777-500er
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LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:01 pm

From routesonline.com

From 28OCT18 to 30MAR19, the A380 aircraft will enter service on following long-haul routes from Munich, part of the LH's seasonal aircraft adjustment:

Munich – Miami (A330-300 operates in W17; A340-600 operates Frankfurt – Miami)
Munich – San Francisco (A340-600 operates Frankfurt – San Francisco)
Munich – Shanghai Pu Dong (A340-600 operates Frankfurt – Shanghai Pu Dong)
 
airbazar
Posts: 8752
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:16 pm

Wow! A333 -> A380 on MUC-MIA is a huge capacity upgrade.
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:18 pm

I'm not sure if it's 'more'. S18 ex-MUC A380 routes (LAX PEK HKG) seems no longer A380 after 28OCT18.
 
NichCage
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:35 pm

I do recall Lufthansa announcing A380 service from MUC to LAX, HKG, and PEK. However, HKG and PEK will get the A359 and I assume when more A359's are delivered LAX will get it to.

MUC-MIA going from an A333/A346 to an A380 is a big capacity increase. Is the market really that big to handle an A380?

I find it kind of shocking the A380 will be flying MUC-SFO. Lufthansa has flown the A380 on FRA-SFO ever since 2011 I believe, and it really performs well on the route. Going from an A380 to an A346 on FRA-SFO for Lufthansa will be an big drop of seats they will offer on the route. Also, FRA-SFO has been losing a lot of capacity as well I believe as UA disconnected the second daily flight between the two cities, along with the 744 gone on the route. Now it's a 772 I believe.

MUC-PVG is going from an A346 to an A380. What a big capacity increase.

I never though LH would fly the A380 at MUC ever.
 
Kilopond
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:08 pm

Lufthansa obviously tries to secure as many slots as it can at Frankfurt and defend that fortress hub. Every now and then that airport gets new slots. Before the opening of the new runway in 2011 those slots had been capped at 81 per hour, now they are at 104 and it is expected that they will finally rise to around 130.

Now there are the IATA rules: if the demand for new slots exceeds the supply, 50% are reserved for new entrants, while hub carriers are entitled to the other half. But any slot Lufthansa doesn't claim from her budget would be allocated to new entrants like Ryanair.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 pm

MIAMUC to an A380 is an interesting choice. It’s a huge local market but LH has not been flying it year-round (although traditionally LH does fly it partially during the summer, usually through June and then pick it up in October).
a.
 
777-500er
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:57 pm

NichCage wrote:
I do recall Lufthansa announcing A380 service from MUC to LAX, HKG, and PEK. However, HKG and PEK will get the A359 and I assume when more A359's are delivered LAX will get it to.

MUC-MIA going from an A333/A346 to an A380 is a big capacity increase. Is the market really that big to handle an A380?

I find it kind of shocking the A380 will be flying MUC-SFO. Lufthansa has flown the A380 on FRA-SFO ever since 2011 I believe, and it really performs well on the route. Going from an A380 to an A346 on FRA-SFO for Lufthansa will be an big drop of seats they will offer on the route. Also, FRA-SFO has been losing a lot of capacity as well I believe as UA disconnected the second daily flight between the two cities, along with the 744 gone on the route. Now it's a 772 I believe.

MUC-PVG is going from an A346 to an A380. What a big capacity increase.

I never though LH would fly the A380 at MUC ever.


UA is currently flying the 77W on FRA-SFO. Second daily is seasonal: March-October. Next March it returns as a 77W. So UA will be flying the flight with the same capacity as the 2 744s from this summer. Shifting the A380 to MUC is just shifting transit traffic. MUC is actually a more efficient transit hub and honestly for summer leisure traffic offers better connections to some key markets on the Mediterranean.
 
planecrazy6762
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:11 pm

This move is seriously annoying me. Lufthansa is really playing its cards against FRA and they are literally de-hubbing my home base. It seems the centres of gravity for its premium long haul products A350 and A380 are or will be both in MUC and removed away from FRA. Even routes that seem to be working very well for the whale jet like FRA-SFO, FRA-PVG and FRA-MIA are downgraded to A346 starting NW18 which means a capacity drop of 40% per flight. They start by cutting FRA-LAX, FRA-HKG and FRA-PEK in NS18 and then take away the next 3 routes in NW18. They can do this as indeed much of the traffic on these routes is connecting through the hubs and fed by their network which is bipolar and focused on FRA and MUC. The argument that this may be done to secure extra slots in FRA away from new entrants (FR and in 2018 possibly U2 after the AB demise) does sound intriguing: I would expect additional services on smaller metal then. At least on some trunk routes I can see this when considering the new FRA-SAN (A343) route to complement FRA-LAX (A346) and a then year round FRA-SJC (A343) route complementing FRA-SFO (A346). They are actually coming back to serve Shenyang 3x/wk (A343, possibly relieving FRA-PEK on A346) and one may see a capacity upgrade on FRA-TPA and FRA-MCO to relieve FRA-MIA. After the impressive 2017 rush of FR into FRA with 7 jets based here today (10 by NS18) and around 20 destinations served it is remarkable how LH is trying to fight back taking slots and serving destinations that had until now been confined to MUC before (GLA, TSR, CLJ, KIV).
 
LH779
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:34 pm

I highly doubt LH is moving more A380s to MUC. It sounds more like they plan to use the 5 aircraft that fly to LAX, PEK and HGK in the summer on other routes from MUC in the winter.

And come on, dehubbing FRA:
You still have 9 of 14 A380s
32 747s
5 A340-600 (starting next summer)
18 A340-300
and 11 A330s
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 am

LH779 wrote:
I highly doubt LH is moving more A380s to MUC. It sounds more like they plan to use the 5 aircraft that fly to LAX, PEK and HGK in the summer on other routes from MUC in the winter.

And come on, dehubbing FRA:
You still have 9 of 14 A380s
32 747s
5 A340-600 (starting next summer)
18 A340-300
and 11 A330s


I would not call it dehubbing, but LH is moving A380 to MUC and is replacing them with A340-600 and I assume later with A350 in FRA
 
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william
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:03 am

FRA has night time curfews and Munich does not, right or wrong? If so, I can see strengthening MUC and place holding FRA as hubs. Which gives you more operational freedom?
 
jfk777
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:46 am

Interesting they would move the FRA to MIA A380 to Munich when The whale has been flying the route yearly for 5 years now and before seasonly. LH has not had such a small plane from FRA to MIA since the DC-10 which was 25 years ago. FRA to MIA was flown before the A380 by 747-200 then 747-400 and maybe a 747-8 a some point.
 
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SQ22
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:55 am

william wrote:
FRA has night time curfews and Munich does not, right or wrong? If so, I can see strengthening MUC and place holding FRA as hubs. Which gives you more operational freedom?


Between midnight and 5:00 am there is a curfew for passenger aircraft in MUC with some limitations before and thereafter.

https://www.munich-airport.com/night-flight-264466
 
lvs
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:06 am

Is there any difference between the MUC and FRA curfew?
 
planecrazy6762
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:46 pm

The curfew in FRA is from 11:00 pm to 5:00 am. Exceptions are granted when extreme weather causes delays and for aircraft running late on their return leg to homebase, i.e. when rerouting/diversion would mess up their schedule on the following day.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Update: on Saturday, March 17, the first LH A380 will be transferred from FRA to MUC.

There will be several events and staring from March 25, regular A380-operations from MUC will start.
Source: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/flughafen ... 92530.html

PS.: I tried to post this in the initial thread "Lufthansa to base 5 A380 at MUC" but it seems this thread has been renamed into "New Lufthansa intercontinental routes": viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1365635&hilit=LH+base+A380+MUC
This thread was started later but IMHO the thread title is confusing, since LH is not planning to move "more" A380s to MUC.
 
TC957
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:57 pm

Will LH operate the A380 transfer flights as one of their multiple scheduled flights on that FRA-MUC route ? Might as well make some money flying it between the two rather than an empty ferry flight.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:40 pm

I assume that there are several reasons for the move of A380 from FRA to MUC and the concentration of the A350 at MUC.

- LH is annoyed with FRA, the move by FRA to offer Ryanair reduced rates did not go over well with LH.
- FRA is far bigger in freight than MUC. It makes perhaps sense to move the A380 carrying mainly passengers to MUC and keep the frames that are in reality combies in FRA.
- FRA is that hub it is, because LH made it that way. The Munich metropolitan area is both richer and slightly bigger in population than the Rhein-Main metropolitan area. Perhaps more of a rich O&D in Munich and more transit in FRA.
The far biggest metropolitan area in Germany is Rhine-Ruhr, the area around DUS, also Cologne is counted with this area, # 2 is Berlin/Brandenburg, # 3 is Munich, # 4 is Rhine-Main with Frankfurt, # 5 is Stuttgart and # 6 is Hamburg.
 
jfk777
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:36 pm

The most telling Lufthansa decision is not the A380 moves to Munich but that all the A350-900 are based in MUC and none in FRA.
 
hoons90
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:21 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The most telling Lufthansa decision is not the A380 moves to Munich but that all the A350-900 are based in MUC and none in FRA.

That's where most of the A340-600s are based, which are being replaced by said A350-900s. Also means that a lot of markets ex-MUC will lose year round F class service, save for SFO and PVG.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
itisi
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:00 am

I'll be taking the 380 from HKG to MUC and back in AUG
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
hoons90
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:07 am

planecrazy6762 wrote:
This move is seriously annoying me. Lufthansa is really playing its cards against FRA and they are literally de-hubbing my home base. It seems the centres of gravity for its premium long haul products A350 and A380 are or will be both in MUC and removed away from FRA. Even routes that seem to be working very well for the whale jet like FRA-SFO, FRA-PVG and FRA-MIA are downgraded to A346 starting NW18 which means a capacity drop of 40% per flight. They start by cutting FRA-LAX, FRA-HKG and FRA-PEK in NS18 and then take away the next 3 routes in NW18. They can do this as indeed much of the traffic on these routes is connecting through the hubs and fed by their network which is bipolar and focused on FRA and MUC. The argument that this may be done to secure extra slots in FRA away from new entrants (FR and in 2018 possibly U2 after the AB demise) does sound intriguing: I would expect additional services on smaller metal then. At least on some trunk routes I can see this when considering the new FRA-SAN (A343) route to complement FRA-LAX (A346) and a then year round FRA-SJC (A343) route complementing FRA-SFO (A346). They are actually coming back to serve Shenyang 3x/wk (A343, possibly relieving FRA-PEK on A346) and one may see a capacity upgrade on FRA-TPA and FRA-MCO to relieve FRA-MIA. After the impressive 2017 rush of FR into FRA with 7 jets based here today (10 by NS18) and around 20 destinations served it is remarkable how LH is trying to fight back taking slots and serving destinations that had until now been confined to MUC before (GLA, TSR, CLJ, KIV).


Interestingly the seasonal second daily frequency to LAX (450/451) is on a 74H, while the primary one (456/457) is on the 346.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:11 am

hoons90 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The most telling Lufthansa decision is not the A380 moves to Munich but that all the A350-900 are based in MUC and none in FRA.

That's where most of the A340-600s are based, which are being replaced by said A350-900s. Also means that a lot of markets ex-MUC will lose year round F class service, save for SFO and PVG.


But the A380 moving to MUC seem to be replaced by A340-600 moving to FRA.
 
hoons90
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:20 am

mjoelnir wrote:
hoons90 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The most telling Lufthansa decision is not the A380 moves to Munich but that all the A350-900 are based in MUC and none in FRA.

That's where most of the A340-600s are based, which are being replaced by said A350-900s. Also means that a lot of markets ex-MUC will lose year round F class service, save for SFO and PVG.


But the A380 moving to MUC seem to be replaced by A340-600 moving to FRA.


What will eventually replace those 5 A340-600s at FRA? I guess the 777X? It would be nice if they could stick around until then.

That way, if they swap out the 346 on my JFK-MUC flight this October, I still have another chance to get it :)
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
jfk777
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:10 am

We don;t know all the reasons why A380 are being moved to Munich but a significant percentage of the A380 passengers connect over the hub so they will connect at MUC instead of FRA. The layout of MUC is much better then FRA. MUC is only about 25 years old so it was designed for long haul widebody jets. Are the rest of the A380 staying in FRa or moving to MUC ? I would love to know.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:50 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I assume that there are several reasons for the move of A380 from FRA to MUC and the concentration of the A350 at MUC.

- LH is annoyed with FRA, the move by FRA to offer Ryanair reduced rates did not go over well with LH.
- FRA is far bigger in freight than MUC. It makes perhaps sense to move the A380 carrying mainly passengers to MUC and keep the frames that are in reality combies in FRA.
- FRA is that hub it is, because LH made it that way. The Munich metropolitan area is both richer and slightly bigger in population than the Rhein-Main metropolitan area. Perhaps more of a rich O&D in Munich and more transit in FRA.
The far biggest metropolitan area in Germany is Rhine-Ruhr, the area around DUS, also Cologne is counted with this area, # 2 is Berlin/Brandenburg, # 3 is Munich, # 4 is Rhine-Main with Frankfurt, # 5 is Stuttgart and # 6 is Hamburg.

  • FRA is actually much more O&D than MUC, as evidenced by the many more international carriers at FRA than at MUC.
  • FRA is much easier to reach from the Rhine-Ruhr, Rhine-Main and Stuttgart metros. MUC's connection to rail is horrible and driving to MUC from any of these places is just not an option. From Hamburg and Berlin you're likely to board a connection flight there anyway so no advantage for MUC or FRA.
  • LH only recently invested a lot into FRA for the new A380-capable pier.
  • FRA is building T3 for primarily non-LH group airlines. Again showing the strong O&D.
  • MUC is very likely to receive the new runway soon. Construction may start as soon as after the next election in October, making MUC far better suited for connections. They may want to shift more transit to MUC to test the waters now.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:36 am

jfk777 wrote:
We don;t know all the reasons why A380 are being moved to Munich but a significant percentage of the A380 passengers connect over the hub so they will connect at MUC instead of FRA. The layout of MUC is much better then FRA. MUC is only about 25 years old so it was designed for long haul widebody jets. Are the rest of the A380 staying in FRa or moving to MUC ? I would love to know.


LH is trying to give pressure to FRA authority as they are unhappy with Ryanair's reduced rate.
One can expect that MUC's number of passenger will be growth while FRA's growth will be slow down
(i.e. FRA is losing money they should have gained)
 
Blerg
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:49 am

Can the A380 park at any gate at MUC or do they have special gates for them?

By the way, are there any plans to refurbish the old Frankfurt terminals? They are getting quite ... depressing.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 266
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:07 am

Blerg wrote:
Can the A380 park at any gate at MUC or do they have special gates for them?

By the way, are there any plans to refurbish the old Frankfurt terminals? They are getting quite ... depressing.

I thought T1 at FRA was refurbished a few years ago? Then again, it didn’t look/feel much different when I used it four years ago than it did when I used it during the 80s and 90s when I was a kid, with the exception of less cigarette smell.
A313 343 B703 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:18 am

I once had a flight out of the Z Gates at Frankfurt: The main deck of a 747 felt significantly less claustrophobic then the hauls of that terminal
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:26 am

T1 at FRA just has been refurbished and a new Pier for WB has been builld. FRA is constantly upgraded.
What happens in MUC is simply an upgrade from secondary hub to prime hub on equal Terms with FRA.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:33 am

jfk777 wrote:
Are the rest of the A380 staying in FRa or moving to MUC ? I would love to know.

The remaining nine A380s will stay in FRA.
 
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terrificturk
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Blerg wrote:
Can the A380 park at any gate at MUC or do they have special gates for them?.


Both T1 and T2 are A380 compatible for many years... T2 was designed and built with the A380 in mind and T1 (C Gates) was upgraded later for EK... now with teh general revamp of T1 coming, I guess more gates at T1 will be A380 ready thereafter. T2 Satellite also has A380 compatible gates.
 
hoons90
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:21 am

https://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/ seems to have updated, indicating which specific A380s will go to MUC and which specific A346s will go to FRA. Looks like FRA will actually get 7 A346s despite MUC only getting 5 A380s.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
Blotto
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:23 am

hoons90 wrote:
https://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/ seems to have updated, indicating which specific A380s will go to MUC and which specific A346s will go to FRA. Looks like FRA will actually get 7 A346s despite MUC only getting 5 A380s.


FRA will get 7 from MUC, however MUC is getting two A346 (-HH/-HU) back from winter storage.
 
jfk777
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:55 am

hoons90 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The most telling Lufthansa decision is not the A380 moves to Munich but that all the A350-900 are based in MUC and none in FRA.

That's where most of the A340-600s are based, which are being replaced by said A350-900s. Also means that a lot of markets ex-MUC will lose year round F class service, save for SFO and PVG.


LH is downsizing First Class service with their new Business Class coming on the 777-9. First Class is reduced to the A380 and 747-8 fleet. Business Class has reached such a high level paying passengers for it are very rare. I just wonder how many of LH's First Passengers are "paying" vs. upgrades ?
 
r2rho
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:27 pm

Nobody seems to be stating the obvious, which is that FRA now has enough free slots to offer thanks to the new runway, whereas MUC is slot-restricted and saturated at peak hours. It makes sense therefore to upgauge at MUC, while going for smaller aircraft and frequency at FRA.
As has been said, MUC is now becoming a hub on the same level as FRA, and no longer a secondary hub.
Eventually IMO MUC will get the 3rd runway, but that will take a couple years.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: LH moving more A380s to MUC

Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:46 am

LH presented one of their A380s in MUC with a sightseeing flight:
Image
Source: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/oberbayer ... r-100.html

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