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Planeyguy
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What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:42 am

I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:02 pm

I don’t think there is a title to claim. A comment like Airbus has taken over from Boeing as the dominant company is just silly. It is a close duoply.

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Samrnpage
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:12 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I don’t think there is a title to claim. A comment like Airbus has taken over from Boeing as the dominant company is just silly. It is a close duoply.

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What about future orders? Its more than just deliveries - boeing and boeing loyalists need to realise that Airbus have boeing on the back foot now.
 
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Ty134A
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Well in a certain way it is going to be hard to compete strait on with the A321 in it's class. Our fathers and meanwhile grandfathers have not been stupid while designing 737s, Fokker 28s, DC-9s Tu-154s etc. They knew what could be done with aluminum and could do decent aerodynamics. The A320srs is by far the most outstanding airliner in terms of lessins learned for the past. All thereafter will be optimization only in terms of engines and maybe some more advanced computer design. It will be a tradeoff between a certain mission and allround capabilities. If they feel the need to go into carbon fibre, then this will be a different game again, but with AL alloys we are pretty much at limits. If you make the frame lighter, it won't br able to carry as much per meter fuselage than current designs. The best example is Fokker 100 vs Embraer 195, while the Fokker is a tank, the Embraer has reductions back and forth for it's gain in performance. I think we will see this coming as well.

Maybe we will also see same fuselages with different wings, one better for short haul, one better for longer ranges. But the MAX and NEO are pretty much at their limits, improving their current capabilities would mean a tradeoff one for another. Same for new designs. We will see how MS21 will do, in it I see a lot of these tradeoffs for better fuel consumption but less versatile operating ranges, eg. a far back cg, etc.

This is also where I see the difficulties in a MOM kind of plane. The friction between single aisle, double aisle and crazy fuselage stretches is exactly where we currently have no MOM plane. There were some crossovers in the past, 753 or A300, both somehow very capable but well, you know...

Maybe we will see a carbon fibre DC8 style super long twin for the 788 operation envelope, that could be a winner, but again not for long range. I don't see the long fuselage as a limiting factor, maybe boarding takes 10 minutes longer, but cleaning will take less time and so on... we will see, but this is the area in which Boeing canbplay aroune.
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:42 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?


Wow! Don't forget Boeing has way more military business than Airbus, but I think you mean in the field of commercial airliners.
Each manufacturer has stronger and weaker products in their line-up but the duopoly will more or less endure around the fifty percent each mark if for no other reason that when one product has a very full order book, the opposition can offer earlier delivery slots etc.
(Unless one manufacturer launches an absolute lemon of course - unlikely these days!)
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:43 pm

I wouldn't say they have taken over as the dominant company, what certainly has happened in the last approximately 15 years is that there is no longer a dominant company. The previous dominant Boeing is now part of a duopoly, they were the dominant company especially in commercial aviation for nearly 30 years. What can they do to regain the title?
That is a very good question and I think apart from the opinion of a supreme optimist the answer is that they can't.
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:54 pm

The market = the airlines will not allow that either Airbus or Boeing will be come the clear dominant company. The current duopoly will only be broken if a new player will enter the market with a similar product line-up to Airbus and Boeing. Therefore it is interesting how the Chinese developments will progress.

Between Airbus and Boeing we could see the current duopoly remain for now with a slight Boeing edge in wide body segment and a Airbus edge in the narrow body segment. As engine technology will remain the main factor for new airplane developments it will not be possible for either companies to really make a big difference. The airlines will demand that new engine technology will be available on the planes of both companies.
 
Danny
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:18 pm

They need to go back to what they used to do - build superior airplanes rather play play politics and litigation.
 
Noshow
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Build some bigger 737-follow on that is based on 787 technology and the 777X production robots. Optimize the narrowbody-diameter by using CFRP to carry cargo containers. Maybe provide modular wing sizes. Not everybody needs to go transpacific all the time.
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:14 pm

First off i disagree with the statement that Airbus has a dominant position. So far this year Boeing has more orders and for the last few years Boeing has been delivering more planes. I am not saying Boeing is dominant, i am saying that no one is dominant.

With that said, Boeing can do more since Airbus has the bigger backlog. Airbus has significantly increased its market share. I see two areas of opportunity for Boeing. First off, Airbus has received orders for 400+ planes from Indigo partners, Air Asia and IndiGo. Airbus has done well winning huge orders from growing LCCs. I see these ask risky orders from airlines, but Airbus is willing to take risk. I also see significant success with leasing companies. Boeing is catching up, but lessors have ordered large numbers of A330s and A320s.
 
Noise
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:20 pm

For starters, the can introduce a newly-designed narrowbody aircraft instead of constantly refreshing the 50-year old 737...
 
WIederling
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:20 pm

fsxfan38 wrote:
Build a 747 that runs on vegetable oil and BAM! The queen of the skies is back lol!


That would be about as smelly as a Belgian coach :-=)
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:24 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
First off i disagree with the statement that Airbus has a dominant position. So far this year Boeing has more orders and for the last few years Boeing has been delivering more planes.


So you think the quarterly view on things global is all there is to it?
Winning every battle and loosing the war. hehe.
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keesje
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:25 pm

Noshow wrote:
Build some bigger 737-follow on that is based on 787 technology and the 777X production robots. Optimize the narrowbody-diameter by using CFRP to carry cargo containers. Maybe provide modular wing sizes. Not everybody needs to go transpacific all the time.


Probably. Something 10% more efficient than a A321NEO from the start.

First off, Airbus has received orders for 400+ planes from Indigo partners, Air Asia and IndiGo. Airbus has done well winning huge orders from growing LCCs.


I think the legacy carriers are switching to A320/21s too. The A350 has taken a huge chunck out of the WB segment and the A350-1000 is coming on-line.
Last edited by keesje on Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WIederling
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:26 pm

Noise wrote:
For starters, the can introduce a newly-designed narrowbody aircraft instead of constantly refreshing the 50-year old 737...


spending ( even large summs ) on astro turfing and opinion formers to guide shareholders
to pressure management boards into the right direction is so much cheaper.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeyguy
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:32 pm

Noise wrote:
For starters, the can introduce a newly-designed narrowbody aircraft instead of constantly refreshing the 50-year old 737...

Well, they did try to get the Y1 off the grounds.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:36 pm

IMHO Boeing's biggest mistake and the biggest hole in their offerings is a B757 & B767 replacement. If they had modernized versions for those, especially the B757 it would be a huge seller today.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:47 pm

WIederling wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
First off i disagree with the statement that Airbus has a dominant position. So far this year Boeing has more orders and for the last few years Boeing has been delivering more planes.


So you think the quarterly view on things global is all there is to it?
Winning every battle and loosing the war. hehe.


The original posted said that Airbus has a dominant position. I disagree. I dont see how a company can be in a dominant position when its competitor is both selling and delivering more airplanes.

It is a duopoly. Neither is dominant.
 
stburke
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:19 pm

Danny wrote:
They need to go back to what they used to do - build superior airplanes rather play play politics and litigation.

Bingo. Quit legislating and start innovating.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:48 pm

Boeing can start by actually developing a true 757 replacement, instead of this bastardized 737MAX10 that can't cut it for a lot of the routes the airlines are using 757's for...and the ones that were heavy on the 757's are now running to the 321 (i.e. Delta). Then, they can continue by actually conducting better sales pitches instead to any and all airlines...and not getting into the political squabbles.
 
surfdog75
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:55 pm

They bet the farm that the 737 could be made into a good 757 replacement. Airlines tried it and it just isn’t doing the job they had hoped in many cases. They have a huge hole in the large narrow body segment. I worry that BA is putting far too much emphasis on the present day bottom line and it’s stock price and mortgaging the future. If I were king there I would reinvigorate the engineering department and focus on making the awesome products they have a history of making for the future.
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:57 pm

In this A.net reality A can never be better than B. One can cherry pick the favourite facts and repeat them over and over again. One thing is for sure that B will never be dominant again because A is going nowhere. A duopoly that is but it would be much more interesting with one or two additional parties, unfortunately this won´t happen.
 
Mutt
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:59 pm

I have flown nothing but Boeing planes in my career, so I tend to be biased, but there's no mistaking Boeing Commercial has their head so impossibly far up their @ss,
relative to the single-isle, that I don't see any amount of proctologists being able to remove it - it is embarrassing and it hurts to watch.

The only solution is to replace the 737 - which should have already been done.
Good luck to Boeing in trying to address the MoM *and* narrowbody market in the time - and budget - they need to.
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:06 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?


What are you basing this claim off of?? Be specific.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:07 pm

1) Write off the money already spent on 777X and shut down the program
2) Renegotiate with Washinton state to keep incentives for MoM.
3) Build a MoM based on 787.quickly, No clean slate.
All posts are just opinions.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:21 pm

RalXWB wrote:
In this A.net reality A can never be better than B. One can cherry pick the favourite facts and repeat them over and over again. One thing is for sure that B will never be dominant again because A is going nowhere. A duopoly that is but it would be much more interesting with one or two additional parties, unfortunately this won´t happen.

I thought it was the other way round in A.net. At least Boeing supporters accept that the product line has some gaps and deficiencies that can be better filled or replaced, A supporters on the other hand think A is perfect with everything they do.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:22 pm

What Boeing needs now is to stop being McDonnell Douglas and shred that MD culture off.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:27 pm

How about dumping the yoke and using sidesticks .. oh ok.. not invented here..
It must be a pain for ultra long haul.. its only probably used for 10 minutes per flight.

The 737 fuselage goes back to the 707, time for a new middle of market using 787 technology.
Although in their defense if the 737 is still selling so why bother?
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:56 pm

Danny wrote:
They need to go back to what they used to do - build superior airplanes rather play play politics and litigation.

Hear hear.

I remember when Boeing built the best with leading edge technology.
They know how ... they just need to do it. Historically, Boeing has been very traditional. The 787 changed that, it was leaps ahead for them. Now ... make the same leap with the 797.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
JHwk
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:59 pm

While I agree that neither player is truly dominant, Airbus has a better hand right now than Boeing. Long-term success likely hinges on the 737 replacement and its positioning; personally I think the MoM is going to be a distraction as the real investment required is unlikely to translate into sufficient sales to make a material impact-- Airbus can cover the short-range missions more effectively with a stretch of the 321 and the longer range missions will inherently creep up to existing widebody territory. Rising interest rates might change the equation as well.
 
LTCM
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:15 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?


Aerospace? In that regard Boeing is still very much the dominant company with revenue ~40% higher than what Airbus achieves.
 
727200
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:16 pm

The original post is a personal opinion, of which we all have.

Clearly Boeing is outselling Airbus and has for a while. But perhaps, and there is strong sentiment for this, Airbus gains were the result of the current investigation that is going on and Airbus admitting that they have paid them. Coincidentally their CEO is retiring before the results become public; not good for them. The reality is they will face some form of sanctions and those "sales" that allowed them to gain ground on Boeing could be voided. Heads are definitely going to roll in Toulouse.

As for the growth in 320/321 sales, the profit margins on small NB are very meek and a company this size cannot survive on them. The real money is in WB aircraft. Boeing wins that battle hands down.

As for technology, what has AB done? They took an old design, added CF wings and a few other things and have tried to pass it off as a new plane. Not a new CF plane, but an old one. And all those sales of that model, lets see how many were financially induced.

And finally that big albatross called a 380 that can't be given away let alone sold and has only been ordered by a handful of carriers. HUGE drain on profits and has never made a penny for them and with old ones coming off lease that are going to storage, only further depresses prices.

So what's this about AB being ahead?
 
Arion640
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:23 pm

The 787 is the only true success Boeing have had in the last few years. 747-8I, 737MAX and 777X aren't exactly dominating the market.
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:30 pm

Thank you, 727 200, for your objective opinions! Quite refreshing to meet someone with such new and revelatory views

Here on a.net, opinion is discredited as childish fanboy-ism, unless it is backed up by some evidence and/or facts. So I invite you to either provide justification for your claims, or admit that your remarks are just your own blinkered opinion!
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:40 pm

Mutt wrote:
I have flown nothing but Boeing planes in my career, so I tend to be biased, but there's no mistaking Boeing Commercial has their head so impossibly far up their @ss,
relative to the single-isle, that I don't see any amount of proctologists being able to remove it - it is embarrassing and it hurts to watch.

The only solution is to replace the 737 - which should have already been done.
Good luck to Boeing in trying to address the MoM *and* narrowbody market in the time - and budget - they need to.


Boeing just announced plans to buy back IIRC about $14 billion worth of stock. They could afford to do both a new NB and MOM, but they act now strictly as a profit center for stockholders and upper management - in the long run a bankrupt business plan.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
727200
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:53 pm

Arion, really?

The 737 MAX has 4,000 orders from 92 customers.

777X has 326 orders.

777 as a whole has 1.526 orders.

747-8/8F has 122 since 2005.

747-all has 1,536 orders.

Now what did you want to say isn't selling?
 
DarthLobster
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:03 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
What Boeing needs now is to stop being McDonnell Douglas and shred that MD culture off.


Huh???
 
d8s
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:19 pm

Noise wrote:
For starters, the can introduce a newly-designed narrowbody aircraft instead of constantly refreshing the 50-year old 737...


You mean like the 35 year old A320 family?
 
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SQ22
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:33 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I don’t think there is a title to claim. A comment like Airbus has taken over from Boeing as the dominant company is just silly. It is a close duoply.

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I fully agree with you. I would just have used a different wording instead of the word silly.

Please keep in mind we do not need another usual B vs. A discussion.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:43 pm

Narrow Bodies are bread and butter of both manufacturers. WBs and VLAs are just for pride.

Two good things happened to Boeing. #1 Airbus has also hooked on to ME kool-aid and built a bigger A350. #2 GTF issues.

Imagine if Airbus opted to build MoM to compete with 787 and GTF never had problems. This gives an opening to Boeing.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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BayAreaLen
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:46 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?


This being just my second ever post on A-net, after being a decade long reader, and much like my first ever post, I need to point out how absurdly slanted this message board is to Airbus. "the dominant aerospace company in the world..." That makes me laugh, as I think about all the rugged, dispatch reliable Boeing jets that are in the skies right now as I write this.

How about that nifty A350 that calls itself XWB (Extra Wide Body?) It's laughable, considering that the mighty triple seven is the true wider body that absolutely dominates the large twin category with proven reliability of the 77W and sheer power to carry more people, with more of their things, further, and with better reliability. Oh yeah, then lets remember for a moment that the 77X is coming, which will the farthest flying and most efficient twin engine... Ever!

Or we can talk about the most boring plane in the sky, the A320 family, plagued by occasional glitches of automation while the Boeing 737 of any generation, MAX or otherwise, is already airborne while the 320's are rebooting their computers causing a maintenance delay. I won't even mention the better operating costs of the lighter 737 family here, because after all, we are aviation enthusiasts, so, who cares?

Or even the hod rod 757's that are still flying passengers, reliably and out of shorter airfields than their Airbus competitors, even to this day, after such a long service life that keeps on going because it's a rugged, Boeing built masterpiece. Oh wait, Airbus doesn't have a true competitor to the hot rod 757, and no, that boring and slow 321 most certainly doesn't come close.

I can go on longer, as I have not yet even brought up the proven workhorse that is the 767, or the long haul king that is the 787, but I think I've hurt enough of Airbus fan feelings already, so I'll be courteous and proper, and leave it at that.
 
WIederling
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:51 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
I thought it was the other way round in A.net. At least Boeing supporters accept that the product line has some gaps and deficiencies that can be better filled or replaced, A supporters on the other hand think A is perfect with everything they do.


Can I borrow your "warmly psychedelic coloured" specs please? :-)

777!
Murphy is an optimist
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:57 pm

727200,

727200 wrote:
And while you are at it do a little more research in order to have a clear understanding of what the 350 structural composition is. Pretty obvious AB just took an old plane design, added a few upgrades and resold it. So much for AB technology.


That's a pretty one-sided view, if you don't mind me saying so. There's a lot of exciting technology in all of the recently created airplanes, and I'd say the 350 is on par with the best of other new planes in bringing technology forward.
 
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:06 pm

d8s wrote:
Noise wrote:
For starters, the can introduce a newly-designed narrowbody aircraft instead of constantly refreshing the 50-year old 737...


You mean like the 35 year old A320 family?



A lot can happen in 15 years. Also, keep in mind, the 737 is based on the 707 which is a 60 year old design. So, now its a 25 year diffence between the two...
 
Polarisguy
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:
The 787 is the only true success Boeing have had in the last few years. 747-8I, 737MAX and 777X aren't exactly dominating the market.


So this is what Boeing should build on. 787 is a breakthrough in materials and performance. It should be a no brainer to use that platform for the MOM. Why try to keep reinventing the wheel.

One of my criticisms of BA is their incredibly long lead times for new models as well as Long delivery times once they get a plane to market. AB seems to have cut those areas and they then look more responsive. This is an area of opportunity for BA should they decide to participate
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:55 pm

Boeing has 2 customers in the U.S. with only Boeing 737s in their fleets, and these 2 customers are Southwest Airlines and Sun Country Airlines. Southwest currently has 701 Boeing 737's in its fleet, has 23 additional 737-800's on order, and has at least 188 737 MAX planes on order. On the other hand, Sun Country doesn't currently have any orders for 737 MAX 8 planes, but Boeing does have an opportunity to sell Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes to Sun Country since Sun Country only operates Boeing 737 NG's and nothing else.
 
evank516
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:03 pm

757 MAX anyone?
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:30 pm

evank516 wrote:
757 MAX anyone?


What engines are you going to hang on it??
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
I feel like Airbus have overtaken Boeing to be the dominant aerospace company in the world with many more airlines choosing Airbus over Boeing. So what do you guys think that Boeing could do to reclaim the title?


Boeing should not try to reclaim any title. The customer base does not want one aircraft supplier to be dominant and thus have pricing power over them. They like the competitive duopoly. Nobody, not even Boeing should want to return to the near monopoly B had during the 1980s.

Both A and B should stay competitive, offer good products, remain financially healthy and avoid delusions of dominance.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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Jayafe
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Re: What can Boeing do to get an edge over Airbus?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:17 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
evank516 wrote:
757 MAX anyone?


What engines are you going to hang on it??


And where are you gonna take from the tools to build it?

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