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intothinair
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Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 pm

Great news for the pilots:

http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/econom ... ion-annual


Cheers.
inrothinair
 
ninspeed
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:06 pm

Interesting to watch CX go through the same struggles as last time.... hopefully a lesson was learnt on both sides during the last negotiations...
 
B737900ER
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:39 pm

Where are they living on 15k per month?

Meanwhile cabin crew gets a 1% raise

And the poor oppressed pilots are still threatening to strike. Talk about entitlement culture with that work group.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:39 pm

Can't blame the senior pilots for trying to hang onto the golden goose as long as they can, though there's always the risk they'll choke it to death. They know they have a good thing that (the Middle East notwithstanding) basically doesn't exist anymore, and hopefully they realize that if they were at home flying for BA or Qantas they'd have gone through the wringer with everyone else.

Sure wish my employer would pay my rent.
 
mikejepp
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:41 pm

B737900ER wrote:
Where are they living on 15k per month?

Meanwhile cabin crew gets a 1% raise

And the poor oppressed pilots are still threatening to strike. Talk about entitlement culture with that work group.


Its not entitlement. It is expecting to be compensated in accordance with the contract that was negotiated.

If the company thinks they're paying too much, thats their fault. They shouldn't have signed on the dotted line. How is now the pilots' fault that they are expecting the company to hold up their end of the deal? I'm sure the company expects the same in aspects that benefit the company.
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:57 pm

This is very misleading, no pilot is receiving 15k a month. This is a expat housing allowance that goes to the from the company to the landlord, it does not go into the pilots pocket. The pilots however do pay the tax on the money paid to the landlord.

What is even more misleading is for the landlord to receive 15k, they would rave taken around 5k out of the pilots salary. There is an upper level, and after that upper level pilots are contributing from their salary.

Before you start trying to make comparisons, around 10k a month rent will get you around 1000 sq.ft in HKG. HKG is the most expensive city in the world to live in.

You need to realise expats tend to locate closer to international schools etc.

The article does not seem to say that captains are not going to be paid the normal “13th” month payment which is effectively a 8.5% pay cut.

Meanwhile office staff, checking staff, cabin crew, mechanics are all receiving a 1% pay rise, plus a “13th month” payment.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
JHwk
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:25 am

Zeke-- housing allowances are taxed now? It has been a long time, but I thought mine was an untaxed benefit along with a few other perks.
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:49 am

Yes the money is paid to the landlord but taxed as if it was given to you.

https://www.gov.hk/en/residents/taxes/s ... idence.htm
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
catiii
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:50 am

B737900ER wrote:
Where are they living on 15k per month?

Meanwhile cabin crew gets a 1% raise

And the poor oppressed pilots are still threatening to strike. Talk about entitlement culture with that work group.


Everyone at CX fills out the same application. Want pilot pay and benefits? Put pilot in the position you’re applying for.
 
Flighty
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:57 am

mikejepp wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Where are they living on 15k per month?

Meanwhile cabin crew gets a 1% raise

And the poor oppressed pilots are still threatening to strike. Talk about entitlement culture with that work group.


Its not entitlement. It is expecting to be compensated in accordance with the contract that was negotiated.

If the company thinks they're paying too much, thats their fault. They shouldn't have signed on the dotted line. How is now the pilots' fault that they are expecting the company to hold up their end of the deal? I'm sure the company expects the same in aspects that benefit the company.


The victim blaming is interesting, but not at all convincing. I've been there, done that with pilot unions at the beginning of my corporate career. There's no limit to the mental gymnastics they will do to create grievances, usually consisting of their own behavior (incompetent management agreed to my insane demands under duress!). You won't be fooling me with that.

There is no limit to what union members will do to justify earning 300% of market value. And nor should there be. My point is, it's not necessary to listen to their strategic communications. It's noise.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:59 am

Meanwhile some of the junior second officers are literally hot bunking and/or sleeping on campbeds because their paycheck/housing allowance is so....humble.

Housing costs in HK are ridiculous and none seems to be doing anything about it (well, other than using it as an opportunity for speculation).
First to fly the 787-9
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:34 am

zeke wrote:
Before you start trying to make comparisons, around 10k a month rent will get you around 1000 sq.ft in HKG. HKG is the most expensive city in the world to live in.


Unless one has a perverse need to rent in or around Central (and as a pilot you certainly don't), a 1000sqft apartment doesn't cost anywhere near 10k USD in rent, 1000sqft apartments very convenient to the airport in NT should be around ~$4k USD.
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:36 pm

Sorry to bust your bubble, but that is simply not true. For 5k (HK$40k) in Tung Chung you would be hard pressed to get a decent 2 bedroom apartment. Not the sort of place you could have 3 teenage children.

The current housing assistance levels were set around 15 years ago and are indexed to the offical Hong Kong Goverment Rating and Valuation Department published monthly index which is based upon actual property rental transactions every month.

Stamp duty is paid on every rental transaction in Hong Kong so the government knows the numbers. They have published the index since 1978. You can look on their website the numbers are there for everyone to see.

http://www.rvd.gov.hk/doc/en/statistics/his_data_12.xls

To put that another way, the “buying power” in the market today is the same as it was 15 years ago. That is simply a contractural element of the conditions of service.

People will live where there is access to international schools and other expat facilities.

That was the basis of their employment contracts when they started. Nothing additional has been asked by the Crew, just to preserve the contractural conditions they were employed under 10, 20, 30 years ago.

We did suggest that they could save money by basing people in their home countries or by a related party transaction with Swire properties, both have been rejected.

There is over 150 mainland Chinese immigrants to Hong Kong a day, without that much available property being constructed a day. Demand exceeds supply prices go up.

To get a child into prep or school in DB now it’s a 4 million dollar debenture for similar reasons.

While this is going on the managers are getting over US$40k month housing allowance, and other bonuses and allowances tuning into the tens of millions HKD. That is available in the annual reports.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
raylee67
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:05 pm

People are feeling that this allowance is an "entitlement" because this type of expat benefits are not around any more in other industries. Even Investment Banks don't do this any more, or they are only providing the benefits to the top Managing Directors. In the company I work for, all the expats got their housing allowance AND kids' education allowance cut this year. They were given a choice to return "home" within a few months (where they may or may not be re-assigned to local positions) or accept the condition of no-more-allowance. So for people who are not the pilots, I can understand why they do not have much sympathy with the pilots.

Practically, US$5k can get you decent housing in places close to the airport in Hong Kong, as long as you are not looking for luxurious new condos that are built for the "China-rich". At US$6k, you can get a 1500 sq ft 4-bedroom in Discovery Bay, where 60% of population is expat, is 30 min from the airport, and have International Schools around. Getting a kid educated in Hong Kong is expensive, but that is the same for everyone else, and that's a separate issue from "housing allowance".

CX obviously does not want disruptions to services. But honestly, this may not be financially sustainable. At this point, the company is healthy enough to continue. The pilots can say they are just asking CX to pay what they have agreed to, and I fully agree with that. But if at some point in future, the company simply does not have the money to pay for that any more, the pilots are still going to lose it. Of course, that is not today.

CX is far from the desperation that they need to resolve this now. So naturally, they would kick the can down the road. I would have done that if I am the management. I probably won't be around any more when it gets to the point that it really needs to unravel, so why do I risk everything (including myself) now? For me, there is no benefit at all. My boss won't say thank to me if I get it done (certainly would be messy).
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blandy62
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:06 pm

zeke wrote:
This is very misleading, no pilot is receiving 15k a month. This is a expat housing allowance that goes to the from the company to the landlord, it does not go into the pilots pocket. The pilots however do pay the tax on the money paid to the landlord.

.


when I was working in HK, that money my company was paying to the landlord could be deducted from my income tax and was not taxable as far as I can recall. So why do expat pilot need to pay tax on this?
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:23 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Practically, US$5k can get you decent housing in places close to the airport in Hong Kong, as long as you are not looking for luxurious new condos that are built for the "China-rich". At US$6k, you can get a 1500 sq ft 4-bedroom in Discovery Bay, where 60% of population is expat, is 30 min from the airport, and have International Schools around. Getting a kid educated in Hong Kong is expensive, but that is the same for everyone else, and that's a separate issue from "housing allowance".


DB is definitely an option a lot us live here. The headline numbers in the press as you can understand are absolute maximums, 6k in DB is still a bit light for an older family. Need to remember the money is going to the landlord not the pilot. The pilot does not get to keep the difference between what the landlord receives and what they are contractually allowed for.

Many of us would like to return to our home countries, but the company is not making those positions available.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:33 pm

blandy62 wrote:

when I was working in HK, that money my company was paying to the landlord could be deducted from my income tax and was not taxable as far as I can recall. So why do expat pilot need to pay tax on this?


As I posted above that is the IRD rules.
https://www.gov.hk/en/residents/taxes/s ... idence.htm

You probably got a cash allowance, where we fall in a category of “employer provides residence for employee”, the money goes to the landlord. Your company probably paid the tax liability, where we pay the tax liability.

Since 2008, everyone since employed (which is the majority of the pilots) are now paid a Hong Kong cash allowance which is cash they can use how they choose. The older contracts like mine we have to apply to the company to rent a place, that gets approved or declined, and the money goes to the landlord. I don’t control the money or where I can live, the company does.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
raylee67
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:42 pm

blandy62 wrote:
zeke wrote:
This is very misleading, no pilot is receiving 15k a month. This is a expat housing allowance that goes to the from the company to the landlord, it does not go into the pilots pocket. The pilots however do pay the tax on the money paid to the landlord.

.


when I was working in HK, that money my company was paying to the landlord could be deducted from my income tax and was not taxable as far as I can recall. So why do expat pilot need to pay tax on this?


I think the following is the difference. I will try to put it in an example:
Case 1:
You are paid a total salary of $10k a month. You pay $3k as rent for an apartment. Naturally, that comes out from the $10k salary. And since you receive $10k of salary, your income tax is calculated based on $10k (minus all the tax allowance of course). However, the tax code in Hong Kong allows you to report to your company with proof (e.g. rental contract) that you are using $3k for rent, in which case, the company can say they are "paying" your rent, and deduct the $3k from your "salary" for income tax purpose. So your tax is calculated based on a $7k salary. The rule states that, however, your rent should not be higher than 40% of your salary (or is it 50%? Forgot the details). In your employment contract, your salary is $10k a month. The rental thing is an optional thing the company does in good will. It's not a benefit. The company can take it away any time. I think this scheme was developed more recently because of loop-hole in the tax code. And like any tax code loop-hole. You can't just eliminate it. Just ask the US how difficult it is to do tax reform.

Case 2:
In the case of "housing allowance", you get $7k salary, and the company gives you $3k as housing allowance. In some cases, actually it is the company signing the rental contract, not you. In this case, the $3k housing allowance is ADDED to your $7k salary as basis of income tax calculation. This is traditionally how housing benefits are provided.

You can say that the net effect is the same. In both cases, you take home $7k and got a $3k rental place paid by your company. But usually allowance are more formal. They are written in contracts as a "hard" benefit.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:43 pm

I am no expect but I do know that When total compensation exceeds industry standards, companies usually find workarounds. I wonder if they can increase the number of pilots based in North America?

747 pilots at airlines like Atlas do 14-17 day trips from their North America bases, I wonder if CX can grow following that business model.
 
raylee67
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:03 pm

zeke wrote:
DB is definitely an option a lot us live here.

I know. They are my neighbors. And I know this is on the mind of a lot of CX pilots lately. I have overheard them talking on the bus. I have heard some of them talking to each other in the gym, one saying he is leaving for Air Canada. At that point, I was thinking "what? AC? They may treat you well now, but you know they go thru a bankruptcy cycle every 20 years, right? And by the way, you may get into AC now. In the next contract negotiation, you may be dumped at Rouge!" Of course, I didn't say anything. I don't know him. I hope you are not that guy in the gym that evening...

zeke wrote:
The headline numbers in the press as you can understand are absolute maximums, 6k in DB is still a bit light for an older family. Need to remember the money is going to the landlord not the pilot. The pilot does not get to keep the difference between what the landlord receives and what they are contractually allowed for.

I understand that too. And I understand that many of you have planned your lives starting 20 or 30 years ago with that hard promise of housing allowance from the company. But I also think that the pilots have to understand that the world have changed, whether they like it or not. No one has that benefit outside your world any more. And when things unravel, the pilots cannot expect the fellow oppressed labor class outside of CX to stand behind you.

In the worst case scenario, if there is a strike, the chance is, Air China will send 50 planes here to fill the gap as long as it needs to. It will even cancel its own flights to do so. Because China has been seeing disruptions in Hong Kong with paranoiac suspicions. I know the pilots' fights with CX is a pure labor issue, but I am pretty sure China does not see it that way. They will go into their paranoiac spiral and deduce that this is somehow a plot by MI6 and CIA to cause unrest in Hong Kong, to embarrass China, and this is all part of a plot to slow/stop the "rise" of China. They already thought many of the protests and unrest in the last few years in Hong Kong were results of the "plots". So naturally, they will do everything they can to "defeat" the plots. For them, this will become a political struggle, not some legal or labor thing as you think it is. While they are not going to roll out tanks (after all, they didn't do that even 2 years ago), they can fly their planes, and their pilots will genuinely think that they are doing it as a patriotic duty.
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:24 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I am no expect but I do know that When total compensation exceeds industry standards, companies usually find workarounds. I wonder if they can increase the number of pilots based in North America?

747 pilots at airlines like Atlas do 14-17 day trips from their North America bases, I wonder if CX can grow following that business model.


It is not helpful when people who do not know what they are talking about make comments like this.

Our union has been in talks with the company for most of the year on how to save money, we have provided a number of proposals which would forego some salary and allowances in the short term and would return back to us when the company is profitable again. They have rejected the proposals, as they only want to take and not give back.

Our union is very familiar with the actual compensation being offered around the world through IFALPA. We are benchmarked against AA, BA, EK, QF, and SQ (North America, Europe, Middle East, Australia/NZ, Asia). CX pilots are the lowest paid out of that group however the most productive pilots in that group. CX pilots also have the lowest disposable income, as Hong Kong cost of living is so much higher.

We have probably lost 50+ pilots this year to North American carriers, we had 37 pilots resign in October (~1%). CX 747 pilots often do 12 day patterns, eg HKG-ANC-LAX-MIA-MEX and back.

In the year they have been asking cuts from the pilots, they have spent billions purchasing the remainder of Air Hong Kong, another 30 billion for new aircraft for Dragonair, new lounges at airports, renovated the buildings at Cathay City, and rebranding the airline. They have also mismanaged the fuel hedging.

In the meantime pilots have saved large amounts of fuel by operatating efficiently.

What the company also have not put in the press is that all the cabin crew and junior pilots were paid a 13th month, and only the captains were not, that is 8.5% reduction in salary. Office workers, airport staff, and cabin crew received pay rises. Our subsidy airline Dragonair, their pilot’s have higher allowances, and received a full 13th month. They are also around 30% less productive than a CX pilot.

Many of us would like to return to our home countries, but the company is not making those positions available, even when there are vacancies.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:31 pm

Zeke, I am simply an outsider looking at a company that is losing money and also observing them paying allowances that are not industry standard. You can criticize me if you’d like, but it is all perspective. My perspective is based on the awareness of pilots at US carriers taking 30-40% pay cuts in the 2000s when their companies were in financial duress.
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:50 pm

raylee67 wrote:
I know. They are my neighbors.


Then you should know first hand the 15k a month is utter B/S

raylee67 wrote:
But I also think that the pilots have to understand that the world have changed, whether they like it or not. No one has that benefit outside your world any more. And when things unravel, the pilots cannot expect the fellow oppressed labor class outside of CX to stand behind you.


This is where you are wrong, our major shareholder Swire pays their expat employees in a Hong Kong 60-80% of the monthly wage as an accommodation allowance. None of them are living in DB where rents is cheap by Hong Kong standards. My freinds in banking still receive over HKD$100k a month as a cash housing allowance, and HKD$5 million bonuses a year. Even the Hong Kong Governent provides accommodation for its employees.

raylee67 wrote:
In the worst case scenario, if there is a strike, the chance is, Air China will send 50 planes here to fill the gap as long as it needs to. It will even cancel its own flights to do so. Because China has been seeing disruptions in Hong Kong with paranoiac suspicions.


Air China would do any such thing they cannot crew their own aircraft with experienced crew as it is. I could walk into a mainland Chinese airline job tomorrow for 30% pay rise tax paid (rumours are CX stopped a recruitment company from doing a roadshow in Hong Kong to recruit pilots for Chinese carriers). Air China cannot just stop their services, if they don’t operate them they will forego their slots.

No one is talking strike either except the company. They are trying very hard to provoke us into a strike so they have an excuse which the public will support to cancel our contracts.
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:05 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Zeke, I am simply an outsider looking at a company that is losing money and also observing them paying allowances that are not industry standard.


You are incorrect, accommodation allowances are normal for expat contracts. Hong Kong airlines also pays accommodation allowances, their package went up 15% in the past year. We have pilots leaving CX for Hong Kong airlines.

The real reason the company is running a loss has nothing to do with crew costs, it is fuel hedging mistakes made by management. This link sums it up. As I also explained they also spending big on buying assets, renovations, and rebranding.

http://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/ ... l-hedging/

If the airline would open up the empty positions outside of Hong Kong I would no longer receive expat allowances. The vacancies are there, no one can explain why they don’t open them up.

Newbiepilot wrote:
My perspective is based on the awareness of pilots at US carriers taking 30-40% pay cuts in the 2000s when their companies were in financial duress.


And as I have explained above, our union used the same North American model as a basis for a proposal of short term cuts with snap backs but our proposals have been rejected by management.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
raylee67
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:06 pm

zeke wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I know. They are my neighbors.


Then you should know first hand the 15k a month is utter B/S

raylee67 wrote:
But I also think that the pilots have to understand that the world have changed, whether they like it or not. No one has that benefit outside your world any more. And when things unravel, the pilots cannot expect the fellow oppressed labor class outside of CX to stand behind you.


This is where you are wrong, our major shareholder Swire pays their expat employees in a Hong Kong 60-80% of the monthly wage as an accommodation allowance. None of them are living in DB where rents is cheap by Hong Kong standards. My freinds in banking still receive over HKD$100k a month as a cash housing allowance, and HKD$5 million bonuses a year. Even the Hong Kong Governent provides accommodation for its employees.

raylee67 wrote:
In the worst case scenario, if there is a strike, the chance is, Air China will send 50 planes here to fill the gap as long as it needs to. It will even cancel its own flights to do so. Because China has been seeing disruptions in Hong Kong with paranoiac suspicions.


Air China would do any such thing they cannot crew their own aircraft with experienced crew as it is. I could walk into a mainland Chinese airline job tomorrow for 30% pay rise tax paid (rumours are CX stopped a recruitment company from doing a roadshow in Hong Kong to recruit pilots for Chinese carriers). Air China cannot just stop their services, if they don’t operate them they will forego their slots.

No one is talking strike either except the company. They are trying very hard to provoke us into a strike so they have an excuse which the public will support to cancel our contracts.

I think I never mentioned 15k. That's why I used 6k as benchmark, which is closer to the 5k number you talked about.

Well, I am not saying no one in the banks still get housing allowance. The banks are removing the benefits fast, especially the US banks, just like how they remove Defined Benefit Pensions back home. The question is only how fast each bank is removing this, and whether that's affecting existing expats or just new ones. Again, the benefits are provided to the MDs who can earn them billions by closing a deal, but no longer so liberally to any new expats. That's also because expats are not that useful to close deals any more since the most lucrative deals are now from China. While you have mentioned bonus in banks, that's a completely different beast. You may get it this year because you close a big deal or went way over target in your trading, and then get fired next year because you didn't hit your target. After all, traders from Wall St banks were getting bonus up to USD50 million back in 2006, two years before the market blows up, and they along with it.

As for China, obviously I was just using Air China as an example. If it is a State directive to define this as a political struggle, this would not be just Air China joining the "struggle". All resources available to the Party will be utilized, even Hainan Group/HX is possible. They don't need to stop service to send their planes here. They can cancel AMS today, CDG tomorrow, SVO the next day, and they can use their domestic flights too. They control the slots. They control the airlines. They can do anything within China. Won't forego any slots at PVG or PEK to move their planes to HKG for a month or two. It is also possible that management is provoking a strike because deep down, they know the Party will be behind them, in the worst case scenario. Unfortunately, the rule of law doesn't exist in this place any more. It still exists for petty cases like theft or car accidents, but not in anything that may hit a nerve in the Party.

But in any case, trying to provoke a strike is a legitimate tactic in labor negotiation. I think most employers do that in US and Canada, even the Governments do, when they negotiate collective agreement with their staff.
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B-HOP
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:41 pm

zeke:

Set aside the other discussion CX vs HX. Hong Kong is the most expensive city in the world, most people on average job would not be able to buy property on their, own, usually they buy when they got married and likely with help on deposits from parents, expats have none of this luxuries as spouses would need seperate visa for work even in learning centre, what is the proportion of pilot buying compare to renting?Add kids into the equation and you understand why the allowance is needed to keep the pilots in Hong Kong, forget about other industries as you are comparing apple with orange. What has been offered by CX were simply out of touch and various measures put into place to stop foreign buyers also affects CX pilot, which CX could have discussed with the government. Problems CX suffered now is it is locked onto a long term contract for fuel above market rate and that competition is increasing, add to an expensive administration cost.
CX have difficulty getting cadets and has been for years, the best high school students tend to do either business and head to investment bank and funds on graduation or law and medicine which give them stable career after graduation and training.
Live life to max!!!
 
Speedalive
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:48 pm

I’m watching this situation with great interest. My career goal has been to become a CX pilot since I decided to become a pilot, but if the proposed cuts to the housing allowance or whatever it’s actually called (ARAPA I think?), I think I might be better off just staying in Canada and trying for the majors here once I have the experience. The SO pay right now is already quite low compared to the old contract. Looks to be around 6000 Canadian net per month (including the $10000 HKD/mo housing), but to get a small single room apartment (under 1000 square ft) near the airport in DB or TC, it’s around $15-20k HKD per month at the moment (around 2500-3500/mo in CAD) which is a substantial chunk of the pay. It only seems to be getting more expensive as well. Somebody in the know told me that he’s expecting a 5-10% pay cut and the elimination of housing all together which would make it simply unaffordable. I always thought the whole point of going to CX was that it’s a highly respectable airline that treats their pilots well and pays them well, but I could almost do better at home in Canada with the rates they’re paying.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 pm

zeke wrote:

Then you should know first hand the 15k a month is utter BS

Comments like this generate little sympathy when the other 76% of your company earn far less than this in total salary, let alone a housing allowance.
 
catiii
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 pm

B737900ER wrote:
zeke wrote:

Then you should know first hand the 15k a month is utter BS

Comments like this generate little sympathy when the other 76% of your company earn far less than this in total salary, let alone a housing allowance.


Why don't the other 76% make the investment in training and apply to be a pilot then? Seems the market has set a price for pilots that is far higher than, say, gate agents.

I wonder why that is. Hmmm...
 
Flighty
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:32 pm

zeke wrote:
Sorry to bust your bubble, but that is simply not true. For 5k (HK$40k) in Tung Chung you would be hard pressed to get a decent 2 bedroom apartment. Not the sort of place you could have 3 teenage children.

(...)

While this is going on the managers are getting over US$40k month housing allowance, and other bonuses and allowances tuning into the tens of millions HKD. That is available in the annual reports.


1. This reminds me of 1980s mechanics / baggage handlers saying "but I have 2 vacation homes and 3 kids in college. How am I supposed to pay for that?" I felt like saying, nobody guaranteed you the good days would last. You built a lifestyle on something that wasn't guaranteed. You had a great run, for years. Congratulations. In this case one can be much more conciliatory -- what I do is, I pay every month to live somewhere. Many families do. So, that's a suggestion. The free rent thing sounds extraordinary but most of us save for retirement on top of paying rent/mortgage -- at least in the US.

2. $40k/mo. That is as much as a distinguished surgeon makes in the US. Just because someone else is paid a lot of money does not imply that I should be paid a lot of money.

Not questioning your expertise, only your tone on this as you approach the public. Understand life in HK is pricey - perhaps locate elsewhere. The broken Chinese system is flooding HK with funny money - not your fault and not the airline's fault, with respect.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:55 pm

catiii wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
zeke wrote:

Then you should know first hand the 15k a month is utter BS

Comments like this generate little sympathy when the other 76% of your company earn far less than this in total salary, let alone a housing allowance.


Why don't the other 76% make the investment in training and apply to be a pilot then? Seems the market has set a price for pilots that is far higher than, say, gate agents.

I wonder why that is. Hmmm...

The industry has changed. The world has become more informed. And the gun that pilots unions have used to inflate their importance and hold companies hostage has less and less bullets.

You will probably say “without pilots the airplane won’t fly”. But without a mechanic the airplane won’t fly. Without a dispatcher the airplane won’t fly. They both make investments in education to do what that do, and are as integral to the operation as the flight crew, but don’t act as pompous and entitled as most pilots do. That attitude is due to the image that the unions have helped project over the decades. But that’s all changing.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:00 pm

So If I need a one bedroom apartment closest to the airport with a metro/train/bus connection then how much it will cost?
 
Speedalive
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:57 am

So much hostility towards pilots on here. I don’t get it. They signed a contract just like anybody else would in any other profession and now the very terms they signed upon are being threatened. Can you blame somebody for building a life around an income that was contractually agreed upon when they were hired? If I were in that situation, I’d be fighting to protect the T&C’s as well. The fact is that Cathay’s management got them in the bleak financial situation they’re in because of a fuel hedging disaster, but they’re choosing to take it out on the pilots instead of taking responsibility. Heck, Zeke even said the union has given them several solutions to lower the costs of pilot labour that wouldn’t have detrimental effects of the families of the pilots, but the company isn’t interested.

A large portion of CX pilots are expats who left their home country to fly under the superior T&C’s offered by CX at their time of hire and management is actively trying to reduce it to match or be lower than the operators where these pilots came from in the first place. There’s this thing called seniority as well that all airlines have. A lot of these pilots have years of seniority at CX, and unlike many other professions, their seniority won’t carry over should they choose to go back home to fly which means they’ll take a massive pay cut no matter what. Not a great situation if you have a family to support. Try to put yourselves in their shoes for a second and have a little sympathy.

B737900ER wrote:
You will probably say “without pilots the airplane won’t fly”. But without a mechanic the airplane won’t fly. Without a dispatcher the airplane won’t fly. They both make investments in education to do what that do, and are as integral to the operation as the flight crew, but don’t act as pompous and entitled as most pilots do. That attitude is due to the image that the unions have helped project over the decades. But that’s all changing.

Remove the pilots and there’s no reason for dispatchers and maintenance to be there in the first place. The planes only fly when the pilots are sitting in the front seats (robots haven’t taken over yet), so your point is irrelevant because the last time I checked, the only way airlines make money is if the planes fly. And you know what, pilots are responsible for a heck of a lot of things during a flight including the safe transportation from point A to B of those in the back. I’d say they’re deserving of good pay for what they do.
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:17 am

raylee67 wrote:
I think I never mentioned 15k. That's why I used 6k as benchmark, which is closer to the 5k number you talked about.


The 15k is the headline number that in the article in the OP, as you know a lot of us live in DB which is some of the cheapest rental in HKG. The articles are misleading at best trying to portray us in the press as being overpaid. Fact is the levels were agreed to 15 years ago, and the are benchmark against the Government index. The Government index is based upon actual transactions.

Let me reiterate, this only applies to people employed a long time ago, everyone since 2008 has not received housing allowances (which is the majority of pilots). It is similar to your banking situation, new employees do not receive it, whilst the people on the older contracts that had it included do. It is very easy for them to fix, let us be based in our home countries where we will not longer be expats, and we will no longer receive expat allowances.

raylee67 wrote:
As for China, obviously I was just using Air China as an example. If it is a State directive to define this as a political struggle, this would not be just Air China joining the "struggle". All resources available to the Party will be utilized, even Hainan Group/HX is possible. They don't need to stop service to send their planes here. They can cancel AMS today, CDG tomorrow, SVO the next day, and they can use their domestic flights too. They control the slots. They control the airlines.


You are very misguided here. Mainland Chinese airlines cannot just operate international services out of HKG, nor can the just start operating flights for another airline. Airlines in Hong Kong regulated by the HKCAD, it is one of the reasons why Jetstar HKG fell over, China Eastern one of the major shareholders was not considered local. The mainland government does not control airlines in HKG or slots at HKIA, nor do they control slots at places like AMS. AMS recently cancelled an airline out of their airport because they didnt make their slots.

raylee67"But in any case, trying to provoke a strike is a legitimate tactic in labor negotiation. I think most employers do that in US and Canada, even the Governments do, when they negotiate collective agreement with their staff.[/quote]

That is a very bizarre position to have, to provoke a shutdown of your company and create more losses ? Pilots don't want a strike, that is no good for the shareholders, the company, or the customers. We just want to keep doing our jobs under the terms we were employed under.

[quote="B-HOP wrote:
Problems CX suffered now is it is locked onto a long term contract for fuel above market rate and that competition is increasing, add to an expensive administration cost.


Our overheads are actually lower than the airlines I mentioned in the benchmarks above, while it is expense to have property here the corporate tax rate is low (half of North America, Europe, Australia), compliance costs are low, most of the heavy maintenance has been done in mainland China for decades. The crew are actually very productive if you look at it on a RTK basis.

Market completion is there, the market is also growing. We expect to see another 2000 aircraft into the region in the coming years, that is another 20000 pilot jobs.

Take fuel hedging out of the equation, we would have been profitable in the past few years. Just now they are bringing online some computer tools that will actually measure the profitability of each flight. At the moment they don't know if a flight is actually profitable or not, they don't know the actual revenue, nor the actual costs. When the new SAP system is fully online they will actually know where to look for savings, which routes to chop etc.

Speedalive wrote:
I’m watching this situation with great interest. My career goal has been to become a CX pilot since I decided to become a pilot, but if the proposed cuts to the housing allowance or whatever it’s actually called (ARAPA I think?), I think I might be better off just staying in Canada and trying for the majors here once I have the experience. The SO pay right now is already quite low compared to the old contract. Looks to be around 6000 Canadian net per month (including the $10000 HKD/mo housing), but to get a small single room apartment (under 1000 square ft) near the airport in DB or TC, it’s around $15-20k HKD per month at the moment (around 2500-3500/mo in CAD) which is a substantial chunk of the pay. It only seems to be getting more expensive as well. Somebody in the know told me that he’s expecting a 5-10% pay cut and the elimination of housing all together which would make it simply unaffordable. I always thought the whole point of going to CX was that it’s a highly respectable airline that treats their pilots well and pays them well, but I could almost do better at home in Canada with the rates they’re paying.


No pilot has been employed on expat terms since 2008, the new contracts for second officers includes a cash Hong Kong allowance. Do your homework before coming, including the expected career progression. North American carriers you can still expect to get healthy retirements/pension fund.

B737900ER wrote:
Comments like this generate little sympathy when the other 76% of your company earn far less than this in total salary, let alone a housing allowance.


Only a small percentage of us are on expat terms, the headline numbers are not representative of reality. I do get paid more than an entry level cabin crew, I have over 30 years experience, they have no years of experience. I am the only person responsible for the aircraft and passengers, if that entry level cabin crew member makes a mistake, it is still my responsibility. Interestingly if we were to employ cabin crew from Japan today, they would still receive an expat package including housing allowance, however if we were to employ a pilot from Canada, they don't.

The Hong Kong Police force still has some expat British police officers in their ranks, they get paid a lot more than a new recruit, who does not get expat benefits. The Hong Kong Police force is not cutting their expat packages, they simple stopped employing people on expat packages. Over time the number of people on those packages reduces to zero.

Flighty wrote:
2. $40k/mo. That is as much as a distinguished surgeon makes in the US. Just because someone else is paid a lot of money does not imply that I should be paid a lot of money.


That is just the managers housing allowance, salary, other allowances, and bonuses are ontop of that. FYI just up the road in mainland China they are offering expats a starting wage of US$30k a month for captains to fly narrow bodies like 737s.

Slash787 wrote:
So If I need a one bedroom apartment closest to the airport with a metro/train/bus connection then how much it will cost?


You would be looking at around US$2500 a month for a one bedroom 450-500 sq.ft place in Tung Chung, around USD$650000 to buy the same place.
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gatibosgru
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:29 am

Insane! But with the huge investment it is to become a pilot you cannot blame them for expecting perks. Especially when you've essentially become a commodity.
@DadCelo
 
Speedalive
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:54 am

zeke wrote:
No pilot has been employed on expat terms since 2008, the new contracts for second officers includes a cash Hong Kong allowance. Do your homework before coming, including the expected career progression. North American carriers you can still expect to get healthy retirements/pension fund.

I'm confused. I thought the 10000hkd/mo allowance was the housing allowance, but just significantly reduced from the pre-2008 amount. Is arapa something completely different then?

Should nothing change from right now, would you still say Cathay is worth it? I'm genuinely curious. Feel free to reply via PM!
 
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zeke
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:26 am

Speedalive wrote:
I'm confused. I thought the 10000hkd/mo allowance was the housing allowance, but just significantly reduced from the pre-2008 amount. Is arapa something completely different then?

Should nothing change from right now, would you still say Cathay is worth it? I'm genuinely curious. Feel free to reply via PM!


No, ARAPA- Accomodation and Remtal Assistace Policy is the expat housing policy. The money is rental assistance paid to the landlord. If you rent for HKD10,000, your landlord receives HKD$10,000, the pilot receives no cash, just a place to live. The company keeps any savings.

No one employed after 2008 receives that, they receive the Hong Kong Pilot Allowance cash allowance, you are not employed on expat terms, it’s local terms.

What you do with your cash allowance and where you live is up to you. If you rent for HKD$10,000, you keep any excess funds from your allowance as cash.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Speedalive
Posts: 166
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:54 am

zeke wrote:
No, ARAPA- Accomodation and Remtal Assistace Policy is the expat housing policy. The money is rental assistance paid to the landlord. If you rent for HKD10,000, your landlord receives HKD$10,000, the pilot receives no cash, just a place to live. The company keeps any savings.

No one employed after 2008 receives that, they receive the Hong Kong Pilot Allowance cash allowance, you are not employed on expat terms, it’s local terms.

What you do with your cash allowance and where you live is up to you. If you rent for HKD$10,000, you keep any excess funds from your allowance as cash.

That makes much more sense. Thank you for explaining. Arapa must've been nice...
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:25 am

People look with envy and disdain at the CX captains but don't have a problem with Beijing Capital Airlines, Xiamen Air etc, offering $30k per month to live in a lower cost and zero tax environment. There is a reason that CX is a top tier airline, the pilots they previously chose to employ were literally the best of the best. The CX interview process was notoriously hard, complex, and the upgrade process to captain is often even harder. The best pilots in the industry deserve to be compensated accordingly, especially considering this was already agreed to in contract.
 
catiii
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 pm

B737900ER wrote:
catiii wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Comments like this generate little sympathy when the other 76% of your company earn far less than this in total salary, let alone a housing allowance.


Why don't the other 76% make the investment in training and apply to be a pilot then? Seems the market has set a price for pilots that is far higher than, say, gate agents.

I wonder why that is. Hmmm...

The industry has changed. The world has become more informed. And the gun that pilots unions have used to inflate their importance and hold companies hostage has less and less bullets.

You will probably say “without pilots the airplane won’t fly”. But without a mechanic the airplane won’t fly. Without a dispatcher the airplane won’t fly. They both make investments in education to do what that do, and are as integral to the operation as the flight crew, but don’t act as pompous and entitled as most pilots do. That attitude is due to the image that the unions have helped project over the decades. But that’s all changing.


It is?

That expat stipend and the high pay rates for pilots at most carriers show otherwise.

It’s obvious from your comments that you have a measure of jealousy for the pilot group. The airplane WILL still fly without a dispatcher or mechanic. I’ve flown plenty of airplanes without a dispatcher or mechanic. The principles of flight do not rely on a dispatcher or mechanic.

If what you mean to say here is that the operation relies on a dispatcher and mechanic, you’re correct. Again though, the market has determined that it values a pilot more than it does a dispatcher or mechanic.

Life sucks. Go be a pilot instead.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:29 am

catiii wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
catiii wrote:

Why don't the other 76% make the investment in training and apply to be a pilot then? Seems the market has set a price for pilots that is far higher than, say, gate agents.

I wonder why that is. Hmmm...

The industry has changed. The world has become more informed. And the gun that pilots unions have used to inflate their importance and hold companies hostage has less and less bullets.

You will probably say “without pilots the airplane won’t fly”. But without a mechanic the airplane won’t fly. Without a dispatcher the airplane won’t fly. They both make investments in education to do what that do, and are as integral to the operation as the flight crew, but don’t act as pompous and entitled as most pilots do. That attitude is due to the image that the unions have helped project over the decades. But that’s all changing.


It is?


Yes, it is. What our engineering department is paying for off the street A&Ps now outstrips what regionals were offering Captains as recently as five years ago.


catiii wrote:

It’s obvious from your comments that you have a measure of jealousy for the pilot group. The airplane WILL still fly without a dispatcher or mechanic. I’ve flown plenty of airplanes without a dispatcher or mechanic. The principles of flight do not rely on a dispatcher or mechanic.


Negative. I think you've mentioned working in the industry before. Do you know what the term "Drop Dead" means? Do you know how regularly those come up? Next time you're flying, have a good look through your log to see how often things like dailes/srvc checks/weeklies come up. A pilot's not going to be able to clear one of those or add time to a deferal. And with that, your operation stops.

I've read his postings before and I really don't don't see how you can infer envy about this.



catiii wrote:
If what you mean to say here is that the operation relies on a dispatcher and mechanic, you’re correct. Again though, the market has determined that it values a pilot more than it does a dispatcher or mechanic.


Then why make the statements you did above? You don't get to pick and choose what's essential and not for an operation like this. You have everything or you have nothing. Full stop.


As for market determinations, not so much. The truth is closer to needing more mechanics and engineering staff per aircraft than less. A larger pool that has a similar budget and a less active representation will result in lower pay scales. It's a company, not a charity, after all.

In any case, even then, MX, Planning, Engineering, and DX are all a lot closer to Flight Operations pay scales than they have been in the past. The chief difference being that pilots don't get outsourced as much as the rest. But that's coming.

catiii wrote:
Life sucks. Go be a pilot instead.


Only if you want it to suck more. I'm away from home about as much as most long haul pilots, and it does get very old, pretty quick.

Zeke actually has a good summation somewhere here about what it's like to spend most of your time seeing the world from a ULH at night. For the record, while I agree with most that stipends, per diems and benefits at large for expat or downline work aren't whay they used to be anywhere, I don't begrudge CX pilots for getting what they can, while they can. I'd be doing that too if I were in their shoes.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:44 am

They use the housing subsidy as a way to keep flight attendants young. I met a flight attendant on her last flight in HKG she was force to quit because her housing sub was ending. Apartments in Hong Kong are crazy expensive. So you people who are say f those people let them pay full market. You should try making a living that way first before hurling crap.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5030
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:37 pm

B737900ER wrote:
Where are they living on 15k per month?

Meanwhile cabin crew gets a 1% raise

And the poor oppressed pilots are still threatening to strike. Talk about entitlement culture with that work group.


Have you even Been or lived in Hong Kong? If you had then the money they're paying for housing is fully justified!!
Or?? they can hire Chinese Pilots (if they can find any) I mean Who is going to live in Hong Kong for peanuts? NOBODY!
Maybe you might want to visit there before making the judgement about what Cathay is paying for housng because if they Don't pay it??
Theu might not have any Pilots or access to USA trained pilots
 
jfk777
Posts: 7362
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:21 pm

Where are Cathay's off Hong Kong bases ? London, Sydney, Vancouver ? With the cost of housing in Hong Kong does Cathay have pilot bases at Foreign cities they fly to ?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:51 am

A lot of people who got caught up in the 'pilots are entitled' argument seemed to ignore Zeke's assertion that some in management are getting larger allowances. This is not an unheard of pattern in current corporate governance - people protect and reward their own employment group, even when results (see fuel hedging errors and two FYs of losses) should result in the opposite. Is it inappropriate to say some bean counters and director-level people are ALSO entitled?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kashmon
Posts: 642
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:02 am

jfk777 wrote:
Where are Cathay's off Hong Kong bases ? London, Sydney, Vancouver ? With the cost of housing in Hong Kong does Cathay have pilot bases at Foreign cities they fly to ?

idk if there is a base in NZ
but there are heaps of Cathay pilots living in rural NZ and commuting
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:51 am

and heaps of crash pads in the NT or Kowloon, so you can arrive a day... or two... or three early. Works OK for some, not for others.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:51 am

Zeke -

Bottom line, I fully support you and all of the pilots at CX to establish and maintain an equitable working environment.

Let those who are talking smack, spend the time and money to go get the experience and ratings, to maybe then get a job - politely go pound sand.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 294
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Re: Senior CX Expat Pilots to continue receiving USD15K monthly housing allowances

Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:57 pm

All the purile pilot hating comments on here betray the green eyed monster that is prevalent within ground based roles, its all rather pathetic and akin to similar comments directed about firemen who sleep at work or teachers who get longer holidays.
In the case of pilots at major airlines remuneration is part of the appeal of the job, and unlike many other professions we have the ability through bad luck, mismanagement or a combination of other factors to kill a great many of our customers at once, unlike surgeons or first responders etc.
To reach a senior position within a large airline requires a significant amount of personal sacrifice along with continual recurrent training and an ever changing operational environment.
As an expat both myself and my family will only entertain remaining expats if the package of employment offsets the hardship of living in a foreign land whilst being subject to at times asinine rules and being treated as a second class citizen.
Knowing more than a few CX crew I know it’s a very similar experience for them, in which case the market rules, you have to pay to attract experience, moreover if you don’t endeavour to retain and respect it then that experience will walk.
To all you pilot haters on here, how about you walk a mile in another persons shoes before you highlight your ignorance and envy with the comments I’ve read so far.

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos