DUSdude
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:24 pm

LTU932 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
I thought Germany was known for its engineering...
Yes, but if a project is being run by the government (local, state or federal), it's all about cost cutting. Even with prestige projects such as BER or Stuttgart 21, they give the projects to the lowest bidders, and then it only takes like a year or two minimum for the entire project to go overbudget because of things such as fundamental design flaws (which came to be because of the initial cost cutting), union problems and the sheer incompetence by the authorities to supervise the projects. And in the end, the tax payer has to pick up the tab, to never see that money again, while even people who get fired are fitted with a golden parachute to keep them from suing.


In all fairness, it wasn't that long ago that DUS proved that all of this could be done in German, on time and on budget and with an architecturally pleasing result. The problem at BER always was that they never had one single general contractor who would oversee the rest.
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:03 pm

LTU932 wrote:
... because of things such as fundamental design flaws (which came to be because of the initial cost cutting), union problems and the sheer incompetence by the authorities to supervise the projects.



Never heard of unions playing any role in the BER debacle... What do you mean?
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:24 pm

ITSTours wrote:
I thought Germany was known for its engineering...


It's absolutely not about engineering here. It's about project planning and systems integration.

So the company handed out contracts for subsidiary work, like power, cables for runway lighting, and those antennae that make beep-beep and lure planes to the right runway. But the subsidiaries were just told to lay the cables for these things, and not to care about how to arrange them. So they have several feet thick hodgepodge bundles of cables, prone to overheating, and posing a maintenance nightmare. And several of the cable tunnels are literally under water, because nobody was told to put in some holes for drainage.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ITSTours
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:34 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
I thought Germany was known for its engineering...


It's absolutely not about engineering here. It's about project planning and systems integration.

So the company handed out contracts for subsidiary work, like power, cables for runway lighting, and those antennae that make beep-beep and lure planes to the right runway. But the subsidiaries were just told to lay the cables for these things, and not to care about how to arrange them. So they have several feet thick hodgepodge bundles of cables, prone to overheating, and posing a maintenance nightmare. And several of the cable tunnels are literally under water, because nobody was told to put in some holes for drainage.


But that is what the systems engineering is.

Anyway your story tells they are very... very ill managed. Cannot believe this happened in 2010s Germany.....
As somebody pointed out DUS completed well a decade ago so at least you guys have other competent people.
 
ASA
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
I thought Germany was known for its engineering...


It's absolutely not about engineering here. It's about project planning and systems integration.

So the company handed out contracts for subsidiary work, like power, cables for runway lighting, and those antennae that make beep-beep and lure planes to the right runway. But the subsidiaries were just told to lay the cables for these things, and not to care about how to arrange them. So they have several feet thick hodgepodge bundles of cables, prone to overheating, and posing a maintenance nightmare. And several of the cable tunnels are literally under water, because nobody was told to put in some holes for drainage.



Sorry - it is ABSOLUTELY about engineering here. I am a Civil Engineer myself - and I have taken Airport Engineering classes. All those works you mention, should have been part of a designed master plan ... and if not designed, delivered, and supervised (during construction) accordingly ... the blame should be totally on the engineering team. Added later: [Project planning and integration of systems is part and parcel of engineering]. Just because those were "handed out contracts", the responsibility isn't gone ... in fact, there should be lots of litigations, fines, and penalties because of these.

Shifting gears ... when is the tentative opening as of now?
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:02 pm

Lilienthal wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
... because of things such as fundamental design flaws (which came to be because of the initial cost cutting), union problems and the sheer incompetence by the authorities to supervise the projects.



Never heard of unions playing any role in the BER debacle... What do you mean?
Just trying to make a point. Sure, BER did not have direct union issues, but you can't rule out that other prestige projects that are being built by state governments or even by the federal government itself can be plagued by union problems, even if only as "collateral damage" (e.g. like during the strike at Deutsche Bahn by the GDL in 2015, such a project could become affected by the broken down supply chain).
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Lilienthal
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:57 pm

ASA wrote:

Shifting gears ... when is the tentative opening as of now?



October 2020. But that requires that the fire alarm system gets accepted by supervising agencies no later than end of July this year, so they can begin testing of the airport's safety systems.

Another issue that popped up is that some of the cable routes used for critical safety systems were mounted with dowels that can't withstand heat (from a fire) for the required amount of time. This also illustrates a major problem at BER: bloating building regulations, especially concerning safety systems. Construction started fourteen years ago. By now, German building code has changed significantly and the people at BER have been playing catch-up for the past years. And every additional delay runs the risk of raising even more issues. For comparison: Safe to say that even the modern airports currently operating in Germany would never meet code today.


Well... Anyway... Last month the Airports's CEO declared that October 2020 can not be "unconditionally guaranteed" anymore. Good times...
 
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vaughanparry
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The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:15 pm

The BBC website has this today regarding BER: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-48527308

(Moderator: please move to existing thread if appropriate, thank you!)
 
devron
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:39 pm

Nothing new in the article still funny (although I pay taxes in Germany)

And some have even tuned this black humour into a business opportunity. Philipp Messinger and Bastian Ignaszewski have invented a board game based on the Berlin airport disaster. The main object of the game is to waste as much public money as possible.

I pick up a card saying some of the escalators from the train station were built too short, needing very expensive additions. "Everything on these cards," Mr Messinger says, "has really happened."


We will see if it opens next year.
 
Dominion301
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:02 pm

devron wrote:
Nothing new in the article still funny (although I pay taxes in Germany)

And some have even tuned this black humour into a business opportunity. Philipp Messinger and Bastian Ignaszewski have invented a board game based on the Berlin airport disaster. The main object of the game is to waste as much public money as possible.

I pick up a card saying some of the escalators from the train station were built too short, needing very expensive additions. "Everything on these cards," Mr Messinger says, "has really happened."


We will see if it opens next year.


It would be open already if they had just admitted the first construction attempt was such a disaster that it needs to be torn down and start over again.

What’s the bigger disaster for Berlin: BER opening or the insistence on TXL closing after BER’s some day opening, lol?
 
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Revelation
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:03 pm

Instead of worrying about 500k faults, they should worry about the biggest one, that BER is too small to handle the amount of traffic it needs to handle.

One thing the article did highlight well was how many changes were introduced once construction had started.

That is a recipe for the failure that we now have.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:27 pm

Interesting article... thanks for sharing. Bureaucracies at work it seems.

R100
R101
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Half a million only?
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:08 pm

We all know Germany can do far better, than the present as illustrated by this.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
DFWuser
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:14 pm

Cut your losses. Just tear down the damn thing and start over from scratch.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:53 pm

DFWuser wrote:
Cut your losses. Just tear down the damn thing and start over from scratch.


The great “real world” equalizer.
Build it and they will come.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Noshow
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:56 pm

Wouldn't it be an ideal hub for Alitalia one day?
 
FB330
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:23 pm

What is the latest on TXL and Schonefield? Will they definitely close?
 
YYZLGA
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:39 pm

FB330 wrote:
What is the latest on TXL and Schonefield? Will they definitely close?


BER is just a new terminal for Schoenefeld. If you mean the old terminal, then yes the current discussion has been to keep the SXF terminal open for ULCC flights, at least until the new terminal can be expanded.
 
steman
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:17 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
FB330 wrote:
What is the latest on TXL and Schonefield? Will they definitely close?


BER is just a new terminal for Schoenefeld. If you mean the old terminal, then yes the current discussion has been to keep the SXF terminal open for ULCC flights, at least until the new terminal can be expanded.


If one has to believe the master plan, the old SXF Terminl will be rebuilt and named T5 once BER is open and Ryanair has already said they will be using it. Lufthansa and Easyjet will be stationed at the T1 (the current new Terminal) while Eurowings will be using T2 which is under construction and will be directly connected to the north pier.
The plan also calls for a T3/4 just east of T1, accessible from the same land side and which will be connected to extensions of both the North and South pier. Finally T1 will receive a new Satellite directy connected to the centre of the main building and possible, in the far future, a separate western satellite to be connected via underground tunnels (like LHR T5s)
 
goosebayguy
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:20 pm

WHy not tear it down and build the DUS terminal design.
 
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LTU932
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
Instead of worrying about 500k faults, they should worry about the biggest one, that BER is too small to handle the amount of traffic it needs to handle.
It's called "Salamitaktik". Concentrate on only one problem at the time and then disclose to the public that they got the projected capacity wrong and need to spend more money to correct that. They probably already know, but they will not disclose anything right now on the subject.
DFWuser wrote:
Cut your losses. Just tear down the damn thing and start over from scratch.
While I support your argument because I'm also in favour of tearing BER down and starting from scratch, politicians will argue against that because they fear the wrath of the people as far as the cost is concerned. Lots of money has already been flushed down the toilet by the incompetence of the governments of Berlin and Brandenburg (and partly also the federal government), and the tax payer has to pick up the tab (as usual). Let's face it: We will never see that money ever again.

And let's not forget that it's election season in Brandenburg, they're voting for a new parliament in September and it looks like that Ministerpräsident Dietmar Woidke is doing poorly in the polls because his party (SPD) is on a nosedive and the populists on the rise. They'd have to run a so-called Kenya-coalition (CDU-SPD-Grüne, Black-Red-Green, like the colours of the flag of Kenya) to stay in power or at least avoid an AfD government. So, again, while I support tearing down BER and starting all over again, it is something that would prove to be toxic to the ongoing electoral campaign in Brandenburg.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
DFWuser
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:59 pm

LTU932 wrote:

And let's not forget that it's election season in Brandenburg, they're voting for a new parliament in September and it looks like that Ministerpräsident Dietmar Woidke is doing poorly in the polls because his party (SPD) is on a nosedive and the populists on the rise. They'd have to run a so-called Kenya-coalition (CDU-SPD-Grüne, Black-Red-Green, like the colours of the flag of Kenya) to stay in power or at least avoid an AfD government. So, again, while I support tearing down BER and starting all over again, it is something that would prove to be toxic to the ongoing electoral campaign in Brandenburg.


This abomination would become political schadenfreude. Then again, it has been for years now.
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LTU932
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Re: The BBC on BER: The airport with half a million faults

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:52 am

DFWuser wrote:
This abomination would become political schadenfreude. Then again, it has been for years now.
It's a "Dauerwahlkampf" in Germany. You have like six months of honeymoon after an election and then the campaigning starts again. Just look how the parties in the Bundestag get involved in local and state campaigns nowadays. Everything becomes collateral damage as a result of this perma-campaign, especially infrastructure and transportation projects like BER, which was basically a gift to Berlin because the federal government wanted an airport "worthy" of a capital, knowing that it'll never EVER be as big and important as FRA has become.

Then again, everywhere were you have electoral schedules like in the US or in Germany, that's where you'll be confronted with a 24/7 campaign, even if there is no official campaign underway. This, not just NIMBYs, courts and environmental activists, contributes to situations such as what we see with BER, not just projects getting into a stall, but also being mismanaged just for the sake of saving €€€.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
OlafW
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Re: Report: New BER airport unlikely to open before 2021

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 am

Lilienthal wrote:
By now, German building code has changed significantly and the people at BER have been playing catch-up for the past years. And every additional delay runs the risk of raising even more issues. For comparison: Safe to say that even the modern airports currently operating in Germany would never meet code today.


No real issue about the building codes. An airport is considered a "special building" anyway, so all requirements have to be in a wholesome Fire Protection Concept that the authority having jurisdiction will deem acceptable for the building you are planning to build. You can always refer to the requirements for certain building categories, but in the end, it comes down to a civil engineer or even better a fire protection engineer compiling a concept. This may include adopting standardized fire resistance ratings et.al. or engineering methods. Engineering method is what was used for the smoke extraction for example. You just have to prove that your proposed design works - and that's where the problem started at least for that partial system.

About old airport not meeting code, that depends. In general yes, they only have to be on par with the standards and approvals that were active when they were built. But extensive redesigns sometimes warrant an upgrade of the whole building or at least one section. I know of a major airport in Germany which has parts of its terminals operational on preliminary approval, and that for years, but that's an exception and certainly not what you would want on a newly built airport.

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