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KarelXWB
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BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:36 pm

New issues have popped up, making an opening before 2021 unliky.

New tests at the infamous BER airport reveal systemic deficiencies, previously unknown, making an opening before 2021 unlikely.


Article
http://amp.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/neuer ... 20284.html
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
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HHScot
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:46 pm

At this rate I might be retired before it opens! What started off as a running joke is now a Grade A embarrassment!
 
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jsnww81
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:46 pm

Demolish the terminal building and start again. This has gone beyond the realm of reality.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:58 pm

HHScot wrote:
At this rate I might be retired before it opens! What started off as a running joke is now a Grade A embarrassment!
An embarrassment is an understatement. Remember when people were talking about "Deutsche Wertarbeit" (German craftsmanship) being one of the things Germany is most famous for? Well, in this case, the incompetence of the people who planned the thing, the politicians and their ego trips (like Eberhard Diepgen, Manfred Stolpe, federal transportation minister Wissmann, maybe even Helmut Kohl himself, all back in the mid 90's), etc. have led to BER becoming a black hole for all the money the German tax payers have paid the federal government. It might have been better to build the new HAM in Kaltenkirchen to alleviate the problem Hamburg has with a landlocked airport with no room for expansion than to waste money on prestige projects for a place, that only gets that money because it's our nation's capital.
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Dutchy
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:02 pm

I agree, this has gone far enough, tear it down and start over again. Give a consortium of competent builders the order to build something functional. NACO will do it competently and fast. Should be erected before 2020, a year before this disaster, if they make it. Swallow the bitter pill, this is ridiculous.
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER: 5th Anniversary of the supposed opening

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:05 pm

And this is just in:

A recent construction oversight report of the state of Brandenburg as well as a report made by the TÜV (an organization that checks stuff like cars, machinery, rollercoasters and breast implants for safety, pollution and other legal standards) say that BER still has grave technical problems, mainly in the area of fire protection.

And the Tagesspiegel reports that the opening of that "airport" is improbable before 2021.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozial ... 79851.html



And the saga goes on...

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:12 pm

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozial ... 79851.html says that the problems are still severe, mainly in the area of fire protection.

Wow. I hope that airport will be opened before airplanes are replaced by teleportation...

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
cedarjet
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:13 pm

2021 = a decade. That is extraordinary
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HHScot
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:14 pm

Then when it finally opens, the Greens will be in power and restrict the airport to operating every 2nd Sunday per month between 14:15 and 15:30! :stirthepot:
 
HHScot
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:16 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Wow. I hope that airport will be opened before airplanes are replaced by teleportation...


Or time machines, otherwise we can go back and kick whoever made the original plans up the backside!
 
jubguy3
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:20 pm

How long could it possibly take for these idiots? Even if they stripped the building to its bones and rebuilt it, it would be done sooner. Unless they have like one construction guy walking around and doing this himself I do not understand why this is taking so long. Shame shame shame. Berlin should sue for every penny they gave to these people.
 
Antarius
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:22 pm

I agree. It cannot cost more or take longer than to knock it down and start over.

At least, on the bright side, with Air Berlin's bankruptcy, TXL should have more space
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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Polot
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:31 pm

Simple answer is to just tear it down and rebuild, this time with a design that does not try and defy the laws of physics when it comes to smoke and fire.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:07 pm

Sigh...I guess I will have to wait for at least 4 more years to connect at BER from my EK A380neo flight originating in AUH to the KL Rekkof 130NG flight to AMS :( (From AMS it will be a B6 A322LR as part of my round the world trip)
 
Jetsouth
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Re: BER: 5th Anniversary of the supposed opening

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:10 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
And this is just in:

A recent construction oversight report of the state of Brandenburg as well as a report made by the TÜV (an organization that checks stuff like cars, machinery, rollercoasters and breast implants for safety, pollution and other legal standards) say that BER still has grave technical problems, mainly in the area of fire protection.

And the Tagesspiegel reports that the opening of that "airport" is improbable before 2021.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozial ... 79851.html



And the saga goes on...

David


Wow, originally supposed to open in 2012, and now 2021, a 9 year delay. And who knows how many further delays?
 
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TheLion
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:55 pm

This is too funny. Yet for Berliners and those involved in the project who are blameless for its failings, there must be no hair left on their heads, it all torn out long ago.
 
TW870
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:17 am

I can't read German, so I apologize if this is in the article. But is the problem still primarily the smoke and fire suppression system? Are we down to one set of issues, or are there still multiple problems?

Is a tear down actually on the table with the current engineering team? I understand that with the physics of smoke clearing and with the way the venting system was built that in some scenarios it could be cheaper to actually tear it all down and start over with a building that works with rather than against the physics of smoke venting. I am just trying to understand how bad it is.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:56 am

Wow... Just wow.

Who is getting a share of the funds for the airport? This demands an investigation by an outside auditing agency.
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flyingturtle
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:17 am

lightsaber wrote:
Who is getting a share of the funds for the airport? This demands an investigation by an outside auditing agency.


Actually, Imtech, one of the companies involved with BER, went bankrupt - but due to corruption and mismanagement. Imtech is one of the most prestigious construction companies in Europe, having a history of more than 150 years.

TW870 wrote:
I can't read German, so I apologize if this is in the article. But is the problem still primarily the smoke and fire suppression system? Are we down to one set of issues, or are there still multiple problems?


Fire safety is still the biggest problem...


David
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par13del
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:52 am

Ok this is the second debacle, the first was those who designed, built and inspected, project crashed and halted.
This new delay I am placing squarely on the government and its inspectors, how can you previously inspect a failed project that is a national embarrassment and miss things that create more lengthy delay, were these inspectors hiding under a rock and not know what went on before they showed up...heck we on A.Net could have told them were to look and what the problem was....
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 am

At this point, tear it down and build something new and large enough so that SXF can close as well. Hard to believe the LaGuardia redevelopment might actually be completed before Berlin has a functioning, brand new airport. If BER can't truly open until 2021, then Lufthansa really did a fine job of buying out a competitor (a weak one, but a competitor at that in AB) and pretty much secured the the power to limit competition at TXL and SXF for a long time.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:54 am

I want to find a comparison, but I really can't.
When the new Eilat airport got delayed, it was to add stands and extend the runway (was it justified? Maybe; does it adequately explain the delay? Yes).
Look around the west and you will see few projects that dragged out as severely as this one.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:56 am

God damn, just raze the damn thing now and fire anyone who has anything to do with this airport (Should have already been done) and build a new one. They could get it done before then I'd hope. At this rate LaGuardia will be fully redone before this thing opens.....
 
Antarius
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:03 am

ikolkyo wrote:
God damn, just raze the damn thing now and fire anyone who has anything to do with this airport (Should have already been done) and build a new one. They could get it done before then I'd hope. At this rate LaGuardia will be fully redone before this thing opens.....


LaGuardia will find a way to outspent BER though.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:58 am

Antarius wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
God damn, just raze the damn thing now and fire anyone who has anything to do with this airport (Should have already been done) and build a new one. They could get it done before then I'd hope. At this rate LaGuardia will be fully redone before this thing opens.....


LaGuardia will find a way to outspent BER though.


At least it would be operational.
 
Antarius
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:03 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
God damn, just raze the damn thing now and fire anyone who has anything to do with this airport (Should have already been done) and build a new one. They could get it done before then I'd hope. At this rate LaGuardia will be fully redone before this thing opens.....


LaGuardia will find a way to outspent BER though.


At least it would be operational.


Touche.

A large part of my family are from and live in Berlin. This is an embarrassment for them and the city
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
AngMoh
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:21 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I want to find a comparison, but I really can't.
When the new Eilat airport got delayed, it was to add stands and extend the runway (was it justified? Maybe; does it adequately explain the delay? Yes).
Look around the west and you will see few projects that dragged out as severely as this one.


So what will be finished first: Berlin airport or the Ryugyong Hotel in Pyongyang (Hotel of Doom)?
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
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seahawk
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am

It could be a nice solar and community park and cultural meeting centre.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:43 am

Taetae, Taetea, put on your cone hats, get out the Rattles and celebrate

TODAY IS THE 2000th NON-OPENING DAY so let's get out and celebrate :bigthumbsup:

and for all of you guys who suggest to demolish the buiding and start newm I've got News for you,

YOU NEED A DEMOLISHING PERMIT and that can take time and once you got that, the building Permit might have expired and a new one might take 10 years or so, because every nimby can Appeal, first against the demolishing and then against the new building.



Folks, this has nothing to do with German Engineering but everything wigth the inability of German politics to get things done.
Last edited by PanHAM on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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CPHFF
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:44 am

Costs are now predicted to reach 6,6 Billion Euro. That amount is astonishing, and it will probably continue to rise.
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ALAfly
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:55 am

The header in the topic should be soon changed to "old BER Airport......." It's simply amazing how things are not going as they should. Reading the link in first post I was shocked that time is already 2000 Days after it "should" finally been open in 2012. Don't want to attack the guy's working in BER, but I think slowly they would need some Chinese workers to finish this.

Came to mind, that they could store some Aircrafts there if LDE (France) will be full.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:58 am

They will just wait until some protected species finds a habitat in the empty building and then never open it.
 
Ideekay
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:46 am

It will probably get delayed again.. The Sagrada Família in barcelona is likely going to be finished in 2028, wonder if BER will be open by then
 
Flightguy123
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:35 am

I feel that you could argue that a good part of Air Berlin's going under was because of TXL and them not having the opportunity to grow their market and operate in and out of a modern airport in their HQ. If the new BER had opened in time they could have announced new routes and possibly had a nice lounge + airport setup. Not the little warehouse they had going for the past few years....
 
TC957
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:46 am

A demolishing permit ?, Nah, a few kilos of dynamite and a dozen bulldozers should be quicker !
The ramp at BER is already used for storage, lots of AB & EW A319/320's there.
 
Noshow
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:50 am

They problem is not that they messed it up the first time, the problem is that they are still unable to turn around and sort things out. Thery are still not talking open about what the problems are. They seem to be lying about the status and completion.

From a pragmatic point of view tearing it down (or close to) and rebuilding it in some proper strictly supervised and documented way seems the fastest and cheapest thing to do.
What is acutally scary: They plan some expansion already, adding a second terminal within the current area. Like a BER 2 on top! That will mean chaos and blocking any future expansion. I hope they are stopped from doing this next bigger mistake.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:24 am

PanHAM wrote:
Taetae, Taetea, put on your cone hats, get out the Rattles and celebrate

TODAY IS THE 2000th NON-OPENING DAY so let's get out and celebrate :bigthumbsup:

and for all of you guys who suggest to demolish the buiding and start newm I've got News for you,

YOU NEED A DEMOLISHING PERMIT and that can take time and once you got that, the building Permit might have expired and a new one might take 10 years or so, because every nimby can Appeal, first against the demolishing and then against the new building.



Folks, this has nothing to do with German Engineering but everything wigth the inability of German politics to get things done.


I assume that the Abgeordnetenhaus of Berlin has jurisdiction for local planning? If so, then it is time for the German Federal Government to step in an override the local planning laws. This is an asset of national importance. This is what happens routinely in the UK for strategic initiatives of national importance - Westminster can override local planning guidelines and policies. An example is the development of Stansted airport in the late 1980s - this would never have gone past the local authority without Westminster overriding.
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SCQ83
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:39 am

I don't understand why Germans are so stubborn.

Obviously they don't want to demolish it because it would be an massive scandal in many ways (political, economic; even the image of Germany). At the moment, this is somehow under the carpet, specially outside Germany.

But at some point they will need to demolish it. Or do they plan to use TXL and SXF (two overpacked dumps) forever?
 
PanHAM
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:40 am

The owners are the states of Berlin and Brandenburg plus the Federal Republic. Supervisors with full planning authority is the local County. I forgot the nme, something with Spreewald. They give either thumbs up or down

I wish we had something like a strategic initiative for Projects with national importance. Only, where have they been when the Extension of LHR, 3rd runway, came up?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
cedarjet
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:55 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Or do they plan to use TXL and SXF (two overpacked dumps) forever?


I hope so, I love Tegel, best airport in the world
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Noshow
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:18 am

There is no capacity elsewhere to close Tegel. The actual passenger numbers are way higher than Schönefeld plus BER (22 million a year IF it opens one day) can handle. So Tegel will have to remain open for many years if not forever. Tegel is some perfect shuttle airport (think LaGuardia) and will have it's role even with BER open one day.
 
downdata
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:34 am

They should just open it. Who cares if their fire safety is not up to standard, its not like airport goes on fire every second day
 
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conaly
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:41 am

downdata wrote:
They should just open it. Who cares if their fire safety is not up to standard, its not like airport goes on fire every second day


Yeah, sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCss ... rport_fire
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Loew
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:13 am

BER project is a massive embarassment, but it is still an embarassment more or less contained within Germany. Tearing this terminal down and building a new one is not going to be as quick and easy as many users here think, but doing so would be also a full official acknowledgement of it being an embarassment with world-wide reach. When we talk about tearing this terminal down it could take years to get that permit. As for building a completely new terminal, getting a new permit to do so is going to take at least 3 - 4 years, as the whole, mostly paper process will have start all over. And of course, as there will be a lot of people opposing the project, there will be also a low to medium risk that new terminal could end up with no new building permit. Obtaining permits, actually tearing that building down and building a new one, is going to incur massive costs. Upgrading and rebuilding existing terminal is of course going to incur massive costs as well, I can´t say which costs will be higher. This is not an easy situation to solve...
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:21 am

seahawk wrote:
They will just wait until some protected species finds a habitat in the empty building and then never open it.


I'm just thinking of turning BER into a safari park, full with rhinos and elephants, flamingoes and lions...

PanHAM wrote:
YOU NEED A DEMOLISHING PERMIT and that can take time and once you got that, the building Permit might have expired and a new one might take 10 years or so, because every nimby can Appeal, first against the demolishing and then against the new building.


That's a good thing that permits are required. That's the only way things like fire safety is respected, and while demolishing, hazardous material is properly disposed of.

The worst thing that can happen to BER is the construction permit running out. They can re-apply for a new permit, but they must adhere to the probably stricter safety regulations of 2018 or even later. In October 2015, they issued the fifth appendix to the original construction permit. In October 2016, an appendix for the main terminal ran out. There have even been discussions about allowing unlimited building permits in Brandenburg... :yuck:


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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terrificturk
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:22 am

I assume that the Abgeordnetenhaus of Berlin has jurisdiction for local planning? If so, then it is time for the German Federal Government to step in an override the local planning laws. This is an asset of national importance. This is what happens routinely in the UK for strategic initiatives of national importance - Westminster can override local planning guidelines and policies. An example is the development of Stansted airport in the late 1980s - this would never have gone past the local authority without Westminster overriding.


Correct. This has nothing to do with 'German politics', but merely the continuous incompetence and arrogance of the local lefty-loony Berlin government, which is run by socialist /neo-communist/green coalitions for decades. This merely highlights the status of Berlin as a 'hip' party place that is fun to be in (apparently) and where nothing of substance gets done.

Contrast this with the well functioning arports elsewhere in Germany, including large hubs FRA and MUC, with the latter being voted regularly as one of the best worldwide. So, this has nothing to do with Germany or the quality of its prodcts, but merely highlights what many foreigners have been saying for years: Berlin is not for business. Dont forget that Socialsim has failed the world over, but in some niche areas it is alive and kicking, while the rest of the country pays for it through the tax pot. I guess it happens elsewhere too.
 
ei146
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 am

downdata wrote:
They should just open it. Who cares if their fire safety is not up to standard, its not like airport goes on fire every second day


You touch a sensitive point here. Remember the DUS fire in 1996?
 
Noshow
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:51 am

This has nothing to do with 'German politics', but merely the continuous incompetence and arrogance of the local lefty-loony Berlin government


BER is co-owned by the Bund (fed government) and two federal states, so the problem is way beyound being local.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:07 pm

ei146 wrote:
downdata wrote:
They should just open it. Who cares if their fire safety is not up to standard, its not like airport goes on fire every second day


You touch a sensitive point here. Remember the DUS fire in 1996?

I wonder though, what is more dangerous from a fire safety point of view:
1) An old terminal that has seen little investment (since it should be closed anyway) operating well above designed capacity, that meets or exceeds old fire-safety standards.
2) A brand new terminal not meeting all modern standards.

It would be interesting to see how the differences in standards compare.

To give a car analogy: if given the choise I would prefer to crash in a four star Euro-NCAP rated car build in 2017, then a five star Euro-NCAP rated car build in 2000.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate that safety standards have to be met. It's just that I often see people and companies trying to meet standards for the sake of meeting standards, not for the sake of actually delivering an improved product (safety).
Attamottamotta!
 
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:11 pm

Good points. But the fire protection issues could be used as a "comfortable" cover up for deeper problems below the surface (layout, capacity, build quality, lack of documentation and such) that prevent the airport to be opened anyway.
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