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intotheair
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APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:40 pm

Just saw this on Reuters. Does it have any heft to it? I certainly hope not, as I have booked some connecting AA flights around Christmas.

https://twitter.com/ReutersBiz/status/9 ... 7038650369
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OKCDCA
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:28 pm

So reading the article, I'm confused if the system just hasn't scheduled pilots to flights or if the system awarded vacation to everyone who put in for time off around the holidays?
 
alasizon
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:49 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
So reading the article, I'm confused if the system just hasn't scheduled pilots to flights or if the system awarded vacation to everyone who put in for time off around the holidays?


It appears both, one piece is it did not assign pilots to the flights and then a second piece of it appears to be that when pilots requested PTO, it was approved and the system did not detect that there were uncovered trips.

I can't imagine that this won't be resolved by the time that these flights roll around. And from experience, its not a fun day when there is nobody assigned to flights (there was an FA outage for one of the regional carriers last year where one day had no FAs scheduled for flights, everyone was set to be on reserve).
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32andBelow
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:01 pm

alasizon wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
So reading the article, I'm confused if the system just hasn't scheduled pilots to flights or if the system awarded vacation to everyone who put in for time off around the holidays?


It appears both, one piece is it did not assign pilots to the flights and then a second piece of it appears to be that when pilots requested PTO, it was approved and the system did not detect that there were uncovered trips.

I can't imagine that this won't be resolved by the time that these flights roll around. And from experience, its not a fun day when there is nobody assigned to flights (there was an FA outage for one of the regional carriers last year where one day had no FAs scheduled for flights, everyone was set to be on reserve).

Everyone on RES? That is like a crew schedulers dream.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Some software needs "enhancement", as we said back in my IT days in the early 90's.
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flyfresno
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:10 pm

As advanced as aircraft and our society is in general, I'm amazed just how old and archaic some of the software that airlines use is. Some pilots are going to really cash in from this one...
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:20 pm

Wow, this will certainly create a mig ole bess this holiday season.
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winginit
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Sounds like AA is offering 1.5X pay to pilots to ensure the flights are filled. That will resolve the issue but my oh my it will certainly come at a cost.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:28 pm

alasizon wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
So reading the article, I'm confused if the system just hasn't scheduled pilots to flights or if the system awarded vacation to everyone who put in for time off around the holidays?


It appears both, one piece is it did not assign pilots to the flights and then a second piece of it appears to be that when pilots requested PTO, it was approved and the system did not detect that there were uncovered trips.

I can't imagine that this won't be resolved by the time that these flights roll around. And from experience, its not a fun day when there is nobody assigned to flights (there was an FA outage for one of the regional carriers last year where one day had no FAs scheduled for flights, everyone was set to be on reserve).

I'd imagine they'd fix it as well... It's a no win for the pilots who are going to have their vacation revoked and a no win for the airline in that they are going to have a lot of upset pilots who thought they would be off during the holidays. I can imagine there will be quite a few "mechanical" issues which arise.

Also, does the union have any responsibility when it comes to vacation scheduling? In my time in the railroad industry, at least at the railroad I worked at, the local chairman was responsible for scheduling vacations for the crew district they represented. The employees would request weeks based off seniority and the LC would schedule as best they could. Even though I was in management, I hated vacation time because even though the union did the scheduling, it was somehow still my fault a guy didn't Christmas off even though he was towards the bottom of the seniority list.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:45 pm

So software suddenly stops working? Seems there's more to this than just a software error.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:49 pm

Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.
 
Sooner787
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:53 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.


AA's pilot union is raising a big fuss because they were out of the loop on this , so I think the 1.5X pay offer
is an olive branch to the APA to calm them down.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:56 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.


AA's pilot union is raising a big fuss because they were out of the loop on this , so I think the 1.5X pay offer
is an olive branch to the APA to calm them down.

Fair enough, just pointing out I don't think anyone would be cheated out of days off with a re-run of the bid.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:58 pm

32andBelow wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:

AA's pilot union is raising a big fuss because they were out of the loop on this , so I think the 1.5X pay offer
is an olive branch to the APA to calm them down.

Fair enough, just pointing out I don't think anyone would be cheated out of days off with a re-run of the bid.

What about guys who got PTO approved and bought hotels/travel?

Yea the timing of when they recognized the error is fairly important of course.
 
727200
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:59 pm

I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more
 
32andBelow
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:59 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.


AA's pilot union is raising a big fuss because they were out of the loop on this , so I think the 1.5X pay offer
is an olive branch to the APA to calm them down.

Fair enough, just pointing out I don't think anyone would be cheated out of days off with a re-run of the bid.

What about guys who got PTO approved and bought hotels/travel?
 
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enilria
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:00 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.
Sooner787 wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Why do they even have to offer 1.5x pay? Can't they just say the software made a mistake and gave EVERYONE off, so we're redoing it with the same bid as before? That's really not unfair.


AA's pilot union is raising a big fuss because they were out of the loop on this , so I think the 1.5X pay offer
is an olive branch to the APA to calm them down.
intotheair wrote:
Just saw this on Reuters. Does it have any heft to it? I certainly hope not, as I have booked some connecting AA flights around Christmas.

https://twitter.com/ReutersBiz/status/9 ... 7038650369

This sounds to me like normal during a peak time. It's not unusual to have a significant number of flights expected to be covered with reserves and call-backs, particularly in peaks. Further, those call-backs do have a pay bonus probably something like 1.5x. So, I'm confused about this. It sounds like business as usual, not a glitch. Software, smoftware. It would have been noticed if scheduled crew hours were way down from last year during the bid if this was different than year ago practice. This would never be discovered inside the month which it basically is now. This bid came out several weeks ago.

This smells a bit of the union stirring up trouble in advance of a union policy of not accepting overtime by acting like this is not normal practice and a management mistake.
 
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:01 pm

727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?
 
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:04 pm

stlgph wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


....really?

Really
 
stlgph
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:05 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


....really?
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CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:07 pm

What happened is that the trip trading system, which also allows trips to be dropped, didn't have the usual protections in place to prevent trips being dropped beyond a certain predetermined staffing level, particularly on holidays such as Christmas. This resulted in the inordinate amount of uncovered flights in December. I don't know if it was a software glitch, or someone in crew scheduling/planning left a box unchecked in some program.
 
catiii
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:11 pm

green$lip time. ka-ching ka-ching.
 
stlgph
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:15 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Really


Wow man, just wow.

You totally convinced me with that logic


Well you clearly don't get it.
AA should be offering to pay out 3 times as much, if not more to cover their mistake.
It's AA's responsibility to act in good faith. They failed in this situation.

If you really think employees granted time off should come back to and work and just do it out of the kindness of their hearts, I'll just be over here in the corner laughing at you, along with everyone else.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:18 pm

enilria wrote:
This sounds to me like normal during a peak time. It's not unusual to have a significant number of flights expected to be covered with reserves and call-backs, particularly in peaks. Further, those call-backs do have a pay bonus probably something like 1.5x. So, I'm confused about this. It sounds like business as usual, not a glitch. Software, smoftware. It would have been noticed if scheduled crew hours were way down from last year during the bid if this was different than year ago practice. This would never be discovered inside the month which it basically is now. This bid came out several weeks ago.

This smells a bit of the union stirring up trouble in advance of a union policy of not accepting overtime by acting like this is not normal practice and a management mistake.


Absolutely incorrect. The PBS system awarded the pilots schedules just like any other month. The glitch manifested itself when the trip-trade window opened and the pilots were able to trade/drop trips that would otherwise normally have been protected. The union's concern is that since there was no agreement in place on the selective premium pay that there may be issues with pay comp in the future should there be an error in correctly processing the pay. This has been an ongoing problem for the pilots since the merger.
 
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enilria
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:19 pm

CanesFan wrote:
What happened is that the trip trading system, which also allows trips to be dropped, didn't have the usual protections in place to prevent trips being dropped beyond a certain predetermined staffing level, particularly on holidays such as Christmas. This resulted in the inordinate amount of uncovered flights in December. I don't know if it was a software glitch, or someone in crew scheduling/planning left a box unchecked in some program.

That is much more believable. There is no way they put out a bid weeks ago and nobody noticed it was significantly different from last month or last year.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:26 pm

stlgph wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Wow man, just wow.

You totally convinced me with that logic


Well you clearly don't get it.
AA should be offering to pay out 3 times as much, if not more to cover their mistake.
It's AA's responsibility to act in good faith. They failed in this situation.

If you really think employees granted time off should come back to and work and just do it out of the kindness of their hearts, I'll just be over here in the corner laughing at you, along with everyone else.

I know when my employer makes a mistake I make sure to bleed them for all it's worth... That's how I build goodwill with them. I would hope they're just as unforgiving if I make a mistake too then
 
CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:38 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
I know when my employer makes a mistake I make sure to bleed them for all it's worth... That's how I build goodwill with them. I would hope they're just as unforgiving if I make a mistake too then


The pilots, myself included, used the trip-trading program to rework our schedules in accordance with the CBA. A certain number of trades and or drops would have been allowed, but not nearly the magnitude of what ultimately took place. A glitch of some sort occurred, and far more days off were granted than what typically would have been. However, this all happened in a contractual fashion. If the computer allows it, it is considered done. The company can't go back and have a re-do. This is no different than if I made a mistake in how I bid my monthly schedule. If I screw it up, I have to either rework it according to the system provided or suck it up and fly it.
 
alasizon
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:41 pm

CanesFan wrote:
What happened is that the trip trading system, which also allows trips to be dropped, didn't have the usual protections in place to prevent trips being dropped beyond a certain predetermined staffing level, particularly on holidays such as Christmas. This resulted in the inordinate amount of uncovered flights in December. I don't know if it was a software glitch, or someone in crew scheduling/planning left a box unchecked in some program.


If the 15k quoted figure is right though, there is no way somebody in crew planning didn't realize this before that number was reached. Lets assume for a minute though that the number is right. That would roughly equate out to 1,000 flights a day over the fifteen day span and assuming a three leg day for each crewmember, that would only be 333 effective crew pairings daily (factoring in longhaul, shuttle, shorthaul from DFW etc it probably all averages out). Between planned reserves, extra pay (since APA can't just be happy with 1.5x) and reflows; should work out decently well and probably won't cost all that much more.
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jnev3289
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:42 pm

CanesFan wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
I know when my employer makes a mistake I make sure to bleed them for all it's worth... That's how I build goodwill with them. I would hope they're just as unforgiving if I make a mistake too then


The pilots, myself included, used the trip-trading program to rework our schedules in accordance with the CBA. A certain number of trades and or drops would have been allowed, but not nearly the magnitude of what ultimately took place. A glitch of some sort occurred, and far more days off were granted than what typically would have been. However, this all happened in a contractual fashion. If the computer allows it, it is considered done. The company can't go back and have a re-do. This is no different than if I made a mistake in how I bid my monthly schedule. If I screw it up, I have to either rework it according to the system provided or suck it up and fly it.

Seemed dumb at first, but I understand now that it makes sense because that's just how it works. Thank you for your logical response, I appreciate it
 
OKCDCA
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:15 pm

CanesFan wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
I know when my employer makes a mistake I make sure to bleed them for all it's worth... That's how I build goodwill with them. I would hope they're just as unforgiving if I make a mistake too then


The pilots, myself included, used the trip-trading program to rework our schedules in accordance with the CBA. A certain number of trades and or drops would have been allowed, but not nearly the magnitude of what ultimately took place. A glitch of some sort occurred, and far more days off were granted than what typically would have been. However, this all happened in a contractual fashion. If the computer allows it, it is considered done. The company can't go back and have a re-do. This is no different than if I made a mistake in how I bid my monthly schedule. If I screw it up, I have to either rework it according to the system provided or suck it up and fly it.

The carrier will get a re-do, one way or another. I've got a feeling offering the 1.5X pay was there way of "playing nice." Now, should they have reached out to union officials first, most likely, but they aren't required to. They could have just sent a memo that said there was a screw up and we're re-doing the bids for December but instead they offered an olive branch in the form of increased pay. And I'm sure there are some pilots who are mad at the union right now for denying this opportunity because they would've jumped right on it, there will always be selfish ones in the group. In the meantime, the union and company will work something out behind closed doors and the membership will be told to file their grievances using a special wording and probably a special code on their time slip so these things get routed the right way when it comes time to get paid. But in no way will the carrier allow for this to go through, contract or not.
 
winginit
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:50 pm

stlgph wrote:
Well you clearly don't get it.
AA should be offering to pay out 3 times as much, if not more to cover their mistake.
It's AA's responsibility to act in good faith. They failed in this situation.


What's your logic behind that 3X figure besides doubling what AA initially offered? Because it sounds like you've just made it up out of thin air.
 
jumbojet
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:50 pm

APA and AA management on relatively good terms? When will the first 'possible' flight cancellations occur?
 
stlgph
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:56 pm

winginit wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Well you clearly don't get it.
AA should be offering to pay out 3 times as much, if not more to cover their mistake.
It's AA's responsibility to act in good faith. They failed in this situation.


What's your logic behind that 3X figure besides doubling what AA initially offered? Because it sounds like you've just made it up out of thin air.


1.5 is laughable.
3X would likely be seen as an acceptable show of good faith and covenance.

This story is already making the rounds for the news at 5,6, and 11, and the tomorrow morning edition, enough to scare grandma into thinking she won't be seeing little Timmy and little Jane this holiday season.

AA needs to step up the game and put it to bed now.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
winginit
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:59 pm

stlgph wrote:
1.5 is laughable.
3X would likely be seen as an acceptable show of good faith and covenance.


Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.
 
CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:10 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
The carrier will get a re-do, one way or another. I've got a feeling offering the 1.5X pay was there way of "playing nice." Now, should they have reached out to union officials first, most likely, but they aren't required to. They could have just sent a memo that said there was a screw up and we're re-doing the bids for December but instead they offered an olive branch in the form of increased pay. And I'm sure there are some pilots who are mad at the union right now for denying this opportunity because they would've jumped right on it, there will always be selfish ones in the group. In the meantime, the union and company will work something out behind closed doors and the membership will be told to file their grievances using a special wording and probably a special code on their time slip so these things get routed the right way when it comes time to get paid. But in no way will the carrier allow for this to go through, contract or not.


No, there will be no re-do. The genie is already out of the bottle. The fact that the company has offered 1.5X pay shows that other alternatives would be more costly. The union is already soured on the "IT challenges" the company is repeatedly enduring. There are a number of contractual enhancements that were agreed upon when we signed our contract years ago that have yet to be implemented due to IT challenges. If any closed door meeting will take place, it will be to discuss raising the pay to 2X or possibly more. I suspect 1.5X will work on most days, but there will still be uncovered trips.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:11 pm

winginit wrote:
stlgph wrote:
1.5 is laughable.
3X would likely be seen as an acceptable show of good faith and covenance.


Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.

Time and a Half is the standard overtime pay. Some companies go up to Double Time for Holidays themselves.

1.5X is perfectly fair as long as day-of-holiday overrides also still apply. I.e. if you were already going to get 1.5X for flying Christmas Day, then you should get 1.5x1.5=2.25X with this boost.
 
CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:14 pm

winginit wrote:

Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.



I think the fiasco AA had with the flight attendants a few years ago where they almost all wound up scheduled to work on Christmas was solved by up to 3X pay.
 
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delta747tlv
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
The carrier will get a re-do, one way or another. I've got a feeling offering the 1.5X pay was there way of "playing nice." Now, should they have reached out to union officials first, most likely, but they aren't required to. They could have just sent a memo that said there was a screw up and we're re-doing the bids for December but instead they offered an olive branch in the form of increased pay. And I'm sure there are some pilots who are mad at the union right now for denying this opportunity because they would've jumped right on it, there will always be selfish ones in the group. In the meantime, the union and company will work something out behind closed doors and the membership will be told to file their grievances using a special wording and probably a special code on their time slip so these things get routed the right way when it comes time to get paid. But in no way will the carrier allow for this to go through, contract or not.


Re-do isn't happening. They will end up paying 2x-3x to get all the trips covered. They are already unloading some flying on regionals (I know PSA for sure) which are offering 200% to pick up flying 23dec-01jan. They will be lucky if they end up getting everything covered and not have to cancel anything, but it will cost them a lot of money.
 
masgniw
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:28 pm

stlgph wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


....really?


I don't understand how you can separate AA from the computer. The software didn't fail spontaneously or in a vacuum, it was a product of AA (or possibly a contractor), coding in an error. AA made the mistake, not just "a computer".
 
jumbojet
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:33 pm

winginit wrote:
[
AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.



AA management sounds confident, maybe to confident. It remains to be seen if any flight cancellations actually occur. At what point, if at all, will they start to show up''/?
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2075
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:44 pm

They obviously failed to put limits on certain dates for dropping trips into 'Open Time'. The offer of 1.5x won't cut it...people will wait until they bump that up to 2x+ before they pick up a trip because they know that's what it will take to cover the operation. Whoever monitors their open flying on the opening of trading is probably looking for a job.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:53 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
winginit wrote:
stlgph wrote:
1.5 is laughable.
3X would likely be seen as an acceptable show of good faith and covenance.


Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.

Time and a Half is the standard overtime pay. Some companies go up to Double Time for Holidays themselves.

1.5X is perfectly fair as long as day-of-holiday overrides also still apply. I.e. if you were already going to get 1.5X for flying Christmas Day, then you should get 1.5x1.5=2.25X with this boost.


Actually 1.5x+1.5x= 3x makes total sense. 1.5x as regular overtime, 1.5x as compensation for cancelling booked and scheduled holidays that the company has approved (and workers are being nice at this point). In my job x1 is standard, x2 is OT, and x3 is OT-on-demand/favour. And if that was a mistake, well, 3x payment should work as an incentive to find the responsible or to rethink the budget when hiring a decent system to deal with (or mess with in this case) the life of hundreds/thousands of employees.
 
winginit
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:58 pm

stlgph wrote:
winginit wrote:
stlgph wrote:
1.5 is laughable.
3X would likely be seen as an acceptable show of good faith and covenance.


Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.


Become an experienced media personality turned media consultant for a commercial litigation firm and call me. I'm 6-0 in trials this year. How you doing?


Doing just fine as an aviation consultant which honestly seems quite a bit more relevant here, but all the best in the media world. Between the initial 1.5X offer and some follow ups of 2X to cover the gaps AA will likely put this to bed and we won't see a cancellation.
 
jumbojet
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:08 pm

The pilots union is urging crews not to take these assignments because they might violate the union contract. In other words, pay our constituents ALOT more than 150% and flights will get picked up. I think 500% is a reasonable amount. AA is making tons of money. Remember what the CEO said not to long ago, that we will never lose money again? 500%.
 
airtran737
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:11 pm

AA needs to pay at least 300% for the pilots to pick these trips up. Why should they be responsible for the company’s error? If AA really wants the flights to go, then they’ll pay. They’re making enough money to cover the cost of their error.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
airzona11
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:24 pm

jumbojet wrote:
winginit wrote:
[
AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.



AA management sounds confident, maybe to confident. It remains to be seen if any flight cancellations actually occur. At what point, if at all, will they start to show up''/?


They need to sound confident. If there is anything but certainty, it will create more uncertainty.

I think this issue just goes to show once again where the airlines need to be heavily investing in technology and systems. This is fundamental to their business, this error is causing a big disruption. No airline is immune, it has plagued all of them. With the scale they operate now, the time, financial and media impacts are all take not easily brushed under the rug.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:24 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
winginit wrote:

Can you appropriately quantify or provide context to that? Are there comparable incidents historically that were settled in a similar fashion that could be used as a benchmark or are you just pulling that number out of thin air and deeming it acceptable?

AA have said numerous times now publicly that they intend to appropriately have cover with 1.5X, so maybe it was spot on after all.

Time and a Half is the standard overtime pay. Some companies go up to Double Time for Holidays themselves.

1.5X is perfectly fair as long as day-of-holiday overrides also still apply. I.e. if you were already going to get 1.5X for flying Christmas Day, then you should get 1.5x1.5=2.25X with this boost.


Actually 1.5x+1.5x= 3x makes total sense. 1.5x as regular overtime, 1.5x as compensation for cancelling booked and scheduled holidays that the company has approved (and workers are being nice at this point). In my job x1 is standard, x2 is OT, and x3 is OT-on-demand/favour. And if that was a mistake, well, 3x payment should work as an incentive to find the responsible or to rethink the budget when hiring a decent system to deal with (or mess with in this case) the life of hundreds/thousands of employees.


That's not how math works. Just because your company has the x3 overtime-on-demand policy does not make 1.5x+1.5x=3x. That 'x' stands for something. As an example, lets say the normal rate is $100/hr, 1.5x$100= $150. Then $150x1.5 = $225.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:18 am

TWA902fly wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Time and a Half is the standard overtime pay. Some companies go up to Double Time for Holidays themselves.

1.5X is perfectly fair as long as day-of-holiday overrides also still apply. I.e. if you were already going to get 1.5X for flying Christmas Day, then you should get 1.5x1.5=2.25X with this boost.


Actually 1.5x+1.5x= 3x makes total sense. 1.5x as regular overtime, 1.5x as compensation for cancelling booked and scheduled holidays that the company has approved (and workers are being nice at this point). In my job x1 is standard, x2 is OT, and x3 is OT-on-demand/favour. And if that was a mistake, well, 3x payment should work as an incentive to find the responsible or to rethink the budget when hiring a decent system to deal with (or mess with in this case) the life of hundreds/thousands of employees.


That's not how math works. Just because your company has the x3 overtime-on-demand policy does not make 1.5x+1.5x=3x. That 'x' stands for something. As an example, lets say the normal rate is $100/hr, 1.5x$100= $150. Then $150x1.5 = $225.

'902

That is exactly how math works.
1.5x+1.5x = 3x

1.5 (1.5x) = 2.25x

You are using a completely different equation than him.
Phrogs Phorever
 
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lightsaber
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:18 am

CanesFan wrote:
enilria wrote:
This sounds to me like normal during a peak time. It's not unusual to have a significant number of flights expected to be covered with reserves and call-backs, particularly in peaks. Further, those call-backs do have a pay bonus probably something like 1.5x. So, I'm confused about this. It sounds like business as usual, not a glitch. Software, smoftware. It would have been noticed if scheduled crew hours were way down from last year during the bid if this was different than year ago practice. This would never be discovered inside the month which it basically is now. This bid came out several weeks ago.

This smells a bit of the union stirring up trouble in advance of a union policy of not accepting overtime by acting like this is not normal practice and a management mistake.


Absolutely incorrect. The PBS system awarded the pilots schedules just like any other month. The glitch manifested itself when the trip-trade window opened and the pilots were able to trade/drop trips that would otherwise normally have been protected. The union's concern is that since there was no agreement in place on the selective premium pay that there may be issues with pay comp in the future should there be an error in correctly processing the pay. This has been an ongoing problem for the pilots since the merger.

To err is human. To really screw up takes a computer.

Questions:
1. Is there anything stopping a pilot from signing up for the 1.5X pay?
2. Can the pilots identify 1.5X pay routes?
3. How much over the available on call pool of pilots is this error?
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