alasizon
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 am

My guess is the final settlement will be 1.5x for 17th-22nd, 2.25x for 23rd-26th, and 1.5x for 27th-31st. Nothing will stop AA either from having regionals who have the crews pick up some of the flying as extra sections (aircraft and gate space permitting).

APA can urge pilots not to pick up all they want but there are a good chunk of crew members that will gladly take the opportunity to pick up at 1.5x when they were already planning on picking up open trips anyhow.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
grbauc
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:24 am

jnev3289 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
You totally convinced me with that logic


Well you clearly don't get it.
AA should be offering to pay out 3 times as much, if not more to cover their mistake.
It's AA's responsibility to act in good faith. They failed in this situation.

If you really think employees granted time off should come back to and work and just do it out of the kindness of their hearts, I'll just be over here in the corner laughing at you, along with everyone else.

I know when my employer makes a mistake I make sure to bleed them for all it's worth... That's how I build goodwill with them. I would hope they're just as unforgiving if I make a mistake too then



I hear you loud and clear. why stick it to my employer. Now i see a employer upping the ante for good will to the workers for inconveniences and such. I don't get the adversarial relationship between worker and employee.
 
nc3rd
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:32 am

The company should've been much more honest with themselves and their crews on this and say "We messed up", now we need your help to put it back together, and we are offering 2x pay (over and above normal) bc we know its an important time for you and you're families and by now you've all made new plans. Instead they came out and gave a really complex solution trying to pay premium pay to as few people as possible, when the pilot group is now under no obligation to pick it up. I hate that its gotten so ugly so quick, I blame union for that, but I'm still hopefully it gets resolved in the end.
The views written above are mine and mine alone and do not represent any official information from any airline or company
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:44 am

Some greedy folks on this site
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
TW870
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:06 am

lightsaber wrote:
CanesFan wrote:
enilria wrote:
This sounds to me like normal during a peak time. It's not unusual to have a significant number of flights expected to be covered with reserves and call-backs, particularly in peaks. Further, those call-backs do have a pay bonus probably something like 1.5x. So, I'm confused about this. It sounds like business as usual, not a glitch. Software, smoftware. It would have been noticed if scheduled crew hours were way down from last year during the bid if this was different than year ago practice. This would never be discovered inside the month which it basically is now. This bid came out several weeks ago.

This smells a bit of the union stirring up trouble in advance of a union policy of not accepting overtime by acting like this is not normal practice and a management mistake.


Absolutely incorrect. The PBS system awarded the pilots schedules just like any other month. The glitch manifested itself when the trip-trade window opened and the pilots were able to trade/drop trips that would otherwise normally have been protected. The union's concern is that since there was no agreement in place on the selective premium pay that there may be issues with pay comp in the future should there be an error in correctly processing the pay. This has been an ongoing problem for the pilots since the merger.

To err is human. To really screw up takes a computer.

Questions:
1. Is there anything stopping a pilot from signing up for the 1.5X pay?
2. Can the pilots identify 1.5X pay routes?
3. How much over the available on call pool of pilots is this error?


For question 2, my understanding from the above thread and other sources is that days with potentially thin staffing (12/24, 12/25, 12/31) that should have had an embargo on trip dropping ended up with unlimited dropping. Tons of people put in drop requests for the holiday but didn't necessarily expect to get them, but then magically everyone got them. Therefore, what I think you have now is just a ton of trips in open flying. Once there is an agreement on the pay rate to resolve the problem, all open trips on impacted days will be paid at the higher rate until the company decides coverage is adequate. The pilot picking up time will know the rate in advance.

Overall, crew overtime incentive pay is a win win for everyone. I commute for work on DL as a revenue pax, and their incentive pay system encourages pilots to pick up on short notice, which avoids cancellations. It is much faster, easier, and more reliable than "junior manning" or "drafting" in which companies force lineholders to pick up in tight coverage situations. United flight attendants are getting a somewhat similar incentive pay system in their new contract - which should also help UA's delay and cancel numbers. I never stress on tight coverage Friday or Sunday nights on the last days of summer months because I know that in the event of crew shortages at DL that incentive pay will encourage people to cover the trips - which rewards the pilot for keeping me a satisfied passenger.
 
CanesFan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:31 am

lightsaber wrote:
To err is human. To really screw up takes a computer.

Questions:
1. Is there anything stopping a pilot from signing up for the 1.5X pay?
2. Can the pilots identify 1.5X pay routes?
3. How much over the available on call pool of pilots is this error?


1. Union/contractual caveats aside, as long as the pilot is qualified, legal, and available, nothing should prevent him/her from participating.
2. Yes. Our company website details which dates apply to which aircraft/seat/division. There is some variation among the various fleet types/bases.
3. Considerable. The PBS bidding system is designed to increase the number of line holders and decrease the number of reserves.
 
rbavfan
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:34 am

winginit wrote:
Sounds like AA is offering 1.5X pay to pilots to ensure the flights are filled. That will resolve the issue but my oh my it will certainly come at a cost.


Sorry but at a time when all planes are usually packed to the walls the 1.5x won't have a big a cost effect as you think.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:39 am

One might conclude AA is using the same crew scheduling software as Ryanair...
 
allegiantflyer
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:42 am

Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?
 
TW870
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?


Yes. In the sUA flight attendant contract, there were originally 10 holidays at 2x the hourly rate for the flying done on the actual calendar holiday, and then after the bankruptcy that was lowered to I believe 5 holidays. In the original system, thanksgiving, for example, counted as two of those 10 holidays, as the double time was paid for all flying in the Thursday and Friday. It always went senior, and the operation was very well staffed making it easy to cover irregularities.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:14 am

How long before some of the other AA unions ask for the same bonus? The highest-paid work group getting a substantial pay over-ride due to an (honest) error and not due to any specific increase in productivity or improved performance might not sit too well with the employees that won't see any additional pay just because no one messed up their vacation bidding process.

This could get a little messy and expensive.

allegiantflyer wrote:
Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?


While not technically a 'company', the FAA, and I believe all Federal employees, earn double pay if you work the holiday and you get normal pay if the holiday falls on your RDO (regular day off).
Last edited by jetblastdubai on Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ltbewr
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:17 am

What could also happen is that those that work when they had planned to take off will get some extra days off or some higher preference in bids for flights they want to work other times of the year from their home base city/airport. This would likely have to be worked through the Unions.
 
dc10lover
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:23 am

American Airlines flights during holidays currently without pilots, says union

NEW YORK - If you can't book a ticket on Santa's sleigh, the holidays may become more of a travel nightmare than usual this year.

According to the pilot's union, thousands of American Airlines flights next month, including over the busy holiday travel period, do not have pilots assigned to them due to a computer glitch.

https://www.local10.com/travel/american ... g_breaking
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:42 am

I have a booking on Dec 26th
Rarely fly AA... But I wanted a non-stop and I didn't wanna fly in economy, I hope they (and I think they will) resolve this soon.

I wonder if this is having a negative impact on bookings, it is all over the news
 
Darklord1
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:27 am

I’m booked on AA on the 20th to LGA via ORD. I hope this doesn’t affect my plans to see my family
 
allegiantflyer
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:45 am

So are the flights that are unstaffed on Christmas or on days around Christmas? I had no idea AA did not offer holiday pay
 
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csturdiv
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:16 am

Darklord1 wrote:
I’m booked on AA on the 20th to LGA via ORD. I hope this doesn’t affect my plans to see my family


You and me both. I have an AA flight on the 16th when I get back to the US and then more flights on the 26th, 30th, Jan 2nd, Jan 10th and finally Jan 12th, Will be going through ORD and DFW on flights connecting to RSW and EVV.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
USAOZ
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:45 am

the big question for passengers, is will all flights have crews ? Pax don't care about cause just effect. It's now end of NOV. Why didn't this problem surface earlier ? Who's been asleep "at the wheel"? Surely many knew of this issue a while back.
 
BlatantEcho
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:46 am

I think it’s quite interesting how much Us vs. Them is on display in this thread.
How much bad blood is there between you all and your places of work?

If I screwed up like this, I’d say ‘oops, I’m sorry’ and ask my staff to cover the shifts like normal.
No one would freak out, or demand overtime.
It’s a business, not a charity. If you hold your employer ransome when they screw up - do you have any right to complain when they go bankrupt and you’re fired?

It’s just so weird, everyone sees this as an opportunity to screw over their company, instead of working together to operate December schedule like it’s been operated for years and years before.

So strange to see.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 am

CanesFan wrote:
The pilots, myself included, used the trip-trading program to rework our schedules in accordance with the CBA. A certain number of trades and or drops would have been allowed, but not nearly the magnitude of what ultimately took place. A glitch of some sort occurred, and far more days off were granted than what typically would have been. However, this all happened in a contractual fashion. If the computer allows it, it is considered done. The company can't go back and have a re-do. This is no different than if I made a mistake in how I bid my monthly schedule. If I screw it up, I have to either rework it according to the system provided or suck it up and fly it.


I worked for a major Cable company once, in customer service. A shift bid was done by seniority and completed, which occurred about every 6 months, and I knew what my days off and hours of work would be, to make plans on my days off, etc. But, less than a week later, the company said we'd have to do another bid because something wasn't right.

They were a big f'ng company, and have done many shift bids over the years, and so nothing should have had to be redone. Of course, it was never explained to us peons what went wrong on their part to require us to do another shift bid.

So we had to do the re-bid because, we had no union agreement to protect us being yanked around like that. I left the company not long after that because of the callousness in which they dealt with this.

From the local DFW News reports on the AA thing, AA mentioned the 1.5 pay because they said that "contractually" that's as much as they were allowed to offer. But the Pilot's union said that no one from AA had yet reached out to them to talk about "working something out".
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
asctty
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:59 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
One might conclude AA is using the same crew scheduling software as Ryanair...

Strange how all the Ryanair bashers who had a field day with the pilot scheduling problems the other month (which Ryanair held their hands up to and admitted it was all their own fault) haven't been comparing this debacle to it?
Maybe it's because most Ryanair bashers have never actually flown with them?
AA doesn't seem to be to be much better, although I have never flown with them........
 
pabloeing
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:15 am

I fly the December 9 from JFK to MIA in the AA235.......¿I have in a problem?
 
dc10lover
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:04 am

American Airlines needs to e-mailed / text everyone who holds tickets and alert them about the situation.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Ufsatp
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:14 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
I think it’s quite interesting how much Us vs. Them is on display in this thread.
How much bad blood is there between you all and your places of work?

If I screwed up like this, I’d say ‘oops, I’m sorry’ and ask my staff to cover the shifts like normal.
No one would freak out, or demand overtime.
It’s a business, not a charity. If you hold your employer ransome when they screw up - do you have any right to complain when they go bankrupt and you’re fired?

It’s just so weird, everyone sees this as an opportunity to screw over their company, instead of working together to operate December schedule like it’s been operated for years and years before.

So strange to see.


Exactly! Unfortunately it appears that the customers will be the ones getting screwed.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:03 am

TWA902fly wrote:
That's not how math works. Just because your company has the x3 overtime-on-demand policy does not make 1.5x+1.5x=3x. That 'x' stands for something. As an example, lets say the normal rate is $100/hr, 1.5x$100= $150. Then $150x1.5 = $225.

'902


Indeed, 100 for regular time, add 50 for OT, 150. The favour is payed double, so as an additional hour with its additional OT allowance: 100 + 50 + (100+50) = 300 = x3
 
jumbojet
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:09 am

pabloeing wrote:
I fly the December 9 from JFK to MIA in the AA235.......¿I have in a problem?


Its all over the news this morning. Channel 4 just said for flights between Dec 17th and Dec 31.
 
airtran737
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:12 am

I love the armchair QB’s here who think that the pilots should just say that AA gets a mulligan and that they should allow a re-bid. How many of you work in a 24/7 industry like us? How many of you can honestly say that if you were given Christmas off (or time off around it), told your family, and subsequently made plans with your family, would just say “oh it’s ok that you screwed up, I will give up my plans to help you.” Very few. I’m sorry, but we have a special skill set that nearly all of the population doesn’t have, and if you need us, then pay us. That’s how this wonderful thing called capitalism works.

I have no doubt that APA and AA will come to an incentive agreement to entice pilots to give up their time and fly this holiday season. There are plenty of people willing to do it, but the price has to be worth the sacrifice of being away. Not everyone gets the holidays off, and when the scheduling gods drop a gift in your lap, you smile and take it.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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chrisnh
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:19 am

:roll: It’s a good thing this ‘Never-Lose-Money-Again’ airline has a lot of it :roll:
 
jumbojet
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:31 am

Watching 4 New York from the Delta Skyclub at EWR. Their giving regular updates on this breaking story. They interviewed several AA pilots and all of them said that they would NOT come in during the holiday snafu, vacation plans are set with families. There is evidently a lot of bad blood between the pilots and AA management. Leaves me to wonder, if this happened with a number of different airlines, those that have better relations between the pilots and management, if we would even be discussing this matter right now. If the majority of pilots say no to coming in, I cant see AA having that many reserve pilots to cover 15,000 flights. This thread just might eclipse the # of posts that the UA Dr. Dao incident thread of 7 months ago.

Sit back, grab the popcorn and soda pop. The next several weeks at AA will be interesting.
 
xdlx
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:59 am

Is the system utilized the PMUS or PMAA scheduling protocol?
 
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DL747400
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:35 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


Because that is the mentality of UNIONS, which eventually infects most of it's members.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
airtran737
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:04 pm

DL747400 wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


Because that is the mentality of UNIONS, which eventually infects most of it's members.


Why should anyone be obligated to come in and work when they have been given time off? If you gave it to me, I’m taking it. You want it back, pay me what’s it’s truly worth, not what you think it’s worth. You people would have the same mentality. 300% pay is the minimum that this trip coverage is worth.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
cledaybuck
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:14 pm

DL747400 wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
727200 wrote:
I read some other newsline articles on it. The 1.5x isnt good enough, union looking for more

That's pretty greedy and selfish in my opinion. It was an honest mistake. Why would you put your employer through the ringer for a computer's mistake?


Because that is the mentality of UNIONS, which eventually infects most of it's members.
If my employer offered me 1.5x my pay to work on Christmas, that wouldn't get me to come in and work. We are also talking the end of the year here, so some pilots may be coming up against their yearly limits.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
9w748capt
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 pm

I can't recall so please refresh my memory - weren't LAA pilots one of the first work groups to get on board with Dougie and the merger? Hahaha and this is how they pay him back? Hilarious. Morale must be at an all-time low.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 pm

Disasters like this are usually a sign of rot inside management. Only when the beancounters neglect making reasonable investments over time in technology and competent staff, does it get to this kind of a "glitch". And AA's response has been predictably pathetic. DP seems to think that keeping the tab low at this point is his biggest issue. Again...total lack of vision and understanding. Not flying these flights will cause massive harm to the brand and losses. And if they drag out the negotiations with the union and look cheap, the damage will be almost as bad as not flying at all, because passengers will figure out that DP is playing chicken with the union and therefore imperiling their holiday plans, many of which will be VFR trips...meaning highly emotionally loaded. If I were DP, I would offer 3x or 4x pay and be done with it.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 pm

allegiantflyer wrote:
Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?

Yes, UA ramp I believe is Double Time on holidays (pretty sure) and sick is often covered with OT, at time-and-a-half. Those OT coverage heads are making mint that day at 3X normal pay. That's close $1,000 for an 8 hour shift for an employee with high seniority.

That's true in many industries that have 24/365 responsibilities.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:03 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?

Yes, UA ramp I believe is Double Time on holidays (pretty sure) and sick is often covered with OT, at time-and-a-half. Those OT coverage heads are making mint that day at 3X normal pay. That's close $1,000 for an 8 hour shift for an employee with high seniority.

That's true in many industries that have 24/365 responsibilities.


Except for the slave labor Holiday pay rates for most in the non-Union 24/365 Security Guard Industry.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
anjin
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:10 pm

Director of Crew Scheduling is up
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/529695967/
 
Rdh3e
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:12 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
Curious... do any companies already offer 1.5x pay for holidays regardless of glitches?

Yes, UA ramp I believe is Double Time on holidays (pretty sure) and sick is often covered with OT, at time-and-a-half. Those OT coverage heads are making mint that day at 3X normal pay. That's close $1,000 for an 8 hour shift for an employee with high seniority.

That's true in many industries that have 24/365 responsibilities.


Except for the slave labor Holiday pay rates for most in the non-Union 24/365 Security Guard Industry.

They could always Unionize...
 
xdlx
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:16 pm

Perhaps the 1K limit per year in addition to the attrition, and pilot shortage have created the "perfect storm". Software issues notwithstanding, the schedule published may have needed more pilots than available for this two week period.
 
TW870
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:24 pm

USAOZ wrote:
the big question for passengers, is will all flights have crews ? Pax don't care about cause just effect. It's now end of NOV. Why didn't this problem surface earlier ? Who's been asleep "at the wheel"? Surely many knew of this issue a while back.


Because it didn't happen earlier. The problem was not in the original schedule construction. It happened because instead of allowing 0 trip drops for the holiday, a computer error caused the system to begin to offer unlimited trip drops. Everyone who had a request in was immediately awarded the request.

Overall I think some of this is media hype. If they have a good pay incentive (which some companies already have for holiday flying), many people will pick up open trips and cover the operation. Remember, on busy Fridays in the summer many DL trips go out at 300% pay anyway. But passengers don't know or care because their flights are on time.
 
Sooner787
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:43 pm

anjin wrote:
Director of Crew Scheduling is up
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/529695967/



Dang....the old Director got canned quicker than Matt Lauer LOL
 
727200
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Wow, they didn't waste any time on that position.
 
stlgph
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:05 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Watching 4 New York from the Delta Skyclub at EWR. Their giving regular updates on this breaking story. They interviewed several AA pilots and all of them said that they would NOT come in during the holiday snafu, vacation plans are set with families. There is evidently a lot of bad blood between the pilots and AA management. Leaves me to wonder, if this happened with a number of different airlines, those that have better relations between the pilots and management, if we would even be discussing this matter right now. If the majority of pilots say no to coming in, I cant see AA having that many reserve pilots to cover 15,000 flights. This thread just might eclipse the # of posts that the UA Dr. Dao incident thread of 7 months ago.

Sit back, grab the popcorn and soda pop. The next several weeks at AA will be interesting.


Thank you!
*YOU* get this.
Others here clearly don't.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
wenders825
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:29 pm

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:16 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Watching 4 New York from the Delta Skyclub at EWR. Their giving regular updates on this breaking story. They interviewed several AA pilots and all of them said that they would NOT come in during the holiday snafu, vacation plans are set with families. There is evidently a lot of bad blood between the pilots and AA management. Leaves me to wonder, if this happened with a number of different airlines, those that have better relations between the pilots and management, if we would even be discussing this matter right now. If the majority of pilots say no to coming in, I cant see AA having that many reserve pilots to cover 15,000 flights. This thread just might eclipse the # of posts that the UA Dr. Dao incident thread of 7 months ago.

Sit back, grab the popcorn and soda pop. The next several weeks at AA will be interesting.

wonder how your reply would read if this happened to DL
 
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par13del
Posts: 9597
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Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:32 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
One might conclude AA is using the same crew scheduling software as Ryanair...

Sure took a long time for this question to come up.

What I think some are missing with the whole automation is that these pilots put in request, they were approved so they made plans with family, not sure how many of them would be telling colleagues their vacation plans. At my present company prior to our new automation, staff sent out their vacation e-mails while walking out the door on the last day.
So if the automation fails, the problem is huge, thing is someone should have been monitoring or at least some automatic triggers should have been in place, the fact that they already got rid of someone may imply monitoring.

Overtime is 1.5x, holidays not scheduled are usually 2x, coming in off your vacation is usually full pay or reschedule, cancelling or taking penalties on flights, hotels and other items already booked is a whole different story. It can certainly be done on a case by case basis but for the numbers involved.......
Thankfully, I did not make plans to travel over this holiday season, so best of luck to those who may be impacted, I am hoping for the best.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2118
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:47 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Watching 4 New York from the Delta Skyclub at EWR. Their giving regular updates on this breaking story. They interviewed several AA pilots and all of them said that they would NOT come in during the holiday snafu, vacation plans are set with families.


Of course you'll only see those that say they won't. It wouldn't make for good ratings and good "panic" if the pilots on TV say they will.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2560
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:54 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
If my employer offered me 1.5x my pay to work on Christmas, that wouldn't get me to come in and work. We are also talking the end of the year here, so some pilots may be coming up against their yearly limits.


I very much doubt 1.5x will fix the problem. Offering standard overtime pay to cover a massive screw up over a holiday where everyone wants to be with family is dumb on management's part. This isn't an average summer day where staffing is tight so they need to offer some premium pay to find volunteers. It's a holiday and I'm sure many of the pilots that were granted the day off have already made plans to be with family including reservations for hotels, flights (nonrev over holidays sucks!), car rentals, cruises, etc...

AA management is trying to pinch pennies here and is getting a black eye in the press as a result. Every news station is running stories about how your holiday might be ruined if you're flying American. I'm sure its having some sort of effect for people that haven't booked yet. If you were the average, uninformed flyer wouldn't you spend another $10-20 per ticket to avoid this potential mess? The right way to handle this would have been for management to contact APA when they first learned of the problem, immediately offer 2x as a show of goodwill, and be ready to go to 2.5x or even 3x if that's what it took to get APA on board.

End of year doesn't really play into running out of hours as much as it used to as FAR 117 changed the 1,000 hours per calendar year to a rolling 365 day period. You can now bump up against the 1,000 hours any time of year.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5167
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:19 pm

A friend of mine has been a pilot with AA for more than 25 years. I think the bid sheets for any given month come out around the middle of the prior month. Pilots have 5 to 7 days to submit the lines they would like to fly. So, if you are very, very senior on your aircraft type at your base, you might only submit a few lines, knowing that you will get one of those lines. If you are typically flying reserve, you might submit a number of lines, knowing that you probably won't get a line with a schedule.

Proposed schedules come out around the 20th of the prior month. Normally, the proposed schedule that a pilot receives is the schedule he flies. There might be changes, if American makes changes between the 20th and the end of a month. Pilots can also try to drop a trip or pick up a trip.

The fact that it became public knowledge of the scheduling issue on November 29 is putting AA in a bind, because it's 9 days after the proposed schedules were sent to pilots. To rebid the month would be very difficult.

What has me scratching my head is the fact that a number of lines would have flying throughout the month. Years ago, my friend used to fly to the Caribbean out of the ORD crew base. If he had solely 3-days trips in a month, he would have had 4 trips, each starting on the same day of the week. So, getting a schedule with only 3 trips, when the lines he bid had 4 trips would have caught his attention.

Here comes the problem with reserves. They can get maxed out around the holidays. Once, I was flying ORD-ATL on December 26th. The MD-80 arrived from STL, and the captain was unable to fly because of hourly limits. The problem was that ORD had no more reserve pilots. The captain schedule to fly to ATL was deadheading from DFW, and that flight was running about 10 minutes late. Couple that with the captain needing to check in at Ops before walking down to K1, and our flight wound up 30 minutes late, despite it getting in from STL 15 minutes early.

Depending on how the 150% pay offer goes, AA could still burn through reserve pilots rather quickly.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5167
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: APA: Thousands of AA flights scheduled without pilots due to system error

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:30 pm

It would be interesting to know whether AA is using its legacy software, or if it is using legacy US software for crew scheduling. I know that was one of the many integration issues.

Regardless, I'm betting that the scheduling program is probably old, and it has been updated repeatedly. My wife works in IT. There comes a point where going to newer versions of an old program no longer makes sense. But, installing a brand new program has its issues. My wife works in financial services. So, once the U.S. markets close on a Friday, they have about 36 hours to bring down a system, install new software (or hardware), test, and bring the system up before the Asian markets open on Monday morning.

Commercial aviation is a 24/7 operation, particularly with domestic redeyes and overnight flying between the U.S. and Europe, Asia, and South America.

To bring down one part of the company's entire computer operation (such as pilot scheduling) might require to bring down other aspects of the system. Even though scheduling is usually completed before the start of the month, pilot scheduling still needs to be up and running all the time to deal with calling in reserves, as well as possibly swapping crews around because of airplanes going tech, weather delays, and the like.

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