vadodara
Posts: 1034
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
vadodara wrote:
...a former UAL executive figured out how this math works and went on to start an airline now known as IndiGo that may very well have put AI out of its misery!


That explains a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d9rlBd ... tu.be&t=81

Wait until AI is history, Indian passengers have to touch feet of every employee of the only surviving monopoly airline in India.

While I appreciate her personal courage and appropriate punishment, that kind of behaviour is not good for any power trip airline employee.


I think the only useful asset Indigo and other bidders find in AI are the employees!
 
vadodara
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Kevinflyer wrote:
I thought I’d ask the elephant in the room on this one...

Does anyone know how the emergence of the ME3 has impacted the route profitability for AI, UA etc?

As I know the ME3 are very popular choices in the South Asian Community as well.


If you look at the # of secondary US and European cities they fly to as well as # of Indian cities, the # of 1-stop city pairs is incredible. That is why the knives are out for ME3.

In reality, they are using geography to their advantage. The bonehead laws in countries like India help the ME3. Retard unions of airlines like AI, AlItalia and such do not help their cause.

To your question, UA may enjoy a premium because of their ability to funnel traffic from small NE/Midwestern airports to EWR for 1-stop flights to BOM/DEL. But other than that, UA is at a big disadvantage.
 
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kjeld0d
Posts: 458
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:28 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Indians have no perception of cleanliness, you may enter a "just cleaned" restroom and feel it is downright nasty.

Sadly it is a true observation. Would you say that it is only on flights to and from India? When ever I fly within or to and fro from India, I try to be the first one to use the toilet but always there are a few people who beat me to it. And when it is my turn to use the toilet, its already disgusting. Due to positioning myself to avoid the mess, I add to the filth. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUMtHcUMWo

I always wondered whether that was an exaggeration...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7210
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:10 pm

vadodara wrote:
I think the only useful asset Indigo and other bidders find in AI are the employees!


There was an interesting tweet by someone on this issue, cannot find it now, says something like this

Indigo - We beat our passengers
Air India - Our passengers beat us
Go Air - No one flies us
SpiceJet-??,
Vistara-We have no planes
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7210
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:34 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
However I don't know how the route wise historical financial performance of the 2 airlines help Air India be a real airline or for that matter of fact a profitable company.

How else you know UA's EWR-BOM is profitable, We know AI's exact loss on this route.

Now the PR jumps in to say route profitability is confidential information. You cannot say a company which publishes route profitability details is opaque and the one doesn't publish(for any reason) transparent.

oceanvikram wrote:
Also can you please clarify "uneducated" Indian journalists? Surely the journalists in India have been to university or at least finished school.


Not aviation journalists, just need to be related to one of the editors. Most don't have elementary math skills.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2929
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 pm

Irehdna wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Nimish wrote:
The 3-3-3 seating on the 772 is welcome, as is the Y+ seating, and much preferred over AI's 3-3-3 on the 787 or the 3-4-3 on the 77W. Once UA move this route to a 3-4-3 on a 777, it will not be as pleasant a flight as it is right now.


AI are still 3-3-3 on all 777s for the moment.


UA is 3-4-3 though. I think most in eco on 16 hr flights would prefer more spacious 3-3-3. IMO airlines with 9-abreast 777 can definitely market this product over competitors smaller seats.


The issue is whether in 10 abreast, a B772 could make BOM or DEL or not. I believe that an equipment change would be needed.
 
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Schweigend
Posts: 528
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:11 am

Irehdna wrote:
UA is 3-4-3 though. I think most in eco on 16 hr flights would prefer more spacious 3-3-3. IMO airlines with 9-abreast 777 can definitely market this product over competitors smaller seats.


Not true for UA's 77E routes at the moment -- all flying have 3-3-3 in Y. Total 77E fleet is 55 frames.

While the 77W (14) and 777A (19) have 10-abreast in Y, the 77E still has 3-3-3 seating on both the -22 and -24 models.

There is a 777-222ER about to come out of Polaris modification early next year, and we'll see then what it will look like.
 
United1
Posts: 3877
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:45 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:

AI are still 3-3-3 on all 777s for the moment.


UA is 3-4-3 though. I think most in eco on 16 hr flights would prefer more spacious 3-3-3. IMO airlines with 9-abreast 777 can definitely market this product over competitors smaller seats.


The issue is whether in 10 abreast, a B772 could make BOM or DEL or not. I believe that an equipment change would be needed.


I don't know for sure although BOM may be pushing it...that being said the exCO birds won't get Polarisized for a couple of years.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:09 am

BOM-EWR is already very close to the limit (Just like EWR-HKG is) for the plane. If they increase seating density on the airplane with the Polaris retrofit, there may be some problems resulting in weight restrictions and blocked seats.
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:32 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
BOM-EWR is already very close to the limit (Just like EWR-HKG is) for the plane. If they increase seating density on the airplane with the Polaris retrofit, there may be some problems resulting in weight restrictions and blocked seats.


^^Second that. This aircraft has to take off from a 3200m runway to embark on a flight that typically lasts 15h30min in the air. The saying is that on certain months UA deliberately calls a "full" flight one with a couple empty seats, so that it can make the trip.

IIRC there was another poster a while back stating that UA had empty seats while AI/AC do not. Do bear in mind that both AI/AC have longer-range aircraft on the route than UA, so the fact that UA is not "filling" is probably not due to its lack of position in the market.

I'm surprised UA has not shifted some B789 to EWR for the India routes. They could definitely run something like LAX/SFO - HKG - EWR - India - EWR - HKG - SFO/LAX or the likes.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:34 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
vadodara wrote:
I think the only useful asset Indigo and other bidders find in AI are the employees!


There was an interesting tweet by someone on this issue, cannot find it now, says something like this

Indigo - We beat our passengers
Air India - Our passengers beat us
Go Air - No one flies us
SpiceJet-??,
Vistara-We have no planes


Too generous to AI employees; perhaps you could share the video of AI pilots sucking a ground engineer in one of the engines. Sorry, that would be in bad taste. But u should get the point.
 
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AA777223
Posts: 1073
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:16 pm

Irehdna wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Nimish wrote:
The 3-3-3 seating on the 772 is welcome, as is the Y+ seating, and much preferred over AI's 3-3-3 on the 787 or the 3-4-3 on the 77W. Once UA move this route to a 3-4-3 on a 777, it will not be as pleasant a flight as it is right now.


AI are still 3-3-3 on all 777s for the moment.


UA is 3-4-3 though. I think most in eco on 16 hr flights would prefer more spacious 3-3-3. IMO airlines with 9-abreast 777 can definitely market this product over competitors smaller seats.

Everyone keeps saying that, and it really isn't true. These routes are usually served by PMCO GE powered 77Es. Those are 3-3-3 in Y. The only 3-4-3 arrangements in Y at UA are the 77Ws and the domestic configured, old 77As that are designed for hub to hub domestic runs and Hawaii. Even the 77Es that are getting reconfigured with Polaris are remaining 3-3-3 in Y. Almost all longhaul flights on UA are 3-3-3 in econ (787 and 777). The 744s were 3-4-3, but are gone, and there are fewer 77Ws than there were 744s, so I believe we are netting negative on the amount of 3-4-3s for longhaul at UA. This myth needs to stop being promulgated on A.net.

I welcome correction if I am wrong.
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815Oceanic
Posts: 181
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm

AA777223 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:

AI are still 3-3-3 on all 777s for the moment.


UA is 3-4-3 though. I think most in eco on 16 hr flights would prefer more spacious 3-3-3. IMO airlines with 9-abreast 777 can definitely market this product over competitors smaller seats.

Everyone keeps saying that, and it really isn't true. These routes are usually served by PMCO GE powered 77Es. Those are 3-3-3 in Y. The only 3-4-3 arrangements in Y at UA are the 77Ws and the domestic configured, old 77As that are designed for hub to hub domestic runs and Hawaii. Even the 77Es that are getting reconfigured with Polaris are remaining 3-3-3 in Y. Almost all longhaul flights on UA are 3-3-3 in econ (787 and 777). The 744s were 3-4-3, but are gone, and there are fewer 77Ws than there were 744s, so I believe we are netting negative on the amount of 3-4-3s for longhaul at UA. This myth needs to stop being promulgated on A.net.

I welcome correction if I am wrong.


You are, the new 77E configuration has 50J and 242 Y with 3-4-3.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/united ... 77-layout/
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:43 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
AA served ORD-DEL for about five years from 2004-2009. I believe it was a marginal performer initially but EY entering the ORD-India market and AI going nonstop, plus the recession made it unprofitable quickly.

ORD-BOM does seem to be underserved considering the demographic breakdown of the Indian population in Chicago

ORD-DEL was 2005-2012, not 2004-2009, on AA
Pakistan's aviation sector is coming back. It won't be as strong as our eastern neighbor, nowhere close, but it's going to grow over time. Stand by and watch.

Born to Pakistani parents near ORD; raised and based near ORD.
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:48 pm

Let's leave the gross generalizations about an entire culture of people in 2017.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
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Re: Are Indian operations profitable for United Airlines?

Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:34 pm

I think UA should keep EWR-BOM and add ORD-BOM. AI EWR-BOM should become EWR-DEL to maximise connection opportunities as a good number of people in NJ come outside BOM/AMD such as MAA/HYD. These people could connect to AI's international connector flights offered at DEL, so they finish customs at their final destinations. Those wanting to go to BOM could just take UA or connect in DEL and anyways complete immigration in BOM from AI102.

UA is doing very well on BOM-EWR, and I think with this change they could bring the 77W down to BOM, where restrictions won't be as significant. UA won't be getting much connecting traffic in India regardless of DEL/BOM, due to the timings favouring connections on the USA side.

I don't see UA starting EWR-AMD nonstop unless they can get a B789 to do the India routes.

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