TSA125
Topic Author
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:27 pm

With the demise of airberlin, there are no longer any direct ORD-TXL flights. Could AA pick those up, given the OW connection opportunities? Is UA the more likely one to bite?

I would imagine there would be quite some demand between these two major cities!
No not that TSA.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10988
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:43 pm

Heaven forbid United do anything of the sort.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
sw733
Posts: 5861
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:46 pm

United would make more sense - a decent sized Star Alliance FF base on both ends. But I still believe that if UA/AA/etc believe there was a market there for their specific airline, they would be on that route already.
 
masgniw
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:49 pm

I believe there is only one Berlin-USA year-round direct flight now (Lufthansa TXL-JFK). I would imagine if UA started up an TXL-ORD flight, it'd be in direct competition with the existing Lufthansa flight to JFK, considering the connecting traffic. I don't necessarily see that happening.

Most of the economic engine of Germany is well outside of Berlin, so I don't know if it demands much more than one direct USA flight as it stands.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 pm

I just realized Air Berlin served TXL-ORD for quite a long time. I forget when it was launched however.

United seems to be doing well in Berlin, and I think they will focus on the EWR-TXL instead of launching ORD-TXL for now.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10988
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:53 pm

masgniw wrote:
I believe there is only one Berlin-USA year-round direct flight now (Lufthansa TXL-JFK). I would imagine if UA started up an TXL-ORD flight, it'd be in direct competition with the existing Lufthansa flight to JFK, considering the connecting traffic. I don't necessarily see that happening.

Most of the economic engine of Germany is well outside of Berlin, so I don't know if it demands much more than one direct USA flight as it stands.


What connecting traffic at JFK?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
masgniw
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:54 pm

stlgph wrote:
masgniw wrote:
I believe there is only one Berlin-USA year-round direct flight now (Lufthansa TXL-JFK). I would imagine if UA started up an TXL-ORD flight, it'd be in direct competition with the existing Lufthansa flight to JFK, considering the connecting traffic. I don't necessarily see that happening.

Most of the economic engine of Germany is well outside of Berlin, so I don't know if it demands much more than one direct USA flight as it stands.


What connecting traffic at JFK?


To anywhere in the US?
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:55 pm

Isn't EWR-TXL on UA year-round?

For selfish and symbolic reasons, I would love to see IAD-TXL.
DISCLAIMER: Airliners.net is an AIRBUS forum. Boeing Commercial Airplanes, if it has considered doing so in the past, should in no way consider supporting this website.
 
masgniw
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:59 pm

holzmann wrote:
Isn't EWR-TXL on UA year-round?

For selfish and symbolic reasons, I would love to see IAD-TXL.


Sure is. Missed that one.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5910
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Its 25 PDEW, so no.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:31 pm

Please stay on topic and avoid personal attacks. Debate the topic, not the user. Petty comments just aren't necessary.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5516
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:48 pm

TXL lost all its longhaul with AB. No one saw value in continuing it.

Why would LH continue it when they can shuttle you to MUC and FRA?

The Germans signed off on this...must be for the best! (cue eyeroll)
 
Travelmanager
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:01 pm

I could see Eurowings starting it as a seasonal summer route. Announce, see what the bookings look like, and grow the route if demand is there. With their purchase of Air Berlin assets, didn't TXL become a larger city for them? Sure, as was mentioned by JFKLGANYC, LH Group could flow passengers through MUC and FRA, but then they would be competing with everyone else for 1-stop traffic. If the route works really well, they could switch it to a higher service level Lufthansa flight.
 
evanb
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 pm

If anything, I think the most likely would be for a LH Group airline to start TXL-ORD, maybe LH if their TXL-JFK flight is a success, or EW if they find Berlin to be lower yielding.

I don't see AA doing it. The OW connecting opportunities are no longer available at TXL and they don't fly anything other than ORD-LHR (in Europe) year-round from Chicago. If anything, TXL might be more likely from another hub with more European flights than ORD.
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:18 pm

I was in Berlin this summer and many, many locals boasted that Berlin is now the third most-visited city in Europe behind London and Paris. My friend and I found that shocking given how poor flight connections are from the U.S., at least in terms of lack of nonstop flights. Coming from BNA, it required a double-connection in CLT/PHL and LHR.

I realize there is not a huge biz market, but I am surprised more U.S. airlines don't offer nonstop service on planes with Y-heavy configurations for leisure travelers. Seems like that demand is certainly there.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2882
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:22 pm

masgniw wrote:
stlgph wrote:
masgniw wrote:
I believe there is only one Berlin-USA year-round direct flight now (Lufthansa TXL-JFK). I would imagine if UA started up an TXL-ORD flight, it'd be in direct competition with the existing Lufthansa flight to JFK, considering the connecting traffic. I don't necessarily see that happening.

Most of the economic engine of Germany is well outside of Berlin, so I don't know if it demands much more than one direct USA flight as it stands.


What connecting traffic at JFK?


To anywhere in the US?


LH's primary partner in the US, does not serve JFK.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:50 pm

UALFAson wrote:
I was in Berlin this summer and many, many locals boasted that Berlin is now the third most-visited city in Europe behind London and Paris. My friend and I found that shocking given how poor flight connections are from the U.S., at least in terms of lack of nonstop flights. Coming from BNA, it required a double-connection in CLT/PHL and LHR.


Berlin is extremely popular among European tourist for short city break trips. Its well known for being a big Bohemian party culture. High volume of LCC traffic is perfect for this type of market.

This however neither drives global travel demand nor underlying business traffic. Berlin is actually one of Germany's more poor regions, an economic rustbelt with lower GDP than most other large cities in the country.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5017
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:00 pm

UALFAson wrote:
I was in Berlin this summer and many, many locals boasted that Berlin is now the third most-visited city in Europe behind London and Paris. My friend and I found that shocking given how poor flight connections are from the U.S., at least in terms of lack of nonstop flights. Coming from BNA, it required a double-connection in CLT/PHL and LHR.
I realize there is not a huge biz market, but I am surprised more U.S. airlines don't offer nonstop service on planes with Y-heavy configurations for leisure travelers. Seems like that demand is certainly there.

Berlin is undoubtedly a strange market! I too was there just recently and came away with the impression that it is a large government & tourist market but a fairly small business market. As a result of this you need to consider just how the average tourist visits Europe and that is the visit usually includes multiple cities, often in multiple countries. If we accept this, then Berlin is poorly located to START or end a tourist visit. It's right in the middle, to most tourists to start on the edge and work in, then out makes more sense. This is exactly the same situation as Australia-USA, the biggest market is inbound to LAX, where there are substantial business interests and its where most Aussie tourist start their trip, even if they visit other areas of the US, so other gateways do not see substantial TOURIST interest from Australia [SFO is the only challenger to this].

Just my $A0.02 worth

Gemuser
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:08 pm

UA would probably sooner resume ORD-DUS or try a "capital to capital" IAD-TXL than gamble on ORD-TXL. After years of reductions in the ORD-Europe realm, AA has recently demonstrated a willingness and ability to serve popular European leisure markets from ORD (seasonally with the 787). PHL-TXL would probably come first, though.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
User avatar
yeogeo
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:16 pm

Once upon a time Lufthansa was scheduled to start TXL-ORD - I know because I was booked on the flight. It was cancelled before it began and i was booked on TXL-FRA-ORD instead. This was back in the 90's, as I recall.

yeo
 
User avatar
yeogeo
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:28 pm

Gemuser wrote:
...Berlin is poorly located to START or end a tourist visit. It's right in the middle. Gemuser


That's an incredibly fluid phrase, "in the middle" when considering the sphere we call home! I flew out of Berlin once and it was at the end of one particular Euro tour of mine. (Paris/Alsace/Berlin), so vive la differance! my end is your middle :)

yeo
 
pezzy669
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:39 pm

I flew Air Berlin on TXL-ORD back in I think March 2013 which I think was ~6 months after it started. Super light load on the A332, venture to guess it was probably 55-60% LF. Will say service was impeccable which made up for the ultra cramped economy cabin.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6924
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:51 pm

holzmann wrote:
Isn't EWR-TXL on UA year-round?

For selfish and symbolic reasons, I would love to see IAD-TXL.

You'd think the capitals of 2 of the most powerful countries that happen to be close allies would have air service between the 2. Without looking at the numbers, I'd say this has to be one of the largest holes for TATL service, looking at a face value perspective.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
westgate
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:06 am

UALFAson wrote:
I was in Berlin this summer and many, many locals boasted that Berlin is now the third most-visited city in Europe behind London and Paris. My friend and I found that shocking given how poor flight connections are from the U.S., at least in terms of lack of nonstop flights. Coming from BNA, it required a double-connection in CLT/PHL and LHR.

I realize there is not a huge biz market, but I am surprised more U.S. airlines don't offer nonstop service on planes with Y-heavy configurations for leisure travellers. Seems like that demand is certainly there.


The number of non-stop intercontinental flights that a European tourist destination can support will very much be determined by how what percentage of tourists are visiting only that city on their trip. London, Paris and Rome for example get significant number of North American tourists who will visit just one of those cities exclusively for a week and then fly back home again.

I really don't know where Berlin stands at the moment, it is indeed a lot more popular than it used to be, but it certainly isn't a London, Paris or Rome just yet. I'm sure there are a number of North american tourists who do in fact fly to Europe solely to visit Berlin, but that demand would likely be more than well catered for with the available one or two-stop connections and the handful of non-stop flights.

But I do think it would indeed be useful if Berlin did in fact have a non-stop to one of the larger mid-US hubs like ATL or ORD, as that would open up a significant number of one-stop itineraries to the city.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 am

holzmann wrote:
Isn't EWR-TXL on UA year-round?

For selfish and symbolic reasons, I would love to see IAD-TXL.


UA has EWR-TXL year round, and has flown it for years, initially with the 757-200 (CO started the route), then switched to the 767-300ER. In summer, I think it often goes up to the -400. DL has seasonal JFK-TXL on a 767-300ER. LH flew IAD-TXL in 2000 or 2001 for a brief time, then dropped it. AA had ORD-TXL in 1993 on the 767-200ER but it did not last. The LH route to JFK that replaced the AB flight will eventually transition to EuroWings by Summer 2018 and go from an A330-300 to the A330-200 which is what it was when AB flew it.

I could see UA start TXL since it would benefit from feed at both ends. AA no longer has a partner in Germany and Air Berlin was a weak link for Oneworld, at best.
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:09 am

I could also see UA doing it. Berlin is one of the hottest tourism cities in the world right now - especially for creatives. The tech money is now following that trend, so it's a market that will keep on growing. I've been going for a few years now, strictly United, and have seen the EWR-TXL flight mature during that time. My trips have gone from regularly having a middle seat to myself on the 752 to a packed 763 every time.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25820
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:44 am

The market is not underserved by not having service.

Eurowings will probably enter MIA-TXL, which is 80 PDEW+, but that's it in terms of Berlin-U.S. Don't think anybody will rush into other markets.
a.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:34 am

Seems like Berlin-US could be an opportunity for Norwegian or another long haul LCC.
 
TSA125
Topic Author
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:16 pm

travelin man wrote:
Seems like Berlin-US could be an opportunity for Norwegian or another long haul LCC.


If Berlin is indeed an LCC-heavy capital, this may be an excellent opportunity for Norwegian. And ORD may be the most likely for them out of TXL. Should also be interesting to see how their LGW-ORD flight goes next year.
No not that TSA.
 
TSA125
Topic Author
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:19 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
UA would probably sooner resume ORD-DUS or try a "capital to capital" IAD-TXL than gamble on ORD-TXL. After years of reductions in the ORD-Europe realm, AA has recently demonstrated a willingness and ability to serve popular European leisure markets from ORD (seasonally with the 787). PHL-TXL would probably come first, though.


You bring up a great point. I'd say ORD-DUS is probably more underserved than ORD-TXL. AA and LH have both operated that in the past five years, and at a time concurrently! It would be interesting to get an insight into the LF's then to get a sense of why it is no longer served.
No not that TSA.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3954
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Chicago to Berlin - Underserved?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:28 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Coming from BNA, it required a double-connection in CLT/PHL and LHR.


Air Canada would have been an option, then you'd only have one transfer in Toronto. And in about half a year you can add British Airways to that since then they'll be starting direct flights to Nashville.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos