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AA321T
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:50 am

ual763 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
frontierflyer wrote:
Yikes , isn't that going to put the planes out if service ?


Yeah. They're a royal pain to repack.

I do wonder though, if the slides were deployed by upset passengers/crew, or if they were instructed to, due to the evacuation.

My Delta flight attendant friend is reporting they were instructed to blow slides. Not sure how many aircraft were instructed to do so however.
 
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klm617
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:52 am

Cubsrule wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
There are virtually no destinations outside the southeast and Latin America that have “little to no service outside of through ATL.”

And even that misses the point, I think. The choices for many of us 350+ days per year are something like a 60 minute connection at ATL that is very likely to operate as scheduled and a 120 minute connection at MSP that isn’t likely to be any more on schedule. Why is ATL not the smart choice?

Do you seriously need me to make a list of cities for you, Cubs? Are you seriously downplaying one of the most dense areas of the country that also has the fewest hub airports servicing it? And the area with the most international service from the U.S.?


I missed where UA flies IAD-MGM and AA flies ORD-SCL. It makes no sense to criticize ATL because it has lots of service to cities where a focus on ATL makes geographical sense. Every carrier does that at every hub. AA doesn’t fly ORD-CLL or PHL-TLH either.


For anything moving east of west north of the Mason-Dixon line ATL does not make geographical sense. As far as Europe and Asoa the only connections that make geographical sense ore those from the deep south like FL, LA, AL and MS otherwise DTW and JFK are much better options geographical sense. The only place that ATL makes sense is up and down the Eastern Seaboard Latin America, The Caribbean and South America. Mexico is really a crap shoot because in mos cases in the Delta system you will find yourself back tracking so there is no real great hub to get there from most of their network.
 
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klm617
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:54 am

Cubsrule wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

There are virtually no destinations outside the southeast and Latin America that have “little to no service outside of through ATL.”

And even that misses the point, I think. The choices for many of us 350+ days per year are something like a 60 minute connection at ATL that is very likely to operate as scheduled and a 120 minute connection at MSP that isn’t likely to be any more on schedule. Why is ATL not the smart choice?


So let me ask you this at the world busiest airport you have 60 minute connections which is actually 45 minutes and in most cases you have to sprint to make that connection but at MSP you have 120 minutes to connect that really defies logoc of you do flight planing at Delta unless you want to force people to chose Atlanta over the other hubs. I assure if one thing goes wrong and your inbound is delayed and your destination has three RJ flights a day you're pretty much screwed at ATL give me the 120 minute contention at least that gives me a margin for error.


DL pads schedules. If the inbound departs on time, a published 60 minute connection is almost always 70+ in reality.


That's BS I just flew Delta and those are times gate to gate so their arrival and departure times are what they quote.flying time is less yes but when you include the taxi it's the same.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 352
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:55 am

Adipocere wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
One question: In the event of a complete power outage, how does the FIS handle passengers in that case? I know for inbound international flights, they can divert to another airport that has CBP, but what if that international flight (if it doesn't have pre-clearance) has already landed the moment the outage occurs? What's the contingency plan?


Passengers are usually kept on board the airplane until CBP shows up. In case of emergency pax are offloaded and then corralled into holding pens under local LE guard. No one leaves..


if you bring it this way it sounds like a cattle round up at gun point.
But there is not much difference anymore between cattle and airline passengers anymore these days.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:00 am

Cubsrule wrote:
I missed where UA flies IAD-MGM and AA flies ORD-SCL. It makes no sense to criticize ATL because it has lots of service to cities where a focus on ATL makes geographical sense. Every carrier does that at every hub. AA doesn’t fly ORD-CLL or PHL-TLH either.


That's a red herring. It isn't about whether ATL having service to unique places is proper. It's ATL having a level of DL service that no other DL hub has. That clearly makes ATL very susceptible to operational disruptions. Why can't airlines be subject to criticism for consolidating operations for primarily their benefit at the expense of consumers?
Last edited by MSPNWA on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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neomax
Posts: 945
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am

freakyrat wrote:
B747forever wrote:
If this drags on over the next 2 days, Delta and everyone holding Delta tickets will be in big trouble as the traffic picks up Thursday through Sunday next week. There wont even be any space to rebook pax on other airlines, as nearly everyone will run full flight during those days.


Time to put off that 747 farewell flight and use the airplane to clear some of the backlog.


I actually would not be surprised if they did this.
 
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neomax
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:07 am

klm617 wrote:
So let me ask you this at the world busiest airport you have 60 minute connections which is actually 45 minutes and in most cases you have to sprint to make that connection but at MSP you have 120 minutes to connect that really defies logoc of you do flight planing at Delta unless you want to force people to chose Atlanta over the other hubs. I assure if one thing goes wrong and your inbound is delayed and your destination has three RJ flights a day you're pretty much screwed at ATL give me the 120 minute contention at least that gives me a margin for error.


Tell me about it! I have no problem with ATL, but if I must be somewhere at a certain time, I always use DTW or MSP, as I'm not pressured to make the insane 45 minute connections that are way too common at ATL.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:08 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I missed where UA flies IAD-MGM and AA flies ORD-SCL. It makes no sense to criticize ATL because it has lots of service to cities where a focus on ATL makes geographical sense. Every carrier does that at every hub. AA doesn’t fly ORD-CLL or PHL-TLH either.


That's a red herring. It isn't about whether ATL having service to unique places is proper. It's ATL having a level of DL service that no other DL hub has. That clearly makes ATL very susceptible to operational disruptions. Why can't airlines be subject to criticism for consolidating operations for primarily their benefit at the expense of consumers?


If that were what happened, we could criticize. But increased connectivity benefits customers too.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:08 am

Everytime I go thru ATL to Florida; going to the rental car counter is in the back of my mind.



GF
 
CcrlR
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:12 am

KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:13 am

winginit wrote:
777Mech wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I bet Delta really wishes they still had that interline agreement with AA right now - best of luck to everyone stranded right now...


What does an AA agreement do for the passengers in ATL?


As an example, someone flying ORD-ATL-MIA on DL could be reaccomodated onto AA nonstop or over CLT. Having said that, you're correct in saying that passengers already in ATL wouldn't be benefitted.


At the time DL cancelled the interline/ticking agreement they claimed they ended the agreement because Delta's schedule reliability was superior to AA . . . .
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 am

Cubsrule wrote:
If that were what happened, we could criticize. But increased connectivity benefits customers too.


Those are not mutually exclusive. Consolidation has brought a great loss of overall connectivity.
 
777Mech
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:16 am

N717TW wrote:
winginit wrote:
777Mech wrote:

What does an AA agreement do for the passengers in ATL?


As an example, someone flying ORD-ATL-MIA on DL could be reaccomodated onto AA nonstop or over CLT. Having said that, you're correct in saying that passengers already in ATL wouldn't be benefitted.


At the time DL cancelled the interline/ticking agreement they claimed they ended the agreement because Delta's schedule reliability was superior to AA . . . .


Not quite, they said more pax were being accommodated on DL flights from AA than DL pax using AA and that it was not profitable for them at those levels.
 
B747forever
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:17 am

CcrlR wrote:
KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.


Why not go to DTW where rebooking pax to their final destination should be easier?
 
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neomax
Posts: 945
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:23 am

B747forever wrote:
CcrlR wrote:
KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.


Why not go to DTW where rebooking pax to their final destination should be easier?


Same reason BA went to IAD vs CLT.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13903
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:25 am

neomax wrote:
B747forever wrote:
CcrlR wrote:
KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.


Why not go to DTW where rebooking pax to their final destination should be easier?


Same reason BA went to IAD vs CLT.


Just checked AMS-DTW and I am surprised to learn that only Delta fly the route. Really thought KLM also use their own metal to DTW.
 
CcrlR
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 am

B747forever wrote:
CcrlR wrote:
KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.


Why not go to DTW where rebooking pax to their final destination should be easier?


DTW must be busy as well. They are handling diversions as well. MSP probably.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:28 am

kalvado wrote:
Corpsnerd09 wrote:
However, it's a minor point, WN is also big at ATL and has no agreements, but no one is criticizing them. Delta has other hubs they can use.

I wonder if WN runs a lot of connecting traffic through ATL. Those going to/from ATL have no choice but wait..
And for those connecting through ATL, I hope WN can reroute the traffic - I had an impression they can be creative with that.


Don't worry too much about WN, sure ATL is a large focus city for them, but WN's system is set up so that traffic can flow relatively seemlessly even when there is a large problem at one of their larger stations. WN has a lot of focus cities in close proximity that can be relievers for ATL in event such as this (ex MCO, TPA, BWI or even MSY, HOU, DAL, BNA, STL).

A luxury that DL does not have.....
 
jbmitt
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:29 am

Triple7Lr wrote:
Does anyone know how or if Delta(or any airline for that matter) can recuperate any loses incurred because of the outage?


Most large organizations have some sort of business interruption coverage. The question would be what the threshold is to trigger coverage. Some standard policies have a 24, 48 or 72 hour waiting period. They could have something more tailored based on number of flights impacted, revenue, etc. I'm guessing they self insure a pretty large amount, because the premium for the coverage would be high. They certainly have the finances to do that.

While ATL is a large operation for them, the other large hubs are able to operate. I selfishly have always wanted to see them be able to use CVG for irregular ops, but getting staff, equipment and capacity for key connections is easier said than done.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:34 am

777Mech wrote:
N717TW wrote:
winginit wrote:

As an example, someone flying ORD-ATL-MIA on DL could be reaccomodated onto AA nonstop or over CLT. Having said that, you're correct in saying that passengers already in ATL wouldn't be benefitted.


At the time DL cancelled the interline/ticking agreement they claimed they ended the agreement because Delta's schedule reliability was superior to AA . . . .


Not quite, they said more pax were being accommodated on DL flights from AA than DL pax using AA and that it was not profitable for them at those levels.


Yep they did say that but it is a bunch of is BS - interline rebookings are basically free money for the carrier accepting the passengers. Those pax are taking seats that would have otherwise been empty so it is inherently profitable. The AA-DL interline agreement ending was really the result of DL's hubristic corporate culture - DL thinks they are the best and take great pleasure in outmanuevering their competitors even if, after all is said and done, they are really screwing over themselves.
 
Corpsnerd09
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 am

Watching the news just heard them say DL has now cancelled 900 flights due to this ongoing event.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:45 am

CcrlR wrote:
B747forever wrote:
CcrlR wrote:
KLM621 from AMS to ATL is diverting to ORD.


Why not go to DTW where rebooking pax to their final destination should be easier?


DTW must be busy as well. They are handling diversions as well. MSP probably.

A friend just departed DTWMCI and texted me DL employees were on mandatory overtime there. If DL rules are like UA it’s four hours max past scheduled off time.
 
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litz
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:02 am

Something y'all need to realize about an outage of this magnitude ....

Purely speculation, but this comes with some knowledge of distribution infrastructure.

Something the size of ATL is a HUGE consumer ... bigger than some large towns.

You feed that from multiple HV sources, and have switching (really, really big switches) that can jump between alternate main feed sources on site (e.g., on property).

This HV then downsteps to smaller (but still massive) circuits for each major onsite consumer (ie, a terminal/concourse building), and from there stepdowns for distribution within, down to, eventually, the outlet you plug your phone charger into.

There are a few critical things here :

1) when main feeder electrical gear goes up, the energies involved basically guarantee it will be catastrophic. Google "arc flash explosion". THAT level of catastrophic.

2) When this happens, there can be overvoltage/overcurrent surges all through the system downstream, which can cause breakers to blow to protect the downstream systems. That's probably your smoke sources ... When breakers of that size trip, it's ... Energetic. Very, very energetic.

3) When repowering something this massive, you don't just plug it in and throw a switch. The repowering process has to be done in a deliberate manner to avoid surges and other issues that could take the system right back down again.

4) anything damaged from 2) also has to be repaired.

This is going to be a long, long process.

I will also add that utility distribution equipment of this size and magnitude is very highly robust and reliable.

It's quite rare for it to fail, but it DOES, like anything man-made, occasionally fail. Very rarely, but it does fail.
Last edited by litz on Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:02 am

Are passengers stuck in-transit granted compensation - hotels, meal vouchers -- anything? Does compensation depend on whether DL caused the outage, ATL airport caused the outage, or some person or entity unrelated to either DL or ATL?

I recall once that my DL flight was stuck on the tarmac for hours for some reason (I think the President was nearby). When we finally arrived in JFK, we had missed our connecting flight with no other flights until morning. DL initially refused to provide a hotel because the ground stop was issued by air traffic control rather than DL. DL relented eventually and gave us a voucher.
 
jumbojet
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:11 am

Cubsrule wrote:
[
DL pads schedules. If the inbound departs on time, a published 60 minute connection is almost always 70+ in reality.


you make is sound as if DL is the only one that pads schedules. Very amateurish thing to say. ALL airlines pad their schedules for a variety of reasons :roll:
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:13 am

litz wrote:
Something y'all need to realize about an outage of this magnitude ....

Purely speculation, but this comes with some knowledge of distribution infrastructure.

Something the size of ATL is a HUGE consumer ... bigger than some large towns.

You feed that from multiple HV sources, and have switching (really, really big switches) that can jump between alternate main feed sources on site (e.g., on property).

This HV then downsteps to smaller (but still massive) circuits for each major onsite consumer (ie, a terminal/concourse building), and from there stepdowns for distribution within, down to, eventually, the outlet you plug your phone charger into.

There are a few critical things here :

1) when main feeder electrical gear goes up, the energies involved basically guarantee it will be catastrophic. Google "arc flash explosion". THAT level of catastrophic.

2) When this happens, there can be overvoltage/overcurrent surges all through the system downstream, which can cause breakers to blow to protect the downstream systems. That's probably your smoke sources ... When breakers of that size trip, it's ... Energetic. Very, very energetic.

3) When repowering something this massive, you don't just plug it in and throw a switch. The repowering process has to be done in a deliberate manner to avoid surges and other issues that could take the system right back down again.

4) anything damaged from 2) also has to be repaired.

This is going to be a long, long process.

I will also add that utility distribution equipment of this size and magnitude is very highly robust and reliable.

It's quite rare for it to fail, but it DOES, like anything man-made, occasionally fail. Very rarely, but it does fail.



The recovery could be very difficult from a facility perspective. Baggage handling systems, CTX’s, passenger screening technology, APC kiosks, jetbridge and other infrastructure does not react well to surges and sudden losses of power. After a few big outages at LAX, it has taken days to get this stuff 100% restored. Elevators, escalators and cell antennas/ boosters are always a mess after this kind of thing.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:13 am

Narfish641 wrote:
I'm hearing that there is a heap of damage in the underground facility, must of been a terrible fire. Jesus this could take longer than expected.


I haven't read all replies yet but power to all concourses should be back on line by midnight.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am

Midwestindy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Corpsnerd09 wrote:
However, it's a minor point, WN is also big at ATL and has no agreements, but no one is criticizing them. Delta has other hubs they can use.

I wonder if WN runs a lot of connecting traffic through ATL. Those going to/from ATL have no choice but wait..
And for those connecting through ATL, I hope WN can reroute the traffic - I had an impression they can be creative with that.


Don't worry too much about WN, sure ATL is a large focus city for them, but WN's system is set up so that traffic can flow relatively seemlessly even when there is a large problem at one of their larger stations. WN has a lot of focus cities in close proximity that can be relievers for ATL in event such as this (ex MCO, TPA, BWI or even MSY, HOU, DAL, BNA, STL).

A luxury that DL does not have.....


Well, if CVG were still a decent sized DL hub...........

Anyway, I agree, I think WN is in a much better position to recover from this pretty rapidly as opposed to DL. At least I hope so, considering I have two siblings flying into BNA from MKE and LAX on Thursday and Friday respectively.
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am

I also wonder about baggage..... if baggage carousels are not working, that will be a massive mess. Wonder if the in-ground fueling system is impacted?
 
jumbojet
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 am

N717TW wrote:
[
At the time DL cancelled the interline/ticking agreement they claimed they ended the agreement because Delta's schedule reliability was superior to AA . . . .


it is and also UA for that matter. I think its fair to say that both UA and AA took a page from DL's book years ago to get their own reliability up to snuff.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 am

atcsundevil wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
When will the FAA put flight caps at ATL in order to stop this kind of stuff (one little thing going wrong causing massive disruptions)? They seemed to have no problem doing it at ORD in the mid-2000s, so why not at ATL?

There's no reason for ATL to be slot controlled. It's a massive operation, but it's also massively efficient. Five parallel runways, hundreds of gates, plenty of apron space, and efficient airspace. The only thing that generally slows the airport down is weather. Compare that to slot controlled airports like DCA or JFK/LGA (I'll even lump in EWR/TEB even though those currently don't have slot controls), which regularly go into holding even when it's VFR and a million. Add in weather, and everyone's day is ruined. ATL would need to grow a lot more before slots would even be part of the discussion.


Grow more? They are the busiest airport in the world!

No, there does need to be slot controls because a hub that has 1,000+ flights a day and is responsible for being the connection point for almost half of a particular airline's traffic is irresponsible. No hub should have more than 600-700 flights. Even AA at DFW is too much. If Delta had spread out there traffic amongst many hubs instead of routing nearly 50% of their traffic through ATL, this may not be as bad right now.
 
geologyrocks
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:30 am

This is a fluke that could have happened anywhere.

There are people who know how to run profitable airlines and people who say that big hubs are irresponsible and should be spread out. Probably maintain hubs in cesspool cities like Memphis.
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:31 am

jumbojet wrote:
N717TW wrote:
[
At the time DL cancelled the interline/ticking agreement they claimed they ended the agreement because Delta's schedule reliability was superior to AA . . . .


it is and also UA for that matter. I think its fair to say that both UA and AA took a page from DL's book years ago to get their own reliability up to snuff.



I do think it’s time to reverse this. It has helped nobody and hurt many. It does not make sense.
 
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Polot
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:34 am

ADrum23 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
When will the FAA put flight caps at ATL in order to stop this kind of stuff (one little thing going wrong causing massive disruptions)? They seemed to have no problem doing it at ORD in the mid-2000s, so why not at ATL?

There's no reason for ATL to be slot controlled. It's a massive operation, but it's also massively efficient. Five parallel runways, hundreds of gates, plenty of apron space, and efficient airspace. The only thing that generally slows the airport down is weather. Compare that to slot controlled airports like DCA or JFK/LGA (I'll even lump in EWR/TEB even though those currently don't have slot controls), which regularly go into holding even when it's VFR and a million. Add in weather, and everyone's day is ruined. ATL would need to grow a lot more before slots would even be part of the discussion.


Grow more? They are the busiest airport in the world!

No, there does need to be slot controls because a hub that has 1,000+ flights a day and is responsible for being the connection point for almost half of a particular airline's traffic is irresponsible. No hub should have more than 600-700 flights. Even AA at DFW is too much. If Delta had spread out there traffic amongst many hubs instead of routing nearly 50% of their traffic through ATL, this may not be as bad right now.


The FAA is only concerned about how well the airport can handle the number of flights when it comes to slot controls. How dependent an airline is on an airport for their network is entirely on the airline, no need for the FAA to get involved. That’s like saying the FAA should ban single hub airlines which of course will kill off hope of any new airline forming, becaus whey if that airport goes down the airlines entire operations go down.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:37 am

geologyrocks wrote:
This is a fluke that could have happened anywhere.

There are people who know how to run profitable airlines and people who say that big hubs are irresponsible and should be spread out. Probably maintain hubs in cesspool cities like Memphis.


Other airlines who don't route almost half of their traffic through a single hub don't seem to have these types of problems.........
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:44 am

klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Do you seriously need me to make a list of cities for you, Cubs? Are you seriously downplaying one of the most dense areas of the country that also has the fewest hub airports servicing it? And the area with the most international service from the U.S.?


I missed where UA flies IAD-MGM and AA flies ORD-SCL. It makes no sense to criticize ATL because it has lots of service to cities where a focus on ATL makes geographical sense. Every carrier does that at every hub. AA doesn’t fly ORD-CLL or PHL-TLH either.


For anything moving east of west north of the Mason-Dixon line ATL does not make geographical sense. As far as Europe and Asoa the only connections that make geographical sense ore those from the deep south like FL, LA, AL and MS otherwise DTW and JFK are much better options geographical sense. The only place that ATL makes sense is up and down the Eastern Seaboard Latin America, The Caribbean and South America. Mexico is really a crap shoot because in mos cases in the Delta system you will find yourself back tracking so there is no real great hub to get there from most of their network.


Yes, but airlines and passengers do not work off of "geographical sense"...all the time, and there are other factors. People will flow over ATL from out West and even north of ATL if need be. Is IST a good transfer point for US to the UK?, not at all when you consider all of the nonstops and closer Euro connecting points. Does TK offer this connection?...yes. Do passengers buy this option, yep!
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:45 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
If that were what happened, we could criticize. But increased connectivity benefits customers too.


Those are not mutually exclusive. Consolidation has brought a great loss of overall connectivity.


. . . which affects this conversation how? Consolidation removed seats from the network, which caused less overall connectivity. But that has nothing to do with DL's hub structure at ATL.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:47 am

Polot wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Grow more? They are the busiest airport in the world!

No, there does need to be slot controls because a hub that has 1,000+ flights a day and is responsible for being the connection point for almost half of a particular airline's traffic is irresponsible. No hub should have more than 600-700 flights. Even AA at DFW is too much. If Delta had spread out there traffic amongst many hubs instead of routing nearly 50% of their traffic through ATL, this may not be as bad right now.


The FAA is only concerned about how well the airport can handle the number of flights when it comes to slot controls. How dependent an airline is on an airport for their network is entirely on the airline, no need for the FAA to get involved. That’s like saying the FAA should ban single hub airlines which of course will kill off hope of any new airline forming, becaus whey if that airport goes down the airlines entire operations go down.

:checkmark: Logistical things like that aren't the FAA's concern. The FAA is concerned about safety and efficiency. Some airports simply need slots to keep traffic flows safe and manageable for ATC. However, that's generally not an issue for ATL. ATL lacks the airspace complexity of the NYC area, and doesn't have the infrastructure constraints of DCA. If an airline wants to route more than 1,000 flights a day from an airport, then that's their prerogative provided the airspace and infrastructure can safely and efficiently handle it. The FAA has no basis for which they could prevent an airline from operating however many flights through a single hub that they so desire, assuming the airport can handle it.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:49 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Are passengers stuck in-transit granted compensation - hotels, meal vouchers -- anything? Does compensation depend on whether DL caused the outage, ATL airport caused the outage, or some person or entity unrelated to either DL or ATL?

I recall once that my DL flight was stuck on the tarmac for hours for some reason (I think the President was nearby). When we finally arrived in JFK, we had missed our connecting flight with no other flights until morning. DL initially refused to provide a hotel because the ground stop was issued by air traffic control rather than DL. DL relented eventually and gave us a voucher.

What’s makes you think there’s an empty hotel room anywhere near ATL now? Plus how are any vouchers provided if no power to print them? Everyone needs keep ALL receipts from this should any sort of compensation be offered at a later time however. The scope of the thousands of people affected by this is mind boggling.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2637
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:50 am

geologyrocks wrote:
Probably maintain hubs in cesspool cities like Memphis.

That is SO not the point. Point is, DL already has multiple hubs. Total traffic/connectivity should be spread evenly among them, so that a disruption at one is not as dire as it is currently at ATL.
 
geologyrocks
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
geologyrocks wrote:
Probably maintain hubs in cesspool cities like Memphis.

That is SO not the point. Point is, DL already has multiple hubs. Total traffic/connectivity should be spread evenly among them, so that a disruption at one is not as dire as it is currently at ATL.


So Detroit and Minneapolis are good alternatives for Atlanta connections?
 
AV8AJET
Posts: 1186
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:10 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:54 am

When did BA start using the B787-9 to ATL?
 
N212R
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:03 am

litz wrote:
Something y'all need to realize about an outage of this magnitude ....

It's quite rare for it to fail, but it DOES, like anything man-made, occasionally fail. Very rarely, but it does fail.


Thanks for the very energetic post, great info!
 
airzona11
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:06 am

The busiest airport in the world is without power, this is going to cause a massive disruption. Would be the same if this was UA/AA/BA/EK etc or IAH/EWR/DFW/DXB/LHR etc.

Humorous to read some commentary. If you don't want to connect through Atlanta, you have plenty of other options.

MSPNWA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
If that were what happened, we could criticize. But increased connectivity benefits customers too.


Those are not mutually exclusive. Consolidation has brought a great loss of overall connectivity.


Be curious to see figures on lost connectivity. Assuming you mean city pairs that used to require 1-stop now requiring 2.
 
OKCDCA
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:50 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:10 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
geologyrocks wrote:
Probably maintain hubs in cesspool cities like Memphis.

That is SO not the point. Point is, DL already has multiple hubs. Total traffic/connectivity should be spread evenly among them, so that a disruption at one is not as dire as it is currently at ATL.

No, it shouldn't if that's how the airline figures they can achieve maximum profitability. While these airlines are service providers, they're also publicly traded companies whose first responsibility is to their shareholders. Obviously DL has seen multiple times where routing this much traffic through ATL has been an issue but the bean counters have determined the one-time expense associated with these events are much cheaper than employing enough staff and the other stuff associated with hubs at other locations. And depending on the outcome of the investigation into what caused this, I'm sure DL's legal team will make sure they are made whole.

Hopefully all the carriers are back on their feet in the morning and can recover from this as quickly as possible. With Christmas next weekend, I hope all the carriers are able to have smooth, efficient operations and get their customers home for the holidays.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3528
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:13 am

ADrum23 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
When will the FAA put flight caps at ATL in order to stop this kind of stuff (one little thing going wrong causing massive disruptions)? They seemed to have no problem doing it at ORD in the mid-2000s, so why not at ATL?

There's no reason for ATL to be slot controlled. It's a massive operation, but it's also massively efficient. Five parallel runways, hundreds of gates, plenty of apron space, and efficient airspace. The only thing that generally slows the airport down is weather. Compare that to slot controlled airports like DCA or JFK/LGA (I'll even lump in EWR/TEB even though those currently don't have slot controls), which regularly go into holding even when it's VFR and a million. Add in weather, and everyone's day is ruined. ATL would need to grow a lot more before slots would even be part of the discussion.


Grow more? They are the busiest airport in the world!

No, there does need to be slot controls because a hub that has 1,000+ flights a day and is responsible for being the connection point for almost half of a particular airline's traffic is irresponsible. No hub should have more than 600-700 flights. Even AA at DFW is too much. If Delta had spread out there traffic amongst many hubs instead of routing nearly 50% of their traffic through ATL, this may not be as bad right now.

And if DL didnt have a hub in ATL this wouldn’t have happened at all!

If DL finds it best for their business to run most of their flights through one airport, that is their call. If the shareholders don’t like it, they can let them know. But there are more gains than losses in having a fortress hub like ATL. This could have happened anywhere, DL isn’t the problem here.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2637
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:16 am

All I know is that it usually isn't wise for an individual or concern to put all its eggs in one basket.
 
reggiet
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:19 am

litz wrote:
Something y'all need to realize about an outage of this magnitude ....

Purely speculation, but this comes with some knowledge of distribution infrastructure.

Something the size of ATL is a HUGE consumer ... bigger than some large towns.

You feed that from multiple HV sources, and have switching (really, really big switches) that can jump between alternate main feed sources on site (e.g., on property).

This HV then downsteps to smaller (but still massive) circuits for each major onsite consumer (ie, a terminal/concourse building), and from there stepdowns for distribution within, down to, eventually, the outlet you plug your phone charger into.

There are a few critical things here :

1) when main feeder electrical gear goes up, the energies involved basically guarantee it will be catastrophic. Google "arc flash explosion". THAT level of catastrophic.

2) When this happens, there can be overvoltage/overcurrent surges all through the system downstream, which can cause breakers to blow to protect the downstream systems. That's probably your smoke sources ... When breakers of that size trip, it's ... Energetic. Very, very energetic.

3) When repowering something this massive, you don't just plug it in and throw a switch. The repowering process has to be done in a deliberate manner to avoid surges and other issues that could take the system right back down again.

4) anything damaged from 2) also has to be repaired.

This is going to be a long, long process.

I will also add that utility distribution equipment of this size and magnitude is very highly robust and reliable.

It's quite rare for it to fail, but it DOES, like anything man-made, occasionally fail. Very rarely, but it does fail.




Thanks a million LITZ for the electric outage explanation. It really painted the picture of the gravity of the possible situation.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2384
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:21 am

reggiet wrote:
litz wrote:
Something y'all need to realize about an outage of this magnitude ....

Purely speculation, but this comes with some knowledge of distribution infrastructure.

Something the size of ATL is a HUGE consumer ... bigger than some large towns.

You feed that from multiple HV sources, and have switching (really, really big switches) that can jump between alternate main feed sources on site (e.g., on property).

This HV then downsteps to smaller (but still massive) circuits for each major onsite consumer (ie, a terminal/concourse building), and from there stepdowns for distribution within, down to, eventually, the outlet you plug your phone charger into.

There are a few critical things here :

1) when main feeder electrical gear goes up, the energies involved basically guarantee it will be catastrophic. Google "arc flash explosion". THAT level of catastrophic.

2) When this happens, there can be overvoltage/overcurrent surges all through the system downstream, which can cause breakers to blow to protect the downstream systems. That's probably your smoke sources ... When breakers of that size trip, it's ... Energetic. Very, very energetic.

3) When repowering something this massive, you don't just plug it in and throw a switch. The repowering process has to be done in a deliberate manner to avoid surges and other issues that could take the system right back down again.

4) anything damaged from 2) also has to be repaired.

This is going to be a long, long process.

I will also add that utility distribution equipment of this size and magnitude is very highly robust and reliable.

It's quite rare for it to fail, but it DOES, like anything man-made, occasionally fail. Very rarely, but it does fail.




Thanks a million LITZ for the electric outage explanation. It really painted the picture of the gravity of the possible situation.


Here's a great example (on a vastly smaller scale) of essentially what's going on ... I once did an equipment install at a data center in St Louis. The owners of this facility were so proud of their redundant utility feeds, their battery holdover system, and multiple gensets ... all designed to guarantee zero downtime in the building.

Then lightning struck and destroyed the switching gear that switched power between all of these sources.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Power outage in ATL

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:23 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
There's no reason for ATL to be slot controlled. It's a massive operation, but it's also massively efficient. Five parallel runways, hundreds of gates, plenty of apron space, and efficient airspace. The only thing that generally slows the airport down is weather. Compare that to slot controlled airports like DCA or JFK/LGA (I'll even lump in EWR/TEB even though those currently don't have slot controls), which regularly go into holding even when it's VFR and a million. Add in weather, and everyone's day is ruined. ATL would need to grow a lot more before slots would even be part of the discussion.


Grow more? They are the busiest airport in the world!

No, there does need to be slot controls because a hub that has 1,000+ flights a day and is responsible for being the connection point for almost half of a particular airline's traffic is irresponsible. No hub should have more than 600-700 flights. Even AA at DFW is too much. If Delta had spread out there traffic amongst many hubs instead of routing nearly 50% of their traffic through ATL, this may not be as bad right now.

And if DL didnt have a hub in ATL this wouldn’t have happened at all!

If DL finds it best for their business to run most of their flights through one airport, that is their call. If the shareholders don’t like it, they can let them know. But there are more gains than losses in having a fortress hub like ATL. This could have happened anywhere, DL isn’t the problem here.


The point is, if they spread their connections out more, it wouldn't be quite as bad.
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