Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
LHLX
Topic Author
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:25 am

UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:56 am

hey,

according to Flightradar24 flight UX1303 overflew Algeria and Tunisis en route MAD-TLV.

this is new to me as flights with Israel as a destination do not overfly Arab countries except Egypt and Jordan.

Anyone have a clue what has changed?
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am

I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.
 
csavel
Posts: 1407
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:38 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:41 am

jupiter2 wrote:
I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.


Very much Arab too as the native language is Arabic (with many knowing French as colonial legacy and many also knowing Berber languages, especially Algeria) but North Africa, from Morocco to Egypt is considered Arab. Funny I just flew Royal Air Maroc from Dakar to NY and announcements in Arabic (And English).

as for the overfly over Algeria and Tunisia, I would assume that is a glitch of some sort. Accuracy isn't 100%.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
tlvflyguy
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:39 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:44 am

I think Algeria and Tunisia are somewhere in the middle.
RJ overflies Israel on AMM-ALG and AMM-TUN, but does not on the return flights.
Also, AH does not overfly Israel on AMM-ALG in both directions.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:52 pm

csavel wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.


Very much Arab too as the native language is Arabic (with many knowing French as colonial legacy and many also knowing Berber languages, especially Algeria) but North Africa, from Morocco to Egypt is considered Arab. Funny I just flew Royal Air Maroc from Dakar to NY and announcements in Arabic (And English).

as for the overfly over Algeria and Tunisia, I would assume that is a glitch of some sort. Accuracy isn't 100%.


Well going by that logic, every country in South America would be Spanish or Portuguese, since they all speak one of those two languages. Where I live in south west Sydney must be Arab too, judging by the amount of people that speak Arabic.

Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.
 
kameleonten
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:58 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:55 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.


Both of the mentioned countries, as well as i.a. Morocco are members of the League of Arab States, better known as the Arab League. That is rather conclusive IMO.

You are mixing up "Arab" with Middle East.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8655
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.

Arab is not necessarily a geographic term. Otherwise, Egypt would also be considered African instead of Arab. Rather it's a cultural term which allows it to transcend geographic borders.

When in doubt, look for supranational organizations. The Arab League extends into Africa by including Mauritania, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Djibouti, and the Comoros: all African, and all very much Arab (or with Arab ancestry).

The question now becomes whether those northern African countries partake in the boycott of Israel by denying use of airspace for flights to/from Israel and whether they have the means to enforce it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
khowaga
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:25 pm

Professor of Middle East stuff here: “Arab” is an ethno-linguistic term, not geographic. The Arab League, for example, includes Somalia and the Comoros as members. So, yes, the countries of North Africa, all the way across to Morocco, are “Arab.” Given the political situation, Morocco is one of the few places we can safely send students for immersive Arabic language instruction, for example.

Most definitions of the Middle East (which itself is a hugely problematic term and has no universally agreed upon boundaries) exclude countries west of Egypt.

More to the point, however, of the countries mentioned in this thread only Algeria does not accept Israeli passports nor will they allow individuals with Israeli stamps to enter (not that israel uses stamps anymore), so its likely they would not allow overflight. Tunisia is not as restrictive, however — they do admit individuals who have Israeli stamps, and do, in theory, issue visas to Israelis under certain circumstances, so it’s likely their overnight rules are not as strict.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:19 pm

kameleonten wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.


Both of the mentioned countries, as well as i.a. Morocco are members of the League of Arab States, better known as the Arab League. That is rather conclusive IMO.

You are mixing up "Arab" with Middle East.


Ok, so you and others are referencing "Arab" is a political/ideological term, instead of a geographical one. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick to the geographical one, where Egypt is very much part of Africa and the Middle East is a region of the Asian continent, just as the Indian sub continent is as well. So what does Iran and Israel come under then ?

At least F.I.F.A agrees with me, except for Israel, getting stuck in European qualifiers because of political/ideological stupidity (on both sides for that one). :banghead:
 
User avatar
AASAP777
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:46 pm

UX is a Spanish carrier. I don't know if the bans are for planes going to Israel or only Israeli registered aircraft.

However, IB3316 completely skept the Arab Northern Africa and overflew Southern Europe before descending toward Israel.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/IBE3316

This same flight (AEA1303) almost flew just as Iberia did today on Sunday when it did.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AEA1 ... /LEMD/LLBG
Bendiga Dios la pródiga tierra en que nací....God bless the prodigal land where I was born.
H O N D U R A S! Five star country...Un país de cinco estrellas.
 
khowaga
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:03 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.


Both of the mentioned countries, as well as i.a. Morocco are members of the League of Arab States, better known as the Arab League. That is rather conclusive IMO.

You are mixing up "Arab" with Middle East.


Ok, so you and others are referencing "Arab" is a political/ideological term, instead of a geographical one. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick to the geographical one, where Egypt is very much part of Africa and the Middle East is a region of the Asian continent, just as the Indian sub continent is as well. So what does Iran and Israel come under then ?

At least F.I.F.A agrees with me, except for Israel, getting stuck in European qualifiers because of political/ideological stupidity (on both sides for that one). :banghead:


As I said above, “Middle East” is a problematic term because there are many varying definitions of which countries are included — but I have yet to see a definition of “Middle East” that does NOT include Egypt (technically in Africa), Iran, or Israel. Turkey is usually also included (although most times Cyprus isn’t, go fig.)

Most textbooks have moved to the more geographically neutral “Southwest Asia and North Africa,” although that’s equally problematic (for example: find me an Israeli, Jordanian, or Lebanese person who considers themselves “Asian”).
 
khowaga
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:14 pm

Although, since you referenced FIFA, Israel gets lumped in with Europe a lot (UN also) because of the geopolitical situation, and when Egypt is and isn’t in Africa is so inconsistent that it pretty much encourages day drinking. :champagne:
 
kameleonten
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:58 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:17 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
Ok, so you and others are referencing "Arab" is a political/ideological term, instead of a geographical one. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick to the geographical one, where Egypt is very much part of Africa and the Middle East is a region of the Asian continent, just as the Indian sub continent is as well. So what does Iran and Israel come under then ?


Nobody is referencing "Arab" as a political/ideological term, it is a cultural, ethnic and language-based term. This was exactly my point - Morocco is populated mainly by arabs, as is Iraq. The geographical, political and ideological implications follow as a result of the common culture and language. Iran and Israel are not arab countries but both belong to the Middle East. The Middle East is a geographical region, stretching over western Asia and also including Egypt (obviously located in Africa).

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East
 
santi319
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:25 pm

Just give up people! The person doesn't want to learn anything so I don't know why keep engaging to be honest.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13982
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:36 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.

jupiter2 wrote:
Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.

Um, you might want to google the term "Heart of the Arab World"..... you'll find that Cairo is very much in Africa, just like these countries.

"Arab" does not equate to middle east.
There are middle eastern regions that are not Arabic, and there are Arabic regions that are nowhere near the middle east.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
saleya22r
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm

They are Arab Maghreb countries in northern Africa;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:00 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
Both of the mentioned countries, as well as i.a. Morocco are members of the League of Arab States, better known as the Arab League. That is rather conclusive IMO. You are mixing up "Arab" with Middle East.

Ok, so you and others are referencing "Arab" is a political/ideological term, instead of a geographical one. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick to the geographical one, where Egypt is very much part of Africa and the Middle East is a region of the Asian continent, just as the Indian sub continent is as well. So what does Iran and Israel come under then ?
At least F.I.F.A agrees with me, except for Israel, getting stuck in European qualifiers because of political/ideological stupidity (on both sides for that one). :banghead:

Why stop at FIFA?
The Eurovision Song Contest has featured Israel, Cyprus, Armenia, Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan. Even Morocco was included once.
And finally, in 2015 they absolutely lost the plot and invited Australia. Now that is really letting standards slip.

All joking aside, the OP asked this question that focussed on Arab / Israeli friction.
LHLX wrote:
....as flights with Israel as a destination do not overfly Arab countries except Egypt and Jordan.

By your own geographic constraints, Egypt is in Africa, and Jordan is in a region of the Asian continent.
Clearly the OP wasn't interested in geographic boundaries to the extent you were.

Others here have explained that "Middle-East" is a complicated term, so whilst we are on the subject, the RAF historically featured two overseas Commands you won't hear too much of these days.
1) RAF Near East Air Force, HQ RAF Episcopi, Cyprus
These days, this would be considered "Middle East"

2) RAF Far East Air Force, HQ RAF Changi, Singapore
However.... Since the 1960s, East Asia has become the most common term for this region in international mass media outlets. "Far East" is often deprecated as archaic and eurocentric, along with the terms "Near East" and "Middle East"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East

FWIW Tunisia is one of the more euro-centric countries in that North African region (IMO), even producing a passably decent red wine with it's own Appellation Contrôlée (AOC) system. I should add that most of this wine is either exported, or served in Hotels to (non-Arab) tourists.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
dergay
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:03 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
csavel wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
I wouldn't be calling Algeria and Tunisia "Arab countries". Maybe majority Muslim, but very much African.


Very much Arab too as the native language is Arabic (with many knowing French as colonial legacy and many also knowing Berber languages, especially Algeria) but North Africa, from Morocco to Egypt is considered Arab. Funny I just flew Royal Air Maroc from Dakar to NY and announcements in Arabic (And English).

as for the overfly over Algeria and Tunisia, I would assume that is a glitch of some sort. Accuracy isn't 100%.


Well going by that logic, every country in South America would be Spanish or Portuguese, since they all speak one of those two languages. Where I live in south west Sydney must be Arab too, judging by the amount of people that speak Arabic.

Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.


And all countries in North America are English or French (except Mexico...........)! :stirthepot:
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
airbazar
Posts: 10380
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:13 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
Well going by that logic, every country in South America would be Spanish or Portuguese, since they all speak one of those two languages. Where I live in south west Sydney must be Arab too, judging by the amount of people that speak Arabic.

Just because the language is common, doesn't make it geographically correct.

That is why it is called Latin America.
"Arab" or "arabic" is not a geographic denomination. It's a cultural denomination. Arabia is not a continent.
An Arab country is a country where the official language is Arabic. I'm not sure why we're even arguing this. Are you in 5th grade?
 
drgmobile
Posts: 990
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:43 pm

Whether or not Algeria and Tunisia are Arab countries is not really a matter of one's opinion. There are basic established facts about how these words are used, who Arabs are and where they live. Try looking things up.
 
User avatar
TS-IOR
Posts: 3696
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:44 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:22 am

This has been flamebating recently on a Tunisian aviation group on Facebook and it seems like a new route granted for Air Europe by respective countries CAA. ATC operators agreed as well. Until not so long, Air Europa and Iberia fly a random direct route circumverting Tunis FIR on their flights to and from TLV, but it seems like overflying Algeria and Tunisia is now not an issue and regular ATS routes are used. EL AL, Arkia and any 4X- registered aircraft is still denied use.
 
User avatar
TS-IOR
Posts: 3696
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:44 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:31 am

Algeria and Tunisia are Arab countries, they are members of the good-for-nothing Arab League, officially use Arab language, but the spoken dialect is way different. Historically we are Berbers or Amazighs and became progressively 'Arabs' after the Muslims settled Kairouan like 1400 years ago.
 
User avatar
OneSexyL1011
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:06 am

UA fly's over Turkey sometimes to and from TLV also, no problems there.
 
dozerman
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:52 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:48 am

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
UA fly's over Turkey sometimes to and from TLV also, no problems there.


That is different. Turkey and Israel recognise each other. However, Algeria and Tunisia don't have any diplomatic with relations Israel.

Many carriers overfly Turkey en route to/from Israel. Even El Al overflies Turkey all the time. I believe they even used to fly to Turkey. And TK is one of the biggest foreign airlines at TLV.
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:18 am

By the way, Turkey is not an arab country LOL
Don’t confuse my personality with my attitude. My personality is who I am. My attitude depends on who you are.
 
khowaga
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:28 pm

TS-IOR wrote:
This has been flamebating recently on a Tunisian aviation group on Facebook and it seems like a new route granted for Air Europe by respective countries CAA. ATC operators agreed as well. Until not so long, Air Europa and Iberia fly a random direct route circumverting Tunis FIR on their flights to and from TLV, but it seems like overflying Algeria and Tunisia is now not an issue and regular ATS routes are used. EL AL, Arkia and any 4X- registered aircraft is still denied use.


So, the TL;DR on the OPs question is: Algeria and Tunisia allow overflight of Israel-bound aircraft on the condition that the operating carrier and/or aircraft registration are not Israeli.
 
User avatar
euroflyer
Posts: 640
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:20 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:29 pm

khowaga wrote:
TS-IOR wrote:
This has been flamebating recently on a Tunisian aviation group on Facebook and it seems like a new route granted for Air Europe by respective countries CAA. ATC operators agreed as well. Until not so long, Air Europa and Iberia fly a random direct route circumverting Tunis FIR on their flights to and from TLV, but it seems like overflying Algeria and Tunisia is now not an issue and regular ATS routes are used. EL AL, Arkia and any 4X- registered aircraft is still denied use.


So, the TL;DR on the OPs question is: Algeria and Tunisia allow overflight of Israel-bound aircraft on the condition that the operating carrier and/or aircraft registration are not Israeli.


I agree with that, it's not a question of origin/destination but registration of aircraft. You will not see a 4X- overflying these countries (especially today lol). All the above discussion about Arab/not arab is irrelevant.
Also, the statement about Turkey is even more irrelevant
Born to fly !
 
User avatar
AASAP777
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:37 pm

So, in other words, both Iberia and Air Europa have freedom of overflying Algerian/Tunisian/Libyan/Egyptian airspace when they go to/from Tel Aviv?
Bendiga Dios la pródiga tierra en que nací....God bless the prodigal land where I was born.
H O N D U R A S! Five star country...Un país de cinco estrellas.
 
Kadish
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:36 am

Re: UX1303 MAD-TLV flies over Arab countries??

Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:01 pm

AASAP777 wrote:
So, in other words, both Iberia and Air Europa have freedom of overflying Algerian/Tunisian/Libyan/Egyptian airspace when they go to/from Tel Aviv?


I have flown many times with Ib to Israel and in a few flights we crossed obre Northern Africa

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos