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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:07 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Whether the allegation is true or not is irrelevant, it is a minimum courtesy for the crew to accommodate somewhere else when there is a pending allegation, or let her sit in a jump seat. She sat most of her flight in a jump seat which is even more uncomfortable than an economy seat. Purser coercing her to sit next to alleged perp probably escalated the situation and bought themselves some stripes. The only closest analogy I can find is in some third world tribal community leaders rule sexual assault victims to marry the perp.


For a start look up in the thread, she never told the Crew the passenger was masturbating. She was saying he fell asleep and slouched into her. I would say that would occur on almost every long haul flight in economy.

Also up in the thread, she was offered another seat in economy which she declined, and then failed to follow a crew members direction to return to a passenger seat for landing.

The masturbation allegation was only made after the flight, and the alleged offender was released by the police after their investigation.

What really smells bad about this to me is the passenger next to her had his father on the other side.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:07 am

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Whether the allegation is true or not is irrelevant, it is a minimum courtesy for the crew to accommodate somewhere else when there is a pending allegation, or let her sit in a jump seat. She sat most of her flight in a jump seat which is even more uncomfortable than an economy seat. Purser coercing her to sit next to alleged perp probably escalated the situation and bought themselves some stripes. The only closest analogy I can find is in some third world tribal community leaders rule sexual assault victims to marry the perp.


For a start look up in the thread, she never told the Crew the passenger was masturbating. She was saying he fell asleep and slouched into her. I would say that would occur on almost every long haul flight in economy.


do you know that for a fact? On a long flight he could have done both at different times.


zeke wrote:
Also up in the thread, she was offered another seat in economy which she declined, and then failed to follow a crew members direction to return to a passenger seat for landing.


Sounds to me quite unlogical, having been offered an economy seat and sitting for a long time in a jump seat instead.

zeke wrote:
The masturbation allegation was only made after the flight, and the alleged offender was released by the police after their investigation.


Do you know it for a fact, that she did not mention it to the crew in flight?

zeke wrote:
What really smells bad about this to me is the passenger next to her had his father on the other side.


The discussion in this thread smells of the usual a.net bias against a passenger and for the crew.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:32 am

The key issues here obviously are 10 abreast on an AF 777 and a 100% load factor :)
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:56 am

If you follow my posts in this thread, you will see that I said;
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
there are TWO versions of events circulating

It is such an obvious concept, and yet it is overlooked in so many posts here.

I am now going to update that idea with the following humdinger; there are THREE versions of events circulating
1) The story detailed by the victim, Mme Klass
2) The defence offered by the alleged perpetrator, M. Carayon
3) The witness statement from the senior F/A

I have attempted to summarise each of the three versions, based on potentially questionable reporting from both sides of the Atlantic. My apologies if my posts were necessarily so long and detailed that nobody actually bothered to read them. :roll:

Once again, I am happy to admit I do not know which story is closest to the actual truth. Unfortunately some others here have already decided who is guilty.

Mjoelnir; when you queried zeke (twice) with your comment "do you know that for a fact?" you were correct.
But you also know that zeke was responding to dtw2hyd, who similarly presented one of the stories as fact.
Where was your criticism of dtw2hyd?

The logical conclusion is that you are also guilty of taking just one of the stories as fact, and anything else as questionable.
Please tell me I am wrong.

My final observation here is one that in all these posts cannot have been overlooked, and yet I see no mention of it.
Was there a breakdown in communication?
Mme Klass is Argentine and naturally speaks Spanish
M Carayon is French
The senior F/A is French, but since he is serving on a flight to Argentina, might be expected to understand Spanish too.
However, it appears he spoke to Mme Klass in English.

I ask again; Was there a breakdown in communication?

99 times out of 100 this is the answer to so many things around the world, from international disputes over nuclear weapons, to neighbours arguing over who's dog chased who's cat.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:09 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
If you follow my posts in this thread, you will see that I said;
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
there are TWO versions of events circulating

It is such an obvious concept, and yet it is overlooked in so many posts here.

I am now going to update that idea with the following humdinger; there are THREE versions of events circulating
1) The story detailed by the victim, Mme Klass
2) The defence offered by the alleged perpetrator, M. Carayon
3) The witness statement from the senior F/A

I have attempted to summarise each of the three versions, based on potentially questionable reporting from both sides of the Atlantic. My apologies if my posts were necessarily so long and detailed that nobody actually bothered to read them. :roll:

Once again, I am happy to admit I do not know which story is closest to the actual truth. Unfortunately some others here have already decided who is guilty.

Mjoelnir; when you queried zeke (twice) with your comment "do you know that for a fact?" you were correct.
But you also know that zeke was responding to dtw2hyd, who similarly presented one of the stories as fact.
Where was your criticism of dtw2hyd?

The logical conclusion is that you are also guilty of taking just one of the stories as fact, and anything else as questionable.
Please tell me I am wrong.

My final observation here is one that in all these posts cannot have been overlooked, and yet I see no mention of it.
Was there a breakdown in communication?
Mme Klass is Argentine and naturally speaks Spanish
M Carayon is French
The senior F/A is French, but since he is serving on a flight to Argentina, might be expected to understand Spanish too.
However, it appears he spoke to Mme Klass in English.

I ask again; Was there a breakdown in communication?

99 times out of 100 this is the answer to so many things around the world, from international disputes over nuclear weapons, to neighbours arguing over who's dog chased who's cat.


As you talked directly to me, I want to answer. I did not take a side. I just rebutted that some information in certain publications and repeated here, raise to the status of being established facts. I have read name calling on this thread in regards to the passenger. I think this thread is strongly biased in one direction.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:23 am

zeke wrote:
For a start look up in the thread, she never told the Crew the passenger was masturbating. She was saying he fell asleep and slouched into her. I would say that would occur on almost every long haul flight in economy.

Also up in the thread, she was offered another seat in economy which she declined, and then failed to follow a crew members direction to return to a passenger seat for landing.

The masturbation allegation was only made after the flight, and the alleged offender was released by the police after their investigation.


OP had a link to union fed story (now gone) which suggests she reported "inappropriate behaviour", crew checked and didn't find any "inappropriate behaviour". Did they check his underpants for liquid quantity or surrounding walls with UV light? As you said, leaning on next passenger in a 10 abreast economy class can't be inappropriate behaviour.


zeke wrote:
What really smells bad about this to me is the passenger next to her had his father on the other side.

Probably dad knew junior cannot sleep without jerking off.


No international treaty cannot substitute common sense. Finding her different seat for last 20 minutes, when every is walking around, using lavs and getting ready to land, any passenger would have given their seat. Rather purser tried to coerce her and will pay the price. Now Union throwing tantrum is not going to help much.

She endured the mistreatment, took notes and pulled the trigger as soon as she is on the ground, kudos to her.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:39 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
zeke wrote:
For a start look up in the thread, she never told the Crew the passenger was masturbating. She was saying he fell asleep and slouched into her. I would say that would occur on almost every long haul flight in economy.

Also up in the thread, she was offered another seat in economy which she declined, and then failed to follow a crew members direction to return to a passenger seat for landing.

The masturbation allegation was only made after the flight, and the alleged offender was released by the police after their investigation.


OP had a link to union fed story (now gone) which suggests she reported "inappropriate behaviour", crew checked and didn't find any "inappropriate behaviour". Did they check his underpants for liquid quantity or surrounding walls with UV light? As you said, leaning on next passenger in a 10 abreast economy class can't be inappropriate behaviour.


zeke wrote:
What really smells bad about this to me is the passenger next to her had his father on the other side.

Probably dad knew junior cannot sleep without jerking off.


No international treaty cannot substitute common sense. Finding her different seat for last 20 minutes, when every is walking around, using lavs and getting ready to land, any passenger would have given their seat. Rather purser tried to coerce her and will pay the price. Now Union throwing tantrum is not going to help much.

She endured the mistreatment, took notes and pulled the trigger as soon as she is on the ground, kudos to her.


What price is he going to pay?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:48 am

RickNRoll wrote:
What price is he going to pay?


Whatever her dad decides, he is not going to go easy on someone coerced his little princess, correct?
 
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speedbored
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:53 pm

Byron1976 wrote:
Next time I'll try with a senior F/A.

Or you could just take heed of what Zeke is saying as he is a far more senior person on-board than any cabin crew member, trainee or senior.

While many countries have laws that give the power of arrest to any citizen, "in the name of the law", and those rules often apply on domestic flights within those countries, there are very specific rules that apply on international flights, all of which have been defined by international conventions.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:01 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
And show me what percentage of my statements are missing those qualifiers?


I found this post of your particularly loaded in perceptions.

“So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?”

Everyone should be afforded natural justice, the complainant, the alleged offender, and the crew.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
PanAm1971
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:14 pm

In several decades of travel I've learned that when you're heading into someone else's country and a local says or implies "Do you know who I am?" pay attention.

The crew may have been better off getting the passport number, address, phone number and then giving her the upgrade and sending a report of the incident to management.

When overseas don't assume the rules you're used to apply in the manner you are familiar with.

Logic is all too often subject to interpretation through the filter of local culture.

Try your best not to get into fights with unfamiliar fish in a foreign fishbowl. Locals nearly always win.

If you must take a risk do it over something worth the risk. This wasn't worth it. I'm sure that was management's verdict as well.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:50 pm

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
And show me what percentage of my statements are missing those qualifiers?


I found this post of your particularly loaded in perceptions.

“So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?”

Everyone should be afforded natural justice, the complainant, the alleged offender, and the crew.


I asked that question because it seems to be the prudent thing to do for the king of the cabin. US carriers either off-load one or both parties or at least separate them. There are reports suggesting, purser never informed their captain, and the flight crew was never held or questioned.

This whole thing boils down to "How dare a sub-human 29-year-old Doctor(??) complain about a 37-year-old kite flying jerkoff who happens to be a Frenchman".

That is my perception.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:02 pm

The complaint that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that the passenger said to the crew was the male person next to her slumped onto her when he fell asleep. The alleged offender according to earlier reports has not denied falling asleep and being woken up by the female passenger when he slumped over. The alleged offender by earlier reports has been released by the police.

I would not expect the crew to ever inform me if a passenger slumped onto anther passenger in economy, it is something I would exit would by considered normal in every long haul flight in economy.

Twice now you have referred to the alleged offender as “jerkoff”, you have denied their natural justice.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:14 pm

PanAm1971 wrote:
In several decades of travel I've learned that when you're heading into someone else's country and a local says or implies "Do you know who I am?" pay attention.

The crew may have been better off getting the passport number, address, phone number and then giving her the upgrade and sending a report of the incident to management.

When overseas don't assume the rules you're used to apply in the manner you are familiar with.

Logic is all too often subject to interpretation through the filter of local culture.

Try your best not to get into fights with unfamiliar fish in a foreign fishbowl. Locals nearly always win.

If you must take a risk do it over something worth the risk. This wasn't worth it. I'm sure that was management's verdict as well.

Firstly, I am largely in agreement with what you say.
But just in case either you or anybody else here is under the impression she played the DYKWIA card, AFAIK that is not true. She may have had that uppermost in her mind, but DYKWIA or something similar has not been claimed (except perhaps in the course of this a.net thread)
The crew claim that they simply couldn't give her an upgrade because the flight was full. Whether that is the best response to a princess is another matter; in this case they just couldn't do it. (allegedly)

Those details aside, I am happy to agree with the idea that we should all...
Try your best not to get into fights with unfamiliar fish in a foreign fishbowl. Locals nearly always win.

Which may be why I asked in at least two previous posts whether...
If the incident was really so serious, perhaps the pilot should have been informed in order to turn the aircraft around and head back to CDG

As of now, nobody has responded to that thought.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:16 pm

zeke wrote:
The complaint that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that the passenger said to the crew was the male person next to her slumped onto her when he fell asleep. The alleged offender according to earlier reports has not denied falling asleep and being woken up by the female passenger when he slumped over. The alleged offender by earlier reports has been released by the police.

I would not expect the crew to ever inform me if a passenger slumped onto anther passenger in economy, it is something I would exit would by considered normal in every long haul flight in economy.

Twice now you have referred to the alleged offender as “jerkoff”, you have denied their natural justice.


The link in the original post has been deleted for unknown reasons. You would find a reference to "inappropriate behavior".

How about a situation where a passenger sat in the jump seat for most of the duration of the flight and refusing to go back to her assigned seat, would you like your Purser to inform you?

Every time you use the word natural, I am thinking it is natural for him to ..., Also I don't want to use his name, out of respect to EU privacy laws.
 
dcajet
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
What price is he going to pay?


Whatever her dad decides, he is not going to go easy on someone coerced his little princess, correct?


Incorrect. Silly comment.

The alleged offender is in Argentina of his own accord, has a reservation to return to Paris over the next few days and is free to do so. Legally he is not required to remain in the country. The worst that will happen to him is a fine of AR$12,000 that the court may impose on him if the judge does not throw the case out of court first.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
How about a situation where a passenger sat in the jump seat for most of the duration of the flight and refusing to go back to her assigned seat, would you like your Purser to inform you?


Crew are trained on those situations, there are standard ICAO procedures (Implementation of the Security Provisions of ICAO Annex 6 in ICAO Doc 9811 ) which airlines implement in their own procedures. The ICAO procedures as well as the company procedures are restricted, so I am not going to say on a public forum what will or will not happen.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:45 am

zeke wrote:
... I am not going to say on a public forum what will or will not happen.


Appreciate your candor and I think even AF Pilots union is tight-lipped on this issue. Just to be clear I agree with your position that passengers always should follow crew instructions, the point I was trying to make is there are probably 300 other seats any reasonable cabin crew could have accommodated assuming there is an issue. This purser who had total control and jurisdiction on the situation passed on the control to someone at the destination and put the entire crew at receiving end.

BTW, Can someone translate passenger's complaint to English?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:20 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
This purser who had total control and jurisdiction on the situation passed on the control to someone at the destination and put the entire crew at receiving end.

BTW, Can someone translate passenger's complaint to English?


All, you had to do was ask.....

Most of her statement is familiar stuff - providing you have struggled through posts 48, 50, 55 and 95. Actually you might have to check those numbers; at least one post has been quietly edited out of the equation since then.
I've only got time to dangle this little gem in front of you for now.
Mme Klass wrote:
After a while and in the midst of my crisis of tears and anguish, Giles Mariotti arrived and stopped me talking and gave me the tablet to write this complaint; he brought me to one of the crew seats in front where I am writing this and I greatly appreciate his empathy and dealings with me.


Unless I am mistaken; Gilles Mariotti is the purser to whom you refer. The same purser who is being investigated for "threats and coercion".
Or as I said in one my earlier posts; something doesn't add up here.

There is another bombshell related to this, deep down within Mme Klass's complaint, but it's late and I'm off to bed, so you will have to wait until tomorrow for that... sorry.
:wave:

p.s. I don't even speak good Spanish myself, so if I can do it, why hasn't somebody else come forward with this before?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:16 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
the point I was trying to make is there are probably 300 other seats any reasonable cabin crew could have accommodated assuming there is an issue.


You mean there are probably 300 other people would could politely say no thanks I don’t want to move. You seem to have this notion that every must do whatever the passenger demands, sorry to bust you bubble that is not the case.


dtw2hyd wrote:
This purser who had total control and jurisdiction on the situation passed on the control to someone at the destination and put the entire crew at receiving end.


You have this back to front, the crew are never obligated to do anything because a passenger makes a complaint. The primary role of cabin crew is to aid ALL passengers in the event of an emergency, not to get them food, drinks, blankets, pillows, clean toilets, or intervention into personal disputes. They are not the police, they are not social workers.

I had a passenger complain that someone stole his phone while he was asleep, he wanted me to detain and search every passenger until his phone was found. I simply refused that request, there was no evidence to suggest a crime was committed. I asked if the passenger had searched his seat and personal belongings for the phone. Yes the passenger searched his seat and belongings very well, nothing was found. The crew found his phone in his seat in under 20 seconds dispite him saying it was not there and someone had stolen it.

Using your logic you would want me to take the passengers complaint at face value, and automatically treat every person on the flight as a criminal.

The crew have to be fair to everyone, and everyone is entitled to natural justice. It would seem no crew member or passenger saw the alleged offender committing sexual acts. Now after the police investigation and detaining the crew and the alleged offender, the crew and the alleged offender is released without charge.

What does that say to you ? It says to me a lack of evidence to support any criminal charge.

If that what the police have been able to establish after the fact, imagine how much the airline and crew would be exposed by if they didn’t give the alleged offender their natural justice rights and gave him the benefit of doubt as they also had a lack of evidence at the time to work on. You seem to work on the premise that if someone makes a complaint, the other party is automatically guilty, anyone who has worked in customer service or in a family court setting knows from experience there is more than one way a complaint/allegation can be looked at.

This to me is sounding more and more like the complaint is more a dissatisfaction with the AF service rather than any criminal matter. In line with that, the criminal justice system seems to have washed their hands of the matter.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:10 am

Good morning folks; Shaky's back in town! :D
zeke wrote:
The crew have to be fair to everyone, and everyone is entitled to natural justice. It would seem no crew member or passenger saw the alleged offender committing sexual acts.

You seem to work on the premise that if someone makes a complaint, the other party is automatically guilty, anyone who has worked in customer service or in a family court setting knows from experience there is more than one way a complaint/allegation can be looked at.

This to me is sounding more and more like the complaint is more a dissatisfaction with the AF service rather than any criminal matter.

As usual, Zeke nails it, especially the last bit. :checkmark:

After transcribing, translating, and discombobulating the deposition from Mme Klass, the detailing of the alleged offence itself is just a minor part of it. Just as Zeke suggests.
Within a 500+ word document, it warrants these few words - less than 10% of the total complaint.
Mme Klass wrote:
and opened my eyes and saw that this man had put his hand inside his pants and was moving it; When he realized that I was seeing him, he took his hand from inside his pants and put a cushion on his genital area. (At this point I did not know if he had low pants or not).

She doesn't return to the subject later. As a Doctor she should be perfectly capable of using terms like "masturbarse", and yet that word is singularly absent. Was the man merely scratching an itch? Or re-positioning parts of his anatomy so that they are not quietly crushed underneath him during the following hours stuck in the same cramped seat. I speak as someone who on a long flight has quite literally suffered a condition best described as "numb nuts" (please don't laugh!). It could be he tried to adjust himself without her noticing, whilst her eyes were closed. Unfortunately she woke up at that most inconvenient moment. She was embarrassed, he was probably equally embarrassed. I don't know if that is the case, but it is an equally plausible reason for his actions.
And I repeat; this Doctor did NOT use the word "masturbation" in her deposition. Her statement is very vague in this respect, unlike many of the news reports.

What else can I add?
Mme Klass wrote:
I called the flight attendant with the button on the screen; when arriving this stewardess did not understand what bothered me or how misplaced the situation was; After several attempts to explain it, she understood what was bothering me and with very little desire woke the man next to me and asked him to run (move) his legs
Those of you had waded through my earlier posts will recall that I posed the question "was there a possible breakdown in communications here?" The answer is right in front of you.

Mme Klass wrote:
, I explained in English and in Spanish what had happened.
.., after insisting several times and telling her what had happened (several times).....
It would be nice to think that the stewardess understood more than just French, but we have no knowledge of her linguistic skills. And clearly Mme Klass is unable to converse in French, so this could represent more evidence of communication issues.

And to round it off
Mme Klass wrote:
I cannot believe that after all the harassment and abuse to which one is exposed as a woman in today's society (especially in Argentina), a hostess, above all a woman, has behaved in such a hostile and unpleasant way, wanting me to return to my seat and ignoring me later;


As a counterpoint to that, she finishes off praising the (male) purser again, the same man who is still facing possible charges....
Mme Kl;ass wrote:
The truth after this event, and still with the help and contention of Gilles (Mariotti), I do not recommend traveling in Air France and I hope I do not have to do it again


Footnote; in her deposition, the word "molestaba" appears twice, along with "molestia" once. An average English speaking person would recognise these words and immediately be very concerned, however both translators I used preferred slightly less emotive alternatives when placing it in full context.
molestar = disturb, bother, annoy, irritate, nettle, trouble, tease, pester, badger, hassle, molest, inconvenience, incommode, discommode, put out, intrude, worry
I believe those are ranked in order of usefulness, with "molest" ranked #11
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:16 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Footnote; in her deposition, the word "molestaba" appears twice, along with "molestia" once. An average English speaking person would recognise these words and immediately be very concerned, however both translators I used preferred slightly less emotive alternatives when placing it in full context.
molestar = disturb, bother, annoy, irritate, nettle, trouble, tease, pester, badger, hassle, molest, inconvenience, incommode, discommode, put out, intrude, worry
I believe those are ranked in order of usefulness, with "molest" ranked #11


Note on this, you are completelly right (I'm Spanish speaker). "molestar" translates into "to annoy" or to "to bother", and "molesting" is a false friend here and nothing to do with its meaning in English.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:32 am

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
the point I was trying to make is there are probably 300 other seats any reasonable cabin crew could have accommodated assuming there is an issue.


You mean there are probably 300 other people would could politely say no thanks I don’t want to move. You seem to have this notion that every must do whatever the passenger demands, sorry to bust you bubble that is not the case.


dtw2hyd wrote:
This purser who had total control and jurisdiction on the situation passed on the control to someone at the destination and put the entire crew at receiving end.


You have this back to front, the crew are never obligated to do anything because a passenger makes a complaint. The primary role of cabin crew is to aid ALL passengers in the event of an emergency, not to get them food, drinks, blankets, pillows, clean toilets, or intervention into personal disputes. They are not the police, they are not social workers.

I had a passenger complain that someone stole his phone while he was asleep, he wanted me to detain and search every passenger until his phone was found. I simply refused that request, there was no evidence to suggest a crime was committed. I asked if the passenger had searched his seat and personal belongings for the phone. Yes the passenger searched his seat and belongings very well, nothing was found. The crew found his phone in his seat in under 20 seconds dispite him saying it was not there and someone had stolen it.

Using your logic you would want me to take the passengers complaint at face value, and automatically treat every person on the flight as a criminal.

The crew have to be fair to everyone, and everyone is entitled to natural justice. It would seem no crew member or passenger saw the alleged offender committing sexual acts. Now after the police investigation and detaining the crew and the alleged offender, the crew and the alleged offender is released without charge.

What does that say to you ? It says to me a lack of evidence to support any criminal charge.

If that what the police have been able to establish after the fact, imagine how much the airline and crew would be exposed by if they didn’t give the alleged offender their natural justice rights and gave him the benefit of doubt as they also had a lack of evidence at the time to work on. You seem to work on the premise that if someone makes a complaint, the other party is automatically guilty, anyone who has worked in customer service or in a family court setting knows from experience there is more than one way a complaint/allegation can be looked at.

This to me is sounding more and more like the complaint is more a dissatisfaction with the AF service rather than any criminal matter. In line with that, the criminal justice system seems to have washed their hands of the matter.


I think you are reading between lines. At no point, I stated it is crew's responsibility to help her. I clearly stated "as a courtesy" or "prudent thing to do" to move her somewhere else for landing.

Unless you are saying, seating her somewhere else is unfair to alleged perp (or) to the volunteer who offered her their seat??
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:00 pm

?? 2 spoiled / slightly arrogant persons not getting what they wanted & then there was no way back ??

:snooty: :snooty:

Anyway, the crew being detained / isolated & daddy doing the interrogation. I'm sure they are very sorry about that dumb response.
:bitelip:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5313
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:07 pm

AR385 wrote:
The father was a minister over 17 years ago. No influence from him whatsoever. The passenger next to the lady was first invading her space and then started to masturbate. At that point she told the crew and then to the purser and in a typically French way was given a laptop, told to return to her seat and write a complaint. She refused and was move to a Jupseat where she remained for 8 hours. She never asked for an upgrade. Air France confirmed on an official statement most of the facts the passenger reported on the ground. And the crazy passenger that chose to masturbate was also hauled to declare before a judge.

Prior to landing she was told to move back to her seat, Naturally she refused and was then threatened by the same purser with arrest upon landing in EZE for failure to comply with a crewmember´s instruction. But of course the narrative changes when it is the "Syndicat National du Personnel Navigant Commercial" who writes a statement, victimizing the passenger and engaging in character assasination. and protecting above all, the crew. Sorry but AF dropped the ball on this one and the worst aspects of its cabin crew were in full display.


This is the version of the lady and this is totally bullshit.

- She DID asked for a free upgrade to J Class and made a scandal in the plane because she was answered « no ».
- The Y cabin was not full. She was proposed by the crew another seat in Y after she complained about the guy next to her « trying to touch her ». She never talked about him « masturbating » at this moment of the flight.
And if even he was really masturbating, when then she didn’t change seat ?
- The story she was left on tha julpseat for 8 hours is simply ridiculous and totally stupid. Whatever the reputation of AF crews can be, true ou not, you will not find a single crew anywhere that would leave a paying passenger seating on a jumpseat for 8 hours. It doesn’t exists. Even on AF.
- The passenger seating next to this Lady, was also arrested and questioned by the Police at EZE airport. He was released with no charges after a few minutes. Why ?
- « The father was a minister over 17 years ago. No influence from him whatsoever «  .... sure ! So what was he doing at the court the next day when the crew was questionned there ? What was the reason of his presence ?
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1767
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:59 pm

FlySSC;
Whilst I agree that AR385's post contains many errors, and plenty of contentious statements with questionable "facts", your own post contains possible errors too.

Can you tell me where you are getting your information from?

- « The father was a minister over 17 years ago. No influence from him whatsoever «  .... sure ! So what was he doing at the court the next day when the crew was questionned there ? What was the reason of his presence ?

I can answer that one; he is a respected attorney, and he was in court in a legitimate capacity to represent his client (who is also his daughter)
Whilst the Argentine Justice system will claim total impartiality, the truth is that because Klass is so highly respected, Judges will listen to him with more attention.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13989
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I think you are reading between lines. At no point, I stated it is crew's responsibility to help her. I clearly stated "as a courtesy" or "prudent thing to do" to move her somewhere else for landing.

Unless you are saying, seating her somewhere else is unfair to alleged perp (or) to the volunteer who offered her their seat??


You said the crew had to control and jurisdiction over the matter.

The news report I read this morning had the complaint not sitting next to the alledged offender for landing, one row behind.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7103
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:32 pm

FlySSC wrote:
The Y cabin was not full. She was proposed by the crew another seat in Y after she complained about the guy next to her « trying to touch her ». She never talked about him « masturbating » at this moment of the flight.


She wrote in her complaint on AF tablet his hands were inside his pants moving(credit: SheikhDjibouti's translation). He may be scratching his balls and startled when she woke up and she thought he was pleasuring himself, That may be debatable, but she never complained is a completely false statement.

Also, you throw another variable into the mix by saying Y was not full. All previous reports suggest entire flight was full. Can you reconfirm?

One thing is sure, with so much technology there is no freaking way to translate correctly or easily.

zeke wrote:
You said the crew had to control and jurisdiction over the matter.


Yes, I did, in the context of helping her, not per some ICAO regulation.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:20 pm

757SanCam wrote:
Seems simple here, there were no upgrades available, this person thinks that she's more important than others, and by making a big scene and having AF employees detained, the answer is obvious, put her on a do not fly list for AF, she can take her sense of importance to other airlines.


This woman is a hazard to ALL carriers. What would stop her from doing this to IB, BA, LH, AA, UA, DL, AC etc. All carriers should band together and deny her travel...restrict her to AR only!!

As crew, would you want to deny her boarding knowing what is awaiting you upon arrival into EZE. No way. This "thing" needs to take a seat, in Argentina. Disgusting disgraceful behavior.

I like Argentina, but its things like this that really annoy.
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