"Boeing, China Announce Airplane Sales During Presidential Trade Mission
Agreement covers 300 airplanes valued at more than $37 billion"

Have no details sorry.

Ruscoe

Details are slowly trickling out.

260 737s. 40 widebodies.

No detail yet on how many of these were previously announced orders.

And how many of these are new orders vs unidentified orders...

Trip or no trip, these deals would have been signed anyway. The Chinese hunger for new planes is big enough, they will order far more then 300 Boeing planes over the next couple of years.

I wonder if this time around we will be able to link this announcement directly to new orders. Not any unidentified order will be Chinese, and not every Chinese order will be part of this deal. We'll see.

This is going to be huge for Boeing.

Momo1435 wrote:

Trip or no trip, these deals would have been signed anyway. The Chinese hunger for new planes is big enough, they will order far more then 300 Boeing planes over the next couple of years.

I wonder if this time around we will be able to link this announcement directly to new orders. Not any unidentified order will be Chinese, and not every Chinese order will be part of this deal. We'll see.

- Quite right re the order, Trump has nothing to do with this order at all, they would have been ordered regardless. Just a PR exercise that dumb people will think Trump is great for generating this order.

As Jon Ostrower points out:

300 new airplanes for China, right? Not exactly. Some of these airplanes live today as already-announced airline commitments, some unidentified firm orders in the backlog, some firm identified jets and some future planned purchases for Chinese carriers.

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3519826945

Not only is @boeing China deal a historically big order, it's also historically vague.

https://twitter.com/AsiaJetWatch/status ... 1109964800

Big boost for Boeing, considering China's past I assume the widebody orders will all be current generation aircraft? AKA no 777X?

This announcement has something to do with Trump, the orders in itself not. For example, non of the 100+ 737 MAXs that will be delivered to China before the end of 2018 were ordered after Trump became president. China has been a large Boeing customer before Trump and will remain a large Boeing customer after Trump. They don't care who is in office, as long as they can buy planes.

I also don't agree with some sentiments that this announcement is historically vague, it's as vague as the couple of similar 'Chinese' announcements made over the last couple of years. Nothing historically about this announcement, just standard practise.

This will turn to a heated political back and forth in a minute. With little to no details on these orders (types, firm or commitment, existing or new), there's really not much to discuss as of the moment.

Whatever the politics, it's still a big headline for most of the readers back home and Trump can take all the credit. Not that different from past presidents.

Wonder what the headline will be next week in Dubai?

Amazing order ¡¡¡¡

Sad - I thought these forums were supposed to exclude politics. Very disappointed. When one professes a strong political opinion, they assume everyone thinks as they do or they must be idiots for having a different opinion.

The usual take home gift for US/European heads of state. And again it's a couple of different orders bundled up for maximum effect. Great for the manufacturers, this time for Boeing...

Ordering an aircraft is not like going to a fast food restaurant and ordering off a value meal! "I would like 300 aircraft please with a side of fries"

Not exactly a vote of confidence in the C919 when the one customer China can force to buy them (itself) goes for 260 B737s

Momo1435 wrote:

I also don't agree with some sentiments that this announcement is historically vague, it's as vague as the couple of similar 'Chinese' announcements made over the last couple of years. Nothing historically about this announcement, just standard practise.

Announcing commitments and unidentified orders is standard practice. This time however, there is no new order for 300 airplanes as that figure already includes previously announced deals.

KarelXWB wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

I also don't agree with some sentiments that this announcement is historically vague, it's as vague as the couple of similar 'Chinese' announcements made over the last couple of years. Nothing historically about this announcement, just standard practise.

Announcing commitments and unidentified orders is standard practice. This time however, there is no new order for 300 airplanes as that figure already includes previously announced deals.

But in 300.......100 is new......¿no?.......

Flyingabout wrote:

Not exactly a vote of confidence in the C919 when the one customer China can force to buy them (itself) goes for 260 B737s

As Boeing is setting up a 737 completion centre in China, it's quite obvious Chinese carriers will continue to order 737s.

I think Boeing and Airbus have protected themselves from the C919 by setting up narrowbody facilities in China.

rafflesking wrote:

Details are slowly trickling out.

260 737s. 40 widebodies.

No detail yet on how many of these were previously announced orders.

From Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-asia-china-deals/trumps-250-billion-china-miracle-adds-gloss-to-off-kilter-trade-idUSKBN1D90L2

“Interesting to see how many of those are past agreements/purchase orders repackaged. Beijing is a master of selling the same agreement 10 times,”

Bottom line is how many net new orders previously unannounced?


Faro

Great news for Boeing.
But hardly surprising.

"American / European leader visits China, massive Boeing / Airbus order ensues..."

What else is new?

China has a history of using airplane orders as a political tool for trade negotiations with European and American leaders. The question, as always, what concession was given to China in return.

It's always hard to tell, but in this case, it definitely seems like Trump's speech on China has changed a lot since his campaign days... From "Currency manipulator" to "My good friend Xi".

Anyway, let the speculation begin.

So far no-one has confirmed the breakdown of the order, we will need to wait for a Boeing statement otherwise all is mere speculation

This is good news for boeing - 300 jets is not to be sniffed at. We've go the Dubai Airshow next week, I wonder how many jets we'll see ordered there and are there any in the pipeline before the year end?

I expect we'll see orders from Emirates and the like. Previously Qatar Airways attended the show, correct in thinking they won't be attending given the tensions in the region?

Flyingabout wrote:

Not exactly a vote of confidence in the C919 when the one customer China can force to buy them (itself) goes for 260 B737s

The C919 already has 700+ orders, more than enough to get it established in production and service. 260 737s ordered for political gains isn't going to break the C919 program.

The vote of confidence will be seen in 5 to 10 years time, when the program has churned through the first few hundred deliveries.

VSMUT wrote:

Flyingabout wrote:

Not exactly a vote of confidence in the C919 when the one customer China can force to buy them (itself) goes for 260 B737s

The C919 already has 700+ orders, more than enough to get it established in production and service. 260 737s ordered for political gains isn't going to break the C919 program.

The vote of confidence will be seen in 5 to 10 years time, when the program has churned through the first few hundred deliveries.

It also remains to be seen how fast COMAC will be able to ramp up the production of the C919 after the 1st one is delivered. Before COMAC is able to match the current Boeing and Airbus 737 and A320 Chinese output all of these announced Boeing orders will already long been delivered.

frigatebird wrote:

log0008 wrote:

Big boost for Boeing, considering China's past I assume the widebody orders will all be current generation aircraft? AKA no 777X?

Very likely. I assume the 8x 77W for MU announced last month will be part of the 40 widebodies. And some 787-9s without doubt. I hope the 5x 747-8i for Air China previously announced (when the Chinese president visited the US, IIRC) will now be firm. But that's the heart talking, not the brain.

Of the latest generation aircraft, China has ordered just 787-8/787-9, no 787-10 or 777X (as they have ordered only the A350-900, no A350-1000 or A330neo). I wonder if China wants certain aircraft types to be certified first before any of their airlines can order? I really have no insight into this.

China seems to want aircraft now, not invest in something that hasn't even flown yet or has years of no delivery slots.

Based on the value of the order and the NB/WB breakdown, I assume the WB order will be 789..?

Flyingabout wrote:

Not exactly a vote of confidence in the C919 when the one customer China can force to buy them (itself) goes for 260 B737s

It is China, the place that can buy 737, A320s, AND C919 and still not necessarily have too many planes. The market is still growing, and it is definitely not a zero sum game (i.e. an order of 300 Boeings mean 300 less C919 order).

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3519826945

Might not be what it seems.

mcgreg wrote:

This is going to be huge for Boeing.

Not necessarily. This is largely politics and the deals aren’t binding. Is very common on high level trade visits to China - Beijing has the habit of restating the same deals and passing them off as new deals.

Basically they piled already existing and potential orders together to arrive at a big number to flatter the Presidents ego so he can say that he’s correcting a trade imbalance and claim it as a win. The deals do not have to go through.

“Interesting to see how many of those are past agreements/purchase orders repackaged. Beijing is a master of selling the same agreement 10 times,”

If unidentified orders fold into this one it is Boeing doing the double announcement., isn't it?

WIederling wrote:

“Interesting to see how many of those are past agreements/purchase orders repackaged. Beijing is a master of selling the same agreement 10 times,”

If unidentified orders fold into this one it is Boeing doing the double announcement., isn't it?

Boeing does not typically announce
unidentified orders. Posting it on their website is not announcing. Often times for these more political orders they have a little say in their actual announcement as well, it’s on the politicians.

The Asian market, China specifically is the real future! Good for Boeing, I always prefered them over Airbus for some reason!

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump ... SKBN1D91BZ

Check out the link!

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-asia-china-deals-boeing/boeing-signs-deal-to-sell-300-planes-worth-37-billion-to-china-idUSKBN1D91BZ

Check out the link!

It says:

State-run China Aviation Supplies, which leases planes to Chinese airlines, said the order was for 260 B-737s as well as 40 B777s and B787s. The breakdown between firm orders and non-binding commitments was not immediately available.

So, no 747-8i, so it seems.

Polot wrote:

WIederling wrote:

“Interesting to see how many of those are past agreements/purchase orders repackaged. Beijing is a master of selling the same agreement 10 times,”

If unidentified orders fold into this one it is Boeing doing the double announcement., isn't it?

Boeing does not typically announce
unidentified orders. Posting it on their website is not announcing. Often times for these more political orders they have a little say in their actual announcement as well, it’s on the politicians.

Ah, der Wurm windet sich.

publishing on a regular basis an order book with "unidentified entries" inclusive of reflections in the press
is "not announcing an order".... Do you really mean that?

One of the primary features of unidentifieds is getting double PR mileage out of them.
I do wonder when they have some squiggly idea on how to do it a third time.

WIederling wrote:

Polot wrote:

WIederling wrote:

If unidentified orders fold into this one it is Boeing doing the double announcement., isn't it?

Boeing does not typically announce
unidentified orders. Posting it on their website is not announcing. Often times for these more political orders they have a little say in their actual announcement as well, it’s on the politicians.

Ah, der Wurm windet sich.

publishing on a regular basis an order book with "unidentified entries" inclusive of reflections in the press
is "not announcing an order".... Do you really mean that?

One of the primary features of unidentifieds is getting double PR mileage out of them.
I do wonder when they have some squiggly idea on how to do it a third time.

Boeing is not releasing a press release every time they sign a UFO order. They can’t prevent aviation enthusiast/reporters from noticing and reporting on it.

Airbus does the exact same thing (eg that Ethiopian A350 “order” at the Paris Air show was firmed unidentified earlier this spring). Just last month Airbus signed 7 unknown A320neos. Boeing’s usually get more attention because they release new orders weekly and not monthly.

The release the orders as Unidentified because they have a duty to their shareholders to report firm orders, but the customer may not want to be identified yet for whatever reason. That is all.

The difference between a disclosure and an announcement should be clear to anyone, or most anyone. One is written quietly and one is accompanied by flashing disco lights and trumpets.

Polot wrote:

Airbus does the exact same thing. ..

That is all.

Apparently not.
Where Airbus still shows only a handful ....

Boeing seems to have started that process some years ago
when the occasional unidentified order started to bloom into 1/4th ... 1/3rd of orders newly shown
with about the same media echo that was again lavished on the order reveal ( usually without directly
mentioning the "not new but reveal" character.


Boeing is rather careful in doing these little things that boost their standing.
So I thing your quip has a place in the group of convoluted but false explanations.

WIederling wrote:

Polot wrote:

Airbus does the exact same thing. ..

That is all.

Apparently not.
Where Airbus still shows only a handful ....

Boeing seems to have started that process some years ago
when the occasional unidentified order started to bloom into 1/4th ... 1/3rd of orders newly shown
with about the same media echo that was again lavished on the order reveal ( usually without directly
mentioning the "not new but reveal" character.


Boeing is rather careful in doing these little things that boost their standing.
So I thing your quip has a place in the group of convoluted but false explanations.

Of course, it is all part of the ever looming Boeing conspiracy. One more thing to put on your wall as you work to unravel it. Nothing to do with possible differences in sales strategies in regards to when to actually firm LoI/MoUs (next thing you are going to tell me is that Airbus doesn’t wait to firm orders at air shows in publicity event, just their customers naturally do that and not Boeing’s). It is Boeing making up fake firm orders to “boost their standings”

dredgy wrote:

mcgreg wrote:

This is going to be huge for Boeing.

Not necessarily. This is largely politics and the deals aren’t binding. Is very common on high level trade visits to China - Beijing has the habit of restating the same deals and passing them off as new deals.

Basically they piled already existing and potential orders together to arrive at a big number to flatter the Presidents ego so he can say that he’s correcting a trade imbalance and claim it as a win. The deals do not have to go through.

How are these orders generally divided among Chinese carriers?

ahmetdouas wrote:

The Asian market, China specifically is the real future! Good for Boeing, I always prefered them over Airbus for some reason!

Meh...it'll be Airbus next time.

dwightm wrote:

Sad - I thought these forums were supposed to exclude politics. Very disappointed. When one professes a strong political opinion, they assume everyone thinks as they do or they must be idiots for having a different opinion.

Do you need some cheese to go with that whine?

Lilienthal wrote:

The usual take home gift for US/European heads of state. And again it's a couple of different orders bundled up for maximum effect. Great for the manufacturers, this time for Boeing...

dwightm wrote:

Sad - I thought these forums were supposed to exclude politics. Very disappointed. When one professes a strong political opinion, they assume everyone thinks as they do or they must be idiots for having a different opinion.

I agree, new orders, wide bodies, single aisle, that's what should be the body of the comments. China bought the planes because they needed them and not due to who visits the country.

MaverickM11 wrote:

dredgy wrote:

How are these orders generally divided among Chinese carriers?

I don’t know - I’m not aware of any specific aviation precedent, but I’ve been on the receiving end of this myself. China tends to make these announcements anytime a foreign leader comes along for trade talks.

A trade delegation to China once announced my company had signed a $50m contract with a Chinese partner, and the first I heard about it was when a journalist called my office for comment. We were still in very early negotiations with the Chinese company and the deal never eventuated. Wasted a whole day calling everyone in my company, everyone at the Chinese company and the government ministers who were on the delegation to find out if someone had actually signed a $50m deal.

I’m not saying Boeing won’t sell 300 planes to China - with Chinese aviation growth that’s probably inevitable - but look out in 3 or 5 years for another announcement of “400 new planes from Boeing” which includes the 300 mentioned today which already includes previous announcements/confirmations

frigatebird wrote:

log0008 wrote:

Big boost for Boeing, considering China's past I assume the widebody orders will all be current generation aircraft? AKA no 777X?

Very likely. I assume the 8x 77W for MU announced last month will be part of the 40 widebodies. And some 787-9s without doubt. I hope the 5x 747-8i for Air China previously announced (when the Chinese president visited the US, IIRC) will now be firm. But that's the heart talking, not the brain.

Of the latest generation aircraft, China has ordered just 787-8/787-9, no 787-10 or 777X (as they have ordered only the A350-900, no A350-1000 or A330neo). I wonder if China wants certain aircraft types to be certified first before any of their airlines can order? I really have no insight into this.

Quote, "5x 747-8i", might happen considering they may be delivered quickly.

Congrats to Boeing for this. Even though a lot is already announced, and that it's political PR.. that's normal and happens with all administrations.

Bloomberg weighs in...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... or-america

"...Boeing Co.’s $37 billion aircraft order consists mostly of previously agreed deals, according to officials with knowledge of the matter..."

To put this order in perspective Boeing deliveries to China:
2016: 126
2017 up to October: 126
(includes deliveries to Chinese Leasing companies with leases to non Chinese airlines but doesn't include deliveries to China via non Chinese Leasing companies)

With the current delivery rates these 300 "orders" will be delivered within 2 years. If you include the rate the deliveries increases it could even be just 1.5 years. With this in mind it's actually a rather small number. Especially considering that the current Chinese backlog at Boeing is much larger then 300. For example China is easily responsible for over 200 of the current year net orders.

I think we should simply see this announcement as a reminder that China buys a lot of Boeing planes and that it will continue to do so, with the 300 just thrown in as a random large number.

Revelation wrote:

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-asia-china-deals-boeing/boeing-signs-deal-to-sell-300-planes-worth-37-billion-to-china-idUSKBN1D91BZ

Check out the link!

It says:

State-run China Aviation Supplies, which leases planes to Chinese airlines, said the order was for 260 B-737s as well as 40 B777s and B787s. The breakdown between firm orders and non-binding commitments was not immediately available.

So, no 747-8i, so it seems.

But it does say...

"Earlier on Thursday, General Electric said it had signed deals worth $3.5 billion in China.

They included a $1.4 billion agreement for GEnx engines for 10 B-787-9 Dreamliners, signed with Juneyao Airlines Co Ltd (603885.SS) and ICBC Leasing, the leasing arm of state bank Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Ltd (601398.SS).

It also included an order valued at $1.1 billion for 80 LEAP engines made by CFM International, a joint venture between GE and Safran SA (SAF.PA) of France.

GE’s power division also signed a partnership agreement with China Datang Group to provide gas- and steam-powered turbines and components, plus services and digital technology for power projects in China. It valued that deal at $1 billion.

A GE spokesperson said its engine orders were new, and deferred to Boeing on how much of aircraft order was new."