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jfklganyc
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:24 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
But the problems stem from the lack of a central planning and engineering authority. Instead of giving a large contract to an experienced company, they literally told company A to install some stuff, then they employed company B, then C and then D and in the end, nothing worked together. They had 3 ft thick bundles of electrical cables - every team of workers added to the same bundle!


That's exactly the approach used in New York for subway and rail projects, which goes a long way to explaining why New York has the highest subway construction costs in the world. In fact, in New York for big public projects, giving a contract to a single experienced company to manage the project is illegal. Cuomo has made a couple of exceptions recently, for projects like the new Tappan Zee, which might lead to more widespread use in future.

In fact, delays like BER are relatively common on big public infrastructure projects in many places. BER is exceptional in how close they got to completion before discovering the problems. If they had been stalled at about a year from completion for the last five years, it would likely be far less widely known.



You mean design-build, or lack thereof.

NY is the most bloated, corrupt state government in the nation.

It is harder and more expensive to do business here then anywhere else in the United States.

It is the closest in ideology and practice to the large, bloated governments of Europe...so it is not surprising that they share similar construction problems on large scale projects.

People should google East Side Access if they want to see a BER comparison in NYC
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:42 pm

We might get our new Terminal at MCI before BER is opened!
 
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OA940
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:19 pm

I'm getting F-35 vibes from this...

Maybe it'll open before airplanes become obsolete...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
csavel
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:48 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
But the problems stem from the lack of a central planning and engineering authority. Instead of giving a large contract to an experienced company, they literally told company A to install some stuff, then they employed company B, then C and then D and in the end, nothing worked together. They had 3 ft thick bundles of electrical cables - every team of workers added to the same bundle!


That's exactly the approach used in New York for subway and rail projects, which goes a long way to explaining why New York has the highest subway construction costs in the world. In fact, in New York for big public projects, giving a contract to a single experienced company to manage the project is illegal. Cuomo has made a couple of exceptions recently, for projects like the new Tappan Zee, which might lead to more widespread use in future.

In fact, delays like BER are relatively common on big public infrastructure projects in many places. BER is exceptional in how close they got to completion before discovering the problems. If they had been stalled at about a year from completion for the last five years, it would likely be far less widely known.


Of interest to Airliners.net is that my brother who works in the construction industry told me that an exception was made for LGA and they are following modern construction techniques including (and I forgot the name) a contract where the construction companies get a set price for the job, if they do it under budget great, if not, then they are screwed. Cost overruns are borne by the company itself. Less incentive to boondoggle.

It seems to be working LGA construction is on schedule for the most part - amazing to see in NY!
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Maybe it's time to start a "Things That Will Be Accomplished Before BER Opens" thread.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:14 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
You mean design-build, or lack thereof.


Exactly.

NY is the most bloated, corrupt state government in the nation.

It is harder and more expensive to do business here then anywhere else in the United States.

It is the closest in ideology and practice to the large, bloated governments of Europe...so it is not surprising that they share similar construction problems on large scale projects.

People should google East Side Access if they want to see a BER comparison in NYC


It's important not to generalize BER to the broader European experience. It is very much the exception and not the rule. European governments are able to deliver projects in a fraction of the time and for a fraction of the cost of American governments. Look at the construction costs in places like Spain compared with New York. Spain can deliver projects like East Side Access for literally an order of magnitude less money.


csavel wrote:
Of interest to Airliners.net is that my brother who works in the construction industry told me that an exception was made for LGA and they are following modern construction techniques including (and I forgot the name) a contract where the construction companies get a set price for the job, if they do it under budget great, if not, then they are screwed. Cost overruns are borne by the company itself. Less incentive to boondoggle.

It seems to be working LGA construction is on schedule for the most part - amazing to see in NY!


Exactly. That is one of the projects that was exempted from the ban on design-build.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
Something tells me that this is just a way to finally justify shutting down TXL. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but that's what I think. BER is a failure, but nobody wants to admit it.

They should not allow an incomplete BER to open if TXL is closed.
You think the governments of Berlin, Brandenburg and the German federal government care? They don't have a clue how they can fix BER, plus with the issue of affordable apartments in most major cities, they need to have TXL shut down so they can sell all that real estate to people who will basically build a new neighbourhood out of it, though I'm very certain that nobody who lives off minimum wage or Hartz IV (aka welfare) will be able to afford those new apartments (the price for new apartments per square metre is just too high for that).

Anyway, this has to be the most embarrassing infrastructure project FAILURE in almost 70 years history of the Federal Republic of Germany. At this stage, chances are the new SJO in Orotina will open long before BER does.

The Prosecution rests.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
mxaxai
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:58 am

YYZLGA wrote:
NY is the most bloated, corrupt state government in the nation.

It is harder and more expensive to do business here then anywhere else in the United States.

It is the closest in ideology and practice to the large, bloated governments of Europe...so it is not surprising that they share similar construction problems on large scale projects.

People should google East Side Access if they want to see a BER comparison in NYC


It's important not to generalize BER to the broader European experience. It is very much the exception and not the rule. European governments are able to deliver projects in a fraction of the time and for a fraction of the cost of American governments. Look at the construction costs in places like Spain compared with New York. Spain can deliver projects like East Side Access for literally an order of magnitude less money.

Even in Germany, it is for some reason always the high-profile prestige project that runs into these issues and almost always is connected to the local government doing things wrong. Once projects are run by companies (e. g. terminal expansions) they suddenly work almost flawlessly.
YYZLGA wrote:
csavel wrote:
Of interest to Airliners.net is that my brother who works in the construction industry told me that an exception was made for LGA and they are following modern construction techniques including (and I forgot the name) a contract where the construction companies get a set price for the job, if they do it under budget great, if not, then they are screwed. Cost overruns are borne by the company itself. Less incentive to boondoggle.

It seems to be working LGA construction is on schedule for the most part - amazing to see in NY!


Exactly. That is one of the projects that was exempted from the ban on design-build.

That doesn't always work. Usually these projects are for important parts of the infrastructure and they tend to be custom made. If a company bankrupts the next offer by its competitors will be a lot higher than the initial estimate. And you can't just leave it unfinished or wait for a few years to settle all the lawsuits.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:27 am

csavel wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
But the problems stem from the lack of a central planning and engineering authority. Instead of giving a large contract to an experienced company, they literally told company A to install some stuff, then they employed company B, then C and then D and in the end, nothing worked together. They had 3 ft thick bundles of electrical cables - every team of workers added to the same bundle!


csavel wrote:

Of interest to Airliners.net is that my brother who works in the construction industry told me that an exception was made for LGA and they are following modern construction techniques including (and I forgot the name) a contract where the construction companies get a set price for the job, if they do it under budget great, if not, then they are screwed. Cost overruns are borne by the company itself. Less incentive to boondoggle.

It seems to be working LGA construction is on schedule for the most part - amazing to see in NY!



That's exactly the approach used in New York for subway and rail projects, which goes a long way to explaining why New York has the highest subway construction costs in the world. In fact, in New York for big public projects, giving a contract to a single experienced company to manage the project is illegal. Cuomo has made a couple of exceptions recently, for projects like the new Tappan Zee, which might lead to more widespread use in future.

In fact, delays like BER are relatively common on big public infrastructure projects in many places. BER is exceptional in how close they got to completion before discovering the problems. If they had been stalled at about a year from completion for the last five years, it would likely be far less widely known.


Of interest to Airliners.net is that my brother who works in the construction industry told me that an exception was made for LGA and they are following modern construction techniques including (and I forgot the name) a contract where the construction companies get a set price for the job, if they do it under budget great, if not, then they are screwed. Cost overruns are borne by the company itself. Less incentive to boondoggle.

It seems to be working LGA construction is on schedule for the most part - amazing to see in NY!



The problem around NYC is having to build around things already there (remember that East Side Access and the Second Avenue Subway---the first segment finally opened last year---have to be deep-bored). When most of the subway system was built originally, development came afterward. Berlin Brandenburg's problem is largely the terminal building itself which was terribly, horribly, no good, very badly designed. I don't see any way BER can become operational with the current building standing. I think it has to be demolished and a new structure rebuilt that may be a bit more utilitarian but with all of the latest amenities, because face it, while Berlin is the political capital of Germany, Frankfurt will be its economic capital for a long time.

Returning to aviation, I have to wonder how much this can be compared to Denver International Airport (when it was replacing Stapleton Airport) and its baggage system, which delayed the opening of the current airport from October 1993 to February 1995, causing a $2 billion cost overrun. The automated baggage system's problems were never fully resolved and it has been mostly if not completely abandoned.

Now, as for LGA, I have to wonder if a lot of the lack of problems has to do with the fact that Delta is involved a lot in the construction. Say what you want about the terminals being fiefdoms (this came up a lot when JFK's operations melted down back in January), but the concept of leasing spots to airlines, consortiums, and private enterprise and having them build the terminals (the only terminal the Port Authority directly operates are LGA Terminal B and EWR Terminal 2) helps rein in costs a lot as construction companies are rarely servicing government directly.
 
brian415
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 am

A case study of BER would be a perfect additional chapter of this book, Great Planning Disasters, by Peter Hall:

https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520046078

Two notable planning disasters mentioned in the book are the Sydney Opera House and The Concorde. The disaster at BER would trump both of the above, IMO.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:33 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The problem around NYC is having to build around things already there (remember that East Side Access and the Second Avenue Subway---the first segment finally opened last year---have to be deep-bored). When most of the subway system was built originally, development came afterward.


That's one of the excuses we hear a lot in NYC, but it's hardly valid. Does the MTA think subways in Paris, London, and Tokyo aren't also built around enormous development? In fact all of those cities are far older and have more complex underground infrastructure than New York. Second Avenue is actually an extremely simple project: built under a wide avenue, with no interchanges, and not crossing any other subway lines. Compare that with Paris Metro Line 14, the Tokyo Fukutoshin line, or London's Crossrail--all built for far less per mile than New York, all in cities that have land costs at least as high as New York, and all far more complex projects.

Now, as for LGA, I have to wonder if a lot of the lack of problems has to do with the fact that Delta is involved a lot in the construction. Say what you want about the terminals being fiefdoms (this came up a lot when JFK's operations melted down back in January), but the concept of leasing spots to airlines, consortiums, and private enterprise and having them build the terminals (the only terminal the Port Authority directly operates are LGA Terminal B and EWR Terminal 2) helps rein in costs a lot as construction companies are rarely servicing government directly.


Delta isn't involved in the current Central Terminal Building project at LGA, though. They're handling the reconstruction of their own terminals.

mxaxai wrote:
That doesn't always work. Usually these projects are for important parts of the infrastructure and they tend to be custom made. If a company bankrupts the next offer by its competitors will be a lot higher than the initial estimate. And you can't just leave it unfinished or wait for a few years to settle all the lawsuits.


You're right that these design-build projects can still be risky. If a private consortium had screwed up as badly as BER, they would just declare bankruptcy on the project company and leave the public holding the bag anyway. Many public-private partnership contracts are not designed well enough to prevent that. But design-build, at least in the New York context, has definitely led to quicker project completion and lower project costs in recent examples.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:24 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Even in Germany, it is for some reason always the high-profile prestige project that runs into these issues and almost always is connected to the local government doing things wrong. Once projects are run by companies (e. g. terminal expansions) they suddenly work almost flawlessly.
The problem is the lack of proper supervision, but this is not just an issue that affects local governments (see the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg), but also state-federal projects like Stuttgart 21 and BER, where a big chunk of all the financing is from the federal government, are involved. Stuttgart 21 has been having cost overruns, BER is a stillbirth. They only look at who is the lowest bidder, because they don't want the tax payer to get pissed off about wasting a lot of money in such projects, but in the end, the tax payer has to pay for the cost overruns anyway.

I agree with whoever suggested that companies that are responsible for the cost overruns should be held liable for the entire overrun. But in Germany, this leads to the question of unemployment and the fear that, if that company has to pick up the tab for the cost overruns they have caused (e.g. through underestimating the amount of money required or construction errors), it would possibly end up in the company getting bankrupt and people getting laid off. And that would be pinned on the local and federal government.

Anyone remember Philipp Holzmann AG? Because that's the argument governments in Germany would likely make to not make that company pay the overruns alone, because they wouldn't want something like the bankruptcy of Philipp Holzmann AG (and even an unsuccessful bailout like Gerhard Schröder tried, of about 1 billion D-Mark in bridge loans and 250 million D-Mark in guarantees by the federal government, which totals about 832 million Euros in today's money) to ever happen again. And yes, I am aware that Philipp Holzmann has more to do with corporate incompetence, but nevertheless, I still think it's an argument that state and federal governments would use if they don't pick up the tab for massive overruns and therefore making the tax payer liable for it.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
petertenthije
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:56 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Even in Germany, it is for some reason always the high-profile prestige project that runs into these issues and almost always is connected to the local government doing things wrong. Once projects are run by companies (e. g. terminal expansions) they suddenly work almost flawlessly.
I don't think that's entirely fair. Government projects are under a higher degree of scrutiny by the press and public, simply because they are public projects. In addition, in most decmocratic countries, the (local) governments are obliged to inform all of parliament of screw-ups. The opposition party/ies love to bring these screw-ups into the public, because they can use it to score political points for the next election.

A failed project run by a company can be somewhat swept under the rug. Unless the (financial) impact is large enough to impact stock prices. And that assumes the company is listed on the stock exchange to begin with.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
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sofianec
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:17 pm

This is such a black eye for Berlin, now that I think about it they MUST demolish whatever there is to demolish and then plan and execute a grand masterplan to make a new Berlin airport in 3 phases
- Main Terminal building with 2 parallel runways - opening capacity 40 million not a soul less to open
- Main Extension for capacity 15 million to be opened within 4 years of Main opening.
Close Tegel
Attract a major tenant
Make Schonefeld into a LCC only terminal. Make it state-of-the art for LCC ops.
A350WARP
 
vfw614
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 pm

German broadsheet FAZ reports that Lufthansa board member and Eurowings CEO Thorsten Dirks has predicted at a recent conference of business leaders that BER will ultimately be demolished and rebuilt from scratch....

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/u ... 99320.html
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:54 pm

If even a Lufthansa board member is openly talking about the possibility of tearing down BER and starting from scratch, you know things got flushed down the toilet. Question is: will the governments of Berlin and Brandenburg, as well as the federal government, listen? I don't think so. Either way, whatever the choice, there will be political backlash because ultimately, the tax payer will pick up the tab and the costs would be written off.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
mxaxai
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:42 am

LTU932 wrote:
The problem is the lack of proper supervision, but this is not just an issue that affects local governments (see the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg), but also state-federal projects like Stuttgart 21 and BER, where a big chunk of all the financing is from the federal government, are involved. Stuttgart 21 has been having cost overruns, BER is a stillbirth. They only look at who is the lowest bidder, because they don't want the tax payer to get pissed off about wasting a lot of money in such projects, but in the end, the tax payer has to pay for the cost overruns anyway.

petertenthije wrote:
I don't think that's entirely fair. Government projects are under a higher degree of scrutiny by the press and public, simply because they are public projects. In addition, in most decmocratic countries, the (local) governments are obliged to inform all of parliament of screw-ups. The opposition party/ies love to bring these screw-ups into the public, because they can use it to score political points for the next election.

A failed project run by a company can be somewhat swept under the rug. Unless the (financial) impact is large enough to impact stock prices. And that assumes the company is listed on the stock exchange to begin with.

Government tenders are required to pick the lowest bidder. And, as you both state, such government projects are under heavy public scrutiny so any project costing more than absolutely neccessary will not receive public approval. A private company could simply pick a contractor they have been happy with - even if it is not the cheapest - and, indeed, do not have to worry about the socio-political effects of its possible bankruptcy.
vfw614 wrote:
German broadsheet FAZ reports that Lufthansa board member and Eurowings CEO Thorsten Dirks has predicted at a recent conference of business leaders that BER will ultimately be demolished and rebuilt from scratch....

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/u ... 99320.html

Apperently this was just hyperbole to point out how much of the non-safety critical parts may have to be redone prior to actually opening the terminal, e. g. branding, and other furnishings, as well as the electronics.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/u ... 99796.html

FlyingJhawk wrote:
Maybe it's time to start a "Things That Will Be Accomplished Before BER Opens" thread.

Maybe the airport in Stuttgart (STR) will get a new 4th terminal before BER opens. :scratchchin: First design competition is this year, planned opening date by 2025. Cost: <300 million €.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:04 am

LH meanwhile denied that the EW CEO has said that or really meant what he said. But what he might have said is, that all the Investments LH made in BER have to be scraooed before they could be used commercially.. In the years since the planned opening LH has executed a strategy Change and gave not only the core Company a new Profile.

In all These years FBB, the Berlin Airports Holding Company, was not even able to Change that famous escalatir with that build-in death trap of arriving one step short.

For the Berlin Senate and the Brandenburg state government, an Airport is primarily something that makes noise from which People Need to be protected. That Airports generate Jobs, income, add to the GNP both direct and indirect and the fact that Airports are voital for the accessability of a Region, all that are unknown matters to ideological mis-guided morons. They Claim that keeping TXL open would cost a Billion €, as if that amount becomes payable instantly, the fact that keeping TXL open to accommodate passenger numbers whoch could not be dreamed upon by the mid nineties, does not get Access to These narrow minded guys. The fact that accommodate These passengers which otherwise might go to other cties for their Weekend break and congress venues generates income does not find entry into These Brains.

Withut a General Change in this attitude, without the acceptance that a Commercial Enterprise Needs income to be sustainable, there won't be an end to thiis manifested incompetence.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
vfw614
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:52 am

LH meanwhile denied that the EW CEO has said that or really meant what he said. But what he might have said is, that all the Investments LH made in BER have to be scraooed before they could be used commercially.


Well, they have not denied that he said it, but they say that it was a comment made tongue in cheek "to highlight the amount of problems relating to BER".

It is a good question at what point in the past it would have cheaper to bulldoze the whole thing and start building again (it would probably also have been quicker...)
 
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EightyFour
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
NichCage wrote:
I find it pretty amazing that the new Istanbul Airport will be open by next year possibly. Construction only started in 2015 I believe, so they are doing a good job building an new airport for Istanbul in only a few years when it's urgently needed. Even the new Berlin airport was planned for much longer than the new Istanbul Airport, yet will open after it though.


And Beijing's new mega airport, which construction begins in 2016, expect to be completed in 2019,
and this is what the airport looks like now:
Image
Image

What make it so difficult for Berliner to build a proper and functional airport in 20 years?


Having been involved in various large government projects in China I know that any faults, problems, or issues with the new Beijing airport will never, ever be made public, and that the airport will be opened on time regardless of any serious issues. The loss of face would simply be too big to bear.
 
devron
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:40 am

PanHAM wrote:
In all These years FBB, the Berlin Airports Holding Company, was not even able to Change that famous escalatir with that build-in death trap of arriving one step short.


This sounds strangely fascinating do you have a link and are you sure its not fake news.
 
Airdolomiti
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:55 am

devron wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
In all These years FBB, the Berlin Airports Holding Company, was not even able to Change that famous escalatir with that build-in death trap of arriving one step short.


This sounds strangely fascinating do you have a link and are you sure its not fake news.


It's not fake news, unfortunately, and I doubt it has been solved yet. I believe it's located at one of the exits of the underground train station, outside the terminal building. Picture here: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1 ... s-BER.html
 
PanHAM
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:05 am

https://www.bild.de/news/inland/flughaf ... .bild.html

or Google "zu kurze Rolltreppen"

The escalators from the Train Station are too short, now, instead of turning These back and ordering new, Fitting escalators, they have build steps to fill the gap between the escalator and the floor. Anyone with half a brain can imagine the number of injuries, broken bones etc that will cause. They better put up a sign "No Americans please" to protect tFBB from legal action
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
devron
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:19 am

Really that is a death trap. But might be a money maker I'll book the first flight in make sure I break a leg ans sue them. They can't say they didn't know and haven't been warned.

Btw if you want to track the cost in real-time (german sorry)

https://www.flughafen-berlin-kosten.de/
 
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ua900
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:26 pm

PanHAM wrote:
LH meanwhile denied that the EW CEO has said that or really meant what he said. But what he might have said is, that all the Investments LH made in BER have to be scraooed before they could be used commercially.. In the years since the planned opening LH has executed a strategy Change and gave not only the core Company a new Profile.

In all These years FBB, the Berlin Airports Holding Company, was not even able to Change that famous escalatir with that build-in death trap of arriving one step short.

For the Berlin Senate and the Brandenburg state government, an Airport is primarily something that makes noise from which People Need to be protected. That Airports generate Jobs, income, add to the GNP both direct and indirect and the fact that Airports are voital for the accessability of a Region, all that are unknown matters to ideological mis-guided morons. They Claim that keeping TXL open would cost a Billion €, as if that amount becomes payable instantly, the fact that keeping TXL open to accommodate passenger numbers whoch could not be dreamed upon by the mid nineties, does not get Access to These narrow minded guys. The fact that accommodate These passengers which otherwise might go to other cties for their Weekend break and congress venues generates income does not find entry into These Brains.

Withut a General Change in this attitude, without the acceptance that a Commercial Enterprise Needs income to be sustainable, there won't be an end to thiis manifested incompetence.


Their attitude won't change. What they do isn't incompetent, it's deliberate.

TXL has made money all these years, while investments have been curtailed on grounds that it will shut down anyway. But as you say it's primarily viewed as a source of noise and pollutants, same as air travel in general when compared to trains. Today's politicians inherited TXL, it was well built and has therefore withstood all their abuse to date. If they had to build it today, they couldn't. Zero experience and worse, zero interest. They'd much rather to put some benches in the middle of a public roadway to create a meeting zone than to open a new airport: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/berl ... 99554.html

Berlin is relatively poor, most of the money there is either old West Berlin money, West German money, federal money, or state to state transfer money. The Eastern part of the city and the surrounding former Soviet-occupied zone continue to be an economic drag, and that's augmented by the Reds who govern in both Berlin and Brandenburg.

The West Berliners who run the SPD part of the government grew up in a town that was heavily subsidized and where economical production of goods and services didn't matter and frequently didn't exist. The overarching objective was to entice people to stay in this isolated island in a sea of Reds. The East Berliners who run the communist party there, and their Red cousins in Brandenburg were never good at economics either. After all, East Germany failed primarily because it was unable to fulfill the economic wishes of its people (providing the population with more western products, no more waiting periods for cars, modernization of factories, advances in microelectronics, etc) and that's because ideology was front and center for them, just like it's front and center for today's governments in Berlin and Brandenburg.

An old factory could benefit from a new highway so that revitalization can occur? Not interested, we prefer idyllic small towns with scenic rivers and forests.
Want an airport? Take a train to Frankfurt / Main, they have the biggest airport in Germany.
Schoenefeld not nice enough? We don't need air travel beyond PMI.
TXL maintenance and repairs? Not needed. It's going away in two years (it's always in two years, ever since 2009)
LH thinks demolishing BER is a good idea? Invest in long haul ex-TXL first, you just cut your JFK flight. I'm was an assistant to the mayor and I now run the airport, I know what to do ;-)

https://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/umland/ ... thansa-los
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
 
vfw614
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:14 pm

The airport CEO has shot back at Lufthansa and suggested that instead of minding someone else's business they should concentrate on their own business, particularly on offering longhaul routes from Berlin....
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:32 pm

EightyFour wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
NichCage wrote:
I find it pretty amazing that the new Istanbul Airport will be open by next year possibly. Construction only started in 2015 I believe, so they are doing a good job building an new airport for Istanbul in only a few years when it's urgently needed. Even the new Berlin airport was planned for much longer than the new Istanbul Airport, yet will open after it though.


And Beijing's new mega airport, which construction begins in 2016, expect to be completed in 2019,
and this is what the airport looks like now:
Image
Image

What make it so difficult for Berliner to build a proper and functional airport in 20 years?


Having been involved in various large government projects in China I know that any faults, problems, or issues with the new Beijing airport will never, ever be made public, and that the airport will be opened on time regardless of any serious issues. The loss of face would simply be too big to bear.


So? At lease the new Beijing Airport Terminal will be functioning from the day 1 it operates.
Today there is an news mentioning that numbers of FIDS montior installed in the BER have to be replaced
because someone had power the system on for years, therefore those monitors have came to the end of their life limit
inside a " not yet opened BER terminal". Should I considered this another loss of face issue for Berlin?
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:18 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The airport CEO has shot back at Lufthansa and suggested that instead of minding someone else's business they should concentrate on their own business, particularly on offering longhaul routes from Berlin....


Such statement can only come from the chairborne division ! TXL airport is just fullfilling the airport requirements of carriers such as Ryanair who just need a tent as a terminal.
Honestly what shall international travellers never seen Germany before think if they land in TXL ?!?
Never saw before an airport in Europe where toilet ladies sitting in front of the toilets collecting money. Don't know if this is still the case today.

Welcome to Germany's capital.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
DDR
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:48 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
In another news, 750 computer screens at BER - for example those that indicate arrival/departure times and gates - need to be replaced. They've been running ever since 2012 (the planned opening year). At leat, 100 still working screens will be used as spares at Tegel and Schönefeld.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/untern ... 98359.html

David


Why weren't they turned off after a month or so? What a waste of energy.
 
Andy33
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:47 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
Such statement can only come from the chairborne division ! TXL airport is just fullfilling the airport requirements of carriers such as Ryanair who just need a tent as a terminal.

Even the chairborne division can see that Ryanair don't currently fly from TXL at all. For years they have been flying from SXF. Starting in June they will begin flying from TXL for the first time ever, with only one route - to PMI. The SXF flights remain in place. By all means criticise TXL, it has a lot of faults, but at least understand that up to the collapse of Air Berlin, the Berlin airport used by LCCs was SXF. TXL was the airport mostly used by network/legacy carriers, tent or no tent.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:55 pm

DDR wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
In another news, 750 computer screens at BER - for example those that indicate arrival/departure times and gates - need to be replaced. They've been running ever since 2012 (the planned opening year). At leat, 100 still working screens will be used as spares at Tegel and Schönefeld.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/untern ... 98359.html

David


Why weren't they turned off after a month or so? What a waste of energy.


My only guess is that they were hopping the screens will catch fire and finally put this disaster out of its misery.
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
The airport CEO has shot back at Lufthansa and suggested that instead of minding someone else's business they should concentrate on their own business, particularly on offering longhaul routes from Berlin....


Such statement can only come from the chairborne division ! TXL airport is just fullfilling the airport requirements of carriers such as Ryanair who just need a tent as a terminal.
Honestly what shall international travellers never seen Germany before think if they land in TXL ?!?
Never saw before an airport in Europe where toilet ladies sitting in front of the toilets collecting money. Don't know if this is still the case today.

Welcome to Germany's capital.


The hexagonal terminal is hardly a tent either....... Do you mean SXF? I have landed there with people who'd never seen Germany before and they were stunned.
 
402679
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Re: Berlin Brandenburg more expensive and to open in 2020

Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
Maybe it's time to start a "Things That Will Be Accomplished Before BER Opens" thread.


I have a good one!
The metro line that would connect GRU airport to downtown São Paulo was supposed to be ready at the 2014 World Cup, lol.
It will be completed this year, L O L.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:04 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The airport CEO has shot back at Lufthansa and suggested that instead of minding someone else's business they should concentrate on their own business, particularly on offering longhaul routes from Berlin....
Then my response as LH's CEO would be: Then do something that makes those longhaul routes out of BER attractive for us, like reduced airport fees and other economic incentives.

They really think that just by the fact they are a capital, they're entitled to have longhaul routes operated by LH? Can anyone tell me if there were similar complaints coming from CGN when Bonn was still the West German capital and LH state-owned?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
DDR
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:15 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
DDR wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
In another news, 750 computer screens at BER - for example those that indicate arrival/departure times and gates - need to be replaced. They've been running ever since 2012 (the planned opening year). At leat, 100 still working screens will be used as spares at Tegel and Schönefeld.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/untern ... 98359.html

David


Why weren't they turned off after a month or so? What a waste of energy.


My only guess is that they were hopping the screens will catch fire and finally put this disaster out of its misery.


OMG I laughed out loud at that response. Great response, and possibly true.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:28 am

It's insane they left all those monitors on???? Now they have to replace them but what a waste of electricity?

Wouldn't it be faster and easier to tear this disaster down and build something new?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:46 am

vfw614 wrote:
LH meanwhile denied that the EW CEO has said that or really meant what he said. But what he might have said is, that all the Investments LH made in BER have to be scraooed before they could be used commercially.


Well, they have not denied that he said it, but they say that it was a comment made tongue in cheek "to highlight the amount of problems relating to BER".

It is a good question at what point in the past it would have cheaper to bulldoze the whole thing and start building again (it would probably also have been quicker...)


It might still be cheaper to implode the current building and build it over.

As for things that will be completed before Berlin Brandenburg opens: how about Phase II of the Second Avenue Subway in NYC, slated for completion in 2029? (Phase I opened in 2017.)
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:07 am

FlyingJhawk wrote:
Maybe it's time to start a "Things That Will Be Accomplished Before BER Opens" thread.


That's not a bad idea at all. Let's have some fun with it! Here are a few aviation-related projects going on around the world, all of which are rushing forward like a herd of snails! Which one(s) do you think will be accomplished before BER opens?

1) London's Heathrow gets a third full-length runway and opens two new terminal buildings;
2) Commercial passenger SST service returns, either via one of Boom Aviation's aircraft or another company;
3) A third Chicago-area airport is built and opens near Peotone (or, Meigs Field is rebuilt and reopens);
4) The Jeddah Tower, along with the Jeddah Economic City in Saudi Arabia, are completed and have tenants moving in. (The Tower is planned to be one kilometer [3,281 feet] in height, which makes it aviation-related!)

And, I'm sure that you creative posters at A*net can come up with many more. Thank you in advance for your posts!
"Tough times never last. Tough people do." - Dr. Robert H. Schuller
 
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EightyFour
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:19 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
EightyFour wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:

And Beijing's new mega airport, which construction begins in 2016, expect to be completed in 2019,
and this is what the airport looks like now:
Image
Image

What make it so difficult for Berliner to build a proper and functional airport in 20 years?


Having been involved in various large government projects in China I know that any faults, problems, or issues with the new Beijing airport will never, ever be made public, and that the airport will be opened on time regardless of any serious issues. The loss of face would simply be too big to bear.


So? At lease the new Beijing Airport Terminal will be functioning from the day 1 it operates.
Today there is an news mentioning that numbers of FIDS montior installed in the BER have to be replaced
because someone had power the system on for years, therefore those monitors have came to the end of their life limit
inside a " not yet opened BER terminal". Should I considered this another loss of face issue for Berlin?


It's a huge loss of face, and a huge embarrassment for Berlin no denying that. I am however saying that it's easy to be on time and on budget when problems and issues can, and will, be quietly swept under the rug.
 
irelayer
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:37 am

Noshow wrote:
Good points. But the fire protection issues could be used as a "comfortable" cover up for deeper problems below the surface (layout, capacity, build quality, lack of documentation and such) that prevent the airport to be opened anyway.


I can't comment on this specifically, because I only follow it loosely, mostly here on a.net. But in general, rework is very costly on a construction project. That's why companies employ experts from companies with experience building what you need them to build, and good reputations. This is so they get it right the first time.

Here is a recent example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harmon

That said, there seems to be some government inefficiencies at play here, but just from reading Wikipedia it seems the rework necessary to fix the shoddy construction is delicate and time-consuming.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:56 am

The only option is to make the Berlin the first green Capital in the world and have no airport at all.
 
FW200
Posts: 69
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Quoting the editorial of the February 2018 issue of (former East-) German aerospace magazine Flieger Revue:

»What do BER and the planet Mars have in common? - On both human beings are supposed to land one day.«

ua900 wrote:
But as you say it's primarily viewed as a source of noise and pollutants, same as air travel in general when compared to trains.


The ultra-leftist Berlin city political class, regarding itself as a self-declared »elite« (Socialist, Communist and the »melon-party« Greens - outside green, inside red) are uncapable of getting the Berlin railway-net as it had existed until the beginning of the 1950ies rebuilt as well:

The rebuilding of the track to Dresden, which is urgently needed for the shuttle-trains to BER, is beginning next month and is planned to be completed no sooner than 2025 (i.e. just in time for the opening of BER, if we are optimistic).

For the rebuilding of the tracks to the north (Nordbahn to Rostock, Neubrandenburg, Stralsund) and to the southwest (Potsdamer Stammbahn) planning work hasn't even begun yet (28 years after reunification of Berlin and Germany)! Those tracks had been built in the 19th century as double track railway lines and now the utterly incompetent politicians of Berlin and Brandenburg are considering to have them rebuilt (if they should decide to do so, which is far from being certain) as single-track lines! :banghead:

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/bahnexperte-fordert-mehr-investitionen-brandenburg-hat-schaden-genommen/20661610-2.html
 
r2rho
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:54 am

Didn't they say that by the time it opens it will be too small to handle all the traffic? Why not start building a second, new terminal (like MUC did for example) and use that one until all issues are resolved with the current one? I am sure they could build a new terminal before this open becomes operational.

Recently a new Master plan was presented with something like that. A sort of T2 - but not like MUC, more of a makeshift solution in the available space east of T1, connecting to the current north pier and a future south pier extension. IMO the only way BER can open is by building this makeshift T2 to buy time, opening the airport with it (while keeping SXF and TXL open), razing T1, and rebuilding it.

the BER development includes a new runway, extension of the existing SXF south runway, reconfiguration and extension of apron areas, and of course the new terminal.

It also included one other thing: the demolition of SXF's north runway. BER had an extra runway for free, but they got rid of this perfectly usable and readily available infrastructure. In fact, BER could have perfectly worked initially with SXF's runways, adding the south rwy later on.

As far as I know, if that runway is used, it legally triggers the closure of TXL. Makes sense.
I believe it’s the simultaneous operation of both runways that triggers the closure of Tegel.

Correct. The minute SXF starts operating both runways, TXL must legally close no later than 6 months afterwards. Which would be a desaster since in that case Berlin would be left with SXF only. So instead, there is now a fully operational runway sitting idle at BER/SXF. Yet another reason why the requirement to close TXL must be removed.
Can't they just fire the idiots in charge?
Politicians firing themselves??

Pratically Tegel airport will likely remain open forever. Which is the only good thing related to BER's chaos.
It is a miracle and a testament to its designers that TXL is somehow managing the traffic despite having been denied any investment for over a decade because "BER will open any day now". They need to stop denying reality and realize that, even if BER opens, TXL will need to stay on for many years, and deserves investment.

German broadsheet FAZ reports that Lufthansa board member and Eurowings CEO Thorsten Dirks has predicted at a recent conference of business leaders that BER will ultimately be demolished and rebuilt from scratch....

I'm pretty sure that up to around 2014-2015 it was probably cheaper and quicker to demolish the whole thing and start again. I still believe it is the best solution, even though at this stage it will likely be more expensive. But whoever takes the (brave and correct) decision to demolish the place will implicitly admit failure. Who wants to that? It is much better instead to keep kicking the can down the road and passing responsibility to others....
 
Noshow
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:57 am

BER is not the airport Berlin needs today anymore. Passenger numbers are way bigger than expected, airberlin is gone and people and airlines stick to and still move to Tegel airport while spartan Schönedeld cannot really attract business.
The overall airport concept is in need of some big strategic makeover. The new (non official) master plan for another BER terminal inside the terminal area is a proof of this desperation. BER is some 100 percent failure. Now move on. Don't pump in more money into this dustbin forever.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:15 pm

r2rho wrote:
Can't they just fire the idiots in charge?
Politicians firing themselves??
Even if they wanted to, I don't think neither the federal government, nor any of the 16 state parliaments have something that resembles an impeachment trial like in the US or in Brazil. Because if anyone needs to be fired, it's the person on top, be it called "chancellor", "Ministerpräsident (state premier)" or "mayor (in the case of Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg)". A change of the boss leads usually to a shakeup in the respective cabinet.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:24 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The airport CEO has shot back at Lufthansa and suggested that instead of minding someone else's business they should concentrate on their own business, particularly on offering longhaul routes from Berlin....

Isn't an airport required for long haul? ;)

Man, BER is as facinating as following Air India or Alitalia!

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:03 am

The problem at BER is the new terminal building. The airport itself is operating with the old SXF terminal. A decision has been made to not close down the SXF terminal, should the BER terminal open one day.
The problems at BER have not only been due to politics. It started out as a operation owned by private investors, including Hochtief, Fraport, ABB and Landesbank Berlin Holding, forming the BBF GmbH. It was moved later to public ownership after a lot of trouble.
Quite a few of the companies involved in planing and building the terminal went bust, including the original main contractor.
The main reason for not opening the terminal was the fire and smoke protection and alarm system. But there are a lot of other problems because of shoddy work and planing. There are leading persons in some private companies involved, accused of graft and some prosecuted and sentenced. Read through the Wikipedia article and be amazed what all can go wrong.
I assume that a big problems have been an architects grand design having no considerations for such mundane ideas as fire protection. On the other hand I could believe, that the current criteria used at BER would worldwide shut down quite a few airports, including German ones, their criteria being grandfathered.

I assume, that in 2011, when the troubles were realised, the best way would have been to blow up the terminal and start a new one.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:55 am

After the DUS fire alll Airports in Germny had to be brought up to state of the art. Standard. There are no Grandfather rights.

The reason for the Trouble was and is the then Mayor Wowereit. His decision to take over the planning supervision himseölf in order to save 1 Billion €. Six weeks before official opening he lied about the mess he created, telling the public that there are no pfroblems and the "BER" will be a great success.

Six weeks later that liar didnt even get a red face.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Indy
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:37 pm

What exactly is the problem with the airport? From the outside it looks complete, so it would see all of the work is inside. Couldn't they have gutted and completely rebuilt the inside in less than half the time this whole fiasco has taken place? How do the responsible parties keep dropping the ball? And I assume the person largely responsible for this mess walked away with lined pockets.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:58 pm

Indy wrote:
What exactly is the problem with the airport? From the outside it looks complete, so it would see all of the work is inside. Couldn't they have gutted and completely rebuilt the inside in less than half the time this whole fiasco has taken place? How do the responsible parties keep dropping the ball? And I assume the person largely responsible for this mess walked away with lined pockets.

Read #197. The exact problem is incredibly poor planning and leadership. As long as this persists, the failures will continue to happen till the sun goes super-nova.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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