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BENAir01
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DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:32 pm

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... c-flights/
In order to make more flights available for expanded Delta One transcon services, they will be downgrading 3 transatlantic flights to their domestic economy seats and selling them as Premium economy class.
Related to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379153
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
RJNUT
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:37 pm

so you could get a pretty good "Icelandair" Saga class type experience, well priced as premium economy ,to three TATL destinations this summer. I am going to play around with some pricing options .
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:04 pm

That's what happens when you only have so many former TWA-type planes on which to do Delta One. But why not take 8-10 A321s and configure them in a similar manner? Such a plane would probably have roughly the same configuration in seats, using a configuration close to B6's in Y but with a 31"-32" seat width. They could then be in the same pool of Delta One narrow-body service routes domestically.

That said, KEF was also done with a domestic 757-200 last year as well (in 2015, the route was flown with a 757-300).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:10 pm

None of those markets really need a truly premium cabin product or experience. These are mainly holiday destinations and not heavy on business travel so kind of makes sense to reassign the DeltaOne equipped 757's to markets where there is real demand and they can charge a premium.
 
dangrad
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:51 pm

Don't forget with the segments being sub-8 hours there's no need for a pilot rest seat, thus the flight CAN be flown without an FAR 117 eligible rest seat.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:18 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
None of those markets really need a truly premium cabin product or experience. These are mainly holiday destinations and not heavy on business travel so kind of makes sense to reassign the DeltaOne equipped 757's to markets where there is real demand and they can charge a premium.


JFK-SNN on EI has flat bed.

And now, JFK-KEF on DL is less comfortable than FI. How many people are going to pay $2100 round trip on a 6 hour flight with no lie flat bed.
 
ahj2000
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:15 am

The fates don’t seem any cheaper so really service and seating go down for the same price. Win-win-win for Delta
-Andrés Juánez
 
RJNUT
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:47 am

I would pay it for KEF, but probably look elsewhere to SNN
 
BENAir01
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:18 am

Yeah, the issue is they’re still charging business class fares.
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
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intotheair
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:06 am

Also worth pointing out that UA is also putting domestic planes on some TATL routes next summer. The domestic 777 will be on EWR-DUB and a few other lower yielding routes. The key difference, though, is that UA's domestic 777 still has lie flats up front and can be justifiably sold as J, while it's quite a downgrade in back with 3-4-3 slimlines, PDE and no PTV, and of course that pesky call button problem.
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compensateme
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:41 am

tphuang wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
None of those markets really need a truly premium cabin product or experience. These are mainly holiday destinations and not heavy on business travel so kind of makes sense to reassign the DeltaOne equipped 757's to markets where there is real demand and they can charge a premium.


JFK-SNN on EI has flat bed.

And now, JFK-KEF on DL is less comfortable than FI. How many people are going to pay $2100 round trip on a 6 hour flight with no lie flat bed.


JFK-KEF (as well as MSP-KEF) operated with domestic configured 757 this past summer.

I doubt there's much demand for a premium, lie flat bed in these markets. The potential revenue gained from 31 additional seats + that of 20 "premium" economy seats likely far outweighs that lost from the sale of a true business class fare in these markets.

Whatever fares are available today are irrelevant (the market will eventually correct itself) as is whatever product the competition is offering. On many routes, I can travel in the Big Front Seat on Spirit for less than the cheapest ticket on Delta yet DL doesn't care. Same's true of the budget business class on WOW/Icelandair. This isn't the 2000s, DL isn't trying to be everything to everyone.
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:36 am

I think this makes total sense. These routes are all very leisure heavy and Delta was probably selling mostly upgrades or selling the heaviest discounted fares. Its probably easier to sell more seats at a lower price. Probably very few people were willing to pay $2,000 for a short lie flat anyway to these leisure markets. Its probably easier to sell seats at $1,500 for non lie flat. The transcons similar distance i think command can sell the lie flats much easier and for more.
 
CONTACREW
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:47 am

intotheair wrote:
Also worth pointing out that UA is also putting domestic planes on some TATL routes next summer. The domestic 777 will be on EWR-DUB and a few other lower yielding routes. The key difference, though, is that UA's domestic 777 still has lie flats up front and can be justifiably sold as J, while it's quite a downgrade in back with 3-4-3 slimlines, PDE and no PTV, and of course that pesky call button problem.


The domestic 777 will only be on EWR-DUB all other TATL/TPAC flights will remain with international equipped aircraft (75B/76P/76A/76C/76N/78V/78Z/78U/77Y/77Q/77T)
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
quiet1
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:04 am

CONTACREW wrote:
The domestic 777 will only be on EWR-DUB all other TATL/TPAC flights will remain with international equipped aircraft (75B/76P/76A/76C/76N/78V/78Z/78U/77Y/77Q/77T)


Why three 787 designations (V,Z,U)? Other than obvious 787-8 and 787-9, what's the third differentiator?
 
CONTACREW
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:14 am

quiet1 wrote:
CONTACREW wrote:
The domestic 777 will only be on EWR-DUB all other TATL/TPAC flights will remain with international equipped aircraft (75B/76P/76A/76C/76N/78V/78Z/78U/77Y/77Q/77T)


Why three 787 designations (V,Z,U)? Other than obvious 787-8 and 787-9, what's the third differentiator?


78V (787-8) sub CO FAs
78Z (787-9) sub CO FAs
78U (787-9) sub UA FAs
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
United1
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:32 am

CONTACREW wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Also worth pointing out that UA is also putting domestic planes on some TATL routes next summer. The domestic 777 will be on EWR-DUB and a few other lower yielding routes. The key difference, though, is that UA's domestic 777 still has lie flats up front and can be justifiably sold as J, while it's quite a downgrade in back with 3-4-3 slimlines, PDE and no PTV, and of course that pesky call button problem.


The domestic 777 will only be on EWR-DUB all other TATL/TPAC flights will remain with international equipped aircraft (75B/76P/76A/76C/76N/78V/78Z/78U/77Y/77Q/77T)


For the most part the "Carol of the Bells" is no longer a problem....:)

I don't think DL eliminating J class from KEF/PDL/SNN is really all that big of a deal as none are that high yielding of a destination. KEF certainly won't be an issue as long as they can still carry fish. I do hope yield management discounts the seats up front a bit as the blogger pointed out they are still pricing it as if they were offering D1 on the route.
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mjoelnir
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think this makes total sense. These routes are all very leisure heavy and Delta was probably selling mostly upgrades or selling the heaviest discounted fares. Its probably easier to sell more seats at a lower price. Probably very few people were willing to pay $2,000 for a short lie flat anyway to these leisure markets. Its probably easier to sell seats at $1,500 for non lie flat. The transcons similar distance i think command can sell the lie flats much easier and for more.


Or you have no lie flat competition and sell the non lie flt seats still for USD 2,000, as it seems Delta is doing.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 pm

tphuang wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
None of those markets really need a truly premium cabin product or experience. These are mainly holiday destinations and not heavy on business travel so kind of makes sense to reassign the DeltaOne equipped 757's to markets where there is real demand and they can charge a premium.


JFK-SNN on EI has flat bed.

And now, JFK-KEF on DL is less comfortable than FI. How many people are going to pay $2100 round trip on a 6 hour flight with no lie flat bed.


JFK-SNN is primarily a leisure market. EI has a flat bed yes, but they have a smaller fleet for TATL (A330/757) and no sub-fleet.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:10 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
None of those markets really need a truly premium cabin product or experience. These are mainly holiday destinations and not heavy on business travel so kind of makes sense to reassign the DeltaOne equipped 757's to markets where there is real demand and they can charge a premium.


JFK-SNN on EI has flat bed.

And now, JFK-KEF on DL is less comfortable than FI. How many people are going to pay $2100 round trip on a 6 hour flight with no lie flat bed.


JFK-SNN is primarily a leisure market. EI has a flat bed yes, but they have a smaller fleet for TATL (A330/757) and no sub-fleet.

And jfk Las is not a leisure market? Lol, clearly there is premium cabin here and Delta made the decision to fight b6 on a shorter more leisure market.
 
FSDan
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:08 pm

This thread is somewhat misleading... The only route actually seeing a downgrade is JFK-SNN (which was operated on a low-J 767-300ER last summer). As far as I can remember, DL's U.S.-KEF routes have always been operated by domestic 757s. And JFK-PDL is not being "downgraded" because it's a new route and has been loaded on the domestic 757 since day 1.

And yes, I absolutely am inclined to believe that there is more high-yield traffic on JFK-LAS than on JFK-SNN.
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tphuang
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:42 pm

FSDan wrote:
This thread is somewhat misleading... The only route actually seeing a downgrade is JFK-SNN (which was operated on a low-J 767-300ER last summer). As far as I can remember, DL's U.S.-KEF routes have always been operated by domestic 757s. And JFK-PDL is not being "downgraded" because it's a new route and has been loaded on the domestic 757 since day 1.

And yes, I absolutely am inclined to believe that there is more high-yield traffic on JFK-LAS than on JFK-SNN.

Those high roller traffic are getting there on private jet. Corporate traffic on JFK-LAS are not going to allow for lie flat.

For regular high yielding wall street types, paying $600 O/W might be okay, but paying $1500 is too much.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:32 pm

Wonder if one can use one of DL's regional upgrade certificates on these routes as opposed to a global upgrade certificate currently needed?
 
Galwayman
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:43 pm

That works fine for SNN , not worth the money or miles for business class , the flights too short ...
 
commavia
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think this makes total sense. These routes are all very leisure heavy and Delta was probably selling mostly upgrades or selling the heaviest discounted fares. Its probably easier to sell more seats at a lower price. Probably very few people were willing to pay $2,000 for a short lie flat anyway to these leisure markets. Its probably easier to sell seats at $1,500 for non lie flat. The transcons similar distance i think command can sell the lie flats much easier and for more.


I agree - this seems quite sensible, for both Delta in these markets and United with its aforementioned EWR-DUB S18 777 scheduling

These all appear to represent very large, but also very leisure-heavy, routes where (a) paid premium demand is clearly far below that of larger transatlantic markets and (b) competition is relatively less intense. In that context, why not reallocate a relatively costly and scarce asset (a premium-configured airplane) to another market where paid premium demand is greater and competition is relatively more intense? And, alas, as others have already mentioned, it seems that Delta has already proven the viability of such an approach with its 757 scheduling into KEF in 2017. Smart move.

Side note - this reminds me of AA's relatively short live (just a few years) experiment with flying domestic 757s BOS-MAN and BOS-SNN. Needless to say, those 757s back then had a far inferior onboard product compared to Delta's domestic 757s today.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:12 am

tphuang wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

JFK-SNN on EI has flat bed.

And now, JFK-KEF on DL is less comfortable than FI. How many people are going to pay $2100 round trip on a 6 hour flight with no lie flat bed.


JFK-SNN is primarily a leisure market. EI has a flat bed yes, but they have a smaller fleet for TATL (A330/757) and no sub-fleet.

And jfk Las is not a leisure market? Lol, clearly there is premium cabin here and Delta made the decision to fight b6 on a shorter more leisure market.


JFK-LAS is more than just a leisure market. LAS hosts hundreds of conventions supporting everything from retail to financial services, technology, entertainment, and real estate. It's also a business destination in its own right for many reasons. It's not just a bucket/spade destination. And as others have said, JFK-KEF and MSP-KEF has operated with domestic configured 757s in the past. JFK-SNN is being downgraded from a 763 to a 752 and Ponta Delgado is a brand new route and that is definitely a leisure market. Portugal is a hot tourist destination at the moment.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:19 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

JFK-SNN is primarily a leisure market. EI has a flat bed yes, but they have a smaller fleet for TATL (A330/757) and no sub-fleet.

And jfk Las is not a leisure market? Lol, clearly there is premium cabin here and Delta made the decision to fight b6 on a shorter more leisure market.


JFK-LAS is more than just a leisure market. LAS hosts hundreds of conventions supporting everything from retail to financial services, technology, entertainment, and real estate. It's also a business destination in its own right for many reasons. It's not just a bucket/spade destination. And as others have said, JFK-KEF and MSP-KEF has operated with domestic configured 757s in the past. JFK-SNN is being downgraded from a 763 to a 752 and Ponta Delgado is a brand new route and that is definitely a leisure market. Portugal is a hot tourist destination at the moment.


So the comparison here is JFK-LAS vs JFK-SNN.

Having watched mint sales on JFK-LAS for a few weeks. There are days where J seats go like hot cakes and then there are days where they can barely fill even fill a few seats. It's not a market with consistent demand like even JFK-SEA. The fact that you use conventions as the example is a good indication of that. Just looking at vegas strip hotel prices, you can see when the demand are high and low. There is a pretty big contrast in hotel prices between days when a lot of tourists come in with money and other days.

And all of my observation comes from a price point of $600 where a lot of people can pay out of pocket. If Delta is actually selling lie flat for $1500 and recliner at $600 (which is what they are pricing for May), I really doubt anyone is going to pay $1500 (maybe they anticipate corporations will buy it at some corporate rate). Either way, there are days where no one is going to pay even $600 for lie flats. By putting domestic F on JFK-SNN when EI has full lie flat on the market at same price, who is going to be paying $2500 R/T on DL? At least JFK-SNN is far enough where corporate policies allow for J seats. For most corporations, JFK-LAS isn't going to qualify for paid F seating.
 
BestWestern
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:30 pm

I get DL putting domestic F into Shannon - I had the joys of DL F on the 764 a few years back with my AF platinum card free upgrade.

United’s downgrade on the Dublin Newark service I don’t understand, because Dublin has quite a high proportion of corporate traffic, so expect a proper business class cabin.

Dublin isn’t the low yielding market used to be, so I suppose United is trying to add Y capacity rather than worry about corporate business traffic. Their product just doesn’t compete against DL, EI or even Norwegian.
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airbazar
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:56 pm

tphuang wrote:
And jfk Las is not a leisure market? Lol, clearly there is premium cabin here and Delta made the decision to fight b6 on a shorter more leisure market.

Las Vegas is one of the World's top convention destinations. Yes it's a big leisure market but it also has a lot of business travel.
 
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airzim
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:16 pm

BestWestern wrote:
United’s downgrade on the Dublin Newark service I don’t understand, because Dublin has quite a high proportion of corporate traffic, so expect a proper business class cabin.

Dublin isn’t the low yielding market used to be, so I suppose United is trying to add Y capacity rather than worry about corporate business traffic. Their product just doesn’t compete against DL, EI or even Norwegian.


United is not downgrading Dublin. They are still running J class with lie flat seats. The same seats which are plying the Pacific and Atlantic today on sUA 777 and 767s.

Arguably the product is not as robust as DL or EI, but Norwegian? Hardly.
 
BestWestern
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:00 pm

How is a non IFE equipped trans-Atlantic aircraft not a downgrade. This is 2018, not 2002.
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United1
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Re: DL downgrading seats on JFK-KEF/PDL/SNN

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:31 pm

BestWestern wrote:
How is a non IFE equipped trans-Atlantic aircraft not a downgrade. This is 2018, not 2002.


The aircraft has IFE...J class has AVOD at every seat and Y has PDE.
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