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LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:14 pm
by mozart
I am interested which airlines used LIS as an intermediate/tech stop during the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s (I just assumed that in the 1990s no airline did that anymore). Which routes, which aircraft? I know that KLM, British Airways and Air France all at one point used LIS as an intermediate stop for their South America services. But no exact idea on routes and aircraft.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:54 pm
by MalevTU134
SK had LIS stops on their routes from CPH to GRU/GIG/MVD/EZE/SCL (not sure if they ever flew themselves to SCL or if it was always a LADECO operated flight from EZE). I think it was until early 90s....but late 80s for sure...

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:26 pm
by sgbroimp
I flew JFK-LIS-BCN in the summer of 1973. PanAm 747-100.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:29 pm
by Embajador3
I remember flying on Viasa's DC-10's from SCQ to CCS, during the early 90s. Each time it stopped at LIS.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:48 pm
by bluemeatball
PA flt 254 or 255 routed MIA-SJU-LIS-MAD-FCO

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:10 pm
by GeordieFlier
In around 1993-1994 we took a family holiday from Newcastle to Lanzarote (Arrecife) on an Airtours MD-83. Presumably due to range, we stopped in MAN on the outbound leg to refuel (after a pleasant 20 minute hop) before continuing down to the Canaries.

On the return we stopped in Portugal to refuel - I was pre-teen at the time and my memory is hazy, I'm fairly sure we were told we'd stopped "in the Algarve", so presumably Faro, however, I had a window seat and as we taxiied for takeoff, I distinctly remember crossing a runway before we did a sharp left turn and took off - which matches crossing runway 21 onto runway 17 (as they are today) at Lisbon.

Just thought I'd chip in, in case anyone had further details or found it vaguely interesting!

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:50 am
by goldenjet707
Swissair used to route their JFK service to Zurich through Lisbon several times a week on their DC-8’s up until the early 70’s.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:56 am
by klm617
Angola Airlines LUN-LIS-SXF and LUN-LIS-ORY

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:49 am
by incitatus
KLM had a long history flying between Lisbon and Brazil. It inaugurated service in October 1946:AMS-LIS-DKR-NAT-GIG-MVD. I do not have exactly the date it went nonstop to Brazil, but in the mid-80s the stop in LIS still existed. KLM played an important role in linking Brazil and Portugal - TAP only started flying to Brazil in 1960.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:09 am
by faucett
IIRC, SU used to fly LIM-HAV-LIS-XXX (Don't remember, I think LUX)-MOW during the 70's. Those milk runs were so interesting ....

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:59 am
by eta unknown
Iraqi Airways 707: BGW-AMM-LIS-GIG

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:40 am
by dibble777
British United Airways/British Caledonian operated flights BR663 and BR665, if I remember correctly,
LGW-LIS-GIG-VCP-EZE-SCL
LGW-REC-GIG-VCP-EZE-SCL
LGW-MAD-EZE-SCL

using Boeing 707s/VC-10s and later DC-10-30s

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 am
by Xcarrier
1980 or 81 I traveled GIG-LIS-LHR on a Varig DC10.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:46 am
by sas931
MalevTU134 wrote:
SK had LIS stops on their routes from CPH to GRU/GIG/MVD/EZE/SCL (not sure if they ever flew themselves to SCL or if it was always a LADECO operated flight from EZE). I think it was until early 90s....but late 80s for sure...

SAS flew the route all the way itself...it was SK955
Rgds
Ole

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:57 pm
by airbazar
Embajador3 wrote:
I remember flying on Viasa's DC-10's from SCQ to CCS, during the early 90s. Each time it stopped at LIS.

I flew the Viasa DC-10 between LIS and AMS in the late 80's.
IIRC, SA flew their SP's via LIS during Apartheid.
I think LAM also flew from LIS to other places in Europe but their schedule changed so often I can't really remember exactly.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:16 pm
by PanHAM
In the good old days, not sure if it was the 70s or 80s, I had the luck of being rebooked from striking TAP to a KLM D10 coming from South America,, continuing-/LIS--FRA=-AMS

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:13 pm
by TAP343
airbazar wrote:
IIRC, SA flew their SP's via LIS during Apartheid.


SA used to fly JNB-SID-LIS-FCO-ATH in the 80's.

I flew the LIS-FCO-ATH legs in 1983 on a B747SP.

airbazar wrote:
I think LAM also flew from LIS to other places in Europe but their schedule changed so often I can't really remember exactly.


I remember seeing their ads in Portuguese newspapers advertising their LIS-SXF flight on a DC10 in the 80's.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:21 pm
by TAP343
MalevTU134 wrote:
SK had LIS stops on their routes from CPH to GRU/GIG/MVD/EZE/SCL (not sure if they ever flew themselves to SCL or if it was always a LADECO operated flight from EZE). I think it was until early 90s....but late 80s for sure...


I flew the CPH-LIS leg of their CPH-LIS-SCL flight in 1985 on a DC10. They did fly all the way to SCL.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:29 pm
by cathay747
For some reason a bell is ringing in my head that some of AZ's flights between ROM and North America may have routed via LIS, in addition to some routed via LHR...I think they had 5th freedom rights @ LHR too, don't know about LIS if I'm even correct about LIS. This is of course back in DC-7 and early DC-8 days, all due to range issues.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:34 pm
by cathay747
eta unknown wrote:
Iraqi Airways 707: BGW-AMM-LIS-GIG


This blows my mind...why on EARTH did Iraqi Airways fly to GIG???? What POSSIBLE market could there have been???? Was/is there an Iraqi diaspora in Brasil? I believe due to a Lebanese diaspora is the reason REAL/Varig flew their milk-run between Brail and BEY.

Man, it's amazing some of the (seemingly) ridiculous markets/routes airlines flew in the 60's and 70's.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:40 pm
by BostonBeau
Not really a technical stop, but Pan Am flew a B707 in the 60's twice a week JFK-BOS-SMA-LIS-CMN/RBA (The service to RBA was only during construction at CMN)

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:10 pm
by klm617
Didn't SAS also fly from Lisbon to the Caribbean.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:02 pm
by ro1960
Like already mentioned above PA stopped in LIS to serve Southern Europe with different routings:

    1956 PA156 JFK-LIS-BCN-CIA - Boeing Super Stratocruiser
    1957/58 PA154 JFK-SMA-LIS-BCN-NCE-CIA - Douglas DC-7
    1960 PA154 JFK-LIS-BCN-NCE-CIA - Boeing 707
    1961 PA154 JFK-LIS-BCN-NCE-FCO - Boeing 707

More for sure

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:22 pm
by ro1960
The above flight 154 continued into the 70s with a variant in 1970: PA154 JFK-LIS-BCN - Boeing 747

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:57 pm
by airbazar
cathay747 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Iraqi Airways 707: BGW-AMM-LIS-GIG


This blows my mind...why on EARTH did Iraqi Airways fly to GIG???? What POSSIBLE market could there have been???? Was/is there an Iraqi diaspora in Brasil? I believe due to a Lebanese diaspora is the reason REAL/Varig flew their milk-run between Brail and BEY.

Man, it's amazing some of the (seemingly) ridiculous markets/routes airlines flew in the 60's and 70's.

Brazil and Iraq were fairly big trade partners back then and noth were being ruled by a dictator. Brazil needed lots of oil, and Iraq needed manufactured goods from Brazil, including weapons.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:05 am
by AAvgeek744
TWA briefly flew LIS-Casablanca in the 70's. I believe they flew LIS-BCN but I'm not home to look into timetables. There was the weekly JFK-BOS-Santa Maria-Lisbon route. I though TWA flew all it's north Africa routes via LIS, but it seems they were MAD.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:26 pm
by TAP343
AAvgeek744 wrote:
I believe they flew LIS-BCN but I'm not home to look into timetables.


They did indeed. I was on that flight back in 1985 operated by a L-1011.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:16 pm
by dcajet
airbazar wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Iraqi Airways 707: BGW-AMM-LIS-GIG


This blows my mind...why on EARTH did Iraqi Airways fly to GIG???? What POSSIBLE market could there have been???? Was/is there an Iraqi diaspora in Brasil? I believe due to a Lebanese diaspora is the reason REAL/Varig flew their milk-run between Brail and BEY.

Man, it's amazing some of the (seemingly) ridiculous markets/routes airlines flew in the 60's and 70's.

Brazil and Iraq were fairly big trade partners back then and noth were being ruled by a dictator. Brazil needed lots of oil, and Iraq needed manufactured goods from Brazil, including weapons.


I remember as a teenager back in the mid 80s seeing the green liveried 747s of Iraqi Airways at GIG, right next to PA 747 Clippers. I believe that by the 80s the flight routed Bagdhad to Rio via Casablanca.

Nitpick: although Brazil was ruled by its armed forces from 1964 to 1985, there was never a dictator a la Saddam Hussein. In fact, the only thing they had in common was that they did not come to power through the popular vote. The Brazilian military government was like a Scandinavian social democracy compared to the Iraqi regime.

With Jose Sarney as president, Brazil returned to democracy in 1985 and those Iraqi flights lasted pretty much until Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:59 pm
by Grandpa
In August 1969 I flew with ZRH-VCP in a LH FRA-ZRH-LIS-GIG-VCP flight in a 707

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:12 am
by Egerton
In the Autumn of 1953 or thereabouts by parents flew from Southampton Water to Madeira via LIS in an Aquila Airways flying boat, a converted Short Sunderland. They had engine troubles past the point of no return on the LIS to Madeira leg, and by the time they arrived they were short of engines and the sea state was bad. All on board were saved, I don't think that 'boat flew again.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:23 am
by factsonly
In the 1960's and 1970's the bilateral arrangements between Portugal and the Netherlands determined that each national airline was restricted in the number of seats/frequencies/days of operation on the route LIS-AMS-LIS, however both national airlines had beyond rights.

KLM operated the majority of its Caribbean and Central America network over LIS, with only 1x flight over MAD. Due to the restrictive bilateral with Portugal many KL flights made a technical stop in LIS, as these services where beyond the scope of the bilateral. So KLM could not sell AMS-LIS on its own services on the days that TP operated the route, therefore KL was restricted to selling seats AMS-LIS-AMS on Mon, Wed, Sun only.

The 1970 network for KL and TP for LIS-AMS looked as follows:

- KL577 AMS-LIS-CMN 2x/week DC9
- KL771 AMS-FRA-LIS-PBM-CCS-CUR 1x/week DC8S
- KL773 AMS-FRA-ZRH-LIS-POS-CCS-CUR-PTY-LIM 1x/week DC8
- KL791 AMS-ZRH-LIS-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL 1x/week DC8

While TP operated:
- TP603 LIS-BRU-AMS 2x/week CRV with traffic rights BRU-AMS-BRU.
- TP621 LIS-AMS 1x week CRV

Here is the 1974 network from LIS for TP and KL:

TP operated LIS-AMS-CPH v.v. 3x/week B727 on Tue, Thu, Sat, with full traffic rights on AMS-CPH-AMS.
TP operated LIS-AMS-LIS 1x/week B727 on Friday.

KL flights AMS-LIS-AMS on Tue, Thu, Fri, Sat (when TP operated) were 'technical stop only' in LIS.

- KL367/368 AMS-LIS-AMS 1x/week DC9-15
- KL577/578 AMS-LIS-CMN 2x/week DC9-30
- KL770 CUR-CCS-LIS-AMS 1x/week D10
- KL771 AMS-LIS-AUA-CCS-PBM 1x/week D10 open for travel AMS-LIS
- KL772 PBM-LIS-AMS 1x/week D10 open for travel LIS-AMS
- KL773 AMS-ZRH-LIS-CCS-CUR-GYE-LIM 1x/week D10 tech. stop only
- KL774 LIM-GYE-CUR-CCS-LIS-ZRH-AMS 1x/week D10 tech.stop only
- KL777 AMS-FRA-LIS-POS-CUR-PTY-UIO 1x/week D10 open for travel AMS-LIS
- KL778 UIO-PTY-CUR-POS-LIS-FRA-AMS 1x/week D10 open for travel LIS-AMS
- KL779 AMS-LIS-PBM-CUR 1x/week D10 tech. stop only

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:04 pm
by cathay747
factsonly wrote:
In the 1960's and 1970's the bilateral arrangements between Portugal and the Netherlands determined that each national airline was restricted in the number of seats/frequencies/days of operation on the route LIS-AMS-LIS, however both national airlines had beyond rights.

KLM operated the majority of its Caribbean and Central America network over LIS, with only 1x flight over MAD. Due to the restrictive bilateral with Portugal many KL flights made a technical stop in LIS, as these services where beyond the scope of the bilateral. So KLM could not sell AMS-LIS on its own services on the days that TP operated the route, therefore KL was restricted to selling seats AMS-LIS-AMS on Mon, Wed, Sun only.

The 1970 network for KL and TP for LIS-AMS looked as follows:

- KL577 AMS-LIS-CMN 2x/week DC9
- KL771 AMS-FRA-LIS-PBM-CCS-CUR 1x/week DC8S
- KL773 AMS-FRA-ZRH-LIS-POS-CCS-CUR-PTY-LIM 1x/week DC8
- KL791 AMS-ZRH-LIS-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL 1x/week DC8

While TP operated:
- TP603 LIS-BRU-AMS 2x/week CRV with traffic rights BRU-AMS-BRU.
- TP621 LIS-AMS 1x week CRV

Here is the 1974 network from LIS for TP and KL:

TP operated LIS-AMS-CPH v.v. 3x/week B727 on Tue, Thu, Sat, with full traffic rights on AMS-CPH-AMS.
TP operated LIS-AMS-LIS 1x/week B727 on Friday.

KL flights AMS-LIS-AMS on Tue, Thu, Fri, Sat (when TP operated) were 'technical stop only' in LIS.

- KL367/368 AMS-LIS-AMS 1x/week DC9-15
- KL577/578 AMS-LIS-CMN 2x/week DC9-30
- KL770 CUR-CCS-LIS-AMS 1x/week D10
- KL771 AMS-LIS-AUA-CCS-PBM 1x/week D10 open for travel AMS-LIS
- KL772 PBM-LIS-AMS 1x/week D10 open for travel LIS-AMS
- KL773 AMS-ZRH-LIS-CCS-CUR-GYE-LIM 1x/week D10 tech. stop only
- KL774 LIM-GYE-CUR-CCS-LIS-ZRH-AMS 1x/week D10 tech.stop only
- KL777 AMS-FRA-LIS-POS-CUR-PTY-UIO 1x/week D10 open for travel AMS-LIS
- KL778 UIO-PTY-CUR-POS-LIS-FRA-AMS 1x/week D10 open for travel LIS-AMS
- KL779 AMS-LIS-PBM-CUR 1x/week D10 tech. stop only


The above is an example of what I posted above about ridiculous routings back then. Why on earth did KL route via FRA and/or ZRH from AMS to LIS??? Insane! Like a DC-8 or DC-10 couldn't make it nonstop AMS-LIS? LOL

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:47 pm
by factsonly
cathay747 wrote:

The above is an example of what I posted above about ridiculous routings back then. Why on earth did KL route via FRA and/or ZRH from AMS to LIS??? Insane! Like a DC-8 or DC-10 couldn't make it nonstop AMS-LIS? LOL


The airline industry prior to its liberalisation was a completely different industry to what we know today. The industry was heavily regulated by Government and strictly managed by IATA agreements. The complex routings in the 1970's you call 'insane' have nothing to do with aircraft range, but everything to do with the historic development airline networks, bilaterals and commercial agreements.

In the 1970's airlines operated these routings, as these routes were first developed in the propeller days when only a few airlines operated worldwide. We are talking the time period from 1930's - 1960's. For both commercial and technical reasons the first intercontinental flights had to stop regularly. Therefore Governments negotiated traffic rights based on these multi-sector routings. Remember that in those days, traffic volumes were very low, flying was expensive and only available to a few. Demand did not warrant non-stop service. The result was that a small number of national carriers could serve multiple markets. Here is an example of how markets were served, taken from an above KLM routing:

- KL773 AMS-FRA-ZRH-LIS-POS-CCS-CUR-PTY-LIM 1x/week DC8

This single flight served up to 36x markets (clearly subject to traffic rights being available - which was not always the case for all sectors):
1. AMS-FRA
2. AMS-ZRH
3. AMS-LIS
4. AMS-POS
5. AMS-CCS
6. AMS-CUR
7. AMS-PTY
8. AMS-LIM
9. FRA-ZRH
10. FRA-LIS
11. FRA-POS
12. FRA-CCS
13. FRA-CUR
14. FRA-PTY
15. FRA-LIM
16. ZRH-LIS
17. ZRH-POS
18. ZRH-CCS
19. ZRH-CUR
20. ZRH-PTY
21. ZRH-LIM
22. LIS-POS
23. LIS-CCS
24. LIS-CUR
25. LIS-PTY
26. LIS-LIM
27. POS-CCS
28. POS-CUR
29. POS-PTY
30. POS-LIM
31. CCS-CUR
32. CCS-PTY
33. CCS-LIM
34. CUR-PTY
35. CUR-LIM
36. PTY-LIM

Clearly in the days of much lower demand this was a highly effective way of operating long distances profitably. The original legacy carriers were truly global airlines, they served many markets outside their home market. This aspect of global airlines has largely disappeared with liberalisation of the airline industry.

So not insane, just an economic reality of those days.

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:29 pm
by FlySSC
In the 80s, Air France was operating some Air Charter flights with B727 routing CDG-LIS-DKR

Re: LIS as intermediate stop in 60s, 70s, and 80s

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:18 pm
by ANDY3
I remember making an epic flight in 1984 on a KLM DC10-30, AMS-LIS-CCS-AUA-PTY-GUA