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jbs2886
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:55 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
jbs2886, thanks for joining the discussion. In your opinion, does any of what I posted misstate black letter law? And specifically, can a holding company be bound by agreements made by a subsidiary without there being privity or agency?


As I stated, I get where you are coming from, but it just isn't that simple. I deal with complicated corporate structures all day long and if "oh, not a party" could be an answer to issues like this, I'd be out of a job. The point is that Holdings setting up a new airline may not in and of itself violate a contract between the pilots and the Airline, but if the new airline under Holdings is to have any value, the Airline must enter into agreements with the new airline that will cause a violation of the pilot contract.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:59 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
jbs2886, thanks for joining the discussion. In your opinion, does any of what I posted misstate black letter law? And specifically, can a holding company be bound by agreements made by a subsidiary without there being privity or agency?


As I stated, I get where you are coming from, but it just isn't that simple. I deal with complicated corporate structures all day long and if "oh, not a party" could be an answer to issues like this, I'd be out of a job. The point is that Holdings setting up a new airline may not in and of itself violate a contract between the pilots and the Airline, but if the new airline under Holdings is to have any value, the Airline must enter into agreements with the new airline that will cause a violation of the pilot contract.


Agreed, except for "but if the new airline under Holdings is to have any value, the Airline must enter into agreements with the new airline that will cause a violation of the pilot contract." (emphasis added).

Interlining and plating carrier agreements would not violate any airline employment agreement I've worked on, and I would replace "must" with "may", or otherwise qualify the quoted phrase.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:04 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
jbs2886, thanks for joining the discussion. In your opinion, does any of what I posted misstate black letter law? And specifically, can a holding company be bound by agreements made by a subsidiary without there being privity or agency?


As I stated, I get where you are coming from, but it just isn't that simple. I deal with complicated corporate structures all day long and if "oh, not a party" could be an answer to issues like this, I'd be out of a job. The point is that Holdings setting up a new airline may not in and of itself violate a contract between the pilots and the Airline, but if the new airline under Holdings is to have any value, the Airline must enter into agreements with the new airline that will cause a violation of the pilot contract.


Agreed, except for "but if the new airline under Holdings is to have any value, the Airline must enter into agreements with the new airline that will cause a violation of the pilot contract." (emphasis added).

Interlining and plating carrier agreements would not violate any airline employment agreement I've worked on, and I would replace "must" with "may", or otherwise qualify the quoted phrase.


As I stated in an earlier post. This requires more than just interlining and plating - first in my mind is FF miles, among others. It is extremely likely HA airlines would violate its contract by entering into the necessary agreements. These aren't just employment agreements, these are incredibly detailed contracts that have significant limitations and provisions impacting on the actual business of the airline.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:10 pm

Fair enough... now we wait to see why HHoldings spent $450K on WP's AOC. I predict an LCC that doesn't offer Hawaiian Miles, just as BA's Avios and VY's Club miles are separate domains.

With SY's announcement of service MSP/LAX/HNL, LCC service to HNL, eastbound and westbound, is heating up. I think we'll see Elliot Street's AOC enter the fray against SY, TR, D7, JQ, etc., for service to HNL. Those LCCs are serving HA city-pairs... HHoldings "must" be concerned. Such a long haul business model could also include interisland.
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1946
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Here are the relevant portions from Section1 of the Flight Attendant contract, which I would assumere pretty much identical to the ALPA contract. Some of you reading way too much into this. HA is just going to run Ohana the way Aloha did with Aloha Island Air (as a wholly owned subsidiary). There will be NO LCC operation with jets. HA is practically an LLC already with their unit costs.

6. Paragraph B.3 of this Section shall prohibit the Company or an Affiliate of the Company from (1) entering into marketing and related arrangements that permit another air carrier (“Feeder Carrier”) to utilize the Company's designator code, name, logo or marks in commercial flight operations (any such agreement, a “Code Sharing Agreement”), or (2) partly or wholly acquiring, establishing, or operating another carrier that does not operate under this Agreement, unless the Company ensures that the following applicable requirements are satisfied with respect to any such Feeder Carrier:

a. The term “Feeder Carrier” refers to an air carrier that operates under a Code Sharing Agreement using its own operating certificate in lawfully operable commercial flight operations under the following conditions, or an air carrier that the Company or an Affiliate has partly or wholly acquired or established and operates using such carrier’s operating certificate, under the following conditions. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, or the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the Company, may operate only (i) within the Hawaiian Islands (hereinafter, an “Inter-Island Feeder Carrier”) or (ii) in markets (city pairs) that provide passenger feed to or from the Company’s B-767/A-330/A-350 or equivalent operations on the West Coast of the continental United States (hereinafter “West Coast Feeder Carrier”).

b. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, and the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the
Company, may operate only turboprop aircraft, and such aircraft must be lawfully operable in commercial flight operations with a maximum certificated seating capacity of sixty-nine (69) seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight of no more than 69,000 pounds in passenger operations.

c. With respect to Inter-Island Feeder Carriers
(1) An Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will conduct no commercial passenger flight operations of any kind on the following city pairs: HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG.
(2) The Company will neither furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendants nor reduce the number of block hours the Company operates in 717 or equivalent jet operations within the Hawaiian Islands as a result of
initiation or expansion of flying by an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier. The existence of an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will not by itself be sufficient to demonstrate causation.
(3) During any consecutive twelve-month period of Inter-Island Feeder Carrier operation under this Agreement, the Company will not operate fewer than twenty-nine thousand (29,000) hours of Inter-Island
turbojet block hours measured over the same period.

d. With respect to West Coast Feeder Carriers, the Company will not furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendant as a result of any Code Sharing Agreement or any commercial flight operations by such carrier, and the Company must demonstrate that no Code Sharing Agreement or operation of such carrier will result in the displacement of any Flight Attendant.

e. The Company shall not be required to apply this Agreement to Flight Attendants employed by a Feeder Carrier, and the Association shall make no argument to or in any forum that application of this Agreement to the Feeder Carrier is required by contract or law.

f. If the Company establishes a Feeder Carrier, or if it acquires a Feeder Carrier whose Flight Attendants are not represented by a union, the Company agrees to recognize, or cause the Feeder Carrier to recognize, the Association as the representative of such Flight Attendants upon a lawful demonstration of majority support and will take a neutral position with respect to the Association’s efforts to secure and provide that lawful demonstration.

g. The Company will make commercially reasonable efforts to obtain the same jumpseat and pass privileges on the aircraft operated by the Feeder Carrier as Hawaiian Flight Attendants have on Hawaiian aircraft.

h. If the Company chooses to acquire and operate turboprop aircraft on Hawaiian’s certificate, then the Parties shall meet to negotiate the rates of pay, rules and working conditions for such aircraft pursuant to Section 27.C.

i. The Company will require Feeder Carriers that it wholly owns and operates to provide a right of first interview and hire to furloughed Hawaiian Flight Attendants and will use its commercially reasonable best efforts to secure such rights from Feeder Carriers that it partly owns or which operate under a Code Sharing Agreement.


-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:39 pm

aloha73g, thanks for the post. Note the requirement for a Code Sharing Agreement with a Feeder Carrier.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:40 pm

aloha73g wrote:
Here are the relevant portions from Section1 of the Flight Attendant contract, which I would assumere pretty much identical to the ALPA contract. Some of you reading way too much into this. HA is just going to run Ohana the way Aloha did with Aloha Island Air (as a wholly owned subsidiary). There will be NO LCC operation with jets. HA is practically an LLC already with their unit costs.

6. Paragraph B.3 of this Section shall prohibit the Company or an Affiliate of the Company from (1) entering into marketing and related arrangements that permit another air carrier (“Feeder Carrier”) to utilize the Company's designator code, name, logo or marks in commercial flight operations (any such agreement, a “Code Sharing Agreement”), or (2) partly or wholly acquiring, establishing, or operating another carrier that does not operate under this Agreement, unless the Company ensures that the following applicable requirements are satisfied with respect to any such Feeder Carrier:

a. The term “Feeder Carrier” refers to an air carrier that operates under a Code Sharing Agreement using its own operating certificate in lawfully operable commercial flight operations under the following conditions, or an air carrier that the Company or an Affiliate has partly or wholly acquired or established and operates using such carrier’s operating certificate, under the following conditions. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, or the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the Company, may operate only (i) within the Hawaiian Islands (hereinafter, an “Inter-Island Feeder Carrier”) or (ii) in markets (city pairs) that provide passenger feed to or from the Company’s B-767/A-330/A-350 or equivalent operations on the West Coast of the continental United States (hereinafter “West Coast Feeder Carrier”).

b. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, and the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the
Company, may operate only turboprop aircraft, and such aircraft must be lawfully operable in commercial flight operations with a maximum certificated seating capacity of sixty-nine (69) seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight of no more than 69,000 pounds in passenger operations.

c. With respect to Inter-Island Feeder Carriers
(1) An Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will conduct no commercial passenger flight operations of any kind on the following city pairs: HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG.
(2) The Company will neither furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendants nor reduce the number of block hours the Company operates in 717 or equivalent jet operations within the Hawaiian Islands as a result of
initiation or expansion of flying by an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier. The existence of an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will not by itself be sufficient to demonstrate causation.
(3) During any consecutive twelve-month period of Inter-Island Feeder Carrier operation under this Agreement, the Company will not operate fewer than twenty-nine thousand (29,000) hours of Inter-Island
turbojet block hours measured over the same period.

d. With respect to West Coast Feeder Carriers, the Company will not furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendant as a result of any Code Sharing Agreement or any commercial flight operations by such carrier, and the Company must demonstrate that no Code Sharing Agreement or operation of such carrier will result in the displacement of any Flight Attendant.

e. The Company shall not be required to apply this Agreement to Flight Attendants employed by a Feeder Carrier, and the Association shall make no argument to or in any forum that application of this Agreement to the Feeder Carrier is required by contract or law.

f. If the Company establishes a Feeder Carrier, or if it acquires a Feeder Carrier whose Flight Attendants are not represented by a union, the Company agrees to recognize, or cause the Feeder Carrier to recognize, the Association as the representative of such Flight Attendants upon a lawful demonstration of majority support and will take a neutral position with respect to the Association’s efforts to secure and provide that lawful demonstration.

g. The Company will make commercially reasonable efforts to obtain the same jumpseat and pass privileges on the aircraft operated by the Feeder Carrier as Hawaiian Flight Attendants have on Hawaiian aircraft.

h. If the Company chooses to acquire and operate turboprop aircraft on Hawaiian’s certificate, then the Parties shall meet to negotiate the rates of pay, rules and working conditions for such aircraft pursuant to Section 27.C.

i. The Company will require Feeder Carriers that it wholly owns and operates to provide a right of first interview and hire to furloughed Hawaiian Flight Attendants and will use its commercially reasonable best efforts to secure such rights from Feeder Carriers that it partly owns or which operate under a Code Sharing Agreement.


-Aloha!


Thank you for providing this, very helpful. It is exactly as I anticipated, it puts restrictions on Hawaiian Airlines from codesharing and other agreements with carriers. This isn't really that unusual - I'm not sure why we got into this whole discussion that "Holdings" can do X so it will do X.
 
Travelmanager
Posts: 136
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:45 pm

Just at face value, it seems odd that Hawaiian would have been the purchaser. Knowing how critical Hawaii is to the strategy of Alaska Air, and their familiarity with the Q400, I had initially thought they might want to acquire the airline. Maybe they are just too busy with Virgin America to worry about it, or maybe Hawaiian just moved really fast to keep any of the US3 or Alaska from picking up turnkey airline. Locals, any insights?
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1946
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:57 pm

Travelmanager wrote:
Just at face value, it seems odd that Hawaiian would have been the purchaser. Knowing how critical Hawaii is to the strategy of Alaska Air, and their familiarity with the Q400, I had initially thought they might want to acquire the airline. Maybe they are just too busy with Virgin America to worry about it, or maybe Hawaiian just moved really fast to keep any of the US3 or Alaska from picking up turnkey airline. Locals, any insights?


HA was the only potential buyer in my opinion, unless Mokulele, TransAir or Aloha Air Cargo wanted to expand to part 121 scheduled passenger operations (which I doubt they would). I really can't imagine AS event considering it. If they wanted to, they could send Horizon Q400s here tomorrow, but they can't even run the Horizon flights they currently have scheduled so I doubt they will. The good news for AS is they picked up quite a few of the WP Q400 pilots which helps alleviate their Horizon crisis.,

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
mcg
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
aloha73g wrote:
Here are the relevant portions from Section1 of the Flight Attendant contract, which I would assumere pretty much identical to the ALPA contract. Some of you reading way too much into this. HA is just going to run Ohana the way Aloha did with Aloha Island Air (as a wholly owned subsidiary). There will be NO LCC operation with jets. HA is practically an LLC already with their unit costs.

6. Paragraph B.3 of this Section shall prohibit the Company or an Affiliate of the Company from (1) entering into marketing and related arrangements that permit another air carrier (“Feeder Carrier”) to utilize the Company's designator code, name, logo or marks in commercial flight operations (any such agreement, a “Code Sharing Agreement”), or (2) partly or wholly acquiring, establishing, or operating another carrier that does not operate under this Agreement, unless the Company ensures that the following applicable requirements are satisfied with respect to any such Feeder Carrier:

a. The term “Feeder Carrier” refers to an air carrier that operates under a Code Sharing Agreement using its own operating certificate in lawfully operable commercial flight operations under the following conditions, or an air carrier that the Company or an Affiliate has partly or wholly acquired or established and operates using such carrier’s operating certificate, under the following conditions. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, or the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the Company, may operate only (i) within the Hawaiian Islands (hereinafter, an “Inter-Island Feeder Carrier”) or (ii) in markets (city pairs) that provide passenger feed to or from the Company’s B-767/A-330/A-350 or equivalent operations on the West Coast of the continental United States (hereinafter “West Coast Feeder Carrier”).

b. A Feeder Carrier acquired, established or operated by the Company, and the portion of a Feeder Carrier operated under a Code Sharing Agreement with the
Company, may operate only turboprop aircraft, and such aircraft must be lawfully operable in commercial flight operations with a maximum certificated seating capacity of sixty-nine (69) seats and a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight of no more than 69,000 pounds in passenger operations.

c. With respect to Inter-Island Feeder Carriers
(1) An Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will conduct no commercial passenger flight operations of any kind on the following city pairs: HNL-LIH, HNL-ITO, HNL-KOA, and HNL-OGG.
(2) The Company will neither furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendants nor reduce the number of block hours the Company operates in 717 or equivalent jet operations within the Hawaiian Islands as a result of
initiation or expansion of flying by an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier. The existence of an Inter-Island Feeder Carrier will not by itself be sufficient to demonstrate causation.
(3) During any consecutive twelve-month period of Inter-Island Feeder Carrier operation under this Agreement, the Company will not operate fewer than twenty-nine thousand (29,000) hours of Inter-Island
turbojet block hours measured over the same period.

d. With respect to West Coast Feeder Carriers, the Company will not furlough any Hawaiian Flight Attendant as a result of any Code Sharing Agreement or any commercial flight operations by such carrier, and the Company must demonstrate that no Code Sharing Agreement or operation of such carrier will result in the displacement of any Flight Attendant.

e. The Company shall not be required to apply this Agreement to Flight Attendants employed by a Feeder Carrier, and the Association shall make no argument to or in any forum that application of this Agreement to the Feeder Carrier is required by contract or law.

f. If the Company establishes a Feeder Carrier, or if it acquires a Feeder Carrier whose Flight Attendants are not represented by a union, the Company agrees to recognize, or cause the Feeder Carrier to recognize, the Association as the representative of such Flight Attendants upon a lawful demonstration of majority support and will take a neutral position with respect to the Association’s efforts to secure and provide that lawful demonstration.

g. The Company will make commercially reasonable efforts to obtain the same jumpseat and pass privileges on the aircraft operated by the Feeder Carrier as Hawaiian Flight Attendants have on Hawaiian aircraft.

h. If the Company chooses to acquire and operate turboprop aircraft on Hawaiian’s certificate, then the Parties shall meet to negotiate the rates of pay, rules and working conditions for such aircraft pursuant to Section 27.C.

i. The Company will require Feeder Carriers that it wholly owns and operates to provide a right of first interview and hire to furloughed Hawaiian Flight Attendants and will use its commercially reasonable best efforts to secure such rights from Feeder Carriers that it partly owns or which operate under a Code Sharing Agreement.


-Aloha!


Thank you for providing this, very helpful. It is exactly as I anticipated, it puts restrictions on Hawaiian Airlines from codesharing and other agreements with carriers. This isn't really that unusual - I'm not sure why we got into this whole discussion that "Holdings" can do X so it will do X.


It's because 'holding company' sounds sexy and fun.
 
Travelmanager
Posts: 136
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:06 pm

aloha73g wrote:
Travelmanager wrote:
Just at face value, it seems odd that Hawaiian would have been the purchaser. Knowing how critical Hawaii is to the strategy of Alaska Air, and their familiarity with the Q400, I had initially thought they might want to acquire the airline. Maybe they are just too busy with Virgin America to worry about it, or maybe Hawaiian just moved really fast to keep any of the US3 or Alaska from picking up turnkey airline. Locals, any insights?


HA was the only potential buyer in my opinion, unless Mokulele, TransAir or Aloha Air Cargo wanted to expand to part 121 scheduled passenger operations (which I doubt they would). I really can't imagine AS event considering it. If they wanted to, they could send Horizon Q400s here tomorrow, but they can't even run the Horizon flights they currently have scheduled so I doubt they will. The good news for AS is they picked up quite a few of the WP Q400 pilots which helps alleviate their Horizon crisis.,

-Aloha!


Thank you! That makes sense. I just figured they may have been interested since you can't do any island hopping on Alaska. Everything they have is from the Islands to the Mainland. Being able to see 2-3 islands in one visit on Alaska would open up a new market for them, without pulling Horizon pilots as you mentioned. Especially with Southwest entering the market, I thought they might want the edge. Thank you for your insight.
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1946
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:17 pm

Also, just a side note. Many people here really want other airlines start up inter-island operations, be it AS or WN ... or even UA and DL. I seriously doubt any of them will do it in a meaningful way. I think AS and/or WN will probably have a few triangle routes (e.g. OAK-OGG-LIH-SAN), but don't think anyone is going to set up an HA style operation with aircraft based at HNL as long as HA maintains their current pricing levels, which IMHO are FAIR. That is the key. Here is why:

The interisland market is shrinking due to direct flights to neighbor islands. If anything AS and WN are/will be two of the main contributors to this. Much of the island hopping traffic from tourists has dried up. Today a larger share of interisland traffic is local people (certainly more than in the past). As more people come to Hawaii every year, or every few years they spend each trip on one island instead of a "once-in-a-lifetime" trip to every island that was more common in the past.

Check out an AQ or HA timetable from the mid-to late 90s. Each alone was running more flights between HNL-OGG than HA does today. Off the top of my head I recall almost 30 flights per day each on AQ and HA on HNL-OGG, today HA operates 26 nonstops HNL-OGG. Another quick example ...In 1997 AQ alone had 14 daily nonstops HNL-ITO and in 2000 HA had 11 nonstops HNL-ITO. Today HA has 14 nonstops HNL-ITO.

If I go home and browse my timetable collection I can find more examples.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:35 pm

mcg wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
aloha73g wrote:
Here are the relevant portions from Section1 of the Flight Attendant contract, which I would assumere pretty much identical to the ALPA contract. Some of you reading way too much into this. HA is just going to run Ohana the way Aloha did with Aloha Island Air (as a wholly owned subsidiary). There will be NO LCC operation with jets. HA is practically an LLC already with their unit costs.



-Aloha!


Thank you for providing this, very helpful. It is exactly as I anticipated, it puts restrictions on Hawaiian Airlines from codesharing and other agreements with carriers. This isn't really that unusual - I'm not sure why we got into this whole discussion that "Holdings" can do X so it will do X.


It's because 'holding company' sounds sexy and fun.


:lol: in my world there is nothing sexy or fun about them.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:41 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Fair enough... now we wait to see why HHoldings spent $450K on WP's AOC. I predict an LCC that doesn't offer Hawaiian Miles, just as BA's Avios and VY's Club miles are separate domains.

With SY's announcement of service MSP/LAX/HNL, LCC service to HNL, eastbound and westbound, is heating up. I think we'll see Elliot Street's AOC enter the fray against SY, TR, D7, JQ, etc., for service to HNL. Those LCCs are serving HA city-pairs... HHoldings "must" be concerned. Such a long haul business model could also include interisland.


Do you live in some alternate universe? They’ve said exactly why they bought the AOC. It’s to bring Ohana in house.
 
obelau24
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:08 pm

aloha73g wrote:
Also, just a side note. Many people here really want other airlines start up inter-island operations, be it AS or WN ... or even UA and DL. I seriously doubt any of them will do it in a meaningful way. I think AS and/or WN will probably have a few triangle routes (e.g. OAK-OGG-LIH-SAN), but don't think anyone is going to set up an HA style operation with aircraft based at HNL as long as HA maintains their current pricing levels, which IMHO are FAIR. That is the key. Here is why:

The interisland market is shrinking due to direct flights to neighbor islands. If anything AS and WN are/will be two of the main contributors to this. Much of the island hopping traffic from tourists has dried up. Today a larger share of interisland traffic is local people (certainly more than in the past). As more people come to Hawaii every year, or every few years they spend each trip on one island instead of a "once-in-a-lifetime" trip to every island that was more common in the past.

Check out an AQ or HA timetable from the mid-to late 90s. Each alone was running more flights between HNL-OGG than HA does today. Off the top of my head I recall almost 30 flights per day each on AQ and HA on HNL-OGG, today HA operates 26 nonstops HNL-OGG. Another quick example ...In 1997 AQ alone had 14 daily nonstops HNL-ITO and in 2000 HA had 11 nonstops HNL-ITO. Today HA has 14 nonstops HNL-ITO.

If I go home and browse my timetable collection I can find more examples.

-Aloha!


You’re right about the shrinking interisland market. There will always be a market for connections to and from the outer islands to international - that won’t change too much unless KOA sees MAJOR investment and gives ultra major discounts. OGG will probably never happen outside of Canada with the runway restriction. But the island hopping tourist is gone for the most part. Local traffic is the bread and butter and that won’t change too much unless there is major industry development in the outer islands and they don’t have the critical mass for it, I don’t think. I still find it amazing that there are day laborers - mechanics, construction, etc - who commute every morning from HNL, never mind the business people and politicians. Then of course there’s cargo - HA recently won the Love’s bakery contract that Aloha had for a long while. That’s just one small example of how entrenched HA is and there is very little room for competition.

No other airline could get cargo and mail contracts without the multitude of flights; the connection passengers without cooperation with international carriers; or even the terminal space at capacity-constrained airports state-wide. AS will never do interisland - I will eat my shoe if that happens. And while WN has alluded to it, I expect only round-robin flights like OAK-HNL-OGG-OAK if even that because why should they even need tags? They could serve every major state airport nonstop as it is.

Unless you watch HA interisland closely, you really can’t appreciate what a behemoth and what a necessity it is to the whole State. HA knows that and will only tighten their grip to ensure no one dares question their authority.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:37 pm

aloha73g wrote:
The good news for AS is they picked up quite a few of the WP Q400 pilots which helps alleviate their Horizon crisis.


TMK, most (if not all) the WP pilots have found jobs... at least one got an offer from HA and accepted, though most are going to mainland regionals.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:41 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
:lol: in my world there is nothing sexy or fun about them.


They are fun and sexy if they pay their legal bills on time. One of the largest unsecured creditors of WP was its law firm.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:43 pm

azjubilee wrote:
Do you live in some alternate universe? They’ve said exactly why they bought the AOC. It’s to bring Ohana in house.


Honne and tatamae. Yes, the AOC can be used for an interisland carrier. AOCs are frequently amended.
There should be several worksheets in the Elliot Street workbook.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:50 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
:lol: in my world there is nothing sexy or fun about them.


They are fun and sexy if they pay their legal bills on time. One of the largest unsecured creditors of WP was its law firm.


That happens, there must have been absolutely no funds. Often large firms won't file the bankruptcy if there are outstanding bills (so the company pays outstanding bills). Also avoids the law firm being adverse because they are a creditor.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:56 pm

WP didn't use its regular counsel for the bankruptcy filing... we know why.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:02 pm

I really hope they bring back a majority of the Island Employees. It would be such a blessing, as many have had difficulties finding work.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1902
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:27 am

Hawaii's airlines tend to take care of eachother. When Island Air ended MKK service, Mokulele offered their staff flight privileges for 3 months while they looked for work :)

Most of Ohana flights are already handled by either Empire or HA staff, so sadly I'm not sure what this purchase means except for maybe staff getting insurance and/or backpay.
xx
 
77H
Posts: 1571
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:07 am

ridgid727 wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
ridgid727 wrote:

I would imagine the Empire Marketing Folks will be knocking on United, Delta, Alaska, and Southwest's door in an effort to set up an Inter-Island Operation.


I doubt it.


I guess you're obviously in the know.


There is absolutely no way for AZ to know what Empire will do knowing that HA is looking to loose them unless there is a specific non-compete clause that would bar Empire from operating for anyone else in the market for X number of years. Beyond that, AZ may be basing his knowledge on the fact that none of the airlines you named would need Empire to start inter-island ops to compete with HA.

All the airlines you listed above with the possible exception of WN have the ability to not only start the interisland market but compete with HA in a very meaningful way with aircraft they already have be it mainline or regional. Alas, the market is too small to be worth the logistical effort, hence, why no one has tried since UA thought about it years ago. Luckily, the interisland carriers had the Late Senator by their side to "bully" them against entering.

77H
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5755
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:08 am

While some tourists do no longer island hop, I have been doing it for over 4 decades & do everytime we go, at least yearly. The majority of people we fly with look like tourists (I've lived in Hawaii & can honestly tell the differences).

I agree that demand is not there like it was in the 90's when I lived there & I booked AQ every single day of my career, as I was the lead VIP/International Corporate travel agent at Regal travel. We sold blocks of the coupon books 500-1000 count, very often.

But the Island hopping tourist is not a lost breed & I rarely use HNL as my point of entry or departure point, I much prefer LIH or KOA & now I'm very happy I can fly from KOA to LIH non-stop, although changing in Maui is alright.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
mcg
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: Hawaiian Holdings purchases Island Air Assets

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:59 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
mcg wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Thank you for providing this, very helpful. It is exactly as I anticipated, it puts restrictions on Hawaiian Airlines from codesharing and other agreements with carriers. This isn't really that unusual - I'm not sure why we got into this whole discussion that "Holdings" can do X so it will do X.


It's because 'holding company' sounds sexy and fun.


:lol: in my world there is nothing sexy or fun about them.


I suspect you live in the real world:)!

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