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CHI2DFW
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What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:18 am

Parker talks about hoe previous Management over cut ORD. He’s correct.

Scott Kirby left AA for UA and knows Parker’s plans for ORD. In the past few months, UA and AA have been connecting the dots and adding more regional routes.

ORD gate contracts expire in 2018 and the city is actually serious about a new terminal / gates / western access. All great news since the runway plan will be complete in 3 years.

AA still has a loyal following at ORD and is dominant in key markets (DFW, MIA, BOS, PHL, PHX, CLT, LGA-to some extent).

UA is killing AA on International routes (except for LHR).

AA needs to continue the upgauge of flights, connect the dots, and bring back some key O&D / FF routes that were dropped (HNL, MEX, FRA) add GRU, LIM, HKG or ICN (no UA in this route).

AA can use PHL as the crown Jule, but Chicagoland could care less and would rather fly UA to AMS, BRU, FRA, MUC, etc. than stop in PHL (UA gets the stronger F/J O&D and connections to fill the back).
 
stlgph
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:16 am

If Frankfurt explodes in growth because of Brexit, I can perhaps see FRA coming back, that being said, AA doesn't even fly it from JFK.

While many might applaud HNL, all it will end up doing for AA is being a 767 loaded with people paying the price match offered on Southwest.
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jasoncrh
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:36 am

Jewel not Jule
 
flyfresno
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:46 am

All they need to do is add a flight or two to FAT and all their ORD problems will be solved...
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:52 am

Isnt AA down to LHR only from ORD??

They have some bigger problems than gate contracts
 
incitatus
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:01 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
UA is killing AA on International routes (except for LHR).

AA needs to continue the upgauge of flights, connect the dots, and bring back some key O&D / FF routes that were dropped (HNL, MEX, FRA) add GRU, LIM, HKG or ICN (no UA in this route).

AA can use PHL as the crown Jule, but Chicagoland could care less and would rather fly UA to AMS, BRU, FRA, MUC, etc. than stop in PHL (UA gets the stronger F/J O&D and connections to fill the back).


UA may be killing AA in international frequencies at ORD. Whether UA is making any money in the process is a different story.

I can see AA add ORD-FRA when a partner grows a hub in FRA. Before that, no.

I can see AA add ORD-GRU when the Brazilian economy grows 50% from what it is today.
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jpetekyxmd80
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:03 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Isnt AA down to LHR only from ORD??

They have some bigger problems than gate contracts


Occasionally in the lows of winter? Possibly at times ,but the summer schedule is pretty robust.

LHR, MAN, DUB, CDG, FCO, VCE, BCN
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wenders825
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:06 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Isnt AA down to LHR only from ORD??

They have some bigger problems than gate contracts

CDG, FCO, BCN, VCE, DUB, MAN are seasonal europe routes. NRT, PEK, PVG are year round asia routes. i think their presence is just fine. IB serves MAD out of the AA terminal and AY does HEL as well. i’d say OW’s presence in ORD is solid. (this also adds on CX and RJ, though those aren’t JV partners with AA like IB and AY)

expect AA to add ORD-ATH seasonal. i’d be most impressed to see them add ICN or EZE and beat UA to the punch, since they fly neither route
 
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chepos
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:21 am

This topic seems to come up every month. Doubt ICN, HKG, FRA, etc are going to be flown out of ORD. LIM only if the LATAM JV gets approved and I see LATAM operating the flight.
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ADrum23
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:09 am

1. Restore ORD-CDG to year round.

2. Start seasonal ORD-AMS

3. Mainline service to cities such as BNA, CVG, YYZ, MSY, etc.

Those are three things I can think of off the top of my head
 
nutsaboutplanes
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:31 am

People, AA is “doing what they need to do at ORD”......they are making money. Decisions will be made based off of what the market can support and support profitably. With 10 hubs and gateways you don’t have to and nor should you serve everything from everywhere.

Some people are obsessed with pretty route maps. AIRLINES ARE OBSESSED WITH MAKING MONEY.
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Antarius
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:44 am

nutsaboutplanes wrote:
People, AA is “doing what they need to do at ORD”......they are making money. Decisions will be made based off of what the market can support and support profitably. With 10 hubs and gateways you don’t have to and nor should you serve everything from everywhere.

Some people are obsessed with pretty route maps. AIRLINES ARE OBSESSED WITH MAKING MONEY.


Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:59 pm

Antarius wrote:

Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs


Funny, I've found UA @ ORD to be the trainwrecky operation vs. AA. Especially Express vs. Eagle.
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TWFlyGuy
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:46 pm

Antarius wrote:
nutsaboutplanes wrote:
People, AA is “doing what they need to do at ORD”......they are making money. Decisions will be made based off of what the market can support and support profitably. With 10 hubs and gateways you don’t have to and nor should you serve everything from everywhere.

Some people are obsessed with pretty route maps. AIRLINES ARE OBSESSED WITH MAKING MONEY.


Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs


What makes is so bad for you? Honestly just curious. I have connected there tons and find it no worse than any other megahub. I'm referring to other 300+ flight a day ops where multiple terminals are involved. I feel like they all have their pain points. I'm thinking of DFW, [email protected], PHL, ATL, DTW, MSP, CLT, IAH, EWR...there's not glorious connecting options there.

As for [email protected], I'd love to see them build up their int'l offering more but if profitability isn't there, then it's not an option. As more 787's come online, maybe some options exist given the aircraft economics. What has really hurt int'l service is the Alliances/JVs. There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern where he explained how AA went from #1 to Paris to falling behind. This wasn't just an alliance issue but plays a part. Basically, we've come down to limited ability to serve a competing alliance hub competitively. DL has some success driven by the purchase of the PA routes. Otherwise, a lot of entrenchment.
 
FSDan
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:11 pm

wenders825 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Isnt AA down to LHR only from ORD??

They have some bigger problems than gate contracts

CDG, FCO, BCN, VCE, DUB, MAN are seasonal europe routes. NRT, PEK, PVG are year round asia routes. i think their presence is just fine. IB serves MAD out of the AA terminal and AY does HEL as well. i’d say OW’s presence in ORD is solid. (this also adds on CX and RJ, though those aren’t JV partners with AA like IB and AY)

expect AA to add ORD-ATH seasonal. i’d be most impressed to see them add ICN or EZE and beat UA to the punch, since they fly neither route


I hadn't realized that Finnair was part of the TATL JV. With the JV considered, AA does have pretty decent coverage of Europe from ORD in the summer. Winter is still thin (the fact that CDG is seasonal speaks volumes), and there are definitely some missing key markets like AMS and FRA. I wouldn't be surprised to see ORD-ATH come at some point as that is in the same vein as ORD-BCN and ORD-VCE. AA did fly ORD-EZE a number of years ago and it didn't last long, but the economy is better for it now and AA has more appropriate aircraft in the fleet (788). Still, not sure we'll see this return as it overflies DFW and MIA and probably isn't a huge business market. I wouldn't be surprised to see LA on ORD-LIM within a few years.

On the domestic front I think AA is doing exactly the right thing - connecting the most obvious missing dots (PVD, ALB, GSO, ORF, etc.) and upgauging to large RJs and mainline in many markets (see ORD-BWI, PIT, BDL, DTW, etc.). Most of the growth has been focused eastward, which makes sense given US Airways' historical strength in the East that AA can build on.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:17 pm

This topic does seem to come up on a near-monthly basis and its always around the premise of "what is needed to make AA dominant at ORD". However, no one can actually define what dominant even means or what would be the business objective of such a move. The topic is always viewed in a historical context that ignores the current consolidated route network and hub structure.
 
jbs2886
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:26 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This topic does seem to come up on a near-monthly basis and its always around the premise of "what is needed to make AA dominant at ORD". However, no one can actually define what dominant even means or what would be the business objective of such a move. The topic is always viewed in a historical context that ignores the current consolidated route network and hub structure.


It is always 1 of 2 posters, too. Of course, living in Chicago, I click every time. But, the topic discussion is the same - AA int'l is weak, AA mainline is needed to US cities, new gates will change everything, then someone comes in with an "ORD is terrible".
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Last I heard the city was no longer serious (and probably never was) about the western terminal. But the gate expansion is almost done in L and the redevelopment of current terminals is on the horizon. What are the chances during the renegotiations on leases AA gets less than it currently has and more gates are given to DL and the ULCC in favor of larger planes/ fewer regional by AE? I'm sure the city would prefer to load/unload 150+ people off of A320s/737s over 50 seat regional jets. More people = more revenue within the terminal. Also with AAs lack of INTL routes, what would they need a redeveloped T2 for? The gates they have now serve their widebodies and partners widebodies just fine.
 
RJNUT
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:33 pm

I think the final runway configuration will make ORD almost as efficient as Atlanta, save for sometimes conflicting MDW traffic.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:39 pm

Is the OP a commercial aviation consultant with access to P&L? If not, how does he know what AA needs to do or what makes him think he is in a position to say that?
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LAXdude1023
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:41 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
AA needs to continue the upgauge of flights, connect the dots, and bring back some key O&D / FF routes that were dropped (HNL, MEX, FRA) add GRU, LIM, HKG or ICN (no UA in this route).

.


Those routes were dropped because they werent profitable. Why bring them back?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:41 pm

RJNUT wrote:
I think the final runway configuration will make ORD almost as efficient as Atlanta, save for sometimes conflicting MDW traffic.


With the redesigned departure/arrival routes into both airports there really is no conflict. Anything departing ORD to the south climbs above any MDW traffic immediately. MDW traffic stays below 6,000 (I think 6,000) until it clears the ORD departure routes. Arrival routes also do not intersect. The 2 airports really do not effect each other. If I am wrong someone please correct me.
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:48 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Is the OP a commercial aviation consultant with access to P&L? If not, how does he know what AA needs to do or what makes him think he is in a position to say that?


Exactly. Now for some knowledge from old research I did:

CHI2DFW wrote:
UA is killing AA on International routes (except for LHR).


I agree with this one.
CHI2DFW wrote:
AA needs to continue the upgauge of flights, connect the dots, and bring back some key O&D / FF routes that were dropped (HNL, MEX, FRA) add GRU, LIM, HKG or ICN (no UA in this route).


So here are some thoughts that may be a few months outdated but:
HNL: Decent opportunity but I think Hawaii is getting oversaturated like TATL, even more so when WN launches service
MEX: Better served through Interjet, isnt Oneworld still trying to get them to join?
FRA: Agree with previous posts where more growth is needed
GRU: Brazilian economy needs to grow and recover more
LIM: Requires full LATAM feed on LIM end to make this happen, may not be the best use of a 763
HKG: Already served via alliance partner.
ICN: Stagnant market interms of yield and passengers.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:55 pm

Exactly PSU.DTW.SCE, LA, Chi and NYC are markets that will never have a fortress HUB.

20%-50% share in any of those markets is going to be very successful.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:00 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Exactly PSU.DTW.SCE, LA, Chi and NYC are markets that will never have a fortress HUB.


MDW?
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:01 pm

If you look at Chicago as one market SWA (MDW) does not dominate it.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Yes but you literally said chi would never have a fortress hub. MDW literally is one, despite market share.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:31 pm

OK if we want to make it just about Airports I should have said LAX, ORD and JFK will never be a fortress hub for anyone.
 
stlgph
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:37 pm

Bringing the conversation back into reality - I made an off handed comment a few months ago for "the hell of it" suggesting AA look at branding LGA-ORD as shuttle services, with the dedicated features and all that. Kind of expected it to be taken as "meh, whatever," but I saw a few others jump in and make comments in some other threads that such an idea was coming in the future.

Anything more?
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Antarius
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:46 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
nutsaboutplanes wrote:
People, AA is “doing what they need to do at ORD”......they are making money. Decisions will be made based off of what the market can support and support profitably. With 10 hubs and gateways you don’t have to and nor should you serve everything from everywhere.

Some people are obsessed with pretty route maps. AIRLINES ARE OBSESSED WITH MAKING MONEY.


Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs


What makes is so bad for you? Honestly just curious. I have connected there tons and find it no worse than any other megahub. I'm referring to other 300+ flight a day ops where multiple terminals are involved. I feel like they all have their pain points. I'm thinking of DFW, [email protected], PHL, ATL, DTW, MSP, CLT, IAH, EWR...there's not glorious connecting options there.

As for [email protected], I'd love to see them build up their int'l offering more but if profitability isn't there, then it's not an option. As more 787's come online, maybe some options exist given the aircraft economics. What has really hurt int'l service is the Alliances/JVs. There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern where he explained how AA went from #1 to Paris to falling behind. This wasn't just an alliance issue but plays a part. Basically, we've come down to limited ability to serve a competing alliance hub competitively. DL has some success driven by the purchase of the PA routes. Otherwise, a lot of entrenchment.


The delays. ORD is awful for weather and other delays.(and yes EWR is awful as well)

I'd take connecting in DFW or DTW or ATL any day.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
flyguy84
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:04 pm

Antarius wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs


What makes is so bad for you? Honestly just curious. I have connected there tons and find it no worse than any other megahub. I'm referring to other 300+ flight a day ops where multiple terminals are involved. I feel like they all have their pain points. I'm thinking of DFW, [email protected], PHL, ATL, DTW, MSP, CLT, IAH, EWR...there's not glorious connecting options there.

As for [email protected], I'd love to see them build up their int'l offering more but if profitability isn't there, then it's not an option. As more 787's come online, maybe some options exist given the aircraft economics. What has really hurt int'l service is the Alliances/JVs. There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern where he explained how AA went from #1 to Paris to falling behind. This wasn't just an alliance issue but plays a part. Basically, we've come down to limited ability to serve a competing alliance hub competitively. DL has some success driven by the purchase of the PA routes. Otherwise, a lot of entrenchment.


The delays. ORD is awful for weather and other delays.(and yes EWR is awful as well)

I'd take connecting in DFW or DTW or ATL any day.


Actually, with the new runway configuration (and new runway) ORD really isn't that bad when it comes to weather anymore. ATC does a great job getting flights in/out....
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Swadian
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:17 pm

I could see AA bring back ORD-ANC, ORD-MEX, ORD-FRA, and possibly ORD-HNL. Maybe start ORD-HND (given constraints) and ORD-AMS, then make ORD-CDG and ORD-BCN year-round?

Also upgauge some of the more major domestic routes (BOS, LGA, SFO, SEA) from 738 to A321?
 
jbs2886
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:21 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
Yes but you literally said chi would never have a fortress hub. MDW literally is one, despite market share.


MDW is not a fortress hub. A fortress hub in the commonly understood sense requires some monopolistic pricing power in the market, WN does not have that even if they have most of MDW's capacity. You have to look at MDW and ORD together - they are the same markets. MDW is not "literally" a fortress hub.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:40 pm

upgauge some larger markets (ex BNA, CVG, CMH etc) from Eagle to mainline....also get rid of as many 50 seaters as you can to markets like MSN, CID, GRR etc. Get those to be consistently on CR7 or larger. At least on the smaller/mid sized markets have an E75 as the first flight out. UA has done a good job in markets like this bringing E75 or even mainline as the early morning inbound to ORD.

Also a terminal refresh in concourses other than G would be nice too...brighter paint, colors etc.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:56 pm

stlgph wrote:
Bringing the conversation back into reality - I made an off handed comment a few months ago for "the hell of it" suggesting AA look at branding LGA-ORD as shuttle services, with the dedicated features and all that. Kind of expected it to be taken as "meh, whatever," but I saw a few others jump in and make comments in some other threads that such an idea was coming in the future.

Anything more?


The American mainline scope at LaGuardia is very limited. It could almost all be classified as “shuttle” with high frequency service to hubs and not much else. What makes ORD more special than DFW MIA DCA or CLT? The only other mainline destinations That are non-hubs are BOS and PBI.

Because of the regional operation and the high frequency, People think of LaGuardia as a big operation for American… It’s scope is quite small. JFK Is moving in that direction as well
 
Tan Flyr
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:03 pm

flyfresno wrote:
All they need to do is add a flight or two to FAT and all their ORD problems will be solved...


Agreed!!! LOL..as most have said..there are a few opportunities..but they need to be profitable or a good chance of becoming profitable.

I think FAT is one of those..and there are a few other "dots on the map" that make some sense. Otherwise, the best thing to do is upgauge equipment where you can and makes sense, work darn hard on on time performance, bags, etc.

I think the whole "customer service/ experience" area is one that can stand some attention..in almost all aspects. Making the "needed" connection at ORD or other mega hub as painless and pleasant as possible can go a long way.
 
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kordcj
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:05 pm

Antarius wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Bingo. The right frequency is one that makes money.

As a non ORD based AA EXP, I avoid it like the plague. Horrible airport to connect in. I could see ORD continuing to be right sized for o&d.. and connections routed to less trainwrecky hubs


What makes is so bad for you? Honestly just curious. I have connected there tons and find it no worse than any other megahub. I'm referring to other 300+ flight a day ops where multiple terminals are involved. I feel like they all have their pain points. I'm thinking of DFW, [email protected], PHL, ATL, DTW, MSP, CLT, IAH, EWR...there's not glorious connecting options there.

As for [email protected], I'd love to see them build up their int'l offering more but if profitability isn't there, then it's not an option. As more 787's come online, maybe some options exist given the aircraft economics. What has really hurt int'l service is the Alliances/JVs. There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern where he explained how AA went from #1 to Paris to falling behind. This wasn't just an alliance issue but plays a part. Basically, we've come down to limited ability to serve a competing alliance hub competitively. DL has some success driven by the purchase of the PA routes. Otherwise, a lot of entrenchment.


The delays. ORD is awful for weather and other delays.(and yes EWR is awful as well)

I'd take connecting in DFW or DTW or ATL any day.


A lot of people say this, and I’m always left wondering if there is another airport named O’Hare that they fly to. I fly thru ORD roughly 10x a year and I haven’t had a delay to or from there since 2011 which was because of a ground stop at LGA. Seems most base these opinions on that one time they passed thru ORD.
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IrishAyes
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:23 pm

Swadian wrote:
I could see AA bring back ORD-ANC, ORD-MEX, ORD-FRA, and possibly ORD-HNL. Maybe start ORD-HND (given constraints) and ORD-AMS, then make ORD-CDG and ORD-BCN year-round?

Also upgauge some of the more major domestic routes (BOS, LGA, SFO, SEA) from 738 to A321?


ORD-ANC may be doable with a MAX during the summer period, especially with the AA/AS relationship going the way it is. US-MEX is now dominated by DL/AM and has a ton of LCC growth, so I don't see AA returning on ORD-MEX anytime soon.

ORD-HND would come on JL, if anything, before AA.

AMS and CDG are not even daily year-round on UA. And BCN is highly seasonal. There is no need for those to come online in the winter months, if at all.
 
commavia
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Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:29 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
What makes ORD more special than DFW MIA DCA or CLT? The only other mainline destinations That are non-hubs are BOS and PBI.


What differentiates ORD among AA's various higher-frequency routes out of LGA, makes it a plausible candidate for "Shuttle" branding, are:

* Level of frequency (only other comparable AA routes of LGA are the existing "Shuttle" routes of BOS and DCA)
* Level of premium/business traffic
* Level of competition, and AA's historical and current strength on the route

jfklganyc wrote:
Because of the regional operation and the high frequency, People think of LaGuardia as a big operation for American… It’s scope is quite small. JFK Is moving in that direction as well


No, respectfully, I think many of us think of LGA as a "big operation" for AA because it is, in fact, a "big operation" for AA. AA has >160 peak day departures to 40+ destinations, comprising many of NYC's largest and most important business O&D markets. And AA's is the airport's second largest carrier with >25% market share. And for all the continuous doom and gloom, AA still has ~300 peak day departures out of NYC to 60+ nonstop markets in the U.S. and globally.
 
theasianguy
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:12 pm

kordcj wrote:
Antarius wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:

What makes is so bad for you? Honestly just curious. I have connected there tons and find it no worse than any other megahub. I'm referring to other 300+ flight a day ops where multiple terminals are involved. I feel like they all have their pain points. I'm thinking of DFW, [email protected], PHL, ATL, DTW, MSP, CLT, IAH, EWR...there's not glorious connecting options there.

As for [email protected], I'd love to see them build up their int'l offering more but if profitability isn't there, then it's not an option. As more 787's come online, maybe some options exist given the aircraft economics. What has really hurt int'l service is the Alliances/JVs. There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern where he explained how AA went from #1 to Paris to falling behind. This wasn't just an alliance issue but plays a part. Basically, we've come down to limited ability to serve a competing alliance hub competitively. DL has some success driven by the purchase of the PA routes. Otherwise, a lot of entrenchment.


The delays. ORD is awful for weather and other delays.(and yes EWR is awful as well)

I'd take connecting in DFW or DTW or ATL any day.


A lot of people say this, and I’m always left wondering if there is another airport named O’Hare that they fly to. I fly thru ORD roughly 10x a year and I haven’t had a delay to or from there since 2011 which was because of a ground stop at LGA. Seems most base these opinions on that one time they passed thru ORD.


Same here. I've flown through ORD 5 times this year and was delayed only once. That was a record flooding on a Saturday in October, and obviously was out of ordinary. Connecting D->D or D->I is incredibly easy and never more than a 10 minute walk. The parallel runway configuration has significantly improved operations. This isn't SFO, EWR, or LGA where a single cloud, puff of wind, or drop of rain can result in 2+ hour delays. People seem to remember the ORD from 2005-2010 when 30%+ flights were delayed resulting in lots of missed connections.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:25 pm

commavia wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
What makes ORD more special than DFW MIA DCA or CLT? The only other mainline destinations That are non-hubs are BOS and PBI.


What differentiates ORD among AA's various higher-frequency routes out of LGA, makes it a plausible candidate for "Shuttle" branding, are:

* Level of frequency (only other comparable AA routes of LGA are the existing "Shuttle" routes of BOS and DCA)
* Level of premium/business traffic
* Level of competition, and AA's historical and current strength on the route

jfklganyc wrote:
Because of the regional operation and the high frequency, People think of LaGuardia as a big operation for American… It’s scope is quite small. JFK Is moving in that direction as well


No, respectfully, I think many of us think of LGA as a "big operation" for AA because it is, in fact, a "big operation" for AA. AA has >160 peak day departures to 40+ destinations, comprising many of NYC's largest and most important business O&D markets. And AA's is the airport's second largest carrier with >25% market share. And for all the continuous doom and gloom, AA still has ~300 peak day departures out of NYC to 60+ nonstop markets in the U.S. and globally.


Perfectly said. NY-CHI is one of the top business city pairings on Earth. How jfklganyc could even ask a question like that is beyond me.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:46 pm

What AA might do in Europe out of ORD depends on what happens with Brexit. There was a WSJ article a while back, predicting that Amsterdam could see the lion's share of jobs that need to be moved out of the UK. The problem with Frankfurt is that building codes make it hard to design a building with the kind of large, open floor spaces that financial firms want for floor trading operations. Amsterdam doesn't have the same type of building codes.

If Amsterdam starts to take on the role that London now has, when it comes to global financial operations, then we should expect to see more flying to AMS from all U.S. cities, including ORD.

However, you would expect companies that don't need large, open floor space to move to Frankfurt or Amsterdam. I know people whose employers have Paris offices, and the constraints on overtime work probably preclude seeing any large amount of job shifting from London to Paris, post-Brexit.

So, if Brexit does move a lot of jobs to AMS and FRA, then expect AA to add those cities to the ORD route network.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3065
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Beyond what was recently announced, AA should....
Re-launch TLV from ORD instead of from PHL on a 1x daily 788. Chicago needs a nonstop to Israel, and UA is already established from EWR and SFO.

...and add or re-instate
ORD-HNL (1x 788)
ORD-SBN (2x E145)
ORD-DLH (2x E145)
ORD-LNK (2x E145)
ORD-YOW (1x E145)
ORD-YWG (1x E175)
ORD-MBS (2x E145)
ORD-ABE (1x CR7)
ORD-CRW (1x CR7)
ORD-MHT (1x CR7)
ORD-ERI (1x E145)
ORD-SCE (1x E145)
ORD-AVP (1x E145)
ORD-ISP (2x E75)
ORD-IAD (3x E75)
ORD-AVL (1x CR7)
ORD-CAE (1x E145)
ORD-ROA (1x E145)

And, upgauge multiple 50-seat routes to 2-class RJ, and 2-class RJ routes to Mainline
.......
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:48 pm

To be (something of a) devil’s advocate, how would you fund this capacity growth? That is, where would you cut seats to grow AA in ORD without pushing system growth to levels that make Wall Street blush?

I ask this because this topic kind of reminds of United’s stated growth plans in recent months. Between looking to juice up ORD and LAX and ULH routes to Singapore and Australia, Muñoz, Kirby, & Co. sent quite a shock to the investment community. When it seemed like they bungled the messaging even further, some analysts even publicly pondered pushing for a management change.

I’m not saying that I would agree with that line of thought (I think it’s an overreaction), but if we’re to take this role playing scenario a bit further, I think it’s worth pondering.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2430
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:53 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
To be (something of a) devil’s advocate, how would you fund this capacity growth? That is, where would you cut seats to grow AA in ORD without pushing system growth to levels that make Wall Street blush?

I ask this because this topic kind of reminds of United’s stated growth plans in recent months. Between looking to juice up ORD and LAX and ULH routes to Singapore and Australia, Muñoz, Kirby, & Co. sent quite a shock to the investment community. When it seemed like they bungled the messaging even further, some analysts even publicly pondered pushing for a management change.

I’m not saying that I would agree with that line of thought (I think it’s an overreaction), but if we’re to take this role playing scenario a bit further, I think it’s worth pondering.


None of this growth would actually be that substantial. IIRC AA is like 2-3% growth annually, in terms of fleet (I realize not a good metric, but its simple for these purposes) that is like 20-30 aircraft for mainline alone. This isn't a zero sum game right now where growth requires cutbacks elsewhere. Instead, given the size of these airlines, even a small amount of growth percentage-wise adds for a lot of additional capacity.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11224
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:57 pm

So basically, what AA needs to do at ORD is not come on airliners.net and read asinine suggestions. Pretty sure they'll be fine otherwise.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:07 pm

As for Chicago to Europe growth, when more 787s arrive, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manchester and Paris return. With EI entering the IAG fold, Dublin should also be year round on AA or EI. That would give AA/OW year round service to London, Madrid, Dublin, Manchester, and Paris which while not great would represent an improvement. Going forward, OW needs to find another player somewhere between London and Moscow; I think LOT would be a great get, and they're supposedly less than happy with Star.
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:12 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
To be (something of a) devil’s advocate, how would you fund this capacity growth? That is, where would you cut seats to grow AA in ORD without pushing system growth to levels that make Wall Street blush?

I ask this because this topic kind of reminds of United’s stated growth plans in recent months. Between looking to juice up ORD and LAX and ULH routes to Singapore and Australia, Muñoz, Kirby, & Co. sent quite a shock to the investment community. When it seemed like they bungled the messaging even further, some analysts even publicly pondered pushing for a management change.

I’m not saying that I would agree with that line of thought (I think it’s an overreaction), but if we’re to take this role playing scenario a bit further, I think it’s worth pondering.


None of this growth would actually be that substantial. IIRC AA is like 2-3% growth annually, in terms of fleet (I realize not a good metric, but its simple for these purposes) that is like 20-30 aircraft for mainline alone. This isn't a zero sum game right now where growth requires cutbacks elsewhere. Instead, given the size of these airlines, even a small amount of growth percentage-wise adds for a lot of additional capacity.


That’s fair. I haven’t done the math myself in the context of AA’s entire system but I assumed that on an ASM basis, applying a lot of the common recommendations simultaneously (making a lot of the seasonal Transatlantic routes yearly, launching long haul routes like FRA/ICN/LIM/GRU/TLV/HKG/etc.), further upgauging on the domestic side, etc. would push system capacity up a not insignificant amount.
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:22 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
To be (something of a) devil’s advocate, how would you fund this capacity growth? That is, where would you cut seats to grow AA in ORD without pushing system growth to levels that make Wall Street blush?

I ask this because this topic kind of reminds of United’s stated growth plans in recent months. Between looking to juice up ORD and LAX and ULH routes to Singapore and Australia, Muñoz, Kirby, & Co. sent quite a shock to the investment community. When it seemed like they bungled the messaging even further, some analysts even publicly pondered pushing for a management change.

I’m not saying that I would agree with that line of thought (I think it’s an overreaction), but if we’re to take this role playing scenario a bit further, I think it’s worth pondering.


None of this growth would actually be that substantial. IIRC AA is like 2-3% growth annually, in terms of fleet (I realize not a good metric, but its simple for these purposes) that is like 20-30 aircraft for mainline alone. This isn't a zero sum game right now where growth requires cutbacks elsewhere. Instead, given the size of these airlines, even a small amount of growth percentage-wise adds for a lot of additional capacity.


That’s fair. I haven’t done the math myself in the context of AA’s entire system but I assumed that on an ASM basis, applying a lot of the common recommendations simultaneously (making a lot of the seasonal Transatlantic routes yearly, launching long haul routes like FRA/ICN/LIM/GRU/TLV/HKG/etc.), further upgauging on the domestic side, etc. would push system capacity up a not insignificant amount.


With “not insignificant” coming in at a few decimals of a percentage point of course.
 
uberflieger
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: What AA needs to do at ORD

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:05 am

Curious, does anybody know when the 5 new gates will be finished?

:airplane:

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