VC10er
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Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:53 pm

I haven’t flown AA since the last angled lie-flat seat which cost me 3 days in traction afterwards. So I’m not familiar with AA’s improvements.

I know the 773’s have 8 in F, and I don’t know what their plans are for the rest of their fleet. I have seen pics of the 773 business class and they look very nice.

Obviously DL doesn’t have F, and (legacy) United which was always a 3 Class airline is switching to 2 class with Polaris (which I find very, very comfortable and attractive)

Why has AA decided to go in a direction that most are moving away from? Is AA selling F at F prices?

Curious, thanks, R
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lowfareair
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:57 pm

AA only has it in their 77Ws (technically they do in the Transcon A321s, but that's more of a nice business class-style reverse herringbone seat) so it is used for pre.ium routes, like JFK-LHR.

It probably isn't a cash cow for them, but my guess is it is used to keep some corporate contracts and allow AA to be competitive on certain premium routes where not having F would be a disadvantage.
 
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AASAP777
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:39 pm

lowfareair wrote:
AA only has it in their 77Ws (technically they do in the Transcon A321s, but that's more of a nice business class-style reverse herringbone seat) so it is used for pre.ium routes, like JFK-LHR.

It probably isn't a cash cow for them, but my guess is it is used to keep some corporate contracts and allow AA to be competitive on certain premium routes where not having F would be a disadvantage.



Don't forget HKG and certain routes to South America (EZE, GRU).
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Polot
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:46 pm

No other planes in the fleet are getting F class, or is getting them removed (if not already). I suspect the only reason the 77Ws have them is because the seats/cabin were basically brand new when the decision was made to remove F from the rest of the fleet, so might as well get your money's worth out of them. When the 77Ws get refreshed F will probably be eliminated.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:29 pm

Polot wrote:
No other planes in the fleet are getting F class, or is getting them removed (if not already). I suspect the only reason the 77Ws have them is because the seats/cabin were basically brand new when the decision was made to remove F from the rest of the fleet, so might as well get your money's worth out of them. When the 77Ws get refreshed F will probably be eliminated.

IIRC the decision was part of the massive fleet renewal program which was announced over several months in 2011, I believe it was a right sizing decision to keep First in markets where it made sense however not at the same scope they were currently operating it (was deployed in the entire 772 fleet) at the time. It’s really a nice product, would be a shame to see it disappear completely.
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ripcordd
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:05 pm

77W will be a 5 class plane F/J/PE/E+/Y all other wide bodies will be 4 class J/PE/E+/Y. I suspect over time that PE will morph into J class just like J morphed into F
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:11 pm

ripcordd wrote:
77W will be a 5 class plane F/J/PE/E+/Y all other wide bodies will be 4 class J/PE/E+/Y. I suspect over time that PE will morph into J class just like J morphed into F


52J seats is a lot. Compare that to DL's 350 which has 32 and the soon to be refreshed 777 which will have only 28. I can see AA going down the same path and shrinking the J cabin. It will mean less upgrades for elites and non-revs but more profits and isnt that really the name of the game? Heck, I don't even choose the 4 global upgrade certs anymore as part of my CB's B/C they are impossible to clear anytime before departure, if at all.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:12 pm

As a Purser who regularly flies JFK-LHR (about 6 times a month), the demand for First Class is there. There are great many Wall Street types and entertainment industry people who fly it and they’re full fare First. When we lost the 77W on all but one flight to LHR from JFK, I heard from many of them who were concerned about a lack of frequency for First on AA and they fly BA instead, if they can’t arrange their work schedule.

It’s a small niche market, but earns big premiums. I can’t say about other routes on the 77W, because I don’t fly them.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:34 pm

jumbojet wrote:
52J seats is a lot. Compare that to DL's 350 which has 32 and the soon to be refreshed 777 which will have only 28. I can see AA going down the same path and shrinking the J cabin. It will mean less upgrades for elites and non-revs but more profits and isnt that really the name of the game? Heck, I don't even choose the 4 global upgrade certs anymore as part of my CB's B/C they are impossible to clear anytime before departure, if at all.


Doesn't united have 60J seats on their 77W ?
 
drdisque
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:41 pm

I think that it's mainly due to the fact that on the 77W you can't really fit many more than 8 J seats up in that nose section anyway - so why not make them F and charge more for them and give your super-elite paid J pax something to spend their miles or upgrades on.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:41 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
52J seats is a lot. Compare that to DL's 350 which has 32 and the soon to be refreshed 777 which will have only 28. I can see AA going down the same path and shrinking the J cabin. It will mean less upgrades for elites and non-revs but more profits and isnt that really the name of the game? Heck, I don't even choose the 4 global upgrade certs anymore as part of my CB's B/C they are impossible to clear anytime before departure, if at all.


Doesn't united have 60J seats on their 77W ?


Yes but they lack a true W. They could reduce Y and add W.
 
xxcr
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:46 pm

With a lot of airlines downsizing or removing their F cabins, there is still a really small market for those who are willing to pay for First Class.

Give it another 15-20 years, First class will make a big comeback.
 
AA388
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:48 pm

think that it's mainly due to the fact that on the 77W you can't really fit many more than 8 J seats up in that nose section anyway


Between the L1-L2 door they fit 8F seats and then a mini C class that has 8 seats. It's not a space issue.

And with all the investments into the Flagship Lounge and Flagship First products, I can't see AA moving away from F anytime soon.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:50 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
As a Purser who regularly flies JFK-LHR (about 6 times a month), the demand for First Class is there. There are great many Wall Street types and entertainment industry people who fly it and they’re full fare First. When we lost the 77W on all but one flight to LHR from JFK, I heard from many of them who were concerned about a lack of frequency for First on AA and they fly BA instead, if they can’t arrange their work schedule.

It’s a small niche market, but earns big premiums. I can’t say about other routes on the 77W, because I don’t fly them.

The BA First product has been in decline for a good while, I do feel sorry for them.
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winginit
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:51 pm

The dedicated F cabin on both the 77W and the A321T was a decision made by Virasb Vahidi and the Horton-era management back when the corporate line was that AA would emerge from bankruptcy independent with a renewed strategy to compete as a smaller but more premium oriented carrier when compared to United and Delta. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next rotation of retrofits we see the cabin disappear with Premium Economy integrated onto both fleet types.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:55 pm

“First Class” at AA has been reduced to only the Premium Markets within the system, which is onboard the A321Ts and 777-300ERs.

The F product on both aircraft is excellent, and are perfect for their respected aircraft.
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itchief
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:43 pm

winginit wrote:
The dedicated F cabin on both the 77W and the A321T was a decision made by Virasb Vahidi and the Horton-era management back when the corporate line was that AA would emerge from bankruptcy independent with a renewed strategy to compete as a smaller but more premium oriented carrier when compared to United and Delta. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next rotation of retrofits we see the cabin disappear with Premium Economy integrated onto both fleet types.


Premium economy is already being installed on the 77W's and the F cabin is still there.

Yes this was a product of the Horton led AA and I hate to see what Mr Parker will do to it. AA has gone from the vision of being a premium carrier under Horton to an LCC under Parker. Parker is a great leader if you are in a race to the bottom.
 
commavia
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:50 pm

itchief wrote:
AA has gone from the vision of being a premium carrier under Horton to an LCC under Parker. Parker is a great leader if you are in a race to the bottom.


I'm sorry, but with respect, I think that's ridiculous. AA now offerings lie-flat, all-aisle-access F/J on all of its widebodies, with very strong hard products in particularly on the 777s and 787s. The new Flagship Lounge at key gateways are rolling out at an impressive rate, and are very nice, and the new Flagship First Dining product is absolutely incredible - even moreso for a U.S. carrier. I get that domestic F legroom and food may not be as nice as they were a decade ago. Okay, fine. But even with that, AA is today, in many ways, offering a better premium offering, and offering it more broadly, than ever before.
 
itchief
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:58 pm

commavia wrote:
itchief wrote:
AA has gone from the vision of being a premium carrier under Horton to an LCC under Parker. Parker is a great leader if you are in a race to the bottom.


I'm sorry, but with respect, I think that's ridiculous. AA now offerings lie-flat, all-aisle-access F/J on all of its widebodies, with very strong hard products in particularly on the 777s and 787s. The new Flagship Lounge at key gateways are rolling out at an impressive rate, and are very nice, and the new Flagship First Dining product is absolutely incredible - even moreso for a U.S. carrier. I get that domestic F legroom and food may not be as nice as they were a decade ago. Okay, fine. But even with that, AA is today, in many ways, offering a better premium offering, and offering it more broadly, than ever before.


The problem is most of us common people fly in the back where seating is taking a bit hit. Every airline has lie-flat seating in the front. And for the record I am an ex EXP with AA (10 years) and I have had to pleasure of sitting the F/J many times and using the Flagship Lounges.
Last edited by itchief on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:04 pm

I honestly think a lot of it has to do with LHR and their position there.
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tphuang
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:05 pm

F is not going away when they just started with the flagship first dining experience.

There is a market for f. If dl and ua move away from it, then aa gets to corner the entire space. That seems like a great place to be for premium markets like NYC/lax to lhr/hkg/tyo and Mia/gru.
 
commavia
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:08 pm

itchief wrote:
The problem is most of us common people fly in the back where seating is taking a bit hit.


Indeed. Welcome to the global airline industry, circa 2017. Virtually every major airline on earth is either actively adding density (seats) to their aircraft, or planning to do so. This is hardly unique to AA, or even the U.S.

itchief wrote:
Every airline has lie-flat seating in the front.


First off, no, no they don't. There are still plenty of airlines around the world without all-lie-flat, all-aisle-access premium cabins.

And secondly, even among carriers that do offer all-lie-flat, all-aisle-access premium cabins, all such hard products are not created equal. Some are nicer than others - even just among AA's own fleet. AA's 757/767 premium cabins are all-lie-flat, but lack AVOD PTVs, for instance. On the flip side, the premium cabins on the 777 and 787 are quite competitive.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:22 pm

Personally, I see F class going away on 77Ws.

While maybe product makes sense on something like JFK-LHR, the routes where I have flown the 77W in recent years hardly need it. I have been to HKG 3 times this year and GRU once on the 77W and on all trips was moved up to F either due to my corporate account or using my remaining SWUs.

Delta has no F class, and UA will stop selling F class internationally in 2018, so AA would be left the sole US major with the product on a sliver of its international fleet.

Also just because AA has Flagship dining does not mean it needs a F-class product to go along. Look at competitors like UA, where the dining is wrapped around its new business class product branding, or many European and Asian peers that also offer on the ground dining experiences without a F class cabin flight to go along.
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bzcat
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:29 pm

As long as AA (and BA thanks to ATI) can sell F tickets on JFK-LHR and LAX-LHR, AA will keep the 8 F seats.

The argument for getting rid of it is that you don't need it for HKG or GRU... if so, then AA can always just sell them as J seats and give them to EXPs. Alternatively, they can keep selling F to HKG and GRU but have EXPs burn their SWU or miles to upgrade, which may end up being revenue neutral once you consider the entire network.
 
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:42 pm

jumbojet wrote:
ripcordd wrote:
77W will be a 5 class plane F/J/PE/E+/Y all other wide bodies will be 4 class J/PE/E+/Y. I suspect over time that PE will morph into J class just like J morphed into F


52J seats is a lot. Compare that to DL's 350 which has 32 and the soon to be refreshed 777 which will have only 28. I can see AA going down the same path and shrinking the J cabin. It will mean less upgrades for elites and non-revs but more profits and isnt that really the name of the game? Heck, I don't even choose the 4 global upgrade certs anymore as part of my CB's B/C they are impossible to clear anytime before departure, if at all.


I don't. AA only has 52J on their 77W.. and those are on premium heavy routes like LHR and HKG.

That 52J is typically full with an upgrade list of 52 more between DFW and LHR.
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airzona11
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:46 pm

LAX JFK LHR HKG, just about the most premium the markets in the world. Add in the JVs and partner hubs at the both ends, and it makes sense to have a carve out for First Class. Yes F Class worldwide is declining, but there is still a market for it. Their J class is on par with all other carriers, so they arent offering a J-minus product with angle lie flats like they used to.
 
winginit
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:35 am

LAXintl wrote:
Personally, I see F class going away on 77Ws.

While maybe product makes sense on something like JFK-LHR, the routes where I have flown the 77W in recent years hardly need it. I have been to HKG 3 times this year and GRU once on the 77W and on all trips was moved up to F either due to my corporate account or using my remaining SWUs.

Delta has no F class, and UA will stop selling F class internationally in 2018, so AA would be left the sole US major with the product on a sliver of its international fleet.

Also just because AA has Flagship dining does not mean it needs a F-class product to go along. Look at competitors like UA, where the dining is wrapped around its new business class product branding, or many European and Asian peers that also offer on the ground dining experiences without a F class cabin flight to go along.


Agreed. Have been booked into AA's 77W J product maybe 15-20 segments over the past two years and every time except for two segments I was able to upgrade into what was an F cabin full of nonrevs and a few other upgrades. Same goes for the transcon, where I've flown maybe 8 segments so far this year with the same result. I can't say for certain whether or not the dedicated F cabin is profitable for AA or not, but it seems at this point a vanity product compared to what is a very competent J product on both fleet types. I sense that AA would be perfectly fine removing the F cabin from both fleet types so long as J on the A321T was converted to all aisle access.
 
itchief
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:15 am

commavia wrote:
itchief wrote:
The problem is most of us common people fly in the back where seating is taking a bit hit.


Indeed. Welcome to the global airline industry, circa 2017. Virtually every major airline on earth is either actively adding density (seats) to their aircraft, or planning to do so. This is hardly unique to AA, or even the U.S.

itchief wrote:
Every airline has lie-flat seating in the front.


First off, no, no they don't. There are still plenty of airlines around the world without all-lie-flat, all-aisle-access premium cabins.

And secondly, even among carriers that do offer all-lie-flat, all-aisle-access premium cabins, all such hard products are not created equal. Some are nicer than others - even just among AA's own fleet. AA's 757/767 premium cabins are all-lie-flat, but lack AVOD PTVs, for instance. On the flip side, the premium cabins on the 777 and 787 are quite competitive.


Sorry my mistake. I should have said all US carriers offer lie flat products, they all do not offer all-aisle access however.
 
uberflieger
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:58 am

VC10er wrote:
Is AA selling F at F prices?


Parker (and Kirby at the time) told Wall Street analysts he did not believe in F and was going to kill it. Then he saw the numbers. In the meantime he has invested in the product big time.

:airplane:
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:11 am

I loathe the fact that UA is getting rid of international first class, to me you are hardly a top-tier carrier if you don't have it.
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usxguy
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:24 am

I've flown Flagship First a few times -- between LAX/MIA on the 772 & 77W, and also 3 times MIA/EZE, all on the 77W.

I had access to JetNet and could login and see the standby lists on most of my flights - and despite what some of you say, hardly any non-revs or upgrades were into F. I think the 2nd to last flight I did (this time last year, actually) to EZE they maybe got 3 non-revs into F, a few in J, and the rest into W. All my flights had huge lists of upgrades into F & J, with very few actually making it into F, overall.

So AA is doing something *right* into EZE with F and on my MIA/LAX FF flights if they aren't the non-rev express.
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bourbon
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:43 am

All the 772's have had the old F removed. Some have the Zodiac J seat that the original 788's came with, many of the 772's have the B/E Aero Super Diamond which has received pretty decent reviews. The 772's and 773's are all also going through the Premium Eco Mods.

The 773's are used on LAX-LHR/HKG, DFW-LHR (at least 1 flight a day) DFW-GRU(back to a 77W from 789), MIA-LHR, MIA-GRU(2 + 777W's a day), MIA-EZE (at least 1 flight a day), JFK-LHR,
 
infinit
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:54 am

I think the question can apply to any airline with a First Class cabin. Not just AA.

Even Singapore Airlines which is renowned for its industry-leading First Class has reduced it on their 77Ws to 4 seats.. a single row, and on their 380s from 12 to 6 seats. The rest of their fleet wont feature First Class.

This CAPA article sums up why they some airlines are maintaining First Class cabins. It is more for marketing than anything else:
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... rks-390280
 
jfk777
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:10 am

AA needs First Class like a 7-series BMW needs a 12 cylinder engine. AA has a great J class on its 787 & 777 airplanes, First Class gets sold on markets to Latin America and is full of upgrades to LHR and HKG. AA will probably remove First from their 77W in the future when they expand premium economy. When AA replaces the seats in their 77W First will probably be ditched. Even Lufthansa's new 777-9 will NOT have First Class and their First is legendary.
 
ozark1
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:38 am

usxguy wrote:
I've flown Flagship First a few times -- between LAX/MIA on the 772 & 77W, and also 3 times MIA/EZE, all on the 77W.

I had access to JetNet and could login and see the standby lists on most of my flights - and despite what some of you say, hardly any non-revs or upgrades were into F. I think the 2nd to last flight I did (this time last year, actually) to EZE they maybe got 3 non-revs into F, a few in J, and the rest into W. All my flights had huge lists of upgrades into F & J, with very few actually making it into F, overall.

So AA is doing something *right* into EZE with F and on my MIA/LAX FF flights if they aren't the non-rev express.

I have to agree with you here. I work the 77W a lot and it is rare that non-revs make it up there. I speak from an Asia point of perspective where there are so many EP travelers that some end up in Y on every trip.
 
VC10er
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:08 pm

A long time ago at an airport far, far away...

I used to fly legacy United as a 1k, then GS (when that begun). I loved their First Class, although as seats got flatter so did the food and service. I never paid, I used a certificate or I was comped up.
I figured F was a UA magnet in return for J fare loyalty. But the writing was on the wall. Once the CO merger was announced, then I knew it was just a matter of time before F would go. And, to be entirely frank—it was really only fantastic on their 747s.
I figured the same thing was going on at AA. I probably would have bounced around more had it not been for UA’s very liberal policy for high level FF.
I was sad to see United’s First Class decline then disappear but there was clearly a trend for a much better J and that’s it.
It will be interesting to see which airlines in 10 years will have a true F cabin if J keeps improving.
In the end, with privacy and all aisle access, most of us don’t need to be so grand. (Although it’s really nice)
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Brickell305
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:13 pm

I’m pretty sure AA can sell F to EZE and GRU out of Miami.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:35 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
“First Class” at AA has been reduced to only the Premium Markets within the system, which is onboard the A321Ts and 777-300ERs.

The F product on both aircraft is excellent, and are perfect for their respected aircraft.


except that there is zero privacy in those F seats, especially on the 773's. You would think a little more thought would've been put into that.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:44 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
I loathe the fact that UA is getting rid of international first class, to me you are hardly a top-tier carrier if you don't have it.

Pretty much all big carriers are transitioning to 2-class service, though a case could be made that premium economy is the new J.

There was a YouTube video that showed why F is going away. You could get more money by replacing some F seats with a few more J seats considering that the difference from J to F is not as extreme as Y to J (plus, how many people end up paying for their F seats and not getting them through upgrades or rewards?)

Only a select routes and aircraft will be equipped with F, and it's a matter of time before it also gets pulled.

As for other international carriers like EK and QR...their network and customer base is completely different so they can afford to keep F.
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ZincSaucier
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Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:37 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
The F product on both aircraft is excellent, and are perfect for their respected aircraft.


except that there is zero privacy in those F seats, especially on the 773's. You would think a little more thought would've been put into that.



I 100% agree. Used a SWU to bump up from J to F on HKG-DFW in Oct. Food was good (not amazing), service was good (not amazing), but the seat felt ancient. My F experiences are limited to CX and JL, but would say that the whole F experience was far inferior to either, especially the hard product. On the 321T I agree that the product is great for a domestic F (and J).
 
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vhtje
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:57 pm

itchief wrote:
commavia wrote:
itchief wrote:
AA has gone from the vision of being a premium carrier under Horton to an LCC under Parker. Parker is a great leader if you are in a race to the bottom.


I'm sorry, but with respect, I think that's ridiculous. AA now offerings lie-flat, all-aisle-access F/J on all of its widebodies, with very strong hard products in particularly on the 777s and 787s. The new Flagship Lounge at key gateways are rolling out at an impressive rate, and are very nice, and the new Flagship First Dining product is absolutely incredible - even moreso for a U.S. carrier. I get that domestic F legroom and food may not be as nice as they were a decade ago. Okay, fine. But even with that, AA is today, in many ways, offering a better premium offering, and offering it more broadly, than ever before.


The problem is most of us common people fly in the back where seating is taking a bit hit. Every airline has lie-flat seating in the front. And for the record I am an ex EXP with AA (10 years) and I have had to pleasure of sitting the F/J many times and using the Flagship Lounges.


If you read the comment commavia was addressing, it was specifically about AA being a premium carrier - in other words, AA’s experience in the premium cabins. Hence commavia’s response is about AA’s premium cabins and associated services, not Economy.

AA’s Flagship experiences - check-in, lounges, dining - really are very good, and in my view are the equal to any carrier, with a unique American flair that differentiates the offering from Asian and ME carriers. I particularly like the Flagship check-in experience, with very efficient, approachable, friendly and helpful staff.

One wonders if some of the criticism that gets levelled at AA is because of tall poppy syndrome? Or, is it a case of a ‘If it’s foreign, it must be better’ mentality from our American posters, whereby no American carrier can hope to compete with a foreign carrier?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 782
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:58 pm

I also think it’s highly unlikely that American will be getting rid of F anytime soon when they are currently in the process of renovating their Flagship First lounges. The one in MIA was recently completed. Why would they make that investment if they weren’t planning on keeping First much longer?
 
SJPBR
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:01 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I’m pretty sure AA can sell F to EZE and GRU out of Miami.


I’ve been told by an AA agent in GRU that they sell about 50% of F seats in the GRU-MIA.
 
User avatar
jsnww81
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:44 pm

vhtje wrote:
[One wonders if some of the criticism that gets levelled at AA is because of tall poppy syndrome? Or, is it a case of a ‘If it’s foreign, it must be better’ mentality from our American posters, whereby no American carrier can hope to compete with a foreign carrier?


There's definitely some truth to this, but the US carriers have only themselves to blame for it. They let service standards slip so low and product get so bad, for so long, that many people just automatically associate them with low quality. So when an airline like AA rolls out something good, like refreshed seats, Flagship Dining, or new aircraft, the tendency among many consumers is to see only the negative. I'm guilty of it myself. AA's J seats are light years ahead of what they used to be, but when I'm in one all I seem to notice is that the food is mediocre, or the crew is disheveled looking and inattentive, and I think to myself, "well, that's AA for you."

Conversely, people are willing to excuse subpar experiences on carriers like SQ (robotic crew), JL (some horrifically old interiors), EK (suboptimal J product) etc. because they associate those brands with high quality. US passengers have been conditioned over several decades to associate our airline brands with low quality, so we do, even when it might not be warranted.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:30 pm

itchief wrote:
winginit wrote:
The dedicated F cabin on both the 77W and the A321T was a decision made by Virasb Vahidi and the Horton-era management back when the corporate line was that AA would emerge from bankruptcy independent with a renewed strategy to compete as a smaller but more premium oriented carrier when compared to United and Delta. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next rotation of retrofits we see the cabin disappear with Premium Economy integrated onto both fleet types.


Premium economy is already being installed on the 77W's and the F cabin is still there.

Yes this was a product of the Horton led AA and I hate to see what Mr Parker will do to it. AA has gone from the vision of being a premium carrier under Horton to an LCC under Parker. Parker is a great leader if you are in a race to the bottom.


I'm currently sat in the JFK Flagship Lounge and it's probably the best lounge of a US carrier I have seen in the US.
 
winginit
Posts: 2627
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:59 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I also think it’s highly unlikely that American will be getting rid of F anytime soon when they are currently in the process of renovating their Flagship First lounges. The one in MIA was recently completed. Why would they make that investment if they weren’t planning on keeping First much longer?


You'll find Flagship First is something that would be relatively easy to either rebrand or simply re-associate with business class in the same way Delta has done with Delta One and United is doing with Polaris. Just because it's called Flagship First doesn't mean it could become a product simply associated with a premium cabin be that "true first" or business.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7209
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:23 pm

AA could have 12 J class seats more, that is 5 rows of J between L1 & L2 doors, to replace 8 First Class seats on the 77W. I arrive at this conclusion because Air France and Cathay have the same seat. They have seat maps showing how many seats would fit. 52 plus 12 more j class seats would fit very nicely on AA 77W.
 
cpd
Posts: 6136
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:45 am

VC10er wrote:
I haven’t flown AA since the last angled lie-flat seat which cost me 3 days in traction afterwards. So I’m not familiar with AA’s improvements.


If this lie-flat seat was so uncomfortable, you could have asked them to move you to an economy class seat instead, that would have obviously been far better.

If you keep the existing first class, it must be cheaper than having to build a whole new product. Though admittedly it would be good if they'd do something very premium like Singapore, Etihad or Emirates does. But perhaps the market in the USA doesn't expect it.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2636
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:35 am

It all seems like an endless cycle. Original F becomes so extravagant and expensive that corporate clients stop paying it...so the airlines introduce "business class"/C in between F and Y...gradually C is now becoming so extravagant and expensive that corporate clients can no longer justify that either; so now the airlines come up with "economy plus"/Y+/W (which almost exactly mirrors what business class was when it originally debuted).

And now we're starting to see W offerings upgraded more and more. I suppose at some point though airlines will find an optimum product segmentation.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7209
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Why does AA keep a global First Class?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:28 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
It all seems like an endless cycle. Original F becomes so extravagant and expensive that corporate clients stop paying it...so the airlines introduce "business class"/C in between F and Y...gradually C is now becoming so extravagant and expensive that corporate clients can no longer justify that either; so now the airlines come up with "economy plus"/Y+/W (which almost exactly mirrors what business class was when it originally debuted).

And now we're starting to see W offerings upgraded more and more. I suppose at some point though airlines will find an optimum product segmentation.


This has always been an "arms race", first it was Pan Am & BOAC then Singapore and Cathay and now the ME3. Currently the endless pockets of the ME3 has shown what First and Business Class have become on Emirates and Qatar. Singapore Airlines just debuted their new Suite Class with only 6 on their A380. Who ever thought the A380 would only have six First Class seats. What will BA, AF and LH do ?

First Class used to be two rows of 2-2-2 seats, then it was 1-2-1 and now 1-1-1 as Emirates is doing on their 777. AA needs to have a great J class and dump their First Class on the 77W. What does having 20 777 with 8 super seats achieve ? Confusion

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