Anyone have any news or thoughts on long haul routes from BER once open. UA to EWR, TK to IST (not longhaul) - maybe an EK 5th freedom? Or DL yearround to JFK?

deltatrav wrote:

Anyone have any news or thoughts on long haul routes from BER once open. UA to EWR, TK to IST (not longhaul) - maybe an EK 5th freedom? Or DL yearround to JFK?

Obviously international travel needs to become possible again, so not for a while. Still, there are a few routes that seem fairly likely sooner or later. Berlin and the surrounding area is increasing in wealth and connectivity.
- EWR with UA
- ATL or JFK with DL
- Florida or Carribean with EW or DE (if any of them still exists)
- PEK whoever has traffic rights.
- DOH with QR (if their hub still exists then)
- ULN with OM maybe seasonal 2x weekly

BER finally opening at one of the worst times of modern aviation history is almost propheticaly appropriate considering the past decade of blunder!

For all the woes and ridicule, I hope that the opening goes smoothly (if it does indeed open!) and the sorry saga of construction can be put into the academic books of "How not to build an airport!"

AA to PHL.

Breathe wrote:

BER finally opening at one of the worst times of modern aviation history is almost propheticaly appropriate considering the past decade of blunder!

For all the woes and ridicule, I hope that the opening goes smoothly (if it does indeed open!) and the sorry saga of construction can be put into the academic books of "How not to build an airport!"

For BER it will be good. Since there will be presumably little traffic in October, it will much easier to manage an airport with, let's say, 50k than 100k PAX/day if there are early operational issues. A "soft opening" by nature of the post-COVID world.

As the old saying goes:

Better late, than never!

Any recent photography or video available, showing us BER as it looks now ?

JannEejit wrote:

Any recent photography or video available, showing us BER as it looks now ?

Not really many or good ones.LH is just parking aircrafts there. If you are still interested do Google search : Lufthansa parkt Flugzeuge am BER. If you click Bilder , this is maybe what you like see ? Hope this helps you !?

BER has got the operation licence.

In German:
https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2020-04/ ... eroeffnung

The never ending story....is ending.

The final acceptance by district "Spreewald" has been performed. BER can start as planned/scheduled on 31-Oct-2020.
Sources are in German:
https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Landkreis-Dahme-Spreewald-gibt-BER-frei-article21745924.html
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/hauptstadtflughafen-ber-darf-eroeffnen-a-db023f04-8297-4a57-8da6-c43ff6bd9f3b
Construction progress for Terminal 2 was also back in plan, so shall be also open on time.on 31-Oct-2020. Regarding Coronavirus pandemic, 20% of the workers, who are from foreign countries, can now not come to the airport.

So what's going to happen to the hated/beloved TXL airport? Demolish it immediately on November 1st or will they operate it together with BER for a while to see how things are going?

PANAMsterdam wrote:

So what's going to happen to the hated/beloved TXL airport? Demolish it immediately on November 1st or will they operate it together with BER for a while to see how things are going?

Yes , at least until May 2021 this airport will not be demolished.

Breathe wrote:

BER finally opening at one of the worst times of modern aviation history is almost propheticaly appropriate considering the past decade of blunder!

For all the woes and ridicule, I hope that the opening goes smoothly (if it does indeed open!) and the sorry saga of construction can be put into the academic books of "How not to build an airport!"

I honestly came to this thread to find the estimated delay due to Convid19. I did not expect authorization to open.

Lightsaber

Actually, they’re developing plans to start early, as the airport operator is keen to shut down TXL to save on costs, while airlines don’t want to move twice/thrice (to SXF, maybe back, and then to BER). They might even open early June.

DUSZRH wrote:

Actually, they’re developing plans to start early, as the airport operator is keen to shut down TXL to save on costs, while airlines don’t want to move twice/thrice (to SXF, maybe back, and then to BER). They might even open early June.

if you don`t know how things are done in Germany , dream on

I'll be a bit sad if they actually manage to close TXL soon. Before COVID-19, I was planning to visit Germany for the first time this month and looked forward to seeing TXL since it's such a unique/odd airport. Don't know when I'll be able to make my trip now.

lightsaber wrote:

[...]I honestly came to this thread to find the estimated delay due to Convid19. I did not expect authorization to open.

Lightsaber

The chaos isn`t over yet, so stay tuned!

The local county authority in charge has just rubber-stamped one important document. But right now, the BER folks are unable to perform the compulsory passenger simulation tests because of the CoViD-19 restrictions. And then the operating company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

lightsaber wrote:

Breathe wrote:

BER finally opening at one of the worst times of modern aviation history is almost propheticaly appropriate considering the past decade of blunder!

For all the woes and ridicule, I hope that the opening goes smoothly (if it does indeed open!) and the sorry saga of construction can be put into the academic books of "How not to build an airport!"

I honestly came to this thread to find the estimated delay due to Convid19. I did not expect authorization to open.

Lightsaber

Terminal 1; they have to perform some trial runs in Aug-2020; as already several times performed prior, nothing has to be feared.

A delay can be feared for for the new and additional Terminal 2, as it is still in completion. For some equipment of airports, specialist will be needed. Often for some equipment or airports or terminal buildings, there are just one or two companies globally and few small crews, traveling from one airport building site to the next. These can not be replaced by local groups, if they are not allowed to travel from construction site in one country to construction site of the next country.....no luggage belts e.g.-> building can not completed.

Kilopond wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

[...]I honestly came to this thread to find the estimated delay due to Convid19. I did not expect authorization to open.

Lightsaber

The chaos isn`t over yet, so stay tuned!

The local county authority in charge has just rubber-stamped one important document. But right now, the BER folks are unable to perform the compulsory passenger simulation tests because of the CoViD-19 restrictions. And then the operating company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Are you sure about the "have to"? They want to because they don't want the Terminal 5 at LHR situation with all the stranded bags. If I recall correctly, only the evacuation of the train station has to be performed.

Today there is a meeting of the board of Berlin airports about closing TXL in June and perhaps finally..

in German
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/flug ... 87300.html

Kilopond wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

[...]I honestly came to this thread to find the estimated delay due to Convid19. I did not expect authorization to open.

Lightsaber

The chaos isn`t over yet, so stay tuned!

The local county authority in charge has just rubber-stamped one important document. But right now, the BER folks are unable to perform the compulsory passenger simulation tests because of the CoViD-19 restrictions. And then the operating company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

The chaos will stay for years to come. Engelbert Lütke Daldrup want to close Tegel in favor for BER to open earlier , but airlines want Tegel to stay open. Like you mentioned no simulation tests can be done at the moment and he argue to close Tegel whilst losing ~ 7 million a month due Corona. How much BER would lose for the same reason ?
Up to 1.8 billion € more needed : https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/bris ... 84234.html
...... what a mess

oldJoe wrote:

The chaos will stay for years to come. Engelbert Lütke Daldrup want to close Tegel in favor for BER to open earlier, but airlines want Tegel to stay open

Whats in there for airlines? It still the same airport just in different place

miegapele wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

The chaos will stay for years to come. Engelbert Lütke Daldrup want to close Tegel in favor for BER to open earlier, but airlines want Tegel to stay open

Whats in there for airlines? It still the same airport just in different place

Most likely they don`t want spend money right now for moving all the gear to another airport. Every € they spend right now without any gain is to much.

miegapele wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

The chaos will stay for years to come. Engelbert Lütke Daldrup want to close Tegel in favor for BER to open earlier, but airlines want Tegel to stay open

Whats in there for airlines? It still the same airport just in different place

It's all about Location location location. I wouldn't be surprised if airlines are quite hesitant to move everything from TXL to BER. What if something goes wrong weeks after operations begin? Then the airlines don't have anything for their operation in Berlin anymore.

Someone replied earlier to my question what the city is going to do with TXL after BER opens, and he said that the city of Berlin is aiming to close TXL not earlier than March 2021. Of course, corona has changed everything, but still... everybody remembers the chaos after LHR's Terminal 5 opened.

Airlines probably want to have prove/evidence that BER functions they way it should function before making the switch.

Kilopond wrote:

The local county authority in charge has just rubber-stamped one important document. But right now, the BER folks are unable to perform the compulsory passenger simulation tests because of the CoViD-19 restrictions. And then the operating company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Something tells me that FBB will get a bailout by the local and perhaps even the federal government, should they indeed declare bankruptcy. And you can guess who will have to pick up the tab for it.

Just seen on TV. Today was day one of the compulsory passenger simulation tests. In total, they will have 28 days of tests and 9000 test passengers regarding COVID-19 in total. Original planned were less days and more test passengers (in total 20.000), regarding COVID-19, total number is reduced and number of days increased.

Result of day one: With exception of one fire alarm without fire, everything was boring normal without any problems. As all these tests have already performed more than once, first time already in 2012, there is no reason to believe, anything will go wrong. There were never any serious problems during prior compulsory passenger simulation tests, so why expect anything now?

T4thH wrote:

With exception of one fire alarm without fire

Ehm.. wasn't the whole fire alarm system one of THE biggest reasons this Terminal's opening was delayed and delayed and delayed?

Let's wait until they actually finally open it. Call me a skeptic but they have a history of cluster-f***s. (my own modification)
The good thing for them is they start in a low demand situation so there is less pressure to get things finally going. This time it looks like it might happen. But who knows?

PANAMsterdam wrote:

T4thH wrote:

With exception of one fire alarm without fire

Ehm.. wasn't the whole fire alarm system one of THE biggest reasons this Terminal's opening was delayed and delayed and delayed?

Yes, but in this case, it was just a broken sensor, giving a wrong signal. So it was additional the test, that the fire protection system and automated evacuation system was working. And yes, it was working... So next test item completed

The Berlin airport authority announced to change their technical director. No. 6 since 2012.

Noshow wrote:

The Berlin airport authority announced to change their technical director. No. 6 since 2012.

That is outright embarrassing. Six technical directors in eight years? Why are the governments of Berlin and Brandenburg, as well as the federal government, not doing something in terms of accountability? Local and federal tax payers are demanding accountability, but Berlin, Brandenburg, and the federal government keep on with the "laissez-faire" (or as we say in German, a "Weiter, so!"), and billions of Euros in taxes get wasted on something that is a prestige project (an undersized, poorly designed airport, just so Berlin has a new toy to play with because it's our federal capital), nothing more and nothing else. Even the proposed airport in Kaltenkirchen, to replace the landlocked HAM, made more sense than BER under these circumstances.

Honestly, I wish in hindsight we would've kept the capital in Bonn.

I booked a BA flight from LHR to TXL last April for travel during the 2nd half of November 2021, and BA sent me an email informing me that my flight to TXL is now canceled and that I am rebooked on another flight to BER. The new flight has the exact same flight number and timing of the canceled flight, indicating that airlines are preparing themselves for the move to the new airport.

It looks like after the first week of November the entire Tegel traffic will be moved to BER if they finally get BER opened. Tegel will then be empty and be kept on standby for AFAIK six more months and then closed. Just a military helicopter VIP transport unit on the northern side will stay for some more years at Tegel Nord air base until 2029.

So will the GAF and visiting governmental traffic still use Tegel Nord as well ?

No only helicopters will use it. A small Luftwaffe unit with just three Cougars. They might even limit flight movements to the north military apron leaving the Tegel runways open to remodeling.
At BER, actually at Schönfeld on the northern side, a new VIP building will take over all VIP aircraft. Possibly in the future more VIPs will be shuttled from BER to downtown by helicopter as traffic jams become harder with the new site more far away.

T4thH wrote:

PANAMsterdam wrote:

T4thH wrote:

With exception of one fire alarm without fire

Ehm.. wasn't the whole fire alarm system one of THE biggest reasons this Terminal's opening was delayed and delayed and delayed?

Yes, but in this case, it was just a broken sensor, giving a wrong signal. So it was additional the test, that the fire protection system and automated evacuation system was working. And yes, it was working... So next test item completed

Regarding the fire alarm; someone has had the idea to smoke secretly in a storage room for room cleaning equipment.

AFAIK they had two fire alarms during the last test day.

LTU932 wrote:

Even the proposed airport in Kaltenkirchen, to replace the landlocked HAM, made more sense than BER under these circumstances.

Honestly, I wish in hindsight we would've kept the capital in Bonn.

I always thought that a huge, joint Airport for Berlin and Hamburg in the middle would make a lot of sense. Located in the area of Perleberg some 130km from Downtown Hamburg and 120km from Downtown Berlin. This area in Brandenburg belongs to the least populated areas in Germany, looots of Space. With a High Speed Rail Link you could reach either Hamburg and Berlin in 45 minutes, with a Maglev Train this would even reduce to a maximum of 30 minutes. This way Berlin and Hamburg could have unified their "mid-range" demand and attract way more Airlines and routes.

Hamburg Fuhlsbüttel and Berlin Tegel could have kept open for some major domestic flights and maybe a few flights to the most important business destinations in Europe. (Just like Berlin Tempelhof, London City or Toronto Billy Bishop.)

And yes, I think as well that Bonn could just have kept the Capital. Would have saved LOADS and LOADS of money.

I refer you to the history of Montreal Dorval/Mirabel airports...

deltatrav wrote:

Anyone have any news or thoughts on long haul routes from BER once open. UA to EWR, TK to IST (not longhaul) - maybe an EK 5th freedom? Or DL yearround to JFK?

Just thoughts of course. I am sure that a lot of the longhaul routes will return after that Covid-Chaos, however in my opinion Berlin was overserved from North America in 2019.

United will return I am sure about that, most likely yearround too as they established the flight for 15 years and clearly "own" that market.

The chance of Delta returning to Berlin in 2021 is 70% IMO, but only seasonal as it was. There sure is quite some demand to Berlin, but this demand mainly concentrates to the summer months where tourist travel is high. In the winter months the demand only justifies one flight, as we have also seen in the recent years.

American already canceled Berlin, they lost money on that flight and I think that their flight was part of the overserving. There would have been better choices than Berlin for them.

If Air Canada rouge returns depends on the 767, I read AC retired all 767s but I am not sure if this also applies to Rouge. If yes: no more Rouge to Berlin and I dont think Air Canada Mainline would launch a flight.

I am not sure about Scoot and Hainan, I think Hainan is likely to return, Scoot less likely.

Emirates 5th freedom? They cant even serve Berlin as they lack the rights to do so. The only would would be dropping FRA, MUC, DUS or HAM but I highly doubt they would do that. Only chance is that they could get additional rights for further Germany flying. Its no secret that they want to serve Berlin als Stuttgart since at least 2006, but nothing has happened in all those years. Just promises ... Why should they grant them additional rights?

AA had actually planned to increase frequencies to TXL [pre COVID-19] for S20 ... if they lost money like you insist, why increasing it from previously 4/7 in S19

cityshuttle wrote:

AA actually planned to increase frequencies to TXL [pre COVID-19] for S20

Maybe an attempt to make the flight more successful, they could have thought 4/7 is not attractive enough, also they had to fly their 767s somewhere. I read in different places, also here on a.net, that the flight was a money looser. All the flights that wont return were money loosers. From the beginning I was sure that this was one of those routes that would go together with the 767.

AA had dropped several other EU destinations for S20 but increased TXL, not a sign that they lost too much money on it. Also they received sponsorship from the airport authorities as PHL was a new destination on the TXL map. But I agree, not having the right-sized aircraft seems to be a plausible reason for cancelling this route besides the COVID-19 effects in international traveling.

cityshuttle wrote:

AA had dropped several other EU destinations for S20 but increased TXL, not a sign that they lost too much money on it. Also they received sponsorship from the airport authorities as PHL was a new destination on the TXL map. But I agree, not having the right-sized aircraft seems to be a plausible reason for cancelling this route besides the COVID-19 effects in international traveling.

Thats true, also the route was just started which means it had no time to establish. Also it clearly targeted tourists, and tourist travel could get a sizeable dent over the next few years. And as I said this route IMO only works with the 767, which has gone now unfortunately.

American continues to have bad luck in other German markets than FRA and MUC. DUS, HAM, TXL, STR, none of them existed more than 1-2 years, I think DUS set a record with like 3(?) years. Now PHL-TXL lets this Tradition live on. All in all they served Berlin only like 4 months, being a High Summer seasonal flight.
So many routes came and went ... ORD-BRU-DUS, JFK-BRU-HAM, ORD-DUS-TXL, ORD-TXL-MUC, JFK-ZRH-STR, ORD-DUS, PHL-TXL ...
Maybe American can make DUS, HAM and BER work with the XLR!

DLHAM wrote:

LTU932 wrote:

Even the proposed airport in Kaltenkirchen, to replace the landlocked HAM, made more sense than BER under these circumstances.

Honestly, I wish in hindsight we would've kept the capital in Bonn.

I always thought that a huge, joint Airport for Berlin and Hamburg in the middle would make a lot of sense. Located in the area of Perleberg some 130km from Downtown Hamburg and 120km from Downtown Berlin. This area in Brandenburg belongs to the least populated areas in Germany, looots of Space. With a High Speed Rail Link you could reach either Hamburg and Berlin in 45 minutes, with a Maglev Train this would even reduce to a maximum of 30 minutes. This way Berlin and Hamburg could have unified their "mid-range" demand and attract way more Airlines and routes.

Hamburg Fuhlsbüttel and Berlin Tegel could have kept open for some major domestic flights and maybe a few flights to the most important business destinations in Europe. (Just like Berlin Tempelhof, London City or Toronto Billy Bishop.)

And yes, I think as well that Bonn could just have kept the Capital. Would have saved LOADS and LOADS of money.

The plans for the airport in Kaltenkirchen existed long before 1990 IIRC. Even with the airport in Kaltenkirchen, aka new HAM, you could have built lots of connections to it, like a high speed rail connection from Neumünster to connect the north, with the possibility of extending it all the way, using the freight rail line that existed up to the U1 station Ochsenzoll and connected with Ohlsdorf, including even an S-Bahn to replace the ANB (aka AKN line A2), or with the current line U1 going to Norderstedt Mitte, even extending it to at least Ulzburg-Süd, so it connects with the currently planned extension of the S21 that goes from Eidelstedt to Kaltenkirchen and replaces the original AKN (aka AKN line A1).

Another public transportation plan I've just came up for new HAM, using current infrastructure as well: Extend the U1 (which is already a quasi-S-Bahn with its eastern branches to Ohlstedt and Großhansdorf but regulated legally as a metro line) to Ulzburg Süd (replacing the ANB), and extend the S21 from Eidelstedt to Kaltenkirchen, replacing the AKN. Have them connect in Ulzburg-Süd and thus have a connection to the old airport. From Kaltenkirchen, you could extend the S-Bahn to Neumünster but that would require an expansion of the HVV fare zone to Neumünster. From Neumünster, you'd have highspeed rail going all the way to Kiel, connecting the north with the new airport.

As for the plan of the airport that you mention, I don't think it would be wise to build an airport in the middle of nowhere. Kaltenkirchen at least has the advantage of being in the pretty much biggest metro areas in Northern Germany, right smack between Hamburg and the next biggest city in the area, which is Neumünster.

Noshow wrote:

No only helicopters will use it. A small Luftwaffe unit with just three Cougars. They might even limit flight movements to the north military apron leaving the Tegel runways open to remodeling.
At BER, actually at Schönfeld on the northern side, a new VIP building will take over all VIP aircraft. Possibly in the future more VIPs will be shuttled from BER to downtown by helicopter as traffic jams become harder with the new site more far away.

Thanks.
Seems odd to maintain that helicopter unit at Tegel Nord if there are no VIP jets to transfer anyone from & to. Or are there some kind of government buildings behind the Tegel Nord facility ?

Noshow wrote:

AFAIK they had two fire alarms during the last test day.

I have a BAD feeling about this whole opening.

I really can't wait to see if i was right or wrong one year from now!

(Hello me, on July 13th 2021! )

TC957 wrote:

Noshow wrote:

No only helicopters will use it. A small Luftwaffe unit with just three Cougars. They might even limit flight movements to the north military apron leaving the Tegel runways open to remodeling.
At BER, actually at Schönfeld on the northern side, a new VIP building will take over all VIP aircraft. Possibly in the future more VIPs will be shuttled from BER to downtown by helicopter as traffic jams become harder with the new site more far away.

Thanks.
Seems odd to maintain that helicopter unit at Tegel Nord if there are no VIP jets to transfer anyone from & to. Or are there some kind of government buildings behind the Tegel Nord facility ?

The Luftwaffe said that their facilities at BER lack "technical and logistical support" for the helo fleet. They have a maintenance hangar at TXL; I assume that there's some specialized equipment that couldn't just get moved to BER.

Luftwaffe had big plans for hangars at BER. However they wanted to build them on the SXF site that will now not been torn down but remains in service as some additional BER terminal 5. (IIRC)
Until recently BER had been considered undersized for Berlin's booming air traffic this is why they changed their plans.
Now without the new hangar and proper maintenance that very Luftwaffe VIP helicopter unit stays for some more years at Tegel Nord to move a little later.

Just as a side note: The new BER is farther away for our politicians than TXL. So they keep the Helicopters in TXL for our proud leaders, because these better thinking persons cannot afford the travel to BER in matter of time.
And these are the people that tell you to reduce and change your travels and best do everything by bicycle or walking. I would love to see Angie on a bike, going from Reichstag to BER. And best, together with obese Sigmar Gabriel on a tandem bike...