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Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:53 am
by boefan
A Qatar Airways Airbus A321 In-flight Entertainment (IFE) Satellite Antenna caught fire during maintenance, according to Qatari Authorities. "The aircraft was parked at a remote stand at Hamad International Airport. Fire inside cabin was promptly contained and extinguished."

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https://www.facebook.com/RunwayNewsline ... 8992682842

The aircraft is a write off

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:23 pm
by LoganTheBogan
Well they have to make room for the NEOs somehow

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:27 pm
by Siren
Is it possible to repair that sort of damage? In theory, I think it is. I remember the ET 787 that burned due to the ELT wiring fault, which was repaired. Yes, I know, carbon barrel vs aluminum, but I would expect the aluminum to be much easier than what Boeing went through. The entire fuselage barrel doesn't need to be replaced, right? It's very clear that the entire frame wasn't subjected to fire and high heat - just the crown and top surfaces. The cabin is still intact. Depending on the age of the frame, is there any chance it might be economically feasible to rebuild it?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:33 pm
by chrisnh
Siren wrote:
Is it possible to repair that sort of damage? In theory, I think it is?


In looking at the exterior photos I’d have agreed (“it’ll buff right out!”) but that photo of the interior suggests otherwise.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 pm
by andymartin
Could that have happened in the air, or was it caused by something going wrong during maintainence??

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 pm
by smi0006
God if I was QR management is be livid how those photos got out...

Hopefully as mentioned nothing that could happen in the air. The amount of water they used won’t help repair case either. Is this their first hull loss?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:40 pm
by CFM565A1
andymartin wrote:
Could that have happened in the air, or was it caused by something going wrong during maintainence??


Can’t know for sure yet. Here’s my experience with computers or electronics... when I used a computer it worked fine but when I tired to mod it, I cooked it! :white:

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:45 pm
by amax1977
Someone left Samsung Note 7 onboard :duck:

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:51 pm
by Newbiepilot
andymartin wrote:
Could that have happened in the air, or was it caused by something going wrong during maintainence??


Maintenance could have been doing something, but I am concerned with how much interior damage there is. The cabin materials used in seats, carpets, insulation, etc is supposed to be treated not to burn. The interior pictures show way more damage that I would have expected from a satcom antenna fire.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:52 pm
by 9VSMF
Is this A7-ADV or A7-AIB?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:55 pm
by 9VSMF
smi0006 wrote:
Is this their first hull loss?


One of their A300s (A7-ABV) was also written off in a fire at AUH in 2007.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:07 pm
by RalXWB
Destroyed by fire? The title is a bit misleading...

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:07 pm
by cathay747
With that amount of damage, it's GOT to be a write-off. Damn.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:10 pm
by OA940
RalXWB wrote:
Destroyed by fire? The title is a bit misleading...


But it was destroyed by fire. What's misleading?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:11 pm
by dbo861
RalXWB wrote:
Destroyed by fire? The title is a bit misleading...

Well...it’s definitely never going to fly again. Sure the engines several parts are probably recoverable, but I don’t think it’s too misleading to say this aircraft was destroyed.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:22 pm
by Flightsimboy
RalXWB wrote:
Destroyed by fire? The title is a bit misleading...


True. Interior destroyed by fire is more of what it looks like. The China Airlines 737 that burned out at Naha airport is more like a destroyed by fire.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:23 pm
by Aesma
I'm sure if you wanted to repair it you could, and it might even make sense economically. However for an airline that whines about minute details, I guess they don't want an oddball aircraft in their fleet, and they'd rather write it off, reduce their tax liability and replace the aircraft by a better one.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:29 pm
by MalevTU134
Aesma wrote:
I'm sure if you wanted to repair it you could, and it might even make sense economically. However for an airline that whines about minute details, I guess they don't want an oddball aircraft in their fleet, and they'd rather write it off, reduce their tax liability and replace the aircraft by a better one.

Tax liability? You do know that they are based in Qatar, right? No taxes there...

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:30 pm
by B777LRF
Hold on guys. It's a bit crispy around the edges, granted, and there's a fair bit of sheetmetal work to be done before a new IFE antenna can be fitted. But the interior is carpets, side-panels and chairs - hardly the most expensive or difficult parts to replace. Air it out for a while, stuff some Wunderbaum's behind the panels and she's good to go in a few weeks time.

PS
I do love statements along the lines of 'it's definitely never going to fly again', 'it's GOT to be a write-off' or 'the aircraft is a write off'. All made by people who've seen nothing but a couple of pictures and has absolutely zero experience assessing damage to aircraft. Yet, somehow that makes them instant experts.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:35 pm
by Siren
dbo861 wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
Destroyed by fire? The title is a bit misleading...

Well...it’s definitely never going to fly again. Sure the engines several parts are probably recoverable, but I don’t think it’s too misleading to say this aircraft was destroyed.


Remember the Ethiopian 787-8 that caught fire back in 2013, due to faulty ELT wiring? The general consensus on the board was that it would never fly again. Boeing repaired it. Same thing with the BA 77E at LAS that blew its GE90 in 2015.. I'm just saying, it is a little too early to jump to conclusions regarding the frame's future.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 pm
by Heavierthanair
G'day

With the front including the cockpit, the wings and the tailplane left undamaged there is enough undamaged airplane left to turn this into an A 319 :duck:

Cheers

Peter

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:55 pm
by Tedd
I`d speculate it is repairable, & that Qatar will go ahead & do it.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:56 pm
by scbriml
9VSMF wrote:
Is this A7-ADV or A7-AIB?


ATDB says it's A7-AIB c/n 4382.

B777LRF wrote:
Hold on guys. It's a bit crispy around the edges, granted, and there's a fair bit of sheetmetal work to be done before a new IFE antenna can be fitted. But the interior is carpets, side-panels and chairs - hardly the most expensive or difficult parts to replace. Air it out for a while, stuff some Wunderbaum's behind the panels and she's good to go in a few weeks time.


The damage looks to be pretty substantial, with the fuselage clearly burned through. While it could likely be repaired, I'd be surprised if it's economical to do so.

Siren wrote:
Remember the Ethiopian 787-8 that caught fire back in 2013, due to faulty ELT wiring? The general consensus on the board was that it would never fly again.


The damage to the 787 was quite superficial compared to this A321. Out of interest, I flew on ET-AOP after it was repaired.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:05 pm
by Channex757
The most helpful factor is going to be it happened at DOH so QR doesn't need to ship people and machinery to a remote location. That cuts repair costs straightaway.

Negatives are going to be procuring an out of sequence interior, although with the QR cancellations at Airbus even that could be less of an issue. The only showstopper I see is going to be electrical damage. If that's not too severe then the fact that the aircraft's tail is not on the ground means it is still intact enough for some qualified Airbus metalworkers to re-skin.

I would not write this off as the wings, engines, all landing gear, fuel tanks and cockpit are intact.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:07 pm
by Polot
scbriml wrote:
The damage looks to be pretty substantial, with the fuselage clearly burned through. While it could likely be repaired, I'd be surprised if it's economical to do so.

Multiple spots too, both in front and behind the wing.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:14 pm
by KarelXWB

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:21 pm
by smi0006
If it is repairable, would QR want to? They are incredibly protective of their brand, now the photos are out of the damage they may not want it flying again and people becoming aware of this incident. Brand damage is hard to quantify.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:25 pm
by AAEK192
I believe QR will decide to write the aircraft off just as Emirates did with A6-EMW involved on EK521 , basically due to de blockade in the Middle East..And also due to the level of destruction of the cabin and the fuselage

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:26 pm
by vhtje
B777LRF wrote:
I do love statements along the lines of 'it's definitely never going to fly again', 'it's GOT to be a write-off' or 'the aircraft is a write off'. All made by people who've seen nothing but a couple of pictures and has absolutely zero experience assessing damage to aircraft. Yet, somehow that makes them instant experts.


I kinda agree with you - one of the problems with this forum over recent years has been the marked degradation on the quality of comment and conversation, with too many amateur 'experts' asserting 'facts' with little real industry knowledge, and a corresponding decrease in contributions from real aviation industry scions.

On the other hand that is an awfully large hole in fuselage. But is it a write off? Who knows. Certainly not me. Plenty (on this forum!) said G-VIIO/BA 2276 was a "definite write-off" and yet 'VIIO is gracing the skies, and doing sterling service flying for BA - she is currently in Cancun, I believe.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:29 pm
by Balerit
Channex757 wrote:
The most helpful factor is going to be it happened at DOH so QR doesn't need to ship people and machinery to a remote location. That cuts repair costs straightaway.

Negatives are going to be procuring an out of sequence interior, although with the QR cancellations at Airbus even that could be less of an issue. The only showstopper I see is going to be electrical damage. If that's not too severe then the fact that the aircraft's tail is not on the ground means it is still intact enough for some qualified Airbus metalworkers to re-skin.

I would not write this off as the wings, engines, all landing gear, fuel tanks and cockpit are intact.


I would hazard a guess that this will be scrapped, it's not only the skin but also all those frames and stringers that will have to be replaced, but obviously it depends on the insurance company.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:37 pm
by scbriml
KarelXWB wrote:


Wow, that looks much worse than the earlier photos. Can't see that flying again.

AAEK192 wrote:
I believe QR will decide to write the aircraft off just as Emirates did with A6-EMW involved on EK521


You say that as though EK had a choice: :crazy:
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vhtje wrote:
On the other hand there are several awfully large holes in fuselage. But is it a write off?
:

Fixed that for you and yes, I believe that's beyond economic repair.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:53 pm
by neomax
I'm no expert, but I think this is a writeoff. This is not some small cockpit fire, this is the entirety of the airplane's cabin destroyed. G-VIIO was in better shape because the engines can easily be replaced and the cabin was untouched. Besides a replacement of some lower fuselage panels near the engine, G-VIIO had nowhere near enough damage to warrant a writeoff. Here, you're looking at a completely new cabin, avionics, and electronics at a MINIMUM. G-VIIO didn't need any of that, I think it's ridiculous to even compare the two.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:59 pm
by prebennorholm
Repairable or not, that's impossible for we armchair aviators to guess.

Some people are talking about what we can see. Burned through roof, destroyed interior, panels, carpets and such. But believe me, these are the minor things.

Has the center wing box become weakened by heat exposure? What about the wing main spars where connected to the wing box?

All cabling and controls have of course been destroyed in the affected area. Hydraulic tubing has been weakened by heat.

What about the seemingly undamaged parts of the fuselage? Especially the rest of the pressurized hull. What heat has it been exposed to?

We don't know. Maybe nobody knows? What do we do with structures, which nobody knows if they have been weakened by heat? We test them. We break them to see if they were up to specs or they were too weak.

In any case, if repaired, then this will be a much more substantial job than most of us imagine. What damage we can't see on these pictures could be ten times more serious than what we see.

I am not going to guess about repair or not. Mainly because my guess would be exactly as uninteresting to read as all previous guesses on this thread.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:16 pm
by Dutchy
Those are some nasty burn marks on her back and a mess inside.

A7-AIB is 7,4y/o. Curious to see it in the sky again, but I can see this as a write-off. Let the bean counters figure that one out.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:20 pm
by DL757NYC
smi0006 wrote:
God if I was QR management is be livid how those photos got out...

Hopefully as mentioned nothing that could happen in the air. The amount of water they used won’t help repair case either. Is this their first hull loss?



99% of the time photos come from other airport employees. I remember a plane burning slightly here in the US and the airport pd took the photos

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:23 pm
by JetBuddy
It's probably technically possible to repair it, but the question is if it's worth doing or not. There's a lot of scrap value in that aircraft. The engines, the APU, the avionics, the flight deck, the gear, the wings..

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:25 pm
by cougar15
[quote="Dutchy"]Those are some nasty burn marks on her back and a mess inside.

A7-AIB is 7,4y/o. Curious to see it in the sky again, but I can see this as a write-off. Let the bean counters figure that one out.[/quote]

yup, sadly....

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:36 pm
by Francoflier
Of course it's a write off... the firemen ruined the carpets.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:40 pm
by flee
Would this not be a subject for an insurance claim? If so, the insurance company would have some input on whether it is a write off or not, wouldn't it?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:43 pm
by PatrickZ80
JetBuddy wrote:
It's probably technically possible to repair it, but the question is if it's worth doing or not. There's a lot of scrap value in that aircraft. The engines, the APU, the avionics, the flight deck, the gear, the wings..


I agree with that. Repair would cost a lot of money, scrapping it could still get some money out of it. And at least then parts of this aircraft would fly again.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:44 pm
by PatrickZ80
flee wrote:
Would this not be a subject for an insurance claim? If so, the insurance company would have some input on whether it is a write off or not, wouldn't it?


I doubt if the aircraft was insured. As far as I know, most aircraft aren't.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:48 pm
by IPFreely
chrisnh wrote:
In looking at the exterior photos I’d have agreed (“it’ll buff right out!”) but that photo of the interior suggests otherwise.


I'm not sure about it buffing right out. I was going to go with "My dad is a tv repair man, he's got this ultimate set of tools, I can fix it."

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:15 pm
by Spacepope
PatrickZ80 wrote:
flee wrote:
Would this not be a subject for an insurance claim? If so, the insurance company would have some input on whether it is a write off or not, wouldn't it?


I doubt if the aircraft was insured. As far as I know, most aircraft aren't.


It's my understanding that the reality is the exact opposite. Insurance is standard, including with leased aircraft.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:15 pm
by Siren
scbriml wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


Wow, that looks much worse than the earlier photos. Can't see that flying again.

, I believe that's beyond economic repair.


Yeah, this shows much more damage than the initial photos did. I'm pretty confident that the frame will be a write off, upon seeing that photo. If they were to repair (which would be theoretically possible), they would need to essentially replace half the fuselage barrel for the entire length of the fuselage. I've never heard of such a repair before...

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:16 pm
by RalXWB
Ever since they repaired that old BA 777 at LAS...everything is possible.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:20 pm
by ikolkyo
RalXWB wrote:
Ever since they repaired that old BA 777 at LAS...everything is possible.


This is a whole different beast. That’s BA 777’s damage was centered in the middle fuselage barrel section. This damage stretches across the whole frame, it’s doable but will be very expensive.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:26 pm
by Siren
neomax wrote:
Here, you're looking at a completely new cabin, avionics, and electronics at a MINIMUM.


New avionics and electronics? I'm assuming the flight deck wasn't touched by this event, and the avionics bay sits beneath the flight deck.. Are we talking about new cabin electrics and IFE? That's a given. I would guess the data feeds for the CVR and FDR run through that area, plus the satellite receivers/transmitters if the plane is so equipped... what else would be required in the electronics department, that lives up in the crown of the fuselage?

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:31 pm
by lightsaber
scbriml wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


Wow, that looks much worse than the earlier photos. Can't see that flying again.

AAEK192 wrote:
I believe QR will decide to write the aircraft off just as Emirates did with A6-EMW involved on EK521


You say that as though EK had a choice: :crazy:
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vhtje wrote:
On the other hand there are several awfully large holes in fuselage. But is it a write off?
:

Fixed that for you and yes, I believe that's beyond economic repair.

Wow... An analysis will have to be done. Perhaps rebuild and sell... But at this point, I would suspect with today's faster depreciation, it could be a write off. But if insured, QR doesn't make the decision...

Lightsaber

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:52 pm
by Spacepope
Siren wrote:
neomax wrote:
Here, you're looking at a completely new cabin, avionics, and electronics at a MINIMUM.


New avionics and electronics? I'm assuming the flight deck wasn't touched by this event, and the avionics bay sits beneath the flight deck.. Are we talking about new cabin electrics and IFE? That's a given. I would guess the data feeds for the CVR and FDR run through that area, plus the satellite receivers/transmitters if the plane is so equipped... what else would be required in the electronics department, that lives up in the crown of the fuselage?


You also can't discount water damage from extinguishing the fire, so things at the bottom of the fuselage might be affected too. Just looking at the fuselage penetrations through both skin and structure, I'm not sure we've seen an NB repaired after such substantial damage. Especially a "previous generation" one.

Re: Qatar A321 destroyed by fire at DOH

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:08 pm
by kmz
Makes me nervous to see how the fire spread....could that happen in flight? Flam characteristics of some part seems to be not per spec....