Cory6188
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DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:15 pm

I noticed that EWR-AMS on DL is no longer on the schedule after the end of March 2018. Anyone have any insight as to why?

Obviously, UA is a tough one to go up against at EWR, but DL is still keeping EWR-CDG as part of the KL/AF JV, so I thought it was odd that they are only killing EWR-AMS.

I know that loads and yield are two separate things, but it's always been full every time I've flown it, and the pricing always tends to be the same as any itineraries leaving from JFK-AMS-XXX, so I'd be surprised if yield was a major factor.
 
iflyalexair
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:40 pm

The JV added another JFK frequency to compensate. I guess they determined they have enough TATL coverage with just CDG from EWR.
 
flydude380
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:37 pm

I had a feeling this would come to an end...
 
Lufthansa
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:37 pm

Has KL added any frequencies? I'm assuming they still fly this route?
 
777klm
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:51 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
Has KL added any frequencies? I'm assuming they still fly this route?

Not to EWR. AMS-EWR will no longer be served by DL or KL (and the JV in general).
The JV has added a AMS-JFK frequency, totaling 5 flights/day of which 2 flights are operated by DL and 3 flights are operated by KL.

A nice combination of equipment too:
763 (DL)
333 (DL)
772 (KL)
789 (KL)
744 (KL) - initially, as 744's will phase-out 789 will take over
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
Delta757MD88
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:55 pm

KL does not fly to EWR
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
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STT757
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:57 pm

Delta757MD88 wrote:
KL does not fly to EWR


They used to, it was taken over by NWA and then DL. Back when NWA was flying EWR-AMS the flight was handling lots of connecting traffic from India. With UA's nonstops to DEL and BOM and AI's flights to DEL, BOM and AMD from EWR perhaps the DL EWR-AMS route was no longer competitive.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:19 pm

I always thought that they would have 9W fly AMS-EWR as part of their partnership given that EWR is probably the biggest O&D market to India. That said, I hope DL has one of their flights on the AMS-JFK route fly in the afternoon.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:19 pm

IMO, if 9W is interested in returning to the USA, it should be handed this frequency. Remember that a few years ago, 9W took over DL's AMS-BOM service, and DL is looking to buy a stake in 9W...I wouldn't be surprised if they buy Etihad's stake.
 
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tlecam
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:53 pm

Interesting. I wonder what the numbers really look like when they look at the JV flights from AMS to NYC and then break out JFK and EWR.

I would have guessed EWR was viable.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
FSDan
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:36 pm

I believe this was discussed back when the new IND-CDG flight was announced. With DL adding several new long haul flights on 767-300ERs next summer (IND-CDG, MCO-AMS, ATL-LIS) and also retiring a few frames, there's not really any slack in the fleet. An addition in one place requires a subtraction elsewhere.
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Cory6188
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:02 pm

tlecam wrote:
Interesting. I wonder what the numbers really look like when they look at the JV flights from AMS to NYC and then break out JFK and EWR.

I would have guessed EWR was viable.


I would've thought so too, so hence my surprise.

I am sure that DL's route planning team did their homework, but out of 5 flights a day from NYC-AMS, I'd think that there would be enough demand from EWR-originating traffic that they'd want to keep the one flight at EWR. Not to go down the whole JFK vs. EWR path, but it is a royal headache to get to JFK if you're in NJ/west of the Hudson, and vice-versa if you're closer to JFK. I'd have to imagine they'll lose some traffic to UA (or PHL, for that matter) for European travel, but I'm sure they took that into account versus wherever else they're deploying the 763 they were using on the route.

Furthermore, it's also interesting that they felt that EWR-CDG was worthwhile enough to keep - I wonder what the difference there was. It's not like having the AMS flight required that many more on the ground resources at EWR; it's a small station for DL but it already has DL mainline staff, a SkyClub, etc., so it's not like they had a ton of extra resources allocated to EWR that were otherwise not needed as a result of the AMS flight.
 
Flighty
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:31 pm

CDG is more of a destination while AMS is more of a transfer point. (65/35 in each direction I assume) I think their success and failure are more or less unrelated to each other.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:39 pm

Flighty wrote:
CDG is more of a destination while AMS is more of a transfer point. (65/35 in each direction I assume) I think their success and failure are more or less unrelated to each other.


Best post on this thread
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:48 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Flighty wrote:
CDG is more of a destination while AMS is more of a transfer point. (65/35 in each direction I assume) I think their success and failure are more or less unrelated to each other.


Best post on this thread


May be unrelated, but the existence of CDG probably played a role in the decision making process; that is, probably makes sense to route what connection traffic that DL and the JV wants to keep from the AMS route to go over CDG (from EWR) or from JFK.
 
factsonly
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:37 pm

The cancellation of EWR-AMS may possibly have to do with the need for DL to optimize its AMS slots use in view of its 2x new USA-AMS routes:

- MCO-AMS
- LAX-AMS

As slots at AMS are restricted in 2018/2019 the Joint Venture AF/DL/KL will look for the greatest return per available DL slot.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:53 pm

factsonly wrote:
The cancellation of EWR-AMS may possibly have to do with the need for DL to optimize its AMS slots use in view of its 2x new USA-AMS routes:

- MCO-AMS
- LAX-AMS

As slots at AMS are restricted in 2018/2019 the Joint Venture AF/DL/KL will look for the greatest return per available DL slot.

Just my 2 cents.

I concur. Restricted slots must be allocated by expected value.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
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adambrau
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Now that DL is vacating this route I hope that UA upgrades the equipment from 757 to a 767 version during the winter timetable. It is often impossible to buy a C Class ticket EWR to Amsterdam last minute on UA with the 757.
France is in the Air
 
Bricktop
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:20 pm

777klm wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
Has KL added any frequencies? I'm assuming they still fly this route?

Not to EWR. AMS-EWR will no longer be served by DL or KL (and the JV in general).
The JV has added a AMS-JFK frequency, totaling 5 flights/day of which 2 flights are operated by DL and 3 flights are operated by KL.

A nice combination of equipment too:
763 (DL)
333 (DL)
772 (KL)
789 (KL)
744 (KL) - initially, as 744's will phase-out 789 will take over


KL had 3x per day last summer KL639/641/643 also. IIRC, it was typically A330/B777/B747 respectively although not set in stone for the earlier flights.
 
FSDan
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:20 pm

Bricktop wrote:
777klm wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
Has KL added any frequencies? I'm assuming they still fly this route?

Not to EWR. AMS-EWR will no longer be served by DL or KL (and the JV in general).
The JV has added a AMS-JFK frequency, totaling 5 flights/day of which 2 flights are operated by DL and 3 flights are operated by KL.

A nice combination of equipment too:
763 (DL)
333 (DL)
772 (KL)
789 (KL)
744 (KL) - initially, as 744's will phase-out 789 will take over


KL had 3x per day last summer KL639/641/643 also. IIRC, it was typically A330/B777/B747 respectively although not set in stone for the earlier flights.


I'm pretty sure last summer had 2x daily DL (763 + 333) and 2x daily KL (mix of 789, 772, and 744). Perhaps different flight numbers and timings on different days?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Bricktop
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:41 pm

FSDan wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
777klm wrote:
Not to EWR. AMS-EWR will no longer be served by DL or KL (and the JV in general).
The JV has added a AMS-JFK frequency, totaling 5 flights/day of which 2 flights are operated by DL and 3 flights are operated by KL.

A nice combination of equipment too:
763 (DL)
333 (DL)
772 (KL)
789 (KL)
744 (KL) - initially, as 744's will phase-out 789 will take over


KL had 3x per day last summer KL639/641/643 also. IIRC, it was typically A330/B777/B747 respectively although not set in stone for the earlier flights.


I'm pretty sure last summer had 2x daily DL (763 + 333) and 2x daily KL (mix of 789, 772, and 744). Perhaps different flight numbers and timings on different days?

Dipshit me was referring to the summer of 2016 as last summer, not 2017. :oops: But even so, those 3 flight numbers were in use. Arrivals 639 was late morning/noonish (NY time), 641 mid-afternoon, and 643 evening. I don't recall if 639 was daily though. 641 and 643 were for sure.
 
NichCage
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:03 pm

EWR has very few SkyTeam airlines, other than Delta. Air France, KLM, and Alitalia don't serve EWR anymore.

JFK has basically most SkyTeam airlines, but it's far from an SkyTeam hub. DL has it's main base at T4 along with a few other SkyTeam airlines. AF, SV, MU, and a whole bunch of other airlines are in T1. There not together, and JFK simply isn't a good connecting hub for SkyTeam passengers it seems.
 
Jetty
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:50 pm

factsonly wrote:
The cancellation of EWR-AMS may possibly have to do with the need for DL to optimize its AMS slots use in view of its 2x new USA-AMS routes:

- MCO-AMS
- LAX-AMS

As slots at AMS are restricted in 2018/2019 the Joint Venture AF/DL/KL will look for the greatest return per available DL slot.

Just my 2 cents.

DL slots are exchangeable with KL slots as long as they have a KL code on it and vice versa. So in practice there's no such thing as a DL slot, as KL can give a slot to DL if that's profitable for the JV or the other way around.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:25 pm

NichCage wrote:
EWR has very few SkyTeam airlines, other than Delta. Air France, KLM, and Alitalia don't serve EWR anymore.

JFK has basically most SkyTeam airlines, but it's far from an SkyTeam hub. DL has it's main base at T4 along with a few other SkyTeam airlines. AF, SV, MU, and a whole bunch of other airlines are in T1. There not together, and JFK simply isn't a good connecting hub for SkyTeam passengers it seems.


Biggest issue is two SkyTeam partners are part of the 4-airline consortium that owns T1 (KE and AF, other two being LH and JL).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:27 am

If the decision to close the EWR-AMS route is not in fact related to equipment shortages connected with new long haul route launches (LAX, MCO to AMS on Delta aircraft), then this is surprising. The EWR-AMS route has been a fixture of the KL/NW and then DL JV/Alliance/SkyTeam network for a significant amount of time. Northwest operated the route with a DC10 and perhaps an A330 for a short time. KL operated it as well, on the 767-300ER. KL/DL move a lot of traffic through AMS so even with UA in the market, it stands to reason there is enough demand ex-EWR to warrant this flight. What IS surprising is that EWR-CDG remains, although one does have to wonder for how long. It's been a 757 during the winter months last year. There is La Compagnie and Open Skies (soon LEVEL), though chasing very different markets, still a lot of seats. Seems DL is now less interested in maintaining a sizable presence at EWR having handed over the LHR route to VS (metal neutral, I know) in 2015.
 
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precure787
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:24 am

It's likely they're re-assigning flights to JFK. Similarly, UA moved all JFK flights to EWR.
Edward Zen/Precure 787
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:36 am

precure787 wrote:
It's likely they're re-assigning flights to JFK. Similarly, UA moved all JFK flights to EWR.


United closed its JFK operation in 2015 and moved LAX/SFO "ps" service to EWR and consolidated it with their existing transcontinental services there. At the time, they had wanted to swap slots with Delta, meaning DL would get the 30 or so takeoff and landing slots at JFK in exchange for UA getting a significant (but not all) of DL's slots at EWR. The DOJ ruled against the slot swap, but UA closed down JFK regardless.

Delta, until recently, had and continues to maintain a sizable presence at EWR, with mainline to AMS, CDG, ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC and DL Connection to RDU, MSP, and CVG, with all departures from a single rotunda in Terminal B. While the DL/KL JV has upped JFK-AMS to 5 x per day in peak season, it doesn't mean DL is consolidating everything at JFK from EWR. I would guess that DL will continue to wind EWR down to the hubs, and turn CDG into a seasonal route, eventually.
 
gsg013
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:41 am

I sure hope DL will not shrink down at EWR. I grew up a CO flyer out of EWR being from about 15-20 min west from the airport. Once UA took over and we had to deal with it now for 5+ years I avoid UA at all costs. I know a lot of NJ flyers who would much prefer to fly DL and their codeshare partners rather than UA at EWR. I know the monster operation DL has at JFK and LGA but the EWR market is a completely different market caputure area with a lot of disgruntled passengers who are stuck with UA out of EWR.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:15 am

NichCage wrote:
JFK has basically most SkyTeam airlines, but it's far from an SkyTeam hub. DL has it's main base at T4 along with a few other SkyTeam airlines. AF, SV, MU, and a whole bunch of other airlines are in T1. There not together, and JFK simply isn't a good connecting hub for SkyTeam passengers it seems.

Nor does it need to be, as JFK is a high O&D operation, with (of course) some transfer. Similar to LAX.

But they could just as easily use DTW/ATL or AMS/CDG (depending on the type of flow) for 1stop cnnx, so no real need for the SkyTeam carriers to integrate locations like they otherwise would.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
vadodara
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:48 pm

STT757 wrote:
Delta757MD88 wrote:
KL does not fly to EWR


They used to, it was taken over by NWA and then DL. Back when NWA was flying EWR-AMS the flight was handling lots of connecting traffic from India. With UA's nonstops to DEL and BOM and AI's flights to DEL, BOM and AMD from EWR perhaps the DL EWR-AMS route was no longer competitive.


Or add the 1-stop EWR-ME-India options.

DL, perhaps, rightly concluded that it would be hard to compete with UA FF who have non-stop options to BOM/DEL or 1-stop options available. In addition, AMS connections to India are limited to 4 cities. Till those are expanded, these sort of routes will be marginal at best.
 
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varsity
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:16 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
NichCage wrote:
EWR has very few SkyTeam airlines, other than Delta. Air France, KLM, and Alitalia don't serve EWR anymore.

JFK has basically most SkyTeam airlines, but it's far from an SkyTeam hub. DL has it's main base at T4 along with a few other SkyTeam airlines. AF, SV, MU, and a whole bunch of other airlines are in T1. There not together, and JFK simply isn't a good connecting hub for SkyTeam passengers it seems.


Biggest issue is two SkyTeam partners are part of the 4-airline consortium that owns T1 (KE and AF, other two being LH and JL).


Wonder if--once T2 comes down, which it inevitably will--they will do something to connect T1 & T4, even if it is just to envelop the Airtrain station into the terminal as it is at T4.
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Cory6188
Topic Author
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Re: DL Canceling EWR-AMS

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:07 am

vadodara wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Delta757MD88 wrote:
KL does not fly to EWR


They used to, it was taken over by NWA and then DL. Back when NWA was flying EWR-AMS the flight was handling lots of connecting traffic from India. With UA's nonstops to DEL and BOM and AI's flights to DEL, BOM and AMD from EWR perhaps the DL EWR-AMS route was no longer competitive.


Or add the 1-stop EWR-ME-India options.

DL, perhaps, rightly concluded that it would be hard to compete with UA FF who have non-stop options to BOM/DEL or 1-stop options available. In addition, AMS connections to India are limited to 4 cities. Till those are expanded, these sort of routes will be marginal at best.


Well, maybe this was an indication of its demise, but I saw very few, if any, Indian pax on the EWR-AMS flight the various times I flew it - so perhaps that's an indicator right there. FWIW, though, it was still full every time - just not with Indian diaspora pax.

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