrong is now nitpicking? And Russia and Turkey are not Europe? In which continent do those "many people" think that SU's and TK's hubs are, then?
After the two posts you reply to, there are other posts showing that more than half a dozen LEGACY carriers have 737 fleets. But, yeah...we are just nitpicking...
Another question for you: Why is AA the only US operator using two engines on their 737s? Please don't tell me that I'm factually wrong, I'll tell you that you are nitpicking.. ;)
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IADCA
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:30 pm

vanguard737 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...


One obvious point that relates to AF in particular is that the government of France has a substantial shareholding in both Airbus and in AF and there is a longtime A320 production facility at TLS. Similarly, the German government had a substantial shareholding in LH when it first ordered the A320, which has a large production facility at XFW. Doesn't explain the BA fleet decisions (where the A320 family was brought in after full privatization), but it is a possible thumb on the scale in some cases.
 
fpetrutiu
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:44 pm

What constitutes a LEGACY carrier in OP's view? Turkish, Aeroflot, TAROM, LOT, Air Baltic are legacy carriers in my mind.
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godsbeloved
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
godsbeloved wrote:
Personally I believe KLM is leaning towards Boeing because Dutch aviation industry gets many export orders from the USA.


They also deliver to Airbus and others. And what has a business decision to add a particular fleet has to do with another unrelated business which happens to be incorporated in the same country? Don't get this argument. I think KLM has a better relationship with Boeing than with Airbus, although they have had a better relationship with Douglas and McDonnell Douglas, flying almost all the models of these companies.
Politics my friend... Yes I live in Holland, and yes they do business with other manufacturers. Yet the importance of the aviation industry is such that American manufacturers will remain the prime suppliers for Dutch airlines.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-C9000 met Tapatalk
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:48 pm

Luxair as well! Albeit small.
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Dutchy
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:50 pm

godsbeloved wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
godsbeloved wrote:
Personally I believe KLM is leaning towards Boeing because Dutch aviation industry gets many export orders from the USA.


They also deliver to Airbus and others. And what has a business decision to add a particular fleet has to do with another unrelated business which happens to be incorporated in the same country? Don't get this argument. I think KLM has a better relationship with Boeing than with Airbus, although they have had a better relationship with Douglas and McDonnell Douglas, flying almost all the models of these companies.
Politics my friend... Yes I live in Holland, and yes they do business with other manufacturers. Yet the importance of the aviation industry is such that American manufacturers will remain the prime suppliers for Dutch airlines.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-C9000 met Tapatalk


Fine I'll bite, how do you see that working?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:13 pm

KLM were until recently a major Fokker user, supporting the local manufacturer, they are also a major Embraer user. As an established 737 operator, post DC-9 era as explained above, I can't imagine why an expanded 737 fleet wouldn't make sense, especially given the demise of the local player's product.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:22 pm

Eurowingsa320 wrote:
There are a few 737NG in sevice with European airlines such as Ryanair and Norwegian and others but hardly any airlines have 737max aircraft on order compared to the a320neo in Europe


I'm not sure I would describe Ryanair's fleet of 737s as "a few". They have 411 in service (to put this quantity in context BA's + AF's fleet of A32x aircraft is only 250 in total).
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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vanguard737
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:26 pm

IADCA wrote:
vanguard737 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...


One obvious point that relates to AF in particular is that the government of France has a substantial shareholding in both Airbus and in AF and there is a longtime A320 production facility at TLS. Similarly, the German government had a substantial shareholding in LH when it first ordered the A320, which has a large production facility at XFW. Doesn't explain the BA fleet decisions (where the A320 family was brought in after full privatization), but it is a possible thumb on the scale in some cases.


That makes sense. Thanks for the productive feedback!

MalevTU134 wrote:
Showing that his assumption is wrong is now nitpicking? And Russia and Turkey are not Europe? In which continent do those "many people" think that SU's and TK's hubs are, then? After the two posts you reply to, there are other posts showing that more than half a dozen LEGACY carriers have 737 fleets. But, yeah...we are just nitpicking... Another question for you: Why is AA the only US operator using two engines on their 737s? Please don't tell me that I'm factually wrong, I'll tell you that you are nitpicking..


His assumption is not wrong. Legacy EU carriers that DO NOT operate 737s:

TAP Air Portugal
Iberia
British Airways
Aer Lingus
Air France
Lufthansa
Alitalia
Austrian
Finnair
Czech Airlines
Air Malta

Air Baltic is retiring by 2020.
Luxair has six 737s...


Many people would consider Turkey to be in Western Asia with he very small exception of East Thrace. Russia is a transcontinental country whose European portion is small relative to the rest of the country. By your definition, Petropavlovsk-Vladivostok would be an intra-european flight. :roll:

Lastly, the definition of "legacy" is admittedly open to debate, but the fact that all 737s have two engines is not. So your half-tempt at humor/proving me wrong is moot from the beginning...
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Mortyman
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:07 pm

vanguard737 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...



Both KLM and SAS are LEGACIES
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:10 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:
What constitutes a LEGACY carrier in OP's view? Turkish, Aeroflot, TAROM, LOT, Air Baltic are legacy carriers in my mind.

I'm old enough to remember when legacy carriers were pretty much the only airlines in operation. :old:
Of course, that doesn't mean that the definition cannot be twisted to suit a modern purpose, but that aside here is my two cents.

Air Baltic - not a legacy carrier. I remember when the only airline operating in those countries was AEROFLOT.

Turkish - yes, technically it has a long history. But the airline you see today is NOT the same beast at all.
Proof?
In 1983, Air France's golden jubilee, their workforce numbered more than 34,000, its fleet about 100 jet aircraft, incl 33 747s
AF now has 225 aircraft, and 84,000 employees, representing legacy carrier type organic growth.
In contrast THY or Turkish ended the 80's decade with 32 aircraft (A310, B727, DC-9) and 8,500 employees.
Today they have a whopping 320 aircraft, most of them larger capacity than the aircraft listed for 1989, and 27,500 employees.
That is not legacy carrier growth; that is 80% new airline, using the old airline's colours.

TAROM is a strange case; today it has 23 aircraft, and from what I recall that number is considerably less than it boasted back in the 70's when they flew a glorious mix of BAC1-11, Ilyushin Il-18, Il-62, Tu-154, B707, DC-10, and Antonov An-24. And yes, all seven types could be seen operating into the UK. Happy days! They seem to be a legacy carrier that has been left behind. And with only 10 B737, citing them at the core of your argument seems a little desperate.

LOT are another legacy carrier that also seem to be treading water. Their current fleet of 54 a/c include a majority of lightweights (many less than 100 seats) such as CRJ9, Q400, E170, E175 and E195. This compares with a historic fleet of Il-18, Il-62, Tu-134, Tu-154 mainline, plus An-24s by the dozen.
Again, today's paltry 7 B737 doesn't make for a strong argument.

I agree that the OP was wrong to claim KLM as the only legacy carrier with 737s, but the truth isn't a million miles different to that.
And if Baltic counts as a legacy carrier after a whole 22 years in operation, then you can send me off to graze the green pastures with the other dinosaurs. :old: .
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:12 pm

vanguard737 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
vanguard737 wrote:




Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...


One obvious point that relates to AF in particular is that the government of France has a substantial shareholding in both Airbus and in AF and there is a longtime A320 production facility at TLS. Similarly, the German government had a substantial shareholding in LH when it first ordered the A320, which has a large production facility at XFW. Doesn't explain the BA fleet decisions (where the A320 family was brought in after full privatization), but it is a possible thumb on the scale in some cases.


That makes sense. Thanks for the productive feedback!

MalevTU134 wrote:
Showing that his assumption is wrong is now nitpicking? And Russia and Turkey are not Europe? In which continent do those "many people" think that SU's and TK's hubs are, then? After the two posts you reply to, there are other posts showing that more than half a dozen LEGACY carriers have 737 fleets. But, yeah...we are just nitpicking... Another question for you: Why is AA the only US operator using two engines on their 737s? Please don't tell me that I'm factually wrong, I'll tell you that you are nitpicking..


His assumption is not wrong. Legacy EU carriers that DO NOT operate 737s:

TAP Air Portugal
Iberia
British Airways
Aer Lingus
Air France
Lufthansa
Alitalia
Austrian
Finnair
Czech Airlines
Air Malta

Air Baltic is retiring by 2020.
Luxair has six 737s...


Many people would consider Turkey to be in Western Asia with he very small exception of East Thrace. Russia is a transcontinental country whose European portion is small relative to the rest of the country. By your definition, Petropavlovsk-Vladivostok would be an intra-european flight. :roll:

Lastly, the definition of "legacy" is admittedly open to debate, but the fact that all 737s have two engines is not. So your half-tempt at humor/proving me wrong is moot from the beginning...


The most common definition of a 'legacy' carrier is one which is not a LCC or ULCC... by which definition, as tomkell92 points out, there is a list of European legacy carriers that DO operate B737s almost as long as your list of those that do not. Air Baltic may be retiring theirs in 2020, and Luxair may only have six, but both are legacy carriers, both are European and both are currently operating B737s. TK's main base, Istanbul, is considered to be on the European continent, as are two of SU's (Moscow and St Petersburg), so I don't see that they can't make the cut as well. So the OP's 'assumption' that KL is the only European legacy carrier operating B737s is, indeed, flawed (even without TK and SU).

However, I believe KL is currently a B737 operator for a variety of reasons, including the 'history' that the B737 replaced the DC9 at KL. Clearly, on balance, KL decided back then that the B737 was the most suitable aircraft for their needs and, presumably, the offer they received from Boeing was a good one. Once an airline chooses either the B737 or the A320, that typically locks them into that 'family' of aircraft for a long period of time because switching costs a lot of time and money in retraining crews and engineering, building up parts stores, working through regulatory requirements, etc. That's not to say airlines don't switch, they do - look at MI, even BA, LH and AF (long and drawn out as their transitions were!). It's also not to say that airlines don't operate both types concurrently (SK, SU, TK, DL, UA, AA, CZ, MU, etc.).

There are, of course, other factors in deciding which type an airline chooses - for example, both QF and VA have tended to lean towards B737 for their mainline operations partly because many non-major city airports in Australia (like Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Broome, those kinds of places) charge (or have charged) landing fees based on the MTOW of the aircraft (where, obviously, the B737 has an advantage). Others have A320s because they can containerise the cargo, or because the range might be slightly longer, or the slightly wider cabin is more comfortable on longer sectors, or because they operate alongside other Airbus types.
 
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vanguard737
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:17 pm

Mortyman wrote:
vanguard737 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


F27500 wrote:
SAS has 737s .. so does Aeroflot.

BA, AF and LH all did up until recently.



Instead of nitpicking the OP maybe someone with actual knowledge on the subject could...I don't know...answer the question? It seems fairly valid to me. After all, many people wouldn't consider Russia and Turkey "European" to begin with, so with the exception of SAS and LOT, the OP is right than no LEGACY Euro carriers have the 737 anymore and some never had them at all. So there must be some reason why it is different at KLM...



Both KLM and SAS are LEGACIES


Yes...they are. Which is why I said exactly that in my original post. So...?
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vanguard737
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:20 pm

F27500 wrote:
vanguard737 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

One obvious point that relates to AF in particular is that the government of France has a substantial shareholding in both Airbus and in AF and there is a longtime A320 production facility at TLS. Similarly, the German government had a substantial shareholding in LH when it first ordered the A320, which has a large production facility at XFW. Doesn't explain the BA fleet decisions (where the A320 family was brought in after full privatization), but it is a possible thumb on the scale in some cases.


That makes sense. Thanks for the productive feedback!

MalevTU134 wrote:
Showing that his assumption is wrong is now nitpicking? And Russia and Turkey are not Europe? In which continent do those "many people" think that SU's and TK's hubs are, then? After the two posts you reply to, there are other posts showing that more than half a dozen LEGACY carriers have 737 fleets. But, yeah...we are just nitpicking... Another question for you: Why is AA the only US operator using two engines on their 737s? Please don't tell me that I'm factually wrong, I'll tell you that you are nitpicking..


His assumption is not wrong. Legacy EU carriers that DO NOT operate 737s:

TAP Air Portugal
Iberia
British Airways
Aer Lingus
Air France
Lufthansa
Alitalia
Austrian
Finnair
Czech Airlines
Air Malta

Air Baltic is retiring by 2020.
Luxair has six 737s...


Many people would consider Turkey to be in Western Asia with he very small exception of East Thrace. Russia is a transcontinental country whose European portion is small relative to the rest of the country. By your definition, Petropavlovsk-Vladivostok would be an intra-european flight. :roll:

Lastly, the definition of "legacy" is admittedly open to debate, but the fact that all 737s have two engines is not. So your half-tempt at humor/proving me wrong is moot from the beginning...



OK. Mr. Crossing Guard ... drop your snarky tone ... this is just a discussion. No need to get so heated.
And YOU are the one that has it wrong ... Russia and Turkey ARE part of Europe (even though they also cross into Asia) ...and their airlines (SU, TK) ARE legacy, like or not . and SK is also a legacy carrier .. fully European, too ....using your standards.

So tone it down a little. You're not right.


How exactly am I not right lol? You literally reinforced everything I said in my original post...ie: PARTS of Turkey and Russia are in Europe and SK is indeed a legacy. And not once did I say Aeroflot or Turkish are not legacy carriers in their own right...
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rbavfan
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:22 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


Yes but only KLM operates only 737 and no A319/320/321 series in the legacy category. RyanAir does as well, but they are not a Legacy carrier.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:25 pm

Crying out loud, a simple question turned into a heated argument. Shame this site went from pay to free.... There seems to be a sense of "I know more than you so you're wrong" mentality to some people on this site and people that get stubborn when called out.

An answer to the OP - I reckon mainly politics are at play, keeping France, UK and germany happy with Airbus orders seems like good business for most countries/airlines in the EU. KLM and the dutch have ties in trade with the US so a boeing fleet might work better with them. At the end of the day the either the 737 or A320 would suit any airline in Europe.
 
DWC
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:49 pm

tomkell92 wrote:
Quite a few legacy and "big" airlines in Europe using 737's:
KLM
Turkish Airlines
Aeroflot
SAS
Air Europa
LOT Polish Airlines
Ukraine International
Luxair
AirBaltic


As others have pointed out, AIR BALTIC IS NOT A LEGACY.
1. was founded in 1995,
2. is a good LCC,
3. is a small airline
I flew them a lot when commuting to & from the three baltic states, I am glad they are ditching their 733s & 735s for the C-SERIES 300, of which they are the LAUNCH CUSTOMER !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirBaltic
 
AirInterCRV
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:55 pm

let's try not to be too obnoxious here - I assume that the original poster, by "European legacy carrier", meant "airline part of a legacy EU big 3 group". In which case KLM is indeed the only one to fly 737s (with Transavia - LCC but part of AF/KL)

These are only guesses, but I would reckon that:

- AF and LH: possible "political" influence at a time when Airbus was a whole different animal than what it is now (and wasn't even a company in its own right) - orders from state-owned flag carriers were "encouraged" to jumpstart the program, à la A300/310). In particular, AF might have used this as a political counterweight to its decision to make the 777 the backbone of its widebody fleet.

- the same might be true for IB (CASA involvement into the program). Maybe Boeing offered sweet deals to large operators of DC-9 derivatives - but apparently IB didn't buy in.

- BA: some people here consider they're immune to political interference. I don't know much about this - but in addition to the British-built wings, the A320 family used to be the only narrowbody option if you wanted to have some RR-content, which BA tends to favor, into your engines.

- KL: none of the above applies.

Today the situation is quite different, as fleet choices are made at AF/KL level. Maybe the group is quite happy to keep the two subfleets above critical size in order to maintain dialogue with both OEMs, and to be able to market MRO expertise on all CFM56 variants.

(and: no clue about LX, OS, SN and EI)
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:22 am

rbavfan wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


Yes but only KLM operates only 737 and no A319/320/321 series in the legacy category. RyanAir does as well, but they are not a Legacy carrier.


LOT is not a legacy carrier? An airline has to have existed since before 1929 to qualify, in your opinion!? Okay!

DWC wrote:
AIR BALTIC IS NOT A LEGACY.


Admittedly, I did some research into the definition of 'legacy carrier' since my previous post and all I came up with was [US] airlines which were operating interstate routes pre-liberalisation in that country. Nothing reliable from outside of the US context. In the US definition, it does distinguish between legacies and LCCs in much the same way as I did in my earlier post which was based on the Australian context, and having studied airline markets and worked in the industry for nearly 15 years. Granted, then, the definition of legacy carrier is a bit wishy-washy, but I would argue that Air Baltic is no less a legacy carrier than the intra-European operations of the likes of BA, LH, SK, etc. based on your points 2 and 3. I'm happily sitting on the fence as far as your point 1 goes :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:35 am

vanguard737 wrote:
Russia is a transcontinental country whose European portion is small relative to the rest of the country.

Yet when you consider where the people are, Russia is largely a European country:

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zeke
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:52 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
My question is not really KLM's reason for flying the 737, but rather why they're the only one. BA, AF, and LH exclusively use the A320 on short-haul, but KL is the exception. Compared to the balance of A320/737 in the states, Europe heavily favors the A320. The 737 is a rare sight in Europe anywhere besides AMS (relative to the A320), what factors swayed KL to the 737?


BA, AF, and LH all used to operate 737s. There were over 50 airlines that switched from the 737OG to A320s mainly due to the A320 being marginally more efficient at the time. Boeing then brought out the 737NG however for many of the European airlines they had already made their decision to switch. I think the KL decision was made at a later time. LH does still operate a couple of 737s to fly from FRA to PNQ, it is under the private air brand.

I should add another factor that has come into play in the past with developed nations that have comprehensive workplace safety rules. Many of the baggage loaders on 737s were reporting lower back, hip, and knee injuries from working inside the cargo hold. This was costing airlines significant sums in lost productivity and rehabilitation. A simply fix was available, containers with the A320 series which can be loaded safer resulting in fewer injuries.

The notion that LH/AF buy Airbus because they are European, or Airbus is built in their back yard, if you look at the current and historical fleet list for AF and LH they have operated 737/747/767/777. IB is the only large legacy airline I can think of that has always has an airbus fleet.
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cschleic
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:54 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Crying out loud, a simple question turned into a heated argument. Shame this site went from pay to free.... There seems to be a sense of "I know more than you so you're wrong" mentality to some people on this site and people that get stubborn when called out.

An answer to the OP - I reckon mainly politics are at play, keeping France, UK and germany happy with Airbus orders seems like good business for most countries/airlines in the EU. KLM and the dutch have ties in trade with the US so a boeing fleet might work better with them. At the end of the day the either the 737 or A320 would suit any airline in Europe.


Could be true but the thing mentioned a couple of times, which seems to have been lost, is that BA, AF and LH (and others) did operate 737s in the past, it's just that they don't any longer. Could be politics, could be financing terms, could be the planes themselves, could be lots of reasons.
 
DWC
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:14 am

zeke wrote:
The notion that LH/AF buy Airbus because they are European, or Airbus is built in their back yard, if you look at the current and historical fleet list for AF and LH they have operated 737/747/767/777. IB is the only large legacy airline I can think of that has always has an airbus fleet.


They have been for a while yes, but IB has been flying way before Airbus even took off, they operated nearly all the MDD, L-1011 & Boeing line ups, 727s. 737s, 757s, 767s, all four 741, 742, 743, 744, as a kid I flew a 747-100, terrible service, has not improved one bit :banghead:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberia_(airline)#Current_fleet
Last edited by DWC on Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:15 am

zeke wrote:
IB is the only large legacy airline I can think of that has always has an airbus fleet.

How far back is the cut-off point?
If we limit things to the jet age, just to be sensible...
Sud-Aviation Caravelle
Douglas DC-8
Douglas DC-9
Boeing 747
Boeing 727-200
Douglas DC-10
Airbus A300

....and after that it gets a bit hazy; my memory isn't so good on recent stuff, but I believe there were some MD-87s and even some B757. :lol:
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zeke
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:26 am

I thought the IB 737s were actually Viva Air ?
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N62NA
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:47 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Why is AA the only US operator using two engines on their 737s? Please don't tell me that I'm factually wrong, I'll tell you that you are nitpicking.. ;)


Uh.... ALL operators of the 737 use 2 engines. One on the left wing and one on the right wing.
 
n729pa
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 am

At the end of the day, most major airlines in Europe have at some time for one reason or another operated the 737.

Even the likes of AY (all be it a Freighter for a some years, it bore the name and had 2 engines so it counts), OS (courtesy I believe of Mr Lauda), FI, SN (Sabena), TP, IB (I recall them at LHR so they did operate them in their own right perhaps alongside Viva), OA, JU, KM, MA, BD, etc

BA - don't forget the first BAs A320's originally came from BCal

Probably easier to mention those that didn't have the 737 - ie AZ and SR/LX, CY

What about Air Inter - what did they have before the A320? I cant remember Caravelles and Mecures?

There are some interesting ones like SK combine the A320 family and 3 versions of the 737, but then that doesn't make them unique.

KLM, if we got back to when they ordered the 300, other carriers like Aer Lingus, Sabena, Icelandair, JAT, British Midland, TAP, Olympic also ordered the 300/400 and not the A320. As time processed for a variety of reasons, some moved over to the A320 family, some never did. KLM was one of them, Icelandair another.

I couldn't imagine an Alitalia 737 or a Swiss one, but then I never thought I'd see an Air Canada one either.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:47 am

In the end it mostly boils down to the usage of LD3-45s or not.

Most legacies did fly the 737 Classic and the A320 in mixed fleets for some time. When it as time to retire the classics it was a decision if the 737NG offered so much advantage that you wanted to keep going with 2 subfleets or that you wanted to go back to no containers at all for single aisle ops.
 
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Ty134A
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:22 am

For an airline opersting a hub, and with high laubor costs, the 737 makes no sense. Airlines try to reduce ground time, and the 737 only operates as a bulk aircraft, whereas the a319 can take 4, the a320 7 and the a321 10 type AKH containers. Those containers allow to use the aircraft way better than a bulk loaded 737. Loads are prepsred in advance with containers and in less that 15 minutes you can offload and load an a321 to its maximum capacity, including cargo and mail - with 3 workers. A fully loaded 737 needs tripple the time and at least 8 workers to offload and load both holds at the same time. In some cases you need to wait for passengers to be off the 737 for unloading, due to its tendency to fall on her butt. The a320 has the same problem with some operators, but unloading three containers takes 2 minutes, unloading 130 bags from the forward belly of a 737 takes 15 minutes at least!

SU is the best example for utilizing the 737 snd the a320srs in the best way possible. They use tbe 737 on routs withblittle cargo and low airport infrastricture. and they operate the a320srs to airports where they can be used to full capacity with containers and pallets.

One main argument gor the a320 with containers is, that an airline can offload hundreds of bags for sorting for the connection flight within no time. The a320 is ten times as fast as a 737, offering lower connection times, thus a better product and less cost fom misshandled bags.

BA, LH (ex 319), AF, LX, SU, TP, AZ, EI, IB, MS (321 only), OS, AB (some a320, now HG on a321), RJ, all use AKH containers

Oh, and in some cases the containers are loaded directly from one plane to the other...
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mjoelnir
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:16 am

If European airlines buy the A320 family rather than the 737 it will have technical and financial reasons, but not political. European airlines have not been shy about buying Boeing as fleets of 767 and 777 have shown. Turkish and Russian airlines are counted with European in all statistics regarding aviation, so it is pretty arbitrary to cut TK and SU out of the discussion regarding legacy airlines.

Posters here just have to accept that an A320 family aircraft is in most cases the better technical solution for an European airline compared with the 737.
Foremost we have, as Ty134A mentioned, the possibility of containers on the A320 family aircraft. No airline having moved to containers in Europe will move back to simple bulk loading. The A318 did not allow containers, perhaps an additional reason it never sold well, even not to airlines using other A320 family aircraft.
Than there is the better field performance of any A320family aircraft compared with same size 737.
And last not least there is the A321, unrivaled in its combination of capacity and performance for a wide range of uses.
 
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MD80
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:44 am

So KLM was one of the few airlines (YU being another), which made the step from DC9-15/30 to B737-300/400.


It´s also interestingto note that KLM decided to replace their DC-9s with two different types of aircraft: The Boeing 737 and Fokker 100. British Midland comes also in my mind. BD were very pleased with their DC-9s and even after the delivery of their first Boeing 737-300, the airline added at least three (ex-Austrian Airlines) DC-9-32s in 1990. The Boeing 737 replaced parts of the DC-9-fleet while the remaining ones were replaced by a mix of Fokker 70/100s.

I thought the IB 737s were actually Viva Air ?


IIRC. Iberia operated leased Boeing 737-300s and MD-83s until the first of 24 MD-87s were delivered in March/April 1990.

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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:13 am

rbavfan wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Eeh?? SK, SU and TK all have 737 fleets.


Yes but only KLM operates only 737 and no A319/320/321 series in the legacy category. RyanAir does as well, but they are not a Legacy carrier.


I'd say Air Europa is a legacy airline operating only the 737 on their European flights. Air Europa never operated the A320-series.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:41 am

Don't forget KLM is rather conservative when it comes to replacing older aircraft. They try to get the maximum out of fully depreciated, paid off aircraft. The MD11 is one example, the 744 another (some of KL's 744 are retired with record numbers of cycles/flight hours).

KLM kept their last 737 classics 12 years after introducing their first 737NG's. So, while I know KL did consider the A320, the trade off of investing in the A320 and keeping two different fleets of A320 and 737 (or replacing 737s earlier than planned) versus some disadvantages of the 737 must have been in favor of keeping a 737 fleet.

This may change of course when AF/KL decides the outcome of their current RFP for replacing (part of) their narrowbody fleet next year. Personally, I'm hoping to see the A32x in KL's fleet, but I think Boeing made the right move to launch the 737MAX-10. It's an aircraft KL really needs IMO, without it KL very likely would have selected the A321 as a result of the lack of growth in slots at AMS.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:53 am

I think that the 'real' reason is that when KLM decided to dump their DC-9s around circa 1985, the A320 was just a twinkle in the eyes of the Toulouse gang, and so they went for the 733, which proved to be an exemplary bird for them. The rest is history: they've stayed with Boeing, and are happy by doing so.
It's worth remembering that in those days they placed a large order for A310s, so if the A320 had been available, who knows....
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:13 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I think that the 'real' reason is that when KLM decided to dump their DC-9s around circa 1985, the A320 was just a twinkle in the eyes of the Toulouse gang, and so they went for the 733, which proved to be an exemplary bird for them. The rest is history: they've stayed with Boeing, and are happy by doing so.
It's worth remembering that in those days they placed a large order for A310s, so if the A320 had been available, who knows....


Not only is it that Boeing offered them a great deal on the 737 back then, but that offer still stands. Based on the contract with Boeing signed back then, they still get a very good deal on those aircraft. That's the reason they still stick to the 737.

Also the KLM LCC daughter airline Transavia flies the 737. Not sure if those fall under the same contract, but I don't see Transavia switching to the A320. Even Transavia France, the Air France LCC daughter, flies the 737 eventhough Air France flies the A320. By the way, Transavia was an earlier user of the 737 than KLM. Where KLM operated the DC-9 Transavia operated the 737-200. Even a few times one of those Transavia 737-200s was leased out to KLM, so KLM had some experience with the 737 before they ordered them. But other than those leased from Transavia there have never been 737-200s operated by KLM.
 
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OA940
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:07 pm

TAROM, TUI, DY, Ryanair, LOT, SAS, Aeroflot, Turkish, Transavia, etc. Small chances of Aegean joining them if they choose the MAX.
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airbazar
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:13 pm

IADCA wrote:
One obvious point that relates to AF in particular is that the government of France has a substantial shareholding in both Airbus and in AF and there is a longtime A320 production facility at TLS. Similarly, the German government had a substantial shareholding in LH when it first ordered the A320, which has a large production facility at XFW. Doesn't explain the BA fleet decisions (where the A320 family was brought in after full privatization), but it is a possible thumb on the scale in some cases.

It's hard to ignore the political pressure indeed however there is a much simpler reason: timing.
The A320 series was launched at the absolute right time for fleet replacements, for most European legacy carriers. The 737NG came out almost 10 years AFTER the A320.
In the early 80's when the A320 was launched the U.S. was in a recession and U.S. carriers were adjusting to deregulation and hurting financially, and were in no position to renew their fleets.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:24 pm

Heaven forbid that the A320 is so succesfull because it is the better plane...No, no, no it is political pressure or timing or the ever so famous Airbus is giving them away for free...
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Why is KLM the only Euro legacy to fly the 737?

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:45 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Crying out loud, a simple question turned into a heated argument. Shame this site went from pay to free.... There seems to be a sense of "I know more than you so you're wrong" mentality to some people on this site and people that get stubborn when called out.

An answer to the OP - I reckon mainly politics are at play, keeping France, UK and germany happy with Airbus orders seems like good business for most countries/airlines in the EU. KLM and the dutch have ties in trade with the US so a boeing fleet might work better with them. At the end of the day the either the 737 or A320 would suit any airline in Europe.


I agree with everything except the politics. The 737 and A320 are both good at their jobs - small differences in airlines' circumstances and the deals offered by the OEMs over the years have led to the split as it currently stands. No big deal.
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