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CARST
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:27 am

barney captain wrote:
WN got rid of mandatory hats over a decade ago and it was a very happy day indeed. Some still choose to wear them (and that's fine) but they are unbearably hot and you end up looking like hell with a a sweat-soaked head. Doing a pre-flight in the summer, it felt like you were wearing a shower cap - they were lined with plastic and didn't breathe.

Good riddance.

Hats? Virgin America pilots don't even wear ties -


Image


The grey shirts, no ties, no hats, they don't look like pilots. It doesn't make them for me less an authority, but the look is just wrong.

Breaking out of accepted standards has always been the trend of showing you are young, modern and unadapted. But it was always the wrong way. It's the way old people (who run the airline) think young people want a product or company to look like. But young as old like pilots old-fashioned. If someone would make a marketing study of it, I would bet that would be the result. What young people want is go cheap from A to B, they are less aligned to a brand, they want free wifi and a great IFE/PTV product or just streaming with USB power sockets. But this is just old peoples marketing for the "target group".
 
chiki
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:57 am

As a frequent flier i think thats unacceptable, we need our pilots with their caps, its just give the passengers a degree of confirdence
1. Do you want your president to address the nation in tee-shirts and jeans, or your lawyer to come to court in t-shirt and jeans
 
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scbriml
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:59 am

I was going to say "Who cares?" but clearly some do, which I find pretty odd. Passengers used to wear suits and fur coats as well, but it's not the 1940s any more.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:08 am

BREECH wrote:
That being Holland, I can't help asking, what they mean by "more accessible"? Either KLM has very bad translators or they REALLY didn't think this press release through.

KLM management wants pilots to interact more with passengers. It is thought that this improves the total travel experience for their customers. Normally the crew just walks past the waiting passengers at the gate without speaking to them. By removing the cap pilots are more easily to approach. Thereby giving them a chance to make KLM stand out compared to other airlines. And persuading passengers to book KLM again for future travels. I think taking the caps off is a good move. People make a bigger difference than caps.
 
covert
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:23 am

Old fashioned way of thinking. I don't see the point in uniforms. It doesn't make me fly a plane any better.
none
 
ltbewr
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:25 am

Caps and hats have pretty much gone from common wearing by men and women generations ago so it is not surprising that fewer occupations will wear them too.
 
EricAY05
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:17 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Although I'm a big fan of KLM, I'm very disappointed to read about this decision. I don't want pilots to look "modern and accessible", I want them to look authoritative and respectable.


This :thumbsup: Unfortunately, in a few decades we will see the same pilots flying in jeans, t-shirts and old running shoes. Just like business class travel (at least in the US and parts of Europe) went from stylish to total crap in a few decades.
 
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:39 am

covert wrote:
Old fashioned way of thinking. I don't see the point in uniforms. It doesn't make me fly a plane any better.

No, however with more and more cases of unruly passengers, having someone aboard who has authority, coming in both behavior and looks, definitely has added value.
Furthermore, KLM pilots fly to other places than Europe and North America. In Africa, South America and Asia looking like an authority figure also gets you treatment like an authority figure, which can be really useful if trying to motivate people through a language barrier...
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
marcelh
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
Authority does not come from a piece of clothing.

This.
A monkey in a uniform is still a monkey.
 
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Aesma
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:55 pm

smi0006 wrote:
Interesting, a lot of full service airlines are going more upscale with their uniforms.

We’ve seen a return of cabin crew hats in the last decade- NZ, QF, AZ, BA, DL, QR,EY, etc. so I’m not sure I agree with KLM this is a trend, admittedly tech crew uniforms are changed far less frequently I think they are going out solo on this on. Maybe just the option leave it up to the individual?

I do like the new white QF hats- looks sharp to me.


Well if cabin crew wear hats, then pilots wearing hats will not make them stand out. I think shirts with epaulets are enough, if they wear jeans with it, fine by me.

I hate ties infinitely more than hats though. Dangling a useless piece of fabric around my neck, never. At least a hat can have a use.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
I was going to say "Who cares?" but clearly some do, which I find pretty odd. Passengers used to wear suits and fur coats as well, but it's not the 1940s any more.

So many here just seem to have a thang for a man in uniform...
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm

Cunard wrote:
LTCM wrote:
Greyhound drivers don't have caps so pilots shouldn't either.


Oh come on how can you compare a Greyhound driver and a Pilot!

It was also a tradition years ago for Chauffeurs to wear a cap but it's very uncommon to see them these days but in my line of work it's actually nice to see the odd Chauffeur wearing a cap as it makes them stand out from the rest of them just like a captain wearing his cap.

If it's optional sure I get but I still think it should be worn when appropriate.

I remember when I was a young sea going officer at 18 that the cap messed up my hairstyle of the day and I hated wearing it because of that but on the other hand it got me a lot of attention especially being so young in full uniform, the old American ladies loved me :-)


This story made me smile :-) especially the part about not wanting to wear a hat because it messes up your hair. Sounds very much like something I’d do.
 
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GE90man
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:13 pm

LTCM wrote:
Greyhound drivers don't have caps so pilots shouldn't either.

Greyhound drivers aren’t remotely on the same level as pilots.
 
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scbriml
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:36 pm

GE90man wrote:
Greyhound drivers aren’t remotely on the same level as pilots.


There are pilots out there flying fewer passengers and probably earning less than the bus driver. But as long as they wear a cap, eh? :wink2:
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Vio
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:52 pm

I'm just curious: Out of all the posts here, how many of those "pro hat" are actually airline pilots that have to wear it? I personally don't like wearing the hat. I don't think it looks good, makes me look like a 1960s train conductor in Eastern Europe. Looks aside, it's not comfortable. It gets very hot, your hair looks ridiculous, etc. The one thing about it though is if you have a bad hair day, you can just put your cap on and nobody will know the difference :D
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:05 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
CARST wrote:
barney captain wrote:
WN got rid of mandatory hats over a decade ago and it was a very happy day indeed. Some still choose to wear them (and that's fine) but they are unbearably hot and you end up looking like hell with a a sweat-soaked head. Doing a pre-flight in the summer, it felt like you were wearing a shower cap - they were lined with plastic and didn't breathe.

Good riddance.

Hats? Virgin America pilots don't even wear ties -


Image


The grey shirts, no ties, no hats, they don't look like pilots. It doesn't make them for me less an authority, but the look is just wrong.

Breaking out of accepted standards has always been the trend of showing you are young, modern and unadapted. But it was always the wrong way. It's the way old people (who run the airline) think young people want a product or company to look like. But young as old like pilots old-fashioned. If someone would make a marketing study of it, I would bet that would be the result. What young people want is go cheap from A to B, they are less aligned to a brand, they want free wifi and a great IFE/PTV product or just streaming with USB power sockets. But this is just old peoples marketing for the "target group".

I have to agree they do not look like pilots. In fact, they look like circa 1990 shopping mall security.

Skip the ties.
I'm sorry, but if a group wants to be paid premium salaries, 'dress for success.' Level dressing is fine, if you don't mind your pay leveled...

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lucce
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:10 pm

Its just a choice among other when designing the uniform. I personally like them but understand that they are in no way neccessary in conveying a professional image.

I'd argue that KLM crew are one of the easiest to identify in case of an emergency due to their distinctive uniform color and prominent uniform stripes. The same can't be said for many American carriers where the uniforms have nothing unifrom about them (any color imaginable, endless assortment of unifrom parts, no stripes/other unifrom symbols).Grabbing your hat is probably not a priority in case of an evacuation for pilots anyway.
 
CanesFan
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:14 pm

Vio wrote:
I'm just curious: Out of all the posts here, how many of those "pro hat" are actually airline pilots that have to wear it? I personally don't like wearing the hat. I don't think it looks good, makes me look like a 1960s train conductor in Eastern Europe. Looks aside, it's not comfortable. It gets very hot, your hair looks ridiculous, etc. The one thing about it though is if you have a bad hair day, you can just put your cap on and nobody will know the difference :D


Hats are optional at my airline. If I had to guess, I would say 40% of the pilots, including myself, choose to wear it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:15 pm

Vio wrote:
I'm just curious: Out of all the posts here, how many of those "pro hat" are actually airline pilots that have to wear it? I personally don't like wearing the hat. I don't think it looks good, makes me look like a 1960s train conductor in Eastern Europe. Looks aside, it's not comfortable. It gets very hot, your hair looks ridiculous, etc. The one thing about it though is if you have a bad hair day, you can just put your cap on and nobody will know the difference :D

I'm not a pilot, but I've worn hats before as part of a uniform. At first I complained, then I noticed the brim kept me from squinting, people listened to someone half their age with respect, and my approach adapted to the authority granted.

I wish I had a cap/uniform for work despite having great hair!

Caps benefit the younger (under 35) and older (greyed hair or thinning hair) projecting authority. Make them optional...

But the short sleeve uniform shirt looks wrong outside of island hopping.

Pilots complain about less respect today. Well.. most don't look like they've earned that respect. The nautical officer uniform was copied as those uniforms evolved to generate respect. Pick what you want, you can't have everything...

Lightsaber
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787Driver
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:22 pm

N766UA wrote:
It’s just one more thing to carry around, anyway.


Agreed. It takes up a lot of space in the luggage when you’re traveling in civilian clothes. I never bring mine and I don’t like wearing it. Only a few of my colleagues actually wear it. Most pilots I know of don’t like wearing it
 
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Vio
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Pilots complain about less respect today. Well.. most don't look like they've earned that respect. The nautical officer uniform was copied as those uniforms evolved to generate respect. Pick what you want, you can't have everything...Lightsaber


Oh come on. Don't bring "Respect" into this. That word has no meaning for us anymore. "Respect" has long been gone, starting with passengers that think $69 fares from LA to NY is appropriate, or the "McPay" some pilots receive. If you think a "hat" will bring me respect, no thanks. Sell it and give me $19.99 you paid for it. I can buy an overpriced airport sandwich in between my flights.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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Vio
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:28 pm

CanesFan wrote:
Hats are optional at my airline. If I had to guess, I would say 40% of the pilots, including myself, choose to wear it.


They are not optional at my airline. We have to wear it. Maybe one day they'll get rid of them. None the less, I don't hate wearing it, but I can't say I would wear it if I had the option NOT to wear it.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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Classa64
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:35 pm

So what if you want to wear one even though the airline says no....?
Headline Rears.... " Pilot arrested for creating confusion while wearing illegal head-ware" ....Really!
I would like to see it up to the pilots on an individual basis.
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robsaw
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:03 pm

chiki wrote:
As a frequent flier i think thats unacceptable, we need our pilots with their caps, its just give the passengers a degree of confirdence
1. Do you want your president to address the nation in tee-shirts and jeans, or your lawyer to come to court in t-shirt and jeans


Fine by me. My church pastor frequently wears jeans when preaching - it is the message and the way it is presented that lends confidence not his clothes.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:17 pm

This is a prohibition.
It is not talked over with the KLM pilots.

This is purely done to make a low-cost carrier of KLM is the future, like Transavia. This is one of the things to get the pilots used to going that route.

With the greatly increase of violence on board and at airports, making pilots look more like everyone else is a stupid idea.

After 98 years this one-sided prohibition is a disgrace.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:27 pm

The title of this topic shoud be:

KLM pilots forced to take their caps off
 
tonystan
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:41 pm

eidvm wrote:
Add to that a very easy way to identify crew in the event of an evacuation, and adds an air of authority in survival situations. A short sighted move getting rid of the pilot hats.


The last thing a pilot will be doing is rummaging around looking for their hat in an emergency.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:32 pm

smi0006 wrote:
Interesting, a lot of full service airlines are going more upscale with their uniforms.

We’ve seen a return of cabin crew hats in the last decade- NZ, QF, AZ, BA, DL, QR,EY, etc. so I’m not sure I agree with KLM this is a trend, admittedly tech crew uniforms are changed far less frequently I think they are going out solo on this on. Maybe just the option leave it up to the individual?

I do like the new white QF hats- looks sharp to me.


The last 3/4 NZ cabin crew uniforms have had hats. Looking at photos on the google it appears that every NZ uniform has had an optional hat.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:37 pm

barney captain wrote:

Hats? Virgin America pilots don't even wear ties -


Image


They look sloppy and unprofessional, they might as well be a wearing a wife beater, shorts and flip flops!
 
Prost
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:18 pm

Funny story: A friend of mine who is a Delta pilot got stopped by the chief pilot because he wasn’t wearing his hat. The chief pilot asked him where his hat was, giving him the benefit of the doubt that he may have left it on the plane, home, or hotel. My friend responded honestly ‘It’s in my suitcase.’ The chief pilot asked him why he wasn’t wearing it. My friend, again being honest answered ‘It’s too small.’ Of course, the chief pilot responded ‘You need to order a larger hat. My friend responded ‘But then it wouldn’t fit in my suitcase!

Yes, he did get a letter in his file.
 
flyguy89
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:28 pm

I don't really care to debate whether a hate conveys "respect" or "authority," but IMHO, with the rest of the uniform it looks classy and stands out in a good way and will be sorry to see them go.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:20 pm

Vio wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Pilots complain about less respect today. Well.. most don't look like they've earned that respect. The nautical officer uniform was copied as those uniforms evolved to generate respect. Pick what you want, you can't have everything...Lightsaber


Oh come on. Don't bring "Respect" into this. That word has no meaning for us anymore. "Respect" has long been gone, starting with passengers that think $69 fares from LA to NY is appropriate, or the "McPay" some pilots receive. If you think a "hat" will bring me respect, no thanks. Sell it and give me $19.99 you paid for it. I can buy an overpriced airport sandwich in between my flights.

You think it will be better?

Do you know what leveling is? Pilots will find out if the stop being visually identified. But hey, I said make it optional.

Out of curiosity, why does your avatar have the cap if you dislike it so?

Heck, I just watched a FedEx delivery dude get more respect than he would out of uniform.

To others, yes, leadership is presence for people who know you. It is like those VS pilots' uniforms.

Would you want your doctor treating you without a suit or white coat?

Read a little history on why the cap was introduced to give pilots respect. I personally believe pilots will regret getting rid of it and leveling themselves.

Lightsaber
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
But hey, I said make it optional.


Though I am in favor of keeping the cap, it being optional kind of beats the "uniform" part of the uniform
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325i
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:18 pm

If the cap fits ,wear It!
"do you want to see your president wearing jeans and t shirt", now that would be a sight to behold.
Cheers
 
BravoOne
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:48 pm

Gotta give credit where credit is do. Those Dutch were the 1st if, if not close to the 1st, to legalize MJ. What could be more progressive than not where a uniform hat? Brilliant:)
 
Bald1983
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:35 am

I recall a story that in ancient times, when primitive man flew on 707's, a Continental flight engineer had to use the facilities. He left the cockpit with out his uniform coat, forgetting that Robert F. Six was on board. He let the flight engineer have it and then, had an unpleasant chat with the rest of the flight deck.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:58 am

Why not make the hat optional instead of getting rid of it altogether? I might be a bit old fashioned, but I like tradition, symbolism and so on.
 
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atypical
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:31 am

The part of a pilot's uniform that to me always screamed tacky was the short sleeved dress shirt. I can't recall any other profession using them. I shouldn't complain, the industry has steered clear of the wife beater dress shirt so far.
 
global1
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:36 am

Delta airmen usually look a notch above with their hats and double breasted suits.
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:47 am

The hat is “compulsory” at my airline, but most people hate it. We only ever wear it if the captain insists on it, maybe ¼ of the time.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
76er
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:59 am

lightsaber wrote:


But the short sleeve uniform shirt looks wrong outside of island hopping.


I always thought long sleeve shits presented a possible safety hazard with the risk of getting caught onto someting while moving aroud in the cockpit. The MD11 inadvertent slat extension events come to mind. (Yes, the design flaw was fixed by MDD, but still..)



BREECH wrote:
AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
Besides, the aim is to give pilots a more modern and accessible appearance.

That being Holland, I can't help asking, what they mean by "more accessible"? Either KLM has very bad translators or they REALLY didn't think this press release through. They mention men and women pilots and then the fact that they will become "more accessible". Hmmm... :stirthepot:



It's a translation thing. If you put the dutch word 'toegangelijk' through Translate, it will only show 'accessable' as a result. However, if you do it the other way around and start with the correct english word 'approachable', you get 'toegankelijk'. Aaahhh... language.. :)



About the hat, always cursed the darn thing. Uncomfortable, messes up my hairdo but above all makes me look like an complete and utter idiot. As far as being recognizable during an evac, that's why pax and crew wear different color lifevests and crew also have hi-viz vests available for evacs on terra firma.

And that double breasted uniform, did anyone forget to tell DL that the '90 are, well, the '90..
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:08 am

johns624 wrote:
eidvm wrote:
Add to that a very easy way to identify crew in the event of an evacuation, and adds an air of authority in survival situations. A short sighted move getting rid of the pilot hats.
I doubt if crew would bother putting their hats on in an evacuation situation.[/quote

I really don't see the point of you're remark. No crew member in a evacuation I going think"oh let's make sure I have my cap on"
Flying blue only if possible
 
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Blimpie
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:44 pm

Today the hat, ten years from now, it will be the shirt. I can see the day pilots are wearing polo shirts and Dockers, all in the name of cost savings.
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
CX747
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:02 pm

Put me down as wanting a cap. It is a uniform and shows who you are and your postion. If you want to be "accessible" then maybe we can stand you in line with everyone else going through the security check. Why do you need a "crew line"? Seems that separates you from everyone else.....are you important to the flight of the aircraft or something?

Same thing with some small town cops ditching a hat for a ball cap. Don't get mad when people treat you like a "bro" when you look like one.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
e38
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:33 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37), "Damn, who's that on the right? ........they should put him in their promotional material!"

Your comment has nothing to do with the subject concerning pilots wearing hats and is totally inappropriate for an aviation forum.

e38
 
Speedalive
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:40 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
Speedalive wrote:
If they’re going to get rid of hats, at least give them something cool like leather jackets à la Westjet


I’ve always liked the jackets! I’m not too sad about the hats, WestJet’s current uniforms look good without a hat, especially the fun airplane tie!

Apparently they discontinued the jackets recently :/ I agree the uniform looks good, but I still think the hat is iconic and should stay, at least at the Airlines who’ve had their pilots wear them throughout history. WS never had them in the first place.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Speedalive wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Speedalive wrote:
If they’re going to get rid of hats, at least give them something cool like leather jackets à la Westjet


I’ve always liked the jackets! I’m not too sad about the hats, WestJet’s current uniforms look good without a hat, especially the fun airplane tie!

Apparently they discontinued the jackets recently :/ I agree the uniform looks good, but I still think the hat is iconic and should stay, at least at the Airlines who’ve had their pilots wear them throughout history. WS never had them in the first place.


I didn’t know that but explains why I haven’t seen them wearing the jackets. I liked the leather jackets. I was also sad to see them go when US Airways uniforms were retired after their merger.
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e38
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:48 pm

Quoting Prost (reply 81), "Funny story: A friend of mine who is a Delta pilot . . ."

Prost, something tells me your "friend" has no problem accepting the salary Delta pays him yet is not willing to follow company policy concerning wear of the uniform. Ironic, isn't it? I know quite a few folks like that. It's called, "it's all about ME."

Perhaps he would be better "suited" working for a different company!

e38
 
DDR
Posts: 1732
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:29 pm

e38 wrote:
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37), "Damn, who's that on the right? ........they should put him in their promotional material!"

Your comment has nothing to do with the subject concerning pilots wearing hats and is totally inappropriate for an aviation forum.

e38


And YOU are not the internet police. If you do not like a post, then just ignore the post. Thank God you are not a moderator.
 
johns624
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: KLM pilots will take their caps off

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:50 am

My brother flies for DL and says the hats are known as hubcaps because that's the only place they're worn because management might see them without. If people get this upset about a hat, what about airlines that let their pilots wear leather flying jackets?

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