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LAXintl
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Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Dublin based Amedeo, with 12 A380 aircraft with under management and a further 20 on order plans to apply for an air operator’s license next year in order to offer ACMI charter leasing to airlines from 2022 onwards

Mark Lapidus, Amedeo chief executive believes that the best way to exploit the company’s assets is now no longer to just lease aircraft to airlines but to operate the A380 directly under what he believes could be a new model for air transport.

Lapidus believes that the air transport industry is ripe for disruption, with aircraft ownership and operation likely to become secondary to the brand-led services, price and convenience that airlines or others can offer to passengers.
He is proposing to offer space on the world’s biggest passenger aircraft to a club of airlines and non-traditional aviation players, who would retain control over sale and distribution of tickets, but use his cabin crew. 

Amedeo plans airline-for-hire service using its fleet of A380s
https://www.ft.com/content/cb8209ec-cd1 ... 4ce08b24dc

=

Its interesting that Airbus was pitching this same concept in mid 2000s but no airline was interested in taking on such leased time-shared A380 capacity for the fact that branding was very important and having a generic plane and 3rd party crew did not allow an airline to properly control the brand and product delivery.
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mercure1
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:28 pm

Its the proverbial phrase - when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

I dont see the 20 new A380s ever arriving, but more case of Amadeo trying to figure out what to do with existing fleet when they come off lease. Seems like 2022 is that critical date.
Not sure the world needs a 3rd A380 charter operator after MAS and HiFly.
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bigjku
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:29 pm

When do they start to get planes back from their original leases? They said 10-12 year terms back in 2011 but didn’t specify when they started in the article I found. It initially strikes me as they don’t have a good secondary market and are trying to make something work.

That seems more likely than them having a great idea at this time. Just my opinion though.
 
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:37 pm

bigjku wrote:
When do they start to get planes back from their original leases?


Amedeo's oldest A380 asset is MSN 16, delivered to Emirates in 2010 and should come off lease in 2022. Another 2 should come off lease in 2023 followed by 5 more in 2024.

See http://www.amedeo.aero/portfolio/
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toxtethogrady
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:50 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Lapidus believes that the air transport industry is ripe for disruption


I think that's what Emirates is all about.

Are we about to see Dublin redevelop itself into an A380 hub?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:51 pm

Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:55 pm

A fleet of ready to go 380/340/747 or 8 could be useful. When a nursing home needs to evacuate before or after hurricane (etc), it can be life saving to evacuate residents, staff, their children and pets to one location ( "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show" song by Neil Diamond: ... Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies .. ) After other climate or human disasters some fast available transit is important. I could even see some subsidies.
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Amiga500
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.


I was thinking more short term.

Big football matches, tournaments, sporting events. Things that produce massive peaks over a few days in demand.

A longer term demand would be the World Cup, a shorter term would be the Champions League final. In both cases, chartered A380s could prove a very useful way to move the massive amounts of people while making good profit.


If there isn't demand for it Mon-Thurs, then park it. If its done 10-15 years, then the lower airframe cost should make that more palatable.
 
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zeke
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:04 pm

Maybe this goes with that


“We are currently seeking expressions of interest for current and qualified EASA A380 Captains & First Officers who are interested in joining a new operation in Spring 2018. This incredible opportunity is offering a commuting contract and the chance to operate on behalf of a well-known European based operator.”

https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... LMB,HNXV,1
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leleko747
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:07 pm

"Cheap, second hand 747s stored and ready to be put back in service for charter ops? Naaaaah!"

"A380s with almost 1000 seats and which are way more financially risky to operate? Oh yeah!"
I wonder when people will understand:
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wrongwayup
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 pm

I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.
 
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Polot
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:10 pm

zeke wrote:
Maybe this goes with that


“We are currently seeking expressions of interest for current and qualified EASA A380 Captains & First Officers who are interested in joining a new operation in Spring 2018. This incredible opportunity is offering a commuting contract and the chance to operate on behalf of a well-known European based operator.”

https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... LMB,HNXV,1

That is probably for HiFly who is expecting their A380s next Spring. Your link is broken but the only A380 position I could quickly find also states "our [AeroProfessional-a recruiter] client is a well-established ACMI operator airline offering services worldwide."
 
Bambel
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:16 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
the Champions League final.


https://goo.gl/images/owpV7H

This happened after the CL final in Milan 2016. Ok, both teams from one city, but still..

b.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:47 pm

leleko747 wrote:
"Cheap, second hand 747s stored and ready to be put back in service for charter ops? Naaaaah!"

"A380s with almost 1000 seats and which are way more financially risky to operate? Oh yeah!"


Define "almost 1000" seats. :crazy:
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Jayafe
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:49 pm

leleko747 wrote:
"Cheap, second hand 747s stored and ready to be put back in service for charter ops? Naaaaah!"

"A380s with almost 1000 seats and which are way more financially risky to operate? Oh yeah!"


You are comparing apples vs lemons...but hey, if that helps to hurt less ;)
 
Amiga500
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:59 pm

Bambel wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
the Champions League final.


https://goo.gl/images/owpV7H

This happened after the CL final in Milan 2016. Ok, both teams from one city, but still..

b.


Brilliant!

That is exactly what I mean. Massive peak in demand that would require unsustainable (spare) capacity for any airline to retain normally.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:01 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.


No, no, no.

This won't be new frames, these will be the old off-lease frames. Same as for other charter ops.
 
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Polot
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:09 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.


No, no, no.

This won't be new frames, these will be the old off-lease frames. Same as for other charter ops.

Well that would depend on whether Amedeo takes delivery of their 20 A380s they technically have on order for this venture.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:12 pm

Polot wrote:
Well that would depend on whether Amedeo takes delivery of their 20 A380s they technically have on order for this venture.


I thought their order of new builds was for conventional leasing... for which they got few takers?
 
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Polot
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:14 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Well that would depend on whether Amedeo takes delivery of their 20 A380s they technically have on order for this venture.


I thought their order of new builds was for conventional leasing... for which they got few takers?

It is their order so they can use it for whatever they want- conventional leasing (which they have failed at getting takers) or operating the planes themselves with this new venture of theirs. It really doesn't matter was the original "intent" of the order is.
 
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:22 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Well that would depend on whether Amedeo takes delivery of their 20 A380s they technically have on order for this venture.


I thought their order of new builds was for conventional leasing... for which they got few takers?

Few?!?! That’s the understatement of the year. :‘))))

But I fully agree with you. This idea can only be for the A380‘s they get back from the initial operators.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:06 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.


No, no, no.

This won't be new frames, these will be the old off-lease frames. Same as for other charter ops.


Ok, fair enough. High six-figure monthly rental cost for a ~12y/o A380 instead of seven-figures for a new one. Same outcome.
 
ScottB
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:07 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
That is exactly what I mean. Massive peak in demand that would require unsustainable (spare) capacity for any airline to retain normally.


Except that there are already multiple players in this space (and there have been for decades, just with smaller aircraft), and the number of events like this globally on an annual basis is nowhere near enough to sustain a fleet of 12 to 32 A380s. Not to mention many airports serving host cities for such events just aren't A380-ready.

LAXintl wrote:
no airline was interested in taking on such leased time-shared A380 capacity for the fact that branding was very important and having a generic plane and 3rd party crew did not allow an airline to properly control the brand and product delivery.


I can see brand and product delivery as being a key issue for most of the major international carriers which have a network able to support one or more A380s on trunk routes. I don't expect SQ, QF, BA, the ME3, NH, etc. -- many of whom have marketed exclusive A380 products -- as being willing to offer outsourced A380 service with an inconsistent product. Another significant problem (particularly for U.S. carriers) would be labor contracts which prohibit the outsourcing of large aircraft flying.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A fleet of ready to go 380/340/747 or 8 could be useful. When a nursing home needs to evacuate before or after hurricane (etc), it can be life saving to evacuate residents, staff, their children and pets to one location


For most uses along those lines, chartering buses or smaller aircraft would be more effective. I can't imagine what a nightmare it would be to try to manage the boarding and alighting of 500+ infirm elderly on the two decks of an A380 -- and that's ignoring the significant chance of a medical emergency for one or more of the passengers during the whole process.

Amiga500 wrote:
If there isn't demand for it Mon-Thurs, then park it. If its done 10-15 years, then the lower airframe cost should make that more palatable.


I think it's possible to imagine a business model like that for a couple of frames globally. Not so much for 12 or 32. And even then they still need to pay the crews enough to keep them from jumping ship to a carrier which would pay them full-time.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:47 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Dublin based Amedeo, with 12 A380 aircraft with under management and a further 20 on order plans to apply for an air operator’s license next year in order to offer ACMI charter leasing to airlines from 2022 onwards

Mark Lapidus, Amedeo chief executive believes that the best way to exploit the company’s assets is now no longer to just lease aircraft to airlines but to operate the A380 directly under what he believes could be a new model for air transport.

Lapidus believes that the air transport industry is ripe for disruption, with aircraft ownership and operation likely to become secondary to the brand-led services, price and convenience that airlines or others can offer to passengers.
He is proposing to offer space on the world’s biggest passenger aircraft to a club of airlines and non-traditional aviation players, who would retain control over sale and distribution of tickets, but use his cabin crew. 

Amedeo plans airline-for-hire service using its fleet of A380s
https://www.ft.com/content/cb8209ec-cd1 ... 4ce08b24dc

=

Its interesting that Airbus was pitching this same concept in mid 2000s but no airline was interested in taking on such leased time-shared A380 capacity for the fact that branding was very important and having a generic plane and 3rd party crew did not allow an airline to properly control the brand and product delivery.

His revolutionary model is buying airplanes and operating them?
 
airzona11
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:57 pm

This has always seemed like a market that makes sense. Not just for A380s but other used plans.
Is there an arrangement to source Pilots/Crew from airlines? Say EK/BA/LH has some slack in the crew at a certain time of year, could pilots do one off flying for this type of airline?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:00 pm

airzona11 wrote:
This has always seemed like a market that makes sense. Not just for A380s but other used plans.
Is there an arrangement to source Pilots/Crew from airlines? Say EK/BA/LH has some slack in the crew at a certain time of year, could pilots do one off flying for this type of airline?

If there is slack at these airlines why would there be demand for a charter A380?
 
Planesmart
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:01 pm

32andBelow wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Dublin based Amedeo, with 12 A380 aircraft with under management and a further 20 on order plans to apply for an air operator’s license next year in order to offer ACMI charter leasing to airlines from 2022 onwards

Mark Lapidus, Amedeo chief executive believes that the best way to exploit the company’s assets is now no longer to just lease aircraft to airlines but to operate the A380 directly under what he believes could be a new model for air transport.

Lapidus believes that the air transport industry is ripe for disruption, with aircraft ownership and operation likely to become secondary to the brand-led services, price and convenience that airlines or others can offer to passengers.
He is proposing to offer space on the world’s biggest passenger aircraft to a club of airlines and non-traditional aviation players, who would retain control over sale and distribution of tickets, but use his cabin crew. 

Amedeo plans airline-for-hire service using its fleet of A380s
https://www.ft.com/content/cb8209ec-cd1 ... 4ce08b24dc

=

Its interesting that Airbus was pitching this same concept in mid 2000s but no airline was interested in taking on such leased time-shared A380 capacity for the fact that branding was very important and having a generic plane and 3rd party crew did not allow an airline to properly control the brand and product delivery.

His revolutionary model is buying airplanes and operating them?

I'm sure they are in negotiation to extend the leases or sell to EK, Airbus in respect to triggering buybacks, and EA to re-negotiate engine maintenance. This announcement is designed to create leaverage. Good luck.

A more likely scenario, is all parties share the dollars.
 
airzona11
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:01 pm

32andBelow wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
This has always seemed like a market that makes sense. Not just for A380s but other used plans.
Is there an arrangement to source Pilots/Crew from airlines? Say EK/BA/LH has some slack in the crew at a certain time of year, could pilots do one off flying for this type of airline?

If there is slack at these airlines why would there be demand for a charter A380?


Seasonality specific to a carrier's network. They all have high and low seasons. Could the pilots then be sourced to fly the planes? Or are airline pilots strictly prohibited from doing that?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:13 pm

airzona11 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
This has always seemed like a market that makes sense. Not just for A380s but other used plans.
Is there an arrangement to source Pilots/Crew from airlines? Say EK/BA/LH has some slack in the crew at a certain time of year, could pilots do one off flying for this type of airline?

If there is slack at these airlines why would there be demand for a charter A380?


Seasonality specific to a carrier's network. They all have high and low seasons. Could the pilots then be sourced to fly the planes? Or are airline pilots strictly prohibited from doing that?

Depends on the agreement. But if they were allowed any time they flew would have to be tracked and factored into the crews cumulative limits. There aren't too many circumstances were an airplane this large would find enough demand inversely from another airline with this type of equipment.
 
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:41 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.


No, no, no.

This won't be new frames, these will be the old off-lease frames. Same as for other charter ops.


Ok, fair enough. High six-figure monthly rental cost for a ~12y/o A380 instead of seven-figures for a new one. Same outcome.


What monthly rental cost? Amedeo owns the plane and, presumably, is foreseeing a circumstance where they have no other use for it (no other airline wanting to lease it). So, for them, the plane is essentially free.
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mercure1
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 pm

hOMSaR wrote:

What monthly rental cost? Amedeo owns the plane and, presumably, is foreseeing a circumstance where they have no other use for it (no other airline wanting to lease it). So, for them, the plane is essentially free.


Amedeo probably financed the planes on terms closer to 20-years, so they still have large payment to make monthly, so its hardly "free".

The upcoming return of A380s from operators could spell economic disaster for their owners, hence their urgency in trying to figure out what to do with them to generate cash.
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DartHerald
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:38 pm

[quote="zeke"]Maybe this goes with that


“We are currently seeking expressions of interest for current and qualified EASA A380 Captains & First Officers who are interested in joining a new operation in Spring 2018. This incredible opportunity is offering a commuting contract and the chance to operate on behalf of a well-known European based operator.”

https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... LMB,HNXV,1[/quote

I seem to recall reading that it is HiFly advertising for A380 crew. Surely this advert is a bit to soon for Amadeo?
 
727200
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:46 pm

Looks like they are running out of options on these planes. New ones can't be sold, used ones no one will take them, so try and make them into charter fleet rather than cutting them up. Problem is they are way to big for consistent charter ops and will just be sitting around. Looks like the date with the chopper is coming sooner, rather than later.
 
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.


It still remains to be seen if it will really be a GOOD idea. But this unprecidented business model is very interesting and quite couragious, anyway. ACMI leasing of VLA could be attractive for many operators who have to deal with very volatile demands. In addition to your suggestions, Christian and Jewish holidays come to mind, as well as European summer peaks (they are way extremer than anywhere else in the world), cruise ship embarkments, sports events, virtual "death clouds" invented by the Met Office, industrial actions...
 
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Stitch
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:50 pm

leleko747 wrote:
"Cheap, second hand 747s stored and ready to be put back in service for charter ops? Naaaaah!" "A380s with almost 1000 seats and which are way more financially risky to operate? Oh yeah!"

wrongwayup wrote:
I'm not buying it - especially for the charter market. You're looking at covering a seven-figure rental for a new A380, versus (say) next to nothing for a 747-400. At the low utilization a charter outfit runs, that ownership cost outweighs any savings in operating cost very quickly.


The difference could be those cheap, second-hand 747s need significant expenditures to restore them to service and then costly maintenance compared to the more modern and already-maintained A380.



Polot wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
This won't be new frames, these will be the old off-lease frames. Same as for other charter ops.

Well that would depend on whether Amedeo takes delivery of their 20 A380s they technically have on order for this venture.


That 20 frame order will never be filled. This is effectively Amedeo's strategy with those 20 frames which found no takers. But as they already own these frames, the capital costs will be significantly lower so should the charter fees and that could make the difference.


mercure1 wrote:
Amedeo probably financed the planes on terms closer to 20-years, so they still have large payment to make monthly, so its hardly "free". The upcoming return of A380s from operators could spell economic disaster for their owners, hence their urgency in trying to figure out what to do with them to generate cash.


These sale-and-leaseback deals are structured to ensure the airframe is paid off well within the lease period. Doric, for example, paid $234 million for an A380 they delivered to EK and EK's contract over 10 years pays $314 million to Doric in leasing fees, down payments and balloon payments. If EK extend the lease, then Doric makes even more. And Doric only financed $145 million of that $234 million (at a rate of 2.85%) - the rest was raised by selling shares in the airplane to investors.
 
DWC
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:54 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Amedeo probably financed the planes on terms closer to 20-years, so they still have large payment to make monthly, so its hardly "free".
The upcoming return of A380s from operators could spell economic disaster for their owners, hence their urgency in trying to figure out what to do with them to generate cash.

That alone is incentive enough & the same for EK going so vocal last week.
One must recognize that Mark Lapidus has been consistent in his communication these past years & IIRC, much of the A380+ cabin rearrangement in Y owes to his inputs.

DartHerald wrote:
zeke wrote:
“We are currently seeking expressions of interest for current and qualified EASA A380 Captains & First Officers who are interested in joining a new operation in Spring 2018. This incredible opportunity is offering a commuting contract and the chance to operate on behalf of a well-known European based operator.”

I seem to recall reading that it is HiFly advertising for A380 crew. Surely this advert is a bit to soon for Amadeo?

Where would this pool of pilots come from ?
 
Couprace
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.


This guy is full of great idea's. After all the pomp and fanfare with the fake A380 order in 2013 this character has not sold a single plane. Maybe he should stick to financing.
 
bzcat
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:45 pm

leleko747 wrote:
"Cheap, second hand 747s stored and ready to be put back in service for charter ops? Naaaaah!"

"A380s with almost 1000 seats and which are way more financially risky to operate? Oh yeah!"


Amedeo already owns the A380 coming off lease that has no other use so their choice is not between cheap stored 747-400 or A380. It's between keeping the A380 air worthy (in hope of someone eventually leasing it) or strip it for parts.
 
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Couprace wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.


This guy is full of great idea's. After all the pomp and fanfare with the fake A380 order in 2013 this character has not sold a single plane. Maybe he should stick to financing.


I think his main problem was Emirates. They wouldn't like others dumping seasonal capacity with their old planes, that also without the burden of owning planes and crewing them. Now that EK jumped off the A380 bandwagon at DAS17, he is unshackled.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Couprace
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:06 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Couprace wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Good idea. Between airline seasonal upguages, haj charters, and UNHCR charters they should be pretty busy. Some airlines may opt for damp leases though.


This guy is full of great idea's. After all the pomp and fanfare with the fake A380 order in 2013 this character has not sold a single plane. Maybe he should stick to financing.


I think his main problem was Emirates. They wouldn't like others dumping seasonal capacity with their old planes, that also without the burden of owning planes and crewing them. Now that EK jumped off the A380 bandwagon at DAS17, he is unshackled.



I don't agree with any of that. First of all Emirates did their best to support Amedeo's sales efforts a few years ago. Secondly it's more than a little premature to say EK is off the A380 bandwagon.

I do think this guy was not well received coming to the US and lecturing Airline execs on airline fundamentals.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:41 am

Couprace wrote:
Secondly it's more than a little premature to say EK is off the A380 bandwagon.


I definitely think they are off the wagon and the wagon is pushed off the hill.

See the blanket media coverage how proudly they showed the door to Airbus executive at DAS17 just minutes before the announcement.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Aither
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:33 am

Maybe some airlines are short sighted as well.
Too many are complaining about the competition and stay in a defensive mode. If it continues like this for the next 15 years Emirates could carry between a quarter and a third of the long haul traffic...

I think it would be great if someone (Amadeo) could offer short term leases to deal with seasonality & maintenance periods of the small A380 fleet out there. The airline branding is not so important on many routes. The branding comes more from the service than the aircraft itself.
Never trust the obvious
 
Planesmart
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:39 am

Stitch wrote:
These sale-and-leaseback deals are structured to ensure the airframe is paid off well within the lease period. Doric, for example, paid $234 million for an A380 they delivered to EK and EK's contract over 10 years pays $314 million to Doric in leasing fees, down payments and balloon payments. If EK extend the lease, then Doric makes even more. And Doric only financed $145 million of that $234 million (at a rate of 2.85%) - the rest was raised by selling shares in the airplane to investors.

Don't know which sale leaseback to which you are referring.

Most consist of senior debt in USD, funded by the lease syndicate participants, and junior debt in GBP (details not always disclosed).

The senior debt is repaid during the term of the lease, providing the leasee makes all the payments for the full term of the lease.

The junior debt is not usually repaid during the term of the lease. In fact, many are interest only. In the event an aircraft cannot find a new home, the junior debt is repaid from the final balloon payment (the prospectus rarely lists all components of the final payment, nor the basis of their calculation), pro rata service and inspection fees plus interior refurbish/exterior paint (taken in cash if to be scrapped), scrap value and buyback.

Assuming initial 12 year lease terms, most junior debt values are around the USD57m mark (USD75m), before deduction of the above.

Current residual value projections are trending below prospectus expectations, which at end of lease were expected to be around USD130m - currently USD105m, though part may be accounted for by higher than contracted hours, which will be compensated in the final balloon payment.

With junior debt at USD57m less final balloon payments, extended leases, sale to EK or other airlines, or scrap, must surely still be highly viable options. If you were IAG, could you profitably find a home for well maintained 50,000 hour A380's, purchased for under USD100m?

Presumably it's the scope for the buffer between actual realisable value versus junior debt less final balloon payments to shrink, that EK, leasors and related party financiers want better protected.

EK credit ratings are unchanged, so given the limited used demand (though to be fair, there is also currently limited supply), end of lease values will be disproportionately affected by Airbus commitment (or lack of) to continued production, and by inference, Airbus and RR commitment to new developments and improvements.
 
DWC
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:19 am

Aither wrote:
Maybe some airlines are short sighted as well.
Too many are complaining about the competition and stay in a defensive mode. If it continues like this for the next 15 years Emirates could carry between a quarter and a third of the long haul traffic...

Agreed. That is what DWC was designed for.
EK are getting much closer to FZ & may end up doing the same with EY.
EK also want more A380s to the best specs, it's not for nothing.
One should also have a look at what the other companies of the Emirates groups are doing...
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:56 pm

Couprace, dtw2hyd and Varsity1 all in a row in this thread.All claiming the death of the A380 yet again. What a surprise!

If only NAV20 (NAV30) were here to complete the lineup - but, sadly, he hasn't posted for a while so I fear the worst...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:58 pm

He could be onto something, I don't believe we've seen true disruption in the aviation industry yet. We've had the rise of new mega-hubs and the emergence of LCC's, but these are iterations of existing models, not something genuinely new in the sense that the likes of Air BnB and Uber have disrupted the market.

Hypothetically, what if Norwegian, Vueling, Level, easyJet and Ryanair all booked space onto a single flight operated by Amedeo's airline. This has the potential to go way beyond existing code-sharing, with lots of disruptive possibilities and cost savings. I'm not yet convinced this has potential in the more premium space, but for price inelastic low fare seekers, this could open up some very interesting possibilities.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Couprace
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:22 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Couprace, dtw2hyd and Varsity1 all in a row in this thread.All claiming the death of the A380 yet again. What a surprise!

If only NAV20 (NAV30) were here to complete the lineup - but, sadly, he hasn't posted for a while so I fear the worst...


If you read the threads you would see that I was not agreeing with dtwhyd on end of the relationship between Emirates, Airbus and the A380. I happen to think Airbus will end up making a deal happen. They will continue on investing time, money and resources they don't really have in the project. Airbus can continue to build 8 planes a year - each year they do so the design and technology becomes more outdated, so you're losing money every year as you get closer to having to once again invest big money to update the model, meanwhile the engine manufacturers don't see future in propulsion upgrades. I don't believe the A380 program is dead, it is and has been on life support for many years.

At any rate this is a thread concerning Amedeo, and my posting was regarding that topic.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:22 pm

Fundamental shift in air travel. This one will be big.

It will take a while to get of f the ground, as I think they need to get big enough fast, but I see a huge change in the air travel market. This will really start appealing to the Travelocities and Google Flights and Kayaks and other online sources, and wholesale clubs and travel agents. Outsource the actual airline operation, just focus on selling tickets. The actual product is getting to be the same across carries in economy. The difference is going to be bundling - do you pay more for bags, or are thy included? Do you get a credit for food? What is your boarding group going to be?

There are a lot of logistics to figure out, but in this day and age of computers, it can be easily done. You won't go to a branded counter, most likely generic kiosks and bag checks. The 380 gives them good economy of scale, giving good discount prices. I am sure some airlines will codeshare so that they can serve new markets, or handle peak travel periods. But I expect the big users to be the online booking sites.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:49 pm

Couprace wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Couprace, dtw2hyd and Varsity1 all in a row in this thread.All claiming the death of the A380 yet again. What a surprise!

If only NAV20 (NAV30) were here to complete the lineup - but, sadly, he hasn't posted for a while so I fear the worst...


If you read the threads you would see that I was not agreeing with dtwhyd on end of the relationship between Emirates, Airbus and the A380. I happen to think Airbus will end up making a deal happen. [...] I don't believe the A380 program is dead, it is and has been on life support for many years.


Fair enough. Mea culpa...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Stitch
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Re: Amedeo looks to set up airline to utilize A380s

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:12 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Don't know which sale leaseback to which you are referring.


MSN077 delivered in late 2011 to Doric Nimrod Air Two Limited (whom also bought two other A380s from EK).

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