• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3096
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:43 pm

flee wrote:
william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.

That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

Delta does not want to burn bridges with Boeing. This is wise as there are only two major commercial aircraft manufacturers in the world.


True, that quote is for the majority of posters who think Boeing's sales number in Atlanta was deleted because of the CS tariff case.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:43 pm

ap305 wrote:
Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.


Any clue why GE would have taken a Boeing bias?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:43 pm

ap305 wrote:
Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.

To me, it would appear that Delta chose the PW GTF purely on economics - by 2020, the upgraded version should be available with even better fuel burn characteristics than the current model. This sounds to me like a purely business decision - DL just wants to operate an aircraft with the best economics.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:47 pm

william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"


Well he’s hardly going to say anything else, is he? :shakehead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ap305
Posts: 1501
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:49 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.


Any clue why GE would have taken a Boeing bias?


Perhaps due to ge executives going to Boeing? Perhaps defense procurement partnerships? Just seem to have drifted away from Airbus.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3096
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"


Well he’s hardly going to say anything else, is he? :shakehead:


This is Airbus's and Delta's moment, really was no need to bring up Boeing at all.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:55 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.


Any clue why GE would have taken a Boeing bias?

Airbus has also moved away from GE - both the A350 and A330 Neo programmes feature RR engines exclusively.

When the A330ceo and A380 programmes wind down, GE will have no more interest in Airbus widebody programmes. That might have prompted GE to forge closer ties with Boeing.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:01 pm

flee wrote:
Airbus has also moved away from GE - both the A350 and A330 Neo programmes feature RR engines exclusively.

When the A330ceo and A380 programmes wind down, GE will have no more interest in Airbus widebody programmes. That might have prompted GE to forge closer ties with Boeing.


The reason why Airbus walked away from GE can be found here:

Leahy has accused GE of playing favorites.

"The problem we have with GE is they go to Seattle and say, 'What kind of engine should we design for your airframe?'" said Leahy. "Then they come to Toulouse and say, 'Here is the kind of airframe you need to build to fit our engine.'"


Hence the question why GE has a Boeing bias?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8490
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:03 pm

airbazar wrote:
And ironically, Boeing is building a MAX plant in China.


Painting and dusting off: :-)
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2 ... 536938.htm
not an FAL.

comparable to the A330 work delegated to China.
Murphy is an optimist
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:06 pm

Question/guess.If the 321lr can go 4,000nm with 206 pax in 2 class layout.How far might a 321lr go with 197 pax in 3 class?
The same-ish?
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1222
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
With the engine MRO choice, Boeing will have a hard time placing a plane that has GE engines in that class. I would not be surprised if A320s/CS300/CS500s will follow.



I was about to say that it sure does look like the CS 300/posible 500 will fill the gap between this order and the CS100s.

Boeing, with it's political sway in getting that tanker contract seems to be backfiring a bit as it looks like Mobile is going to explode in size on the commercial side of the business.

They are going to have to make more compelling, better planes ASAP.
 
User avatar
Balerit
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:14 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:22 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

The planes are going to.be assembled in Mobile, Alabama.....


Most of the pre-assembly happens in Europe though.


With a lot of stuff coming directly from the US, like engines.


and body parts manufactured by Spirit Aerosystems.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:00 pm

mikeyp224 wrote:
NOOOOOO!!! Please don't go with the GTF!!! :(


Hey, remember your "Cool Down Cycle." ;)
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
RalXWB
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:03 pm

100 + 100 Options....I hope this includes some LR´s.
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:15 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Pretty close: the press release claims 197 seats.

You were also right regarding the new door arrangement: the render clearly shows the absence of the 2nd door, so DL has selected the ACF cabin option.

Image

By the time the begin construction on these won’t that configuration be the only A321 configuration built?
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
QXAS
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:45 pm

william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you, while expecting Airbus to match.”This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.
Last edited by QXAS on Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
mat66
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:12 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:46 pm

767333ER wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Pretty close: the press release claims 197 seats.

You were also right regarding the new door arrangement: the render clearly shows the absence of the 2nd door, so DL has selected the ACF cabin option.

By the time the begin construction on these won’t that configuration be the only A321 configuration built?



This is what I thought, as well. As I understand it the only optional part is the second pair of over wing exits and if doors 3 are activated or not. Doors 2 are gone for good.
 
trex8
Posts: 5327
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:54 pm

QXAS wrote:
william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you.” This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.


DL could still get 787s for some of the 767 replacements. The engine issue for a big operator is probably not make or break when you have dozens if not more planes in a potential fleet. Even Lufthansa opted for a new engine type, RR ,on the A330 supposedly to get Lufthansa Technik MRO business. DL Tech Ops is big enough to consider LEAP/GEnx capability. They still have a huge CFM56 fleet in their 737s, much larger still than many other airlines with their own in house capability.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:57 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


Disagree. Just because DL bought Airbus here doesn't mean they won't buy a MoM from Boeing. DL will buy what DL needs at the best price DL can get at the time with the best available timeline that DL can find - be that A, B or C(series)

Extrapolating one deal into all future ones is emotional.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHTYYZ DEN DOH BLR MAA TXL MEX
 
Pendennis
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:00 pm

QXAS wrote:
william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you, while expecting Airbus to match.”This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.



So how do Southwest and Ryanair deal with the duopoly??
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8521
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:04 pm

trex8 wrote:
QXAS wrote:
william wrote:

That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you.” This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.


DL could still get 787s for some of the 767 replacements. The engine issue for a big operator is probably not make or break when you have dozens if not more planes in a potential fleet. Even Lufthansa opted for a new engine type, RR ,on the A330 supposedly to get Lufthansa Technik MRO business. DL Tech Ops is big enough to consider LEAP/GEnx capability. They still have a huge CFM56 fleet in their 737s, much larger still than many other airlines with their own in house capability.


If I understand it correctly GE was not willing to give DL maintenance the MRO capability for the LEAP.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:06 pm

trex8 wrote:
DL could still get 787s for some of the 767 replacements. The engine issue for a big operator is probably not make or break when you have dozens if not more planes in a potential fleet. Even Lufthansa opted for a new engine type, RR ,on the A330 supposedly to get Lufthansa Technik MRO business. DL Tech Ops is big enough to consider LEAP/GEnx capability. They still have a huge CFM56 fleet in their 737s, much larger still than many other airlines with their own in house capability.


With Boeing now looking to make MRO a major revenue stream in its own right, does that not make them a direct competitor to TechOps?

In which case, is it any surprise DL didn't go with them?

I did also read about P&W being much more flexible than CFM when it comes to 3rd parties maintaining their engines.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:08 pm

trex8 wrote:
QXAS wrote:
william wrote:

That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you.” This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.


DL could still get 787s for some of the 767 replacements. The engine issue for a big operator is probably not make or break when you have dozens if not more planes in a potential fleet. Even Lufthansa opted for a new engine type, RR ,on the A330 supposedly to get Lufthansa Technik MRO business. DL Tech Ops is big enough to consider LEAP/GEnx capability. They still have a huge CFM56 fleet in their 737s, much larger still than many other airlines with their own in house capability.

True, DL TechOps would be missing out on a very huge slice of potential MRO contracts if they simply brush away 787s (esp GENx), considering that the 787 is now commonplace. Similarly for the 737MAX, it wouldn't do DL any good if they don't have any 737 MAX maintenance capabilities especially if the Poseidon platform gets MAXed (which is quite likely to happen), especially when they are working on P8As now.
 
User avatar
QuarkFly
Posts: 368
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:14 pm

Fair decision...PW GTF is a surprise !! No doubt Boeing was hobbled by its self-defeating obsession with destroying Bombardier and the C-Series. I wonder if Delta asked Boeing to drop its complaint about the C-Series order in return for including some 737's in the order? .. And B declined?

In any case -- the 10-Max is an interim solution anyway as B must come up with something new or better in the 180-250 passenger area within the next decade. The A321 has at least two decades to go before replacement...the better choice for a long term fleet.

I do hope that for Pratt...this is a sign that customers see the GTF problems are increasing in the past !!
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8685
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:19 pm

QXAS wrote:
Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus.

If DL no longer buys Boeing products how are they going to get honest pricing from Airbus, when they say they have a quote from Boeing I expect the response to be so what.
The only issue in relation to pricing on this one is whether the AA price guarantee came into play.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:20 pm

william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"


DL still has a lot of 737-900ER aircraft incoming. It placed a larger order for that type in 2011, and amended the order book in 2015 and 2017. I can see DL ordering even more end of the line 737-900ER aircraft.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
QXAS
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:22 pm

Pendennis wrote:
QXAS wrote:
william wrote:

That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"

With DL now being invested completely in the GTF for future narrowbody procurement, and RR for widebody, and Boeing being all GE/CFM besides the 787 which was cancelled by DL, I challenge Bastion to 1. Identify a Boeing airplane currently available that now makes sense given current procurement, and 2. Follow up on that statement in general. Until then I will continue to believe that DL uses Boeing simply as a tool to get honest pricing from Airbus. And Bastian’s statement reflects that. “Hey lower your prices a bit more and we’ll pick you, while expecting Airbus to match.”This is P&W and Airbus’ moment. Boeing had theirs in June and will undoubtedly have more moments. It would be interesting to see how people reacted if Boeing publicly sat out of DL’s next RFP. Won’t happen, but it would be interesting to say the least.



So how do Southwest and Ryanair deal with the duopoly??

Ryanair, Southwest, Spirit, Frontier, EasyJet, Norwegian, name any exclusive carrier, they all do exactly the same thing. I never said it’s a dirty practice. Does it bug me? Heck yeah, I love variety, I love options. Do both OEMs have plenty of carriers in their pockets? Definitely. Like I said in an earlier post, for Boeing working with Delta is similar to Airbus working with Ryanair or Southwest. However the rhetoric is different, for MOL and Gary Kelly it’s “throw new engines on the 737 or we might defect.” No matter what you offer it’s futile. In terms of the 787, Delta had 18 on order, for launch customer pricing. They cancelled. Is there a chance they reorder? Yes. Is it more likely than any other Boeing product? Probably. Is it more likely than an A330neo/ A350 top up? Nope. For DL, what they have on order now is something anyone would envy. The first of a brand new generation of narrowbodies, a rugged high capacity domestic trunk route flier that certain A.netters would pay 50% extra to fly. And 2 widebodies which combine to provide cutting edge design and flexibility. Airbus provides everything DL needs for mainline flying. Except a small widebody, but Boeing keeps kicking that down the street. Until MOM is launched, Airbus will simply make more sense for DL.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
QXAS
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:28 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
william wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


That's funny, because this is a quote from WSJ from Bastian-

"He also said Delta “has a great relationship with Boeing” and will order Boeing planes in the future"


DL still has a lot of 737-900ER aircraft incoming. It placed a larger order for that type in 2011, and amended the order book in 2015 and 2017. I can see DL ordering even more end of the line 737-900ER aircraft.

99.9995% of the time I agree with you. But, the cancellation has me uneasy about further top up orders especially now that they have a next gen narrowbody for the 737-900ERs segment incoming as well as a ton of CEOs incoming. I will be thrilled if I’m wrong. Not because I love the DL 737-900ER, I’m not that crazy. I just like seeing variety at the airport when I am waiting for my flight.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
Siddar
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:58 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
flee wrote:
Airbus has also moved away from GE - both the A350 and A330 Neo programmes feature RR engines exclusively.

When the A330ceo and A380 programmes wind down, GE will have no more interest in Airbus widebody programmes. That might have prompted GE to forge closer ties with Boeing.


The reason why Airbus walked away from GE can be found here:

Leahy has accused GE of playing favorites.

"The problem we have with GE is they go to Seattle and say, 'What kind of engine should we design for your airframe?'" said Leahy. "Then they come to Toulouse and say, 'Here is the kind of airframe you need to build to fit our engine.'"


Hence the question why GE has a Boeing bias?


How much of that is because Boeing has launched new sized aircraft first? Now Boeing is about launch MoM you see all engine manufactures beating a path to Boeing door. You have a case where Boeing sets specs for that engine and Airbus will have to accept it. Because the manufactures don't want to produce an engine of basically the same class but within 10-15% performance.

Airbus seems to have only taken the lead on engines for a380 and a320neo. In case Max there had to be smaller engine designed to fit Max lesser ground clearance. When you consider size of market for Max and engine makers not surprisingly don't have a big issue making engine for it in spite of Airbus have first mover advantage on the engine size.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:08 pm

william wrote:
Well he’s hardly going to say anything else, is he? :shakehead:


This is Airbus's and Delta's moment, really was no need to bring up Boeing at all.[/quote]

It was obvious that he would be asked why DL didn't select Boeing, so difficult for him to avoid mentioning them.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Chemist
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:15 pm

In years past there was a lot of talk about the 757. It was a niche aircraft and there was no reason to upgrade or restart it. It's market was limited.
I wonder if the MOM market was so limited why the A321 is doing so well now? Seems that the judgement that the old 757 market was small was incorrect.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2818
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:23 pm

Chemist wrote:
In years past there was a lot of talk about the 757. It was a niche aircraft and there was no reason to upgrade or restart it. It's market was limited.
I wonder if the MOM market was so limited why the A321 is doing so well now? Seems that the judgement that the old 757 market was small was incorrect.


The common sentiment here is that the 757 niche that Boeing had to address was the TATL 757 one. Nobody ever doubted that the market was there for a short-haul, 757 sized aircraft, in fact that segment has probably grown by quite a bit. The 757 however was completely inadequate for that task, even if it had been upgraded. It was just too much aircraft, too heavy.

These A321NEOs aren't the LR variant, but just the ordinary one.
 
gatechae
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:22 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:27 pm

StTim wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

The planes are going to.be assembled in Mobile, Alabama.....


Most of the pre-assembly happens in Europe though.

But spirit in the US had been supplying sections for European built A320’s.


Spirit Builds a350 sections in the US (NC) not A320. Spirits A320 production is in Scotland.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8490
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:32 pm

Chemist wrote:
In years past there was a lot of talk about the 757. It was a niche aircraft and there was no reason to upgrade or restart it. It's market was limited.
I wonder if the MOM market was so limited why the A321 is doing so well now? Seems that the judgement that the old 757 market was small was incorrect.

Just look at fuel per seatmile. about 3 :: 4 ? or worse?
757 is old tech, heavy, fuelguzzling and is not even advantaged by an ancient certification.
Murphy is an optimist
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:49 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

The planes are going to.be assembled in Mobile, Alabama.....


Most of the pre-assembly happens in Europe though.


With a lot of stuff coming directly from the US, like engines.


This will be spun as a major win for Alabama. In the end the winner is Delta. We know they got a good price and the A321 is an amazing product.
Fly CHD!
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:55 pm

ap305 wrote:
Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.


GE sure has a lot leaning on Boeing, especially with all A380 orders recently choosing RR engines and the A330neo and A350 both being RR engines exclusively... Let's hope the 777X goes well for GE :o
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY
 
Chemist
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
Chemist wrote:
In years past there was a lot of talk about the 757. It was a niche aircraft and there was no reason to upgrade or restart it. It's market was limited.
I wonder if the MOM market was so limited why the A321 is doing so well now? Seems that the judgement that the old 757 market was small was incorrect.

Just look at fuel per seatmile. about 3 :: 4 ? or worse?
757 is old tech, heavy, fuelguzzling and is not even advantaged by an ancient certification.


Oh I agree. But the argument in old forum posts was that the *market* for the 757 was niche. It wasn't worth re-engining. There weren't going to be enough sales to make it worthwhile.
My point is that the *market* seems to be robust for a high capacity narrowbody, one that might even be able to fill a high fraction of 757 roles. So the original comments on the *market* being niche were incorrect.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:24 pm

This is great news for passengers. While 30-31 inches in economy isn't great, having a wider seat and more shoulder makes the pitch bearable.
I see many people who say the 757 had no market and that the 739ER and A321 can perform 95% of the 757 mission. It can do that from a passenger seat count perspective. They're both decent substitutes, poor replacements. We can get in a little bit of mail or cargo on the 900ER ATL-SEA, but not much. After pax, bags and fuel, we can still put almost 5 tons of mail and cargo on the 757. We tried using the 900ER on SEA-HNL and ended up having to drop in a 767 for a minute to get all the bags and cargo we had to leave behind because the 900ER couldn't take it.

My curiosity peaks to wonder if DL will take the opportunity that LR gives with the higher MTOW to be able to take the mail and cargo that the 757s do on transcons?


Mullenburg and co aren't doing well. They should have launched NSA when they had a chance instead of waiting to see what Airbus was going to do.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
WIederling
Posts: 8490
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm

Chemist wrote:
My point is that the *market* seems to be robust for a high capacity narrowbody, one that might even be able to fill a high fraction of 757 roles. So the original comments on the *market* being niche were incorrect.


Grammar issue :-)

1: The market for a 757 was niche.
2: The market for an efficient 757 size frame existed all along.

3: A321 with NEO engines is a product that fits 2 :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8330
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:54 pm

We are near the end of 2017. So in 7 years, on Dec 31, 2024....how many Boeings will be in DL's fleet?

The 739ERs and maybe a few 738s left. Is that it? Would 717, 757, 767 be all gone?

SCARY to think.....FOR SOME
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2814
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:58 pm

727LOVER wrote:
We are near the end of 2017. So in 7 years, on Dec 31, 2024....how many Boeings will be in DL's fleet?

The 739ERs and maybe a few 738s left. Is that it? Would 717, 757, 767 be all gone?

SCARY to think.....FOR SOME


No way will 717s be gone, and I think some of the newest 757s may still be flying by then. Also, the 767-400 and 777s will still likely (almost certainly) be flying as well, so a very sizable Boeing fleet (250-300+ aircraft) will still be flying in DL colors for many years to come.

Jeremy
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2506
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:05 pm

SESGDL wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
We are near the end of 2017. So in 7 years, on Dec 31, 2024....how many Boeings will be in DL's fleet?

The 739ERs and maybe a few 738s left. Is that it? Would 717, 757, 767 be all gone?

SCARY to think.....FOR SOME


No way will 717s be gone, and I think some of the newest 757s may still be flying by then. Also, the 767-400 and 777s will still likely (almost certainly) be flying as well, so a very sizable Boeing fleet (250-300+ aircraft) will still be flying in DL colors for many years to come.

Jeremy


The 717's will be gone as soon as DL's legal dept can figure a way to dance around the C Series tariffs.
I'm thinking DL will end up leasing C series from some off shore entity , with foreign registration ( Ireland . Bermuda) ?

I also think the 777 fleet will be gone sooner than later. The A359's can replace them.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:10 pm

What's the difference between the LR and the 'ordinary one' other than plumbing in the 3 act's?
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:10 pm

airbazar wrote:
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
:duck: :duck: :duck:


:checkmark:

Agreed. The 757 is one of the most versatile planes of it's time.
 
LawAndOrder
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:29 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
Well, there goes a potential major customer for Boeing's MOM, Congrats to Airbus for pulling this off, I wonder how much of those options might be converted to A320NEO/CSeries/"A322" when it all pans out.


DL still has more 767's to replace that the 339s wont be directly replacing. Plus the press release said nothing about this order replacing the 757's. I think there still may be hope. I doubt DL plans on putting all of their TatL and medium international flying on a narrowbody.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:33 pm

evank516 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
:duck: :duck: :duck:


:checkmark:

Agreed. The 757 is one of the most versatile planes of it's time.


A time that is gone...
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:40 pm

I thought there is no free A320NEO production capacity in 2020. Will Airbus increase the production rate even more than announced so far?
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8364
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:53 pm

parapente wrote:
What's the difference between the LR and the 'ordinary one' other than plumbing in the 3 act's?


A higher MTOW.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2914
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: CNN: Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
This order is all about the engines. The GE product is more expensive to buy and operate. GE allows very little outside repair authorization. PW id just the opposite, They will give DL the repair work on both company engines and contract work. We will make money on that engine. With the GE we could only teardown ad assemble.


So why couldn't DL become a MRO partner at GE? Rolls-Royce doesn't allow custom maintenance either, unless the airline joins the MRO network.

GE doesn't like to give out repair authorization to outside MRO. All they want you to do is dissemble the engine, send the parts to them that need rework. They do the repairs and send parts back for you to reassemble. The rework step is where the cash flow is. Pratt and Rolls are allowing DL to do the rework on DL motors and customer motors.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2914
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Delta orders 100 P&W powered A321neo aircraft, plus 100 options

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:05 pm

There has been very little mentioned about the scope of the PW MRO work. I have been told it is a 30 year deal for 180 engine visits a year. roughly 1/3 would be DL fleet engines and the rest customer engines. That is a lot of in sourcing coming with these airplanes. I would guess the money coming in from these visits will have a huge impact on the true cost of these planes.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos