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User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:06 pm

T4thH wrote:

BER will open Oct-2020 (the more important information) .

Are we sure about that?
 
T4thH
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:29 pm

thekorean wrote:
T4thH wrote:

BER will open Oct-2020 (the more important information) .

Are we sure about that?


OK, the link is mostly behind a paywall, but first questions and answers not
https://edition.faz.net//faz-edition/unternehmen/2019-10-07/wer-den-flughafen-tegel-noch-erleben-will-muss-das-jetzt-tun/368281.html?GEPC=s3

Herr Lütke Daldrup, können wir ab 4. Oktober 2020 vom BER aus fliegen?
Wir werden im Oktober nächsten Jahres eröffnen. Das genaue Datum werden wir dem Aufsichtsrat Ende November mitteilen. Zurzeit prüfen wir, welches der sinnvollste Zeitpunkt sein könnte. Wir wollen die operativen Risiken so gering wie möglich halten. Es ist klar, dass wir nicht an einem Wochenende mit besonders viel Flugverkehr umziehen werden.

In short:
Question: Can we fly on 04-Oct-2020 from BER?
Answer: We will open in Oct next year. We will inform the BER council end of Nov-2019 on the date. We are still verifying, we will not move (from Tegel to BER) on a weekend with expected high amount of air travel.

Else they stated, Tegel will be closed as staff/equipment e.g. will be need in BER. They will move from Tegel to BER on a weekend.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1374
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:25 am

Sehr interessant. In other words, We'll believe it when we see it But a major mistake in closing Tegel. BER won't be big enough to handle what the demand is. I have found TXL depressing, but they could easily clean it up and make it a second Berlin airport.
 
Airdolomiti
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:05 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:36 am

If U2 really does get the south wing (or south pier?), it'll be interesting to see what they do with the jetways there. The south pier alone has 9, and I don't remember it having any bus boarding gates - those should be all in the main pier (A12-15, A24-25, B12-15, B24-25) and in the north pier, which was built with LCCs in mind. Then again, the terminal's been in construction for such a long time that things may well have changed in the meantime.

On a separate note, I too think that closing TXL altogether is a mistake. I would have kept it open at least for GA and governmental use so as not to interfere with commercial operations every time a Flugbereitschaft aircraft departs from BER. But the law is the law, and I don't see the slimmest chance of the government so much as discussing the idea of revising it despite all the calls for TXL to be kept open.

WingsOfLove wrote:
remote parking though? Berlin? winter?


Plenty of remote parking in TXL and SXF as it is, and it's perfectly OK, if a bit uncomfortable at times on account of ground handlers at both airports often using completely inadequate, regular city buses as opposed to actual airport apron buses that have doors on both sides. It bugs me to no end every time I come back home to Berlin, especially considering that one of the leading manufacturers of airport buses, COBUS, is a German company.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:54 am

This joke just keeps going because it is been sucessfully kept on low profile on the European mainstream media.
It is an embarrassment and should certianly cost government jobs.
I have never seen a project go so wrong.
With Frankfurt doing the job pretty well, I wonder if wouldn't be better to can the whole thing and build a massive LIDL there instead...
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5786
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:25 am

Jomar777 wrote:
With Frankfurt doing the job pretty well, I wonder if wouldn't be better to can the whole thing and build a massive LIDL there instead...


A new Berghain would ne a better fit for Berlin.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:58 am

superjeff wrote:
Sehr interessant. In other words, We'll believe it when we see it But a major mistake in closing Tegel. BER won't be big enough to handle what the demand is. I have found TXL depressing, but they could easily clean it up and make it a second Berlin airport.


Sorry, but I say no. Tegel has a capacity of 12 million and has to handle 22. It is located in middle of Berlin city, pretty sure, everyone nearby will be happy.
And even in the middle of Berlin, it is badly connected, only by bus or by car. It was the same with Tempelhof airport, everyone wanted to keep it, And Tempelhof is now really not any more acceptable as airport in middle of the city.

BER has already now a capacity of around 45 to 50 million. Schönefeld and Tegel together have now 34 million passengers.
Terminal 1 has/will start with a capacity of 27 to 30 million, it is near completion/final size, as north (part of/used by terminal 2) and south wing are already added. but there is still little bit space left for some additional capacity by some additional building parts.
Terminal 2 has a capacity of 5 to 10 million, it will be completed together/start with or shortly after Terminal 1
Terminal 5 is the airport Schönefeld, it has a capacity of 12 million.

Terminal 3 and 4 are already planned; without Terminal 5 (original it was not planned to be used but now it seems it will stay), BER shall get a capacity of around 60 million). So with Terminal 5 around 70 million and more are possible and it seems, terminal 5 will stay for a long.long time...perhaps for ever.

Also all other parts, cargo areas e.g. are already implemented (and waiting).

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1374
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:38 am

T4thH wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Sehr interessant. In other words, We'll believe it when we see it But a major mistake in closing Tegel. BER won't be big enough to handle what the demand is. I have found TXL depressing, but they could easily clean it up and make it a second Berlin airport.


Sorry, but I say no. Tegel has a capacity of 12 million and has to handle 22. It is located in middle of Berlin city, pretty sure, everyone nearby will be happy.
And even in the middle of Berlin, it is badly connected, only by bus or by car. It was the same with Tempelhof airport, everyone wanted to keep it, And Tempelhof is now really not any more acceptable as airport in middle of the city.

BER has already now a capacity of around 45 to 50 million. Schönefeld and Tegel together have now 34 million passengers.
Terminal 1 has/will start with a capacity of 27 to 30 million, it is near completion/final size, as north (part of/used by terminal 2) and south wing are already added. but there is still little bit space left for some additional capacity by some additional building parts.
Terminal 2 has a capacity of 5 to 10 million, it will be completed together/start with or shortly after Terminal 1
Terminal 5 is the airport Schönefeld, it has a capacity of 12 million.

Terminal 3 and 4 are already planned; without Terminal 5 (original it was not planned to be used but now it seems it will stay), BER shall get a capacity of around 60 million). So with Terminal 5 around 70 million and more are possible and it seems, terminal 5 will stay for a long.long time...perhaps for ever.

Also all other parts, cargo areas e.g. are already implemented (and waiting).

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.



I hope so. Berlin deserves a first class, world class, airport. But the powers-that-be have screwed it up so badly since inception that people are very jaded I their opinions. If it really opens in October, 2020, we will see :-)
 
T4thH
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:26 pm

superjeff wrote:
T4thH wrote:
superjeff wrote:
Sehr interessant. In other words, We'll believe it when we see it But a major mistake in closing Tegel. BER won't be big enough to handle what the demand is. I have found TXL depressing, but they could easily clean it up and make it a second Berlin airport.


Sorry, but I say no. Tegel has a capacity of 12 million and has to handle 22. It is located in middle of Berlin city, pretty sure, everyone nearby will be happy.
And even in the middle of Berlin, it is badly connected, only by bus or by car. It was the same with Tempelhof airport, everyone wanted to keep it, And Tempelhof is now really not any more acceptable as airport in middle of the city.

BER has already now a capacity of around 45 to 50 million. Schönefeld and Tegel together have now 34 million passengers.
Terminal 1 has/will start with a capacity of 27 to 30 million, it is near completion/final size, as north (part of/used by terminal 2) and south wing are already added. but there is still little bit space left for some additional capacity by some additional building parts.
Terminal 2 has a capacity of 5 to 10 million, it will be completed together/start with or shortly after Terminal 1
Terminal 5 is the airport Schönefeld, it has a capacity of 12 million.

Terminal 3 and 4 are already planned; without Terminal 5 (original it was not planned to be used but now it seems it will stay), BER shall get a capacity of around 60 million). So with Terminal 5 around 70 million and more are possible and it seems, terminal 5 will stay for a long.long time...perhaps for ever.

Also all other parts, cargo areas e.g. are already implemented (and waiting).

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.



I hope so. Berlin deserves a first class, world class, airport. But the powers-that-be have screwed it up so badly since inception that people are very jaded I their opinions. If it really opens in October, 2020, we will see :-)

The completion and opening of terminal 3 is already planned for 2029.
in German.
https://www.airliners.de/eroeffnung-terminal-ber-2029-a220-swiss/52173
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 223
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:46 am

T4thH wrote:
The completion and opening of terminal 3 is already planned for 2029


that may be way too conservative
 
Antarius
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:35 am

WingsOfLove wrote:
T4thH wrote:
The completion and opening of terminal 3 is already planned for 2029


that may be way too conservative


Typo. I think he may have meant 2092.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
889091
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:25 pm

If Reagan were alive today.......

Mrs. Merkel, "tear down this airport!" :-)
 
Lewton
Posts: 148
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:53 am

Which of the current SXF terminals will be used at Terminal 5?
Also, will the current S-Bahn stop for SXF still be in operation for people flying to/from Termibal 5?
From Hamburg with love.
 
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MD80
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:13 am

T4thH wrote:

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.


Being based at TXL, I honesty don´t believe, that the public transport system in Berlin is able to offer excellent connections. The public transport system is ridiculous compared to Tokyo etc..and the impoliteness (often misunderstood or falsely interpreted as "Berliner Schnauze") is the least problem when dealing with the demands of living in poorer parts of Berlin. On a weekly basis, I can`t count on bus connections and have to take a taxi to arrive on time for duties. Three raindrops or two snow-flakes and the traffic collapses.

I sincerly hope, that the public transport system will improve, but I know, that many of my colleagues and I (living close to TXL because we are only in Berlin because of our workplace at TXL and leave Berlin on day offs as often as we can) have to move closer to BER, because the public transport won´t allow us to remain in the north-west of Berlin. The geographical size of Berlin is that large and the connectivity that bad, that we won´t be able to arrive within 90 minutes (for example called from stand-by). The reliability will remain a huge problem. My previous employement was in trains - so I have basic knowledge, that the entire approach of the decision-makers is not based on logic or providing utmost reliability. Front-line employees have to deal with that mess because of angry passengers.

My positiveness about improvements deteriorated very soon, after I decided to be based in TXL an dafter I decided to rent a secondary flat.

Otherwise I could stop looking for a new secondary flat, because I know, that I will be able to arrive at BER from Reinickendorf (east of Tegel airport) within 45 minutes at any time.

The closure of TXL will be a stupid move, but we all have to deal with it. TXL airport is over-crowded and its infrastructure over-stressed. With much more (well-paid!) staff, additional buses, additional stairs, additional de-icing equipment, TXL could run like Osaka-Itami, Seoul - Gimpo or Washington - Reagan National and due to the size of Belrin, SXF and TXL could complement each other.

Just my two cents...
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Noshow
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:20 am

Closing TXL would be a mistake. Why does it still need to be done? The political rulings can be changed. Nobody needs to respect the known errors of former mayor Wowereit these days anymore.

AFAIK: The fine print only says that the airport company cannot operate two airports at a time. So how about selling Tegel airport to some other operator? It would be a huge money maker for Berlin.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:27 pm

MD80 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.


Being based at TXL, I honesty don´t believe, that the public transport system in Berlin is able to offer excellent connections. The public transport system is ridiculous compared to Tokyo etc..and the impoliteness (often misunderstood or falsely interpreted as "Berliner Schnauze") is the least problem when dealing with the demands of living in poorer parts of Berlin. On a weekly basis, I can`t count on bus connections and have to take a taxi to arrive on time for duties. Three raindrops or two snow-flakes and the traffic collapses.

I sincerly hope, that the public transport system will improve, but I know, that many of my colleagues and I (living close to TXL because we are only in Berlin because of our workplace at TXL and leave Berlin on day offs as often as we can) have to move closer to BER, because the public transport won´t allow us to remain in the north-west of Berlin. The geographical size of Berlin is that large and the connectivity that bad, that we won´t be able to arrive within 90 minutes (for example called from stand-by). The reliability will remain a huge problem. My previous employement was in trains - so I have basic knowledge, that the entire approach of the decision-makers is not based on logic or providing utmost reliability. Front-line employees have to deal with that mess because of angry passengers.


You really need to compare Berlin's public transport with just about any place outside Japan. It's paradise in that regard compared with anywhere in North America, the UK, and even much of Europe.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:38 pm

One gets tired of this endless do not close TXL talk.

BER will use the two fully independent runways that are now operating. As it is the SXF terminal uses the northern of the two runways, but being able to switch to the other runway with longer taxi times.

It starts off with being based on wrong numbers. Today there is TXL, build for 12 Mill capacity and the SXF terminal at BER expanded to 12 Mill capacity. Nominal capacity for both is 24 Mill together. Actual use is 22 Mill at TXL and 13 Mill at SXF, together 35 Mill.

When BER opens the SXF terminal will not close (a change from the original planing). So the BER terminal will only have to take the passengers from TXL.
The BER terminal is build for 27 Mill passengers, so it should not have difficulties to take the 22 Mill Tegel is doing now. The SXF terminal will keep most of it´s 13 Mill travelers.

The terminal 2 for BER is being build. First when that terminal opens, a draw down at the SXF terminal is expected. The terminal 2 should have a capacity of 6 Mill passengers, bringing the BER terminals up to a nominal capacity of 33 Mill. The terminal 2 should be finish not much later than the opening date of the main terminal 1.

Expansion plans to bring the terminal capacity at BER to 58 Mill passengers are in the works. The SXF terminal will first close when there is enough capacity at the BER terminals.

If there would be a will to continue using TXL one should thing about following points. TXL has an old and worn infrastructure. When BER was started to being build, there came a draw down of repairs and planed investments TXL. Today, if somebody should plan to use TXL in the future, the terminal and other infrastructure would have to be rebuild and I assume that TXL would need to close down for that, as there is no space to do that work parallel to operating that airport.

TXL will close when the BER terminal opens. People should stop discussing it.

One article in german describing expansion plans for the BER terminals.
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/haup ... 44636.html
Newer information to the above:
The expansion in T1 to bring it to 27 Mill capacity, is being done and will be finished when the terminal opens.
The T2 is being build for a capacity of 6 Mill pax. Using an expansion of the northern pier. The current T2 is marked T1e in the article above.
The planing works, including the building permission for T3 (T2 in the above article) is being done.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
steman
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:41 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
MD80 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.


Being based at TXL, I honesty don´t believe, that the public transport system in Berlin is able to offer excellent connections. The public transport system is ridiculous compared to Tokyo etc..and the impoliteness (often misunderstood or falsely interpreted as "Berliner Schnauze") is the least problem when dealing with the demands of living in poorer parts of Berlin. On a weekly basis, I can`t count on bus connections and have to take a taxi to arrive on time for duties. Three raindrops or two snow-flakes and the traffic collapses.

I sincerly hope, that the public transport system will improve, but I know, that many of my colleagues and I (living close to TXL because we are only in Berlin because of our workplace at TXL and leave Berlin on day offs as often as we can) have to move closer to BER, because the public transport won´t allow us to remain in the north-west of Berlin. The geographical size of Berlin is that large and the connectivity that bad, that we won´t be able to arrive within 90 minutes (for example called from stand-by). The reliability will remain a huge problem. My previous employement was in trains - so I have basic knowledge, that the entire approach of the decision-makers is not based on logic or providing utmost reliability. Front-line employees have to deal with that mess because of angry passengers.


You really need to compare Berlin's public transport with just about any place outside Japan. It's paradise in that regard compared with anywhere in North America, the UK, and even much of Europe.


I agree.
Berlin is not perfect and the public transport system is stressed by ongoing works, increased numbers of travellers and outdated infrastructures but it is still leaps and bounds above many other cities. Before living in Berlin I was in Rome. The increase in quality of living just because I don´t need a car and can use public transport to reach pretty much every corner of the city is worth the move, not to mention the ability to use bikes (try riding a bike in Rome, if you survive the unruly traffic and lack of bike lanes, you still have a city built on 7 hills to cross).

As for TXL, as I said in previous posts, of course the ruling can be changed and it can be kept open. But there is no political will and, if I´m not mistaken, there are already binding contracts for the redevelopment of the area which might be very expensive to break.
Berlin is destined to be a one airport city. Better accept that and move on.
 
787X30
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:50 pm

Noshow wrote:
Closing TXL would be a mistake. Why does it still need to be done? The political rulings can be changed. Nobody needs to respect the known errors of former mayor Wowereit these days anymore.


Wowereit had no role in Konsensbeschluss of 1996, the proponents and participants of which were then Gov. Mayor Diepgen (Christ. Dem.), the Minister-President of Brandenburg Stolpe (Soc. Dem.) and Federal Minister of Transport Wissmann (Christ. Dem.).
 
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Revelation
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:24 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
You really need to compare Berlin's public transport with just about any place outside Japan. It's paradise in that regard compared with anywhere in North America, the UK, and even much of Europe.

He does not, he gives specific examples of how Berlin's public transport is so unreliable he cannot rely on it to make his commitments.

It is immaterial if it is better or worse than other cities since he works in Berlin.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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horpdorp
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:49 pm

MD80 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

BER will be excellent connected to Berlin and the region around by highways, streets, regional trains and S-train. Most will get faster to BER than to Tegel.


Being based at TXL, I honesty don´t believe, that the public transport system in Berlin is able to offer excellent connections. The public transport system is ridiculous compared to Tokyo etc..and the impoliteness (often misunderstood or falsely interpreted as "Berliner Schnauze") is the least problem when dealing with the demands of living in poorer parts of Berlin. On a weekly basis, I can`t count on bus connections and have to take a taxi to arrive on time for duties. Three raindrops or two snow-flakes and the traffic collapses.


Your first problem is taking a bus. Not that I think BER will be great for those of us living in Charlottenburg/Wilmersdorf, or along the U7 anywhere really, but relying on bus->bus->bus is just not a great strategy in Berlin and I'm not completely sold that it's BVGs fault

I sincerly hope, that the public transport system will improve, but I know, that many of my colleagues and I (living close to TXL because we are only in Berlin because of our workplace at TXL and leave Berlin on day offs as often as we can) have to move closer to BER, because the public transport won´t allow us to remain in the north-west of Berlin. The geographical size of Berlin is that large and the connectivity that bad, that we won´t be able to arrive within 90 minutes (for example called from stand-by). The reliability will remain a huge problem. My previous employement was in trains - so I have basic knowledge, that the entire approach of the decision-makers is not based on logic or providing utmost reliability. Front-line employees have to deal with that mess because of angry passengers.


TXL is in the situation it is in because the city decided to stop the extension of the U7 from Jungfernheide to Tegel once the wall came down. If that existed, nobody would complain. Tegel is just about the only place that's not reasonably easy to get to on rail based transit within Berlin, especially given the size that you mention.

My positiveness about improvements deteriorated very soon, after I decided to be based in TXL an dafter I decided to rent a secondary flat.

Otherwise I could stop looking for a new secondary flat, because I know, that I will be able to arrive at BER from Reinickendorf (east of Tegel airport) within 45 minutes at any time.


At the risk of being accused of Schnause (I'm not even a Berliner by birth!) that seems like it's your personal issue, not Berlin's fault. The public transit maps were all publicly available when you were searching for an apartment.

The closure of TXL will be a stupid move, but we all have to deal with it. TXL airport is over-crowded and its infrastructure over-stressed. With much more (well-paid!) staff, additional buses, additional stairs, additional de-icing equipment, TXL could run like Osaka-Itami, Seoul - Gimpo or Washington - Reagan National and due to the size of Belrin, SXF and TXL could complement each other.

Just my two cents...


Gate constraining the airport to the hexagons, similar to how DAL works, would perhaps solve that issue (and give area for deicing, etc).
 
max999
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
You really need to compare Berlin's public transport with just about any place outside Japan. It's paradise in that regard compared with anywhere in North America, the UK, and even much of Europe.

He does not, he gives specific examples of how Berlin's public transport is so unreliable he cannot rely on it to make his commitments.

It is immaterial if it is better or worse than other cities since he works in Berlin.


Germans commonly complain about the poor state of their transport infrastructure. While there are specific examples where it sucks... Generally it is still better than many other developed countries like the US, other parts of Europe, etc.

So some complaints are warranted but to say it is bad all over the Germany is an over exaggeration.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Lewton
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:49 am

Having moved from Berlin to Hamburg, yes, the public transportation here works much better most of the time and especially the S-Bahn line to the airport is waaay more reliable than the S-Bahn or regional lines going to SXF in Berlin.
Does this mean that public transportation in Berlin sucks? No.
But they have to improve it.
I believe that the constant works going on are about improving it on the long term.
From Hamburg with love.
 
Noshow
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:03 pm

There is a pretty nice BVG "Express" bus to Tegel airport. Even during rush hours it goes around jams making smart use of more quiet roads and bus lanes. It might be crowded but it is nice and fast. Take that to the next S-Bahn station you like and you can get anyplace or right to midtown.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:51 am

Some news:

- on this Friday, the BER boss still wants to announce the definitive opening date (i.e. the date of the two-day move from TXL to BER), which, he says, shall still happen in October 2020
- the TÜV (a company that offers safety checks at fair attractions, Brazilian dams and buildings and whatnot) says the work on the known 16'000 faults is still ongoing slowly. If they're finished with those rectifications by end of 2019, a second round of checks will take place in 2020. These checks must be finished by June 2020 if the airport is to open in October.

This plan is still in danger because of the slow progress on these known faults.



https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/mus ... 68352.html
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:46 pm

New date for the opening of BER, the 31st of October 2020.

According to der Spiegel (in German):

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unter ... 98962.html

In the Tagesspiegel (again in German):

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/flug ... 84198.html

Tegel will close, but the old terminal in Schönefeld (SXF) will continue to operate until more space is build at the BER terminal.
It is not yet know if the terminal 2 of BER will open on the same date.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:22 pm

BER's opening will take place on October 31st, 2020.

In summer 2020, 20'000 people will test the passenger flows.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Revelation
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:58 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
BER's opening will take place on October 31st, 2020.

This date is chosen this way since October does not have 32 days! :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
BER's opening will take place on October 31st, 2020.

In summer 2020, 20'000 people will test the passenger flows.

"will" is a strong word. "scheduled" or "expected" may be more appropriate..
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
This date is chosen this way since October does not have 32 days! :biggrin:


When I typed this, I thought for a moment about whether I should write October 32nd. :cry2:

kalvado wrote:
"will" is a strong word. "scheduled" or "expected" may be more appropriate..


Try. Or do try. Open BER is not.

-- Yoda
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Jetsouth
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:37 pm

One wonders what will happen first: BER opening, 737 MAX back in the skies, or Baltia flying its first flight.....
 
mxaxai
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:47 pm

Independently from the current COVID crisis and associated delays at BER, the German air force (Flugbereitschaft) is planning to use TXL until at least 2029 for helicopter operations. So any major demolition or redevelopment of the area will have to wait until then. https://www.airliners.de/flugbereitscha ... 2029/54430
 
Antarius
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
You really need to compare Berlin's public transport with just about any place outside Japan. It's paradise in that regard compared with anywhere in North America, the UK, and even much of Europe.

He does not, he gives specific examples of how Berlin's public transport is so unreliable he cannot rely on it to make his commitments.

It is immaterial if it is better or worse than other cities since he works in Berlin.


I'll disagree on that as well. A large chunk of my family is from Berlin and we've never had the issues described here. TXL is one of the rare places that requires multiple connections by virtue of no Ubahn stop.

I also don't understand the desire to keep TXL open. It's bad enough having TXL and SXF. I don't see value in repeating this. Next we can reopen THF too?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
petertenthije
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:16 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Try. Or do try. Open BER is not.

-- Yoda

I think emperor Palpatine (from Robot Chicken) has a better version: "There is no try, there's do and then there's f---ing up royal.“
Attamottamotta!
 
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WROORD
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:59 pm

LTU932 wrote:
HHScot wrote:
At this rate I might be retired before it opens! What started off as a running joke is now a Grade A embarrassment!
An embarrassment is an understatement. Remember when people were talking about "Deutsche Wertarbeit" (German craftsmanship) being one of the things Germany is most famous for? Well, in this case, the incompetence of the people who planned the thing, the politicians and their ego trips (like Eberhard Diepgen, Manfred Stolpe, federal transportation minister Wissmann, maybe even Helmut Kohl himself, all back in the mid 90's), etc. have led to BER becoming a black hole for all the money the German tax payers have paid the federal government. It might have been better to build the new HAM in Kaltenkirchen to alleviate the problem Hamburg has with a landlocked airport with no room for expansion than to waste money on prestige projects for a place, that only gets that money because it's our nation's capital.


It's a bit off-topic, but I think the 'big dig' in Boston is still biggest disaster.
 
Dominion301
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:14 pm

With Covid-19, I’d be shocked it’ll open on 31 October. Actually even without it, I still would have been shocked.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:34 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Independently from the current COVID crisis and associated delays at BER, the German air force (Flugbereitschaft) is planning to use TXL until at least 2029 for helicopter operations. So any major demolition or redevelopment of the area will have to wait until then. https://www.airliners.de/flugbereitscha ... 2029/54430


You hardly need the whole airport for a heliport. They start redeveloping TXL the moment fixed wing traffic moves to BER.
 
B752OS
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Re: Report: New BER airport unliky to open before 2021

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:20 pm

WROORD wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
HHScot wrote:
At this rate I might be retired before it opens! What started off as a running joke is now a Grade A embarrassment!
An embarrassment is an understatement. Remember when people were talking about "Deutsche Wertarbeit" (German craftsmanship) being one of the things Germany is most famous for? Well, in this case, the incompetence of the people who planned the thing, the politicians and their ego trips (like Eberhard Diepgen, Manfred Stolpe, federal transportation minister Wissmann, maybe even Helmut Kohl himself, all back in the mid 90's), etc. have led to BER becoming a black hole for all the money the German tax payers have paid the federal government. It might have been better to build the new HAM in Kaltenkirchen to alleviate the problem Hamburg has with a landlocked airport with no room for expansion than to waste money on prestige projects for a place, that only gets that money because it's our nation's capital.


It's a bit off-topic, but I think the 'big dig' in Boston is still biggest disaster.


Yes there were large cost overruns with the Big Dig in Boston, but the project still was completed and completed within a reasonable time frame from the original scope. Downtown Boston has been improved immensely since its completion. So I would not use the Big Dig as an example of a bigger disaster than this airport in Berlin.
 
T4thH
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:20 pm

BER; the never ending story seems to end.

BER got approval by the TÜV. So it seems all changes regarding safety systems at the terminal building have been accepted and approved. All documents have been now collected and send for approval. So, opening date in OCT-2020 is now high likely, no further delay feared/expected.
"Bei der Inbetriebnahme im Oktober 2020 sehen wir keine Risiken"


Source is in German.
https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Tuev-genehmigt-BER-article21727113.html
 
mxaxai
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:15 pm

The passenger test of the new terminal/airport, that was planned for Q2, was recently pushed to Q3 due to COVID19, though. If this test uncovers issues there won't be much time to fix them.
 
Noshow
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:40 pm

What are the next big steps that are needed before it can legally open?
 
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ua900
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:22 pm

Noshow wrote:
What are the next big steps that are needed before it can legally open?


The airport authority sent the TUV documents to the building authority of the responsible county, who will now have to review and approve the documentation that's required for the airport to become operational. That building authority previously had the airport stop work at the construction site due to serious flaws and issues, so it's not just a formality, even though the airport authority likes to say that. They will have to agree that the airport is ready to start operations. FWIW, the airport authority stated that Terminal 2 won't be ready in time for October, and the federal government, which owns 1/3 of the airport authority, states that they won't move government flight operations over to SXF/BER anytime soon, thus leaving open a window for TXL to stay open for government flights due to the federal government terminal at SXF/BER not being up to snuff.

In other words, the guy who currently heads the airport authority is trying everything he can to say that the airport opened on time, but it's obvious that many parts of the new airport won't be operational in October. He might be able to get away with it *if* traffic doesn't recover quickly, but if it does then BER/SXF capacity will be insufficient. For him, the whole 'rona thing was a real blessing from that angle. But from a monetary angle the airport authority will also need to secure lots of additional funding. TXL profits helped to offset the steep costs at the BER construction site.

Now that TXL isn't profitable due to the 'rona and BER won't be profitable even if it does open in 2020, the airport authority has requested another 800 million euros in order to tide them over, and those have not yet been approved by the owners of the airport, the states of Berlin and Brandenburg, as well as the federal government. Eventually, they'll either go bust altogether or remain this huge boondoggle that keeps needing hundreds of millions each year, since it's going to be tough for them to turn a profit with all this debt. Curiously only 300 of these 800 million seem to be directly related to the 'rona, so that indicates the possibility of yet another cover-up to the tune of 500 million that was aided by the 'rona. It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

mxaxai wrote:
The passenger test of the new terminal/airport, that was planned for Q2, was recently pushed to Q3 due to COVID19, though. If this test uncovers issues there won't be much time to fix them.


:checkmark:
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TXL
 
T4thH
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:33 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The passenger test of the new terminal/airport, that was planned for Q2, was recently pushed to Q3 due to COVID19, though. If this test uncovers issues there won't be much time to fix them.

They have already performed the passenger tests two or three times in last years (always when they were planning to open in "few month" timeline...again and again)? According to my knowledge all these have performed without any real finding, everything was running accordingly/as expected. The main issue was always the fire security at BER, not that the regular systems at the airport did not work.
 
Lewton
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 pm

ua900 wrote:
It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

Some officials lost their jobs due to the disastrous handling.
What else would been more appropriate?
From Hamburg with love.
 
T4thH
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:01 pm

ua900 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
What are the next big steps that are needed before it can legally open?


The airport authority sent the TUV documents to the building authority of the responsible county, who will now have to review and approve the documentation that's required for the airport to become operational. That building authority previously had the airport stop work at the construction site due to serious flaws and issues, so it's not just a formality, even though the airport authority likes to say that. They will have to agree that the airport is ready to start operations. FWIW, the airport authority stated that Terminal 2 won't be ready in time for October, and the federal government, which owns 1/3 of the airport authority, states that they won't move government flight operations over to SXF/BER anytime soon, thus leaving open a window for TXL to stay open for government flights due to the federal government terminal at SXF/BER not being up to snuff.

In other words, the guy who currently heads the airport authority is trying everything he can to say that the airport opened on time, but it's obvious that many parts of the new airport won't be operational in October. He might be able to get away with it *if* traffic doesn't recover quickly, but if it does then BER/SXF capacity will be insufficient. For him, the whole 'rona thing was a real blessing from that angle. But from a monetary angle the airport authority will also need to secure lots of additional funding. TXL profits helped to offset the steep costs at the BER construction site.

Now that TXL isn't profitable due to the 'rona and BER won't be profitable even if it does open in 2020, the airport authority has requested another 800 million euros in order to tide them over, and those have not yet been approved by the owners of the airport, the states of Berlin and Brandenburg, as well as the federal government. Eventually, they'll either go bust altogether or remain this huge boondoggle that keeps needing hundreds of millions each year, since it's going to be tough for them to turn a profit with all this debt. Curiously only 300 of these 800 million seem to be directly related to the 'rona, so that indicates the possibility of yet another cover-up to the tune of 500 million that was aided by the 'rona. It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

mxaxai wrote:
The passenger test of the new terminal/airport, that was planned for Q2, was recently pushed to Q3 due to COVID19, though. If this test uncovers issues there won't be much time to fix them.


:checkmark:

Sorry, but what are you talking about?
 
oldJoe
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:06 pm

Lewton wrote:
ua900 wrote:
It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

Some officials lost their jobs due to the disastrous handling.
What else would been more appropriate?

Even they lost their jobs, they filled their pockets with €€€ !
Bring them to court and sue these corrupt people ( liars )
 
T4thH
Posts: 1083
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:01 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Lewton wrote:
ua900 wrote:
It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

Some officials lost their jobs due to the disastrous handling.
What else would been more appropriate?

Even they lost their jobs, they filled their pockets with €€€ !
Bring them to court and sue these corrupt people ( liars )

According to this:
Even they lost their jobs, they filled their pockets with €€€ !

No, not really. It was just the complete loss of oversight in several levels. It was not, that someone was earning high amount of money, this is not the case in Germany. They have just earned the regular amount of money, that are allowed to earn.A t least the complete BER failed regarding one person.....and the loss of oversight by the responsible teams to control it.

There were many issues, still, the BER terminal would have been completed as planned with a small delay. And this delay was just because one of the first steps was delayed, for which the BER team was not responsible .The BER terminal is build on top of the new build underground railway station (in responsibility of German railway system team), the railway station building carcass was completed with delay. the BER terminal building could not start.
The "engineer", responsible for fire safety...was no "engineer" for fire safety....he has had faked his documents, and this was not recognized for years...It was a former student, who has been kicked after 2 semester, because he was to stupid and failed. He has faked the documents...was working for years as responsible engineer for the fire safety and has performed the complete plan for the fire safety system. He has had some genius ideas like fume outlets at floor plate level, as we all know, hot smoke is always going down to the floor, as hot air is heavier as cold air :banghead: ....seems I am just no able to understand his genius.... :duck:
And the complete loss of oversight, as the whole engineer team was not able to recognize his "genius" over years and the loss of oversight by the controlling team, formed by politicians.
 
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ua900
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:13 am

T4thH wrote:
No, not really. It was just the complete loss of oversight in several levels. It was not, that someone was earning high amount of money, this is not the case in Germany.


Well, that's exactly the point, oversight is their core job and the people at the top of this outfit did and do earn a high amount of money. While perhaps not engineers by trade, all airport leaders have a small army of deputy chiefs, directors, senior managers, and managers who are technical specialists in their field. And all of them draw a nice payroll as well.

Rainer Schwarz, who led the airport from 2006 to 2013, made €30,000 per month and continued to get paid that amount through 2016 due to having a contract that ran through 2016, even though he got fired back in 2013, plus another €140,000ish in additional pension contributions.

Hartmut Mehdorn, who led the airport from 2013 to 2015, made €50,000 per month, and an annual bonus of €150,000.

Karsten Mühlenfeld, who led the airport from early 2015 to early 2017, made over €42,000 per month.

Engelbert Lütke Daldrup, who has led the airport since early 2017, makes around €42,000 per month as well.

That's four people who have led the airport for 2-6 years each and have each received over €1 million for that dubious track record. Add to that the many managers, senior managers, directors, deputy chiefs that have fleeced the airport (and the taxpayers) over the years. Many of these people had significant airport, airline, public transit, architectural, and engineering experience on their resumes. Of course one can always say that a CEO / President isn't responsible for *everything*, but at some point (maybe after the second guy) the politicos should have asked themselves if *just maybe* it's also a toxic culture that enables these constant snafus.

The airport was supposed to cost the taxpayers just under €2 billion, recently that was estimated to be €7.3 billion, but that was before the current ask for the additional €800 million, so that would be €8.1 billion and counting now. It shows that while these "leaders" have enjoyed a nice payday, their €5-7 million in compensation is just the tip of the iceberg and shows us that thousands of others have dipped their paws into that honey pot.

If what they've "earned" isn't a high amount of money, especially in such an economically struggling region devoid of industry, then please sign me up for a 2 year plus term at that eternal construction site. The average wage in that part of Germany seems to be between €33k and €41k per year, and if I can have a job that pays 10x-14x of that while there's a "complete loss of oversight" and that's deemed to be OK then I'll gladly participate.

Lewton wrote:
ua900 wrote:
It's amazing how gullible German taxpayers (especially in Berlin and Brandenburg) are. In most other places this sort of incompetence over the past 10-15 years would have likely resulted in at least one change of government.

Some officials lost their jobs due to the disastrous handling.
What else would been more appropriate?


IMHO not handing them a golden parachute on their way out would have been more appropriate.
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TXL
 
olle
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:56 am

Is it finally opening?

What a timing ;-)

https://www.dw.com/en/new-berlin-airpor ... a-51471371

Germany's long-delayed Berlin Brandenburg Airport (BER) is set to finally be operational on October 31, 2020, nine years after it was supposed to open.
 
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Revelation
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Re: BER News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:25 am

olle wrote:
Is it finally opening?

What a timing ;-)

https://www.dw.com/en/new-berlin-airpor ... a-51471371

Germany's long-delayed Berlin Brandenburg Airport (BER) is set to finally be operational on October 31, 2020, nine years after it was supposed to open.

Perfect timing: We no longer need to worry that it is too small to deal with the passenger load!

This will demonstrate the true genius of those involved in planning BER!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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