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mmo
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Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:35 am

What an about face for MOL and FR. Let's see if it is a real promise or only an attempt to avoid more labor discontent.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -by-pilots
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
mmo
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:02 pm

Why was this thread locked? This topic is completely different from the ongoing thread. The ongoing thread is about threatened strikes. This is about a massive change in FR's management and MOL's approach to dealing with unions. Who ever is making these decisions might want to read a little more closely about just what the tread is about.!!!!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:16 pm

Disgaree, it's about the same thing. FR employees threatened to strike and since FR now recognize the unions (or at least claim to)
those employees have revoked their threat to strike. We don't need a gazillion smaller threads about the (more or less) same topic
because that will just lead to the same discussion in multiple threads.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
f4f3a
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:37 pm

Great news hopefully this can bring in local contracts and improve conditions at fr
 
787Driver
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:32 pm

mmo wrote:
What an about face for MOL and FR. Let's see if it is a real promise or only an attempt to avoid more labor discontent.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -by-pilots


LOL its all a smoke screen. Now they conveniently want to "recognise" the unions. After the season holidays it'll be a different story. Just wait and see. Don't let MOL fool you. I really hope the pilots will go on strike anyway to put pressure on RYR management during the negotiations.
 
mmo
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:38 pm

I agree 100%, I am just curious if the IAPA will go ahead on the 20th? However, if MOL & CO, do renege they will certainly have some bad press to deal with. But, then again, MOL's mantra is there is no such thing as bad press!!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
blueflyer
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:14 pm

787Driver wrote:
LOL its all a smoke screen. Now they conveniently want to "recognise" the unions. After the season holidays it'll be a different story. Just wait and see. Don't let MOL fool you. I really hope the pilots will go on strike anyway to put pressure on RYR management during the negotiations.

I think it would be a pretty shortsighted move by MOL. It would work this winter, but come next summer, the pilots will be striking unless and until they receive everything they've asked for.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:44 pm

Yeah, I doubt they'll go back on their word as that will destroy any belief next time. This must've been a very big fat rat for O'Leary to swallow.

Anyways, props to the union members.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:49 pm

Does the EU not have rules on union recognition? In the US (which isn't exactly labor friendly), if a group votes to unionize within the parameters set by the National Labor Relations Act, then the employer has to recognize the union and negotiate with them directly. You can't just choose whether to recognize or not. I'm surprised there isn't an equivalent requirement in the EU. It seems crazy that an employer can just voluntarily choose whether or not to acknowledge a union.
 
Egerton
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:57 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Does the EU not have rules on union recognition? In the US (which isn't exactly labor friendly), if a group votes to unionize within the parameters set by the National Labor Relations Act, then the employer has to recognize the union and negotiate with them directly. You can't just choose whether to recognize or not. I'm surprised there isn't an equivalent requirement in the EU. It seems crazy that an employer can just voluntarily choose whether or not to acknowledge a union.


Why crazy? UK for one does not operate a Stalinist system, at least not yet. Most folk in the UK have voted with their feet, against unions. But that still leaves the state sector as the main source of union income via the dues paid by members. There is a law against the closed shop which used to force the unwilling to join the resident union and and pay union dues.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:30 am

There is no such Thing as a closed shop. Several unions can compete and no employeee can be forced to join a uion.

It depends on the employer, if that employer act like MOL and FR, even I would have joined a union
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Aesma
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:31 pm

I'd like a clarification too, I don't see how an employer cannot recognize an union, unless maybe if that union has too few members in the company ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
eicvd
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 pm

Great, hopefully this all leads to a better working environment that enables FR to grow even further.
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leghorn
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:59 pm

the share price is taking a hammering for no good reason. It is down about 18% in the last week. Any agreement that comes isn't going to drastically increase pilot pay so the cost base is protected. I'm buying shares at this price.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:32 pm

has anyone heard the latest News? Hell has been frozen over
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polywad6963
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:10 pm

Looks like Irish pilots got recognized by FR and won't strike, and German pilots were striking and all 16 flights are cancelled out of Germany. I am in the US, but I believe thats what I read online from Ruters.
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:49 pm

polywad6963 wrote:
Looks like Irish pilots got recognized by FR and won't strike, and German pilots were striking and all 16 flights are cancelled out of Germany. I am in the US, but I believe thats what I read online from Ruters.


I'm in Europe and can confirm
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:00 pm

Vereinigung Cockpit are messing Ryanair about.
They brought two "reps" who aren't employed by Ryanair and are actually currently in dispute with Ryanair in the courts(at least one of them, the other is definitely on bad terms with Ryanair and in a vindictive mood).

16 planes affected for four hours but it will really mess up Ryanair's schedules as those planes need to be elsewhere in Europe after that 4 hour strike and they won't be there.

I listened to the German Tageschau just now and they explained why the strike is happening. As most Germans would be in Unions or Works Councils and understand how German Industrial Relations generally work distinct from the public in other European Countries where Unions don't have much presence I doubt Cockpit will be getting much sympathy from the Public.

It also further convinced me that when the Pilots get what they want they will provide no assistance to Cabin Crew whose lot in life is an awful lot more sorry than that of a pilot.
 
Trip
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:30 pm

leghorn wrote:
Vereinigung Cockpit are messing Ryanair about.


They can't by messing Ryanair about any more than O'Leary messes his staff about. You get the union you deserve.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:31 pm

They intentionally brought along two negotiators who they know would be totally unacceptable to Ryanair thereby engineering an excuse to go on strike and leave thousands of people stranded.
Despicable behaviour by Vereinigung Cockpit but no less than the German travelling public would expect of them.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:24 pm

The strike turned out to be a damp squib.
http://www.zeit.de/news/2017-12/22/luft ... n-22032803

It seems that Vereinigung Cockpit didn't receive the unequivocal support that they were hoping for.

Ryanair pilots have been watching from the sidelines as that Union has been turning everyones live upsidedown elsewhere over the last number of years so I'd guess they'd like to see what Ryanair are genuinely willing to offer in Germany rather than getting militant.
 
alm1
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:09 pm

Those pilots that did strike this morning should be moved to a nice new unionized base in Lappeenranta (or similar).
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:07 am

Still no explanation about what "recognizing pilot unions" means, can someone help ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
klakzky123
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Re: Ryanair to recognize pilot unions

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:41 am

Aesma wrote:
Still no explanation about what "recognizing pilot unions" means, can someone help ?


I read up on this. Apparently most European countries simply don't have laws that explicitly govern recognition of unions. Some are better than others but few have the clear cut rules that the US has. Generally, there is an understanding where employers should recognize unions formed among the company's workforce but in general, bargaining with those entities isn't actually mandated.

The history of this is rather interesting. The US rules on labor recognition stem from what was a particularly violent period of opposition to organized labor in the early 1900s. In an effort to stop what was effectively organized violence against unions (among other disputes) and retaliation by union members, the National Labor Relations Act mandated that companies must recognize and negotiate with unions if a majority of a particular class of workers chooses to form or join a union and it clarified the process that workers must follow to form or join a union. Europe has a much longer history of organized labor and collective bargaining so there is a cultural acceptance of unions whereas the US's very checkered history with organized labor resulted in very specific rules.

The EU itself is silent on the topic as there hasn't been an European legislation on this topic. And this is the crux of the issue. Ryanair previously argued that all of its employees fell under Irish labor law. Conveniently, Ireland does not require that an employer recognize a union. Irish law states that every employee has the right to join a union and that every employer has the right to refuse recognition of labor unions. The European Court of Justice ruled against Ryanair and stated that FR employees were governed by the labor law of their base rather than Ireland which meant that FR now had to deal with the labor laws of other European countries. The UK, for example, has an arbitration board that unions can appeal to in order to force an employer to recognize them. Similar concepts exist in other European countries. FR could either fight legal battles across Europe (and most likely lose) while simultaneously poisoning the well with these soon to be recognized unions or they could surrender and try and salvage this relationship. They clearly did the latter.

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