User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:40 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I still don’t get why they would want to do this if in their minds something about the size of the E195 E2 is highly substituable with a 737-7. :liar:


It´s not about the present.

It´s about the future ...

But in business it’s always about the future or at least it should be. Boeing didn’t complain hoping to get Delta’s business back, it was about future business that might get “stolen” from them.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
Route66
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Boeing currently has hundreds of industrial partnerships. Including with Embraer. Your posts are misguided, at best. But you go with that hate...


They do not have any partnerships with competitors.


A nonsensical moving of the goalposts. Of course they do. Who do you think they partner up with for large military contracts?

Anyway, I was under the impression that Embraer did not compete with Boeing in any significant way, which negates that line. Is that incorrect?

Have you heard of Embraer unhappiness about previous/current working relationships with Boeing? Any evidence at all?
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:48 pm

Governo deverá responder em breve se aceita "nova empresa" a ser criada entre Boeing e Embraer

http://epocanegocios.globo.com/Empresa/ ... braer.html


Brazilian Government may give a answer to the new Boeing proposal (creat a third company) in fallowing days.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2130
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:17 pm

Route66 wrote:
A nonsensical moving of the goalposts. Of course they do. Who do you think they partner up with for large military contracts?

Anyway, I was under the impression that Embraer did not compete with Boeing in any significant way, which negates that line. Is that incorrect?


Seriously? In a thread about a Boeing/Embraer tie-up, you are surprised that I am talking about partnerships on an airframer level?

Yes, Boeing Defence do partner up - but that'll only happen as a last resort.


If Boeing go into a joint venture with Embraer, what do you think they'll build and what part of the market do you think it'll cannibalise sales from?




Route66 wrote:
Have you heard of Embraer unhappiness about previous/current working relationships with Boeing? Any evidence at all?


Nope. But then significant relations between the two are only about 5 years old and are confined to either low TRL research or marketing fluff.

Hows DHC fairing?

Or what about this:
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2007-06-09- ... -Agreement

Or Long beach:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-b ... story.html



But its not just Boeing - its somewhat unfair of me to single them out. Any large multinational are as slippery, greasy and untrustworthy as ___k. Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer would all happily screw you over dishonestly if they thought there was a few quid in it for them. Trotting out the mantra of "maximising shareholder value", "its just business" or some similar crap to justify themselves.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Amiga500 wrote:



In that case, it would work out in Embraer's favor. It is supposedly cheaper to assemble planes in Brazil compared to the U.S., so Boeing will want to move more production to Brazil.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:44 pm

Source:https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-02-05/boeing-bullish-embraer-talks

Boeing Bullish on Embraer Talks

Excerpt:

While Boeing's presence at this year's Singapore show might seem a bit muted due to its lack of any airliners on display, interest in the company's pursuit of an ownership stake in Brazil's Embraer will no doubt present plenty of fodder for conversation in the exhibit halls.
Speaking at a pre-show roundtable discussion with journalists yesterday, Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice president of sales for Asia-Pacific and India Dinesh Keskar opened the discussion on an optimistic note, suggesting the prospect of a tie-up involving both the commercial and defense businesses remains a distinct possiblity, despite less-than-positive signals from the Brazilian government over ceding control of any of Embraer's military interests.
"The talks are ongoing, and it's a good strategic fit," said Keskar.
"We have worked with [Embraer] for a long time. It is not an offshoot of what happened with Airbus and Bombardier, like some people think."
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:48 pm

767333ER wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I still don’t get why they would want to do this if in their minds something about the size of the E195 E2 is highly substituable with a 737-7. :liar:


It´s not about the present.

It´s about the future ...

But in business it’s always about the future or at least it should be. Boeing didn’t complain hoping to get Delta’s business back, it was about future business that might get “stolen” from them.


When I say future I mean in prospecting new markets and developing new products, such as the 73X family replacement ...
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:26 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
767333ER wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

It´s not about the present.

It´s about the future ...

But in business it’s always about the future or at least it should be. Boeing didn’t complain hoping to get Delta’s business back, it was about future business that might get “stolen” from them.


When I say future I mean in prospecting new markets and developing new products, such as the 73X family replacement ...


Whatever new lean production Boeing is trying to institute, one better believe Embraer is going to want in on that know how too.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:42 am

william wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
767333ER wrote:
But in business it’s always about the future or at least it should be. Boeing didn’t complain hoping to get Delta’s business back, it was about future business that might get “stolen” from them.


When I say future I mean in prospecting new markets and developing new products, such as the 73X family replacement ...


Whatever new lean production Boeing is trying to institute, one better believe Embraer is going to want in on that know how too.


Due to the negotiations that are underway, Embraer is very likely already in on that ...
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:43 am

If this is to be confirmed, in my opinion this is the worst of the scenarios.
Goodbye commercial and executive aviation for Embraer ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Source (in portuguese only - Google Translate helps):
http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/530840 ... da-embraer origem=G1&utm_source=g1.globo.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=materia

Boeing proposes to have 90% of Embraer commercial aviation company

Excerpts:

"The Boeing project submitted to the government last week predicts that the US aviation giant would control 80% to 90% of a new company that would receive all of Embraer's commercial aviation area, both regional and executive jets, as reported yesterday the PRO Value, real-time information service.
The Brazilian manufacturer, therefore, would have under it only 10% to 20% of the capital of the new company and also the current defense area, which the Brazilian government insists not be sold."


"The remaining Embraer, however, will be a dehydrated company, far removed from what is the Brazilian manufacturer today."

"The Americans have made it clear to the government that it is imperative for them to have full control of the commercial aviation company that will be established, which is expected to report directly to Chicago, Boeing's headquarters. Only in this way, they believe, can they conduct business with the agility they deem necessary."
 
pugman211
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:07 am

I hope that is not the case because that sounds like Boeing will close the parts they don't control and what is to stop Boeing moving the fal/jobs to the U.S.?

Surely that is a very desperate move ?
 
Jomar777
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:37 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
If this is to be confirmed, in my opinion this is the worst of the scenarios.
Goodbye commercial and executive aviation for Embraer ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Source (in portuguese only - Google Translate helps):
http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/530840 ... da-embraer origem=G1&utm_source=g1.globo.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=materia

Boeing proposes to have 90% of Embraer commercial aviation company

Excerpts:

"The Boeing project submitted to the government last week predicts that the US aviation giant would control 80% to 90% of a new company that would receive all of Embraer's commercial aviation area, both regional and executive jets, as reported yesterday the PRO Value, real-time information service.
The Brazilian manufacturer, therefore, would have under it only 10% to 20% of the capital of the new company and also the current defense area, which the Brazilian government insists not be sold."


"The remaining Embraer, however, will be a dehydrated company, far removed from what is the Brazilian manufacturer today."

"The Americans have made it clear to the government that it is imperative for them to have full control of the commercial aviation company that will be established, which is expected to report directly to Chicago, Boeing's headquarters. Only in this way, they believe, can they conduct business with the agility they deem necessary."


I read the original article (in Portuguese) and I can see that it is more of an analysis of what Boeing may propose to the Brazilian Government. This will not be the final one unless if the present Government wants to commit a political suicide.
OK - the Defence area would be kept apart and the present deal with SAAB would be protected, but a significant chunk of revenue would go away to Boeing which will, in itself increase the demand from the remaining Embraer for a Budget injection (from the tax payer). This without the fact that safeguards would have to be put in place towards guaranteeing that we wold not have job losses should Boeing consider to close/transfer part or most of the production away from Brazil.

I believe that Brazil will refuse this offer. Embraer can survive on their own regardless of an increased challenge from Airbus/BBD. The most likely scenario after this, is the partnership on the commercial side but on a small percentage (similar to the 51% Airbus has on the C-Series Program).

Note that, if Boeing manages to absorb Embraer as proposed above, BBD will most certainly go too - to Airbus which will feel it needs to contra Boeing's strategy. This would be a lose-lose situation on the market due to the resultant polarization.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:50 am

Unless Embraer ( civilian arm) is loosing a packet ( don't believe it is) or somehow they are frightened out of their boots by Airbus' involvement with Bombardier ( no real reason to be) why would they part with 80-90% of this important industry?
I can see that Boeing might like to,but even then the 100-175 market is Small beer to a company like Boeing ( or Airbus) no?
Right now neither of them ( effectively) are in it anyway.
I feel a deal will be done as it makes sense all round but surely 51% would do.
 
LPSHobby
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:53 am

I am prayng for this to be cancelled, I love Embraer and would like to see, as a brazilian citizen and as an aviation enthusiast, to see Embraser as free company, not dominated by Boeing, to continue to manufacure their excellent airliners and bizz jets and in a future making bigger planes too.
And not as a brazilian citizen, but as an aviation enthusiast, I would like to see Bombardier too as a freee company, not in the control by Airbus
But business are bussiness... I know
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:17 am

Jomar777 wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
If this is to be confirmed, in my opinion this is the worst of the scenarios.
Goodbye commercial and executive aviation for Embraer ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Source (in portuguese only - Google Translate helps):
http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/530840 ... da-embraer origem=G1&utm_source=g1.globo.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=materia

Boeing proposes to have 90% of Embraer commercial aviation company

Excerpts:

"The Boeing project submitted to the government last week predicts that the US aviation giant would control 80% to 90% of a new company that would receive all of Embraer's commercial aviation area, both regional and executive jets, as reported yesterday the PRO Value, real-time information service.
The Brazilian manufacturer, therefore, would have under it only 10% to 20% of the capital of the new company and also the current defense area, which the Brazilian government insists not be sold."


"The remaining Embraer, however, will be a dehydrated company, far removed from what is the Brazilian manufacturer today."

"The Americans have made it clear to the government that it is imperative for them to have full control of the commercial aviation company that will be established, which is expected to report directly to Chicago, Boeing's headquarters. Only in this way, they believe, can they conduct business with the agility they deem necessary."


I read the original article (in Portuguese) and I can see that it is more of an analysis of what Boeing may propose to the Brazilian Government. This will not be the final one unless if the present Government wants to commit a political suicide.
OK - the Defence area would be kept apart and the present deal with SAAB would be protected, but a significant chunk of revenue would go away to Boeing which will, in itself increase the demand from the remaining Embraer for a Budget injection (from the tax payer). This without the fact that safeguards would have to be put in place towards guaranteeing that we wold not have job losses should Boeing consider to close/transfer part or most of the production away from Brazil.

I believe that Brazil will refuse this offer. Embraer can survive on their own regardless of an increased challenge from Airbus/BBD. The most likely scenario after this, is the partnership on the commercial side but on a small percentage (similar to the 51% Airbus has on the C-Series Program).

Note that, if Boeing manages to absorb Embraer as proposed above, BBD will most certainly go too - to Airbus which will feel it needs to contra Boeing's strategy. This would be a lose-lose situation on the market due to the resultant polarization.


Jomar777, if do you accompanied our policy closely knows that from this government we can expect everything, until the unexpected ...

Some thoughts that come to my mind:

1. The Valor Econômico Magazine has a bias on the left politics. The news is more to sensationalism waiting for the reaction of unions than in fact it can be;

2. If there is any real fund on that, The Embraer Defense will not survive only if it depends on the government side.
If the company had not made the contribution in 2015 on its own, most likely the KC-390 project would have been paralyzed and would only be resumed after the improvement in the public accounts.
Recalling further that the federal government takes royalties on all sales made within the area of ​​defense;

3. Speaking of public accounts, the government is thirsting for money to reduce the gap in its accounts.
The Minister of Economy, Mr. Henrique Meirelles, has already said in all words that he favors the sale of Embraer.
Even if the federal government has no shares in the company except for the golden shares, I believe Boeing will most likely pay the government some value in return for the deal.
It is also worth mentioning that Mr. Henrique Meirelles wants to close the year 2018 with the least debit possible in the government accounts so that he leaves "beautiful in the picture" and that it brings some merit to his probable candidacy for the elections for president of this year;

4. You say that the sale could represent a "suicide for this government". One more suicide then ... after what we saw in the two cases where the government (read the president in person) had to get rid of the accusations of the JBS scandal, this move is of minor importance.
In any case, we will no longer see the face of the current rulers.
So it matters little to them whether or not suicide will be.

Now I will tell you from my personal point of view:
- all we hope is a good business association and synergy for future projects and prospecting in new business.

Personally, the meaning of a Boeing airplane manufactured in Brazil is the same as a GM car manufactured in Brazil: none !!!
 
WIederling
Posts: 8357
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:59 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
If this is to be confirmed, in my opinion this is the worst of the scenarios.
Goodbye commercial and executive aviation for Embraer ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Source (in portuguese only - Google Translate helps):
http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/530840 ... da-embraer origem=G1&utm_source=g1.globo.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=materia

Boeing proposes to have 90% of Embraer commercial aviation company

Excerpts:

"The Boeing project submitted to the government last week predicts that the US aviation giant would control 80% to 90% of a new company that would receive all of Embraer's commercial aviation area, both regional and executive jets, as reported yesterday the PRO Value, real-time information service.
The Brazilian manufacturer, therefore, would have under it only 10% to 20% of the capital of the new company and also the current defense area, which the Brazilian government insists not be sold."


"The remaining Embraer, however, will be a dehydrated company, far removed from what is the Brazilian manufacturer today."

"The Americans have made it clear to the government that it is imperative for them to have full control of the commercial aviation company that will be established, which is expected to report directly to Chicago, Boeing's headquarters. Only in this way, they believe, can they conduct business with the agility they deem necessary."


I read the original article (in Portuguese) and I can see that it is more of an analysis of what Boeing may propose to the Brazilian Government. This will not be the final one unless if the present Government wants to commit a political suicide.
OK - the Defence area would be kept apart and the present deal with SAAB would be protected, but a significant chunk of revenue would go away to Boeing which will, in itself increase the demand from the remaining Embraer for a Budget injection (from the tax payer). This without the fact that safeguards would have to be put in place towards guaranteeing that we wold not have job losses should Boeing consider to close/transfer part or most of the production away from Brazil.

I believe that Brazil will refuse this offer. Embraer can survive on their own regardless of an increased challenge from Airbus/BBD. The most likely scenario after this, is the partnership on the commercial side but on a small percentage (similar to the 51% Airbus has on the C-Series Program).

Note that, if Boeing manages to absorb Embraer as proposed above, BBD will most certainly go too - to Airbus which will feel it needs to contra Boeing's strategy. This would be a lose-lose situation on the market due to the resultant polarization.


Jomar777, if do you accompanied our policy closely knows that from this government we can expect everything, until the unexpected ...

Some thoughts that come to my mind:

1. The Valor Econômico Magazine has a bias on the left politics. The news is more to sensationalism waiting for the reaction of unions than in fact it can be;

2. If there is any real fund on that, The Embraer Defense will not survive only if it depends on the government side.
If the company had not made the contribution in 2015 on its own, most likely the KC-390 project would have been paralyzed and would only be resumed after the improvement in the public accounts.
Recalling further that the federal government takes royalties on all sales made within the area of ​​defense;

3. Speaking of public accounts, the government is thirsting for money to reduce the gap in its accounts.
The Minister of Economy, Mr. Henrique Meirelles, has already said in all words that he favors the sale of Embraer.
Even if the federal government has no shares in the company except for the golden shares, I believe Boeing will most likely pay the government some value in return for the deal.
It is also worth mentioning that Mr. Henrique Meirelles wants to close the year 2018 with the least debit possible in the government accounts so that he leaves "beautiful in the picture" and that it brings some merit to his probable candidacy for the elections for president of this year;

4. You say that the sale could represent a "suicide for this government". One more suicide then ... after what we saw in the two cases where the government (read the president in person) had to get rid of the accusations of the JBS scandal, this move is of minor importance.
In any case, we will no longer see the face of the current rulers.
So it matters little to them whether or not suicide will be.

Now I will tell you from my personal point of view:
- all we hope is a good business association and synergy for future projects and prospecting in new business.

Personally, the meaning of a Boeing airplane manufactured in Brazil is the same as a GM car manufactured in Brazil: none !!!


Looks like the change in leadership already furthered US interests in Brazil?
https://theintercept.com/2016/04/22/to- ... ce-chiefs/
follow up to Russev Rousseff , Temer, this Mr. Cunha seems to be as corrupt and "I'll have my country sacked for a $ in my pocket" as they come.

So Boeing reaping some fruit here. To the detriment of Brazil ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

I read the original article (in Portuguese) and I can see that it is more of an analysis of what Boeing may propose to the Brazilian Government. This will not be the final one unless if the present Government wants to commit a political suicide.
OK - the Defence area would be kept apart and the present deal with SAAB would be protected, but a significant chunk of revenue would go away to Boeing which will, in itself increase the demand from the remaining Embraer for a Budget injection (from the tax payer). This without the fact that safeguards would have to be put in place towards guaranteeing that we wold not have job losses should Boeing consider to close/transfer part or most of the production away from Brazil.

I believe that Brazil will refuse this offer. Embraer can survive on their own regardless of an increased challenge from Airbus/BBD. The most likely scenario after this, is the partnership on the commercial side but on a small percentage (similar to the 51% Airbus has on the C-Series Program).

Note that, if Boeing manages to absorb Embraer as proposed above, BBD will most certainly go too - to Airbus which will feel it needs to contra Boeing's strategy. This would be a lose-lose situation on the market due to the resultant polarization.


Jomar777, if do you accompanied our policy closely knows that from this government we can expect everything, until the unexpected ...

Some thoughts that come to my mind:

1. The Valor Econômico Magazine has a bias on the left politics. The news is more to sensationalism waiting for the reaction of unions than in fact it can be;

2. If there is any real fund on that, The Embraer Defense will not survive only if it depends on the government side.
If the company had not made the contribution in 2015 on its own, most likely the KC-390 project would have been paralyzed and would only be resumed after the improvement in the public accounts.
Recalling further that the federal government takes royalties on all sales made within the area of ​​defense;

3. Speaking of public accounts, the government is thirsting for money to reduce the gap in its accounts.
The Minister of Economy, Mr. Henrique Meirelles, has already said in all words that he favors the sale of Embraer.
Even if the federal government has no shares in the company except for the golden shares, I believe Boeing will most likely pay the government some value in return for the deal.
It is also worth mentioning that Mr. Henrique Meirelles wants to close the year 2018 with the least debit possible in the government accounts so that he leaves "beautiful in the picture" and that it brings some merit to his probable candidacy for the elections for president of this year;

4. You say that the sale could represent a "suicide for this government". One more suicide then ... after what we saw in the two cases where the government (read the president in person) had to get rid of the accusations of the JBS scandal, this move is of minor importance.
In any case, we will no longer see the face of the current rulers.
So it matters little to them whether or not suicide will be.

Now I will tell you from my personal point of view:
- all we hope is a good business association and synergy for future projects and prospecting in new business.

Personally, the meaning of a Boeing airplane manufactured in Brazil is the same as a GM car manufactured in Brazil: none !!!


Looks like the change in leadership already furthered US interests in Brazil?
https://theintercept.com/2016/04/22/to- ... ce-chiefs/
follow up to Russev Rousseff , Temer, this Mr. Cunha seems to be as corrupt and "I'll have my country sacked for a $ in my pocket" as they come.

So Boeing reaping some fruit here. To the detriment of Brazil ?


This Mr. Cunha is in jail right now.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8357
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:49 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
This Mr. Cunha is in jail right now.


successor? up or down?
Murphy is an optimist
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2922
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:42 pm

"CFMI is a 50–50 joint-owned company of Safran Aircraft Engines (formerly known as SNECMA)" Wikipedia." This must be one of the most successful, no drama example of corporate joint ventures ever. The success is, as I see it, due to a well defined product line and we defined responsibilities, and 50/50 shared production.

Could it be a model for Boeing and Embraer? It would have a well defined product line, one essential to Embraer and one in which Boeing is lacking. Boeing needs to have some smaller jets, has no desire to hire US workers, and Emb needs a little money, and a big sponsor.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
"CFMI is a 50–50 joint-owned company of Safran Aircraft Engines (formerly known as SNECMA)" Wikipedia." This must be one of the most successful, no drama example of corporate joint ventures ever. The success is, as I see it, due to a well defined product line and we defined responsibilities, and 50/50 shared production.

Could it be a model for Boeing and Embraer? It would have a well defined product line, one essential to Embraer and one in which Boeing is lacking. Boeing needs to have some smaller jets, has no desire to hire US workers, and Emb needs a little money, and a big sponsor.



This could be the most perfect of the worlds ...
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:43 pm

parapente wrote:
Unless Embraer ( civilian arm) is loosing a packet ( don't believe it is) or somehow they are frightened out of their boots by Airbus' involvement with Bombardier ( no real reason to be) why would they part with 80-90% of this important industry?
I can see that Boeing might like to,but even then the 100-175 market is Small beer to a company like Boeing ( or Airbus) no?
Right now neither of them ( effectively) are in it anyway.
I feel a deal will be done as it makes sense all round but surely 51% would do.


Well logically you would if you figured 10-20% of the proposed market for this JV was worth more than 100% of what you can achieve on your own.

I suspect the JV is for whatever ends up falling below the NMA. 10-20% of whatever part of the 737/A320 market is at that time is worth many multiples of what EMB can realistically do by itself.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:56 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
If this is to be confirmed, in my opinion this is the worst of the scenarios.
Goodbye commercial and executive aviation for Embraer ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Source (in portuguese only - Google Translate helps):
http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/530840 ... da-embraer origem=G1&utm_source=g1.globo.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=materia

Boeing proposes to have 90% of Embraer commercial aviation company

Excerpts:

"The Boeing project submitted to the government last week predicts that the US aviation giant would control 80% to 90% of a new company that would receive all of Embraer's commercial aviation area, both regional and executive jets, as reported yesterday the PRO Value, real-time information service.
The Brazilian manufacturer, therefore, would have under it only 10% to 20% of the capital of the new company and also the current defense area, which the Brazilian government insists not be sold."


"The remaining Embraer, however, will be a dehydrated company, far removed from what is the Brazilian manufacturer today."

"The Americans have made it clear to the government that it is imperative for them to have full control of the commercial aviation company that will be established, which is expected to report directly to Chicago, Boeing's headquarters. Only in this way, they believe, can they conduct business with the agility they deem necessary."


I read the original article (in Portuguese) and I can see that it is more of an analysis of what Boeing may propose to the Brazilian Government. This will not be the final one unless if the present Government wants to commit a political suicide.
OK - the Defence area would be kept apart and the present deal with SAAB would be protected, but a significant chunk of revenue would go away to Boeing which will, in itself increase the demand from the remaining Embraer for a Budget injection (from the tax payer). This without the fact that safeguards would have to be put in place towards guaranteeing that we wold not have job losses should Boeing consider to close/transfer part or most of the production away from Brazil.

I believe that Brazil will refuse this offer. Embraer can survive on their own regardless of an increased challenge from Airbus/BBD. The most likely scenario after this, is the partnership on the commercial side but on a small percentage (similar to the 51% Airbus has on the C-Series Program).

Note that, if Boeing manages to absorb Embraer as proposed above, BBD will most certainly go too - to Airbus which will feel it needs to contra Boeing's strategy. This would be a lose-lose situation on the market due to the resultant polarization.


Jomar777, if do you accompanied our policy closely knows that from this government we can expect everything, until the unexpected ...

Some thoughts that come to my mind:

1. The Valor Econômico Magazine has a bias on the left politics. The news is more to sensationalism waiting for the reaction of unions than in fact it can be;

2. If there is any real fund on that, The Embraer Defense will not survive only if it depends on the government side.
If the company had not made the contribution in 2015 on its own, most likely the KC-390 project would have been paralyzed and would only be resumed after the improvement in the public accounts.
Recalling further that the federal government takes royalties on all sales made within the area of ​​defense;

3. Speaking of public accounts, the government is thirsting for money to reduce the gap in its accounts.
The Minister of Economy, Mr. Henrique Meirelles, has already said in all words that he favors the sale of Embraer.
Even if the federal government has no shares in the company except for the golden shares, I believe Boeing will most likely pay the government some value in return for the deal.
It is also worth mentioning that Mr. Henrique Meirelles wants to close the year 2018 with the least debit possible in the government accounts so that he leaves "beautiful in the picture" and that it brings some merit to his probable candidacy for the elections for president of this year;

4. You say that the sale could represent a "suicide for this government". One more suicide then ... after what we saw in the two cases where the government (read the president in person) had to get rid of the accusations of the JBS scandal, this move is of minor importance.
In any case, we will no longer see the face of the current rulers.
So it matters little to them whether or not suicide will be.

Now I will tell you from my personal point of view:
- all we hope is a good business association and synergy for future projects and prospecting in new business.

Personally, the meaning of a Boeing airplane manufactured in Brazil is the same as a GM car manufactured in Brazil: none !!!


I get all your very good points but the fact is that, differently from BBD and A, Boeing would be effectively, as you mention, buying EMB outright since a 90% ownership would go a long way in becoming 100% very quickly. For the Brazilian Government to sell a company that is doing well overall is basically unheard of. They would only top this up if they sell for example Petrobras.

OK, the Government needs cash but in exchange of basically writing off the whole aircraft business in Brazil? As you mention, the Defense sector may not survive if split form the commercial/executive division so will either be included on the deal, bought afterwards when it flounders or go bust altogether. This is not simply selling a stake control. This is effectively ending Brazilian presence outright.

Even the sale of TMA and the demise of Varig would not do such a damage because they left something behind.

You are absolutely right on the comparison with the merits of having GM cars produced in Brazil but do you remember this happening in large scale before? To a point of we writing ourselves off a whole manufacturing division? The only country that effectively came close to it is the UK and we pay the price even nowadays.

The JBS scandal is nothing near this.

But let's see. I still find it difficult for this to go ahead.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 am

Ah well,whatever the final %age and structure I think a deal will be done.One imagines that the might (which is very real) of Boeing will give them a far greater market presence.I feel sure they will set in stone that the manufacturing/assembly stays in Brazil (and why not).

For Boeing it covers off this 100-175 short/low med range sector.It does not conflict with the 737-7,8,9,10.(The 7 will be built for other military and business purposes anyway) and the rest are in a different market place.Looks like the 225-275 nma covers the gap above the 737 nicely too.So they end up with a well matched range of products right through to the 779 ( and possibly 10 VLA).
 
LPSHobby
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:54 am

if this 80/90% control of EMBRAER by Boeing becomes true it will be a very sad day for Brazil, in a country with milllions of wrong things something that is good will be gone, I am very sad with all this
 
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:41 am

Jomar777 wrote:

I get all your very good points but the fact is that, differently from BBD and A, Boeing would be effectively, as you mention, buying EMB outright since a 90% ownership would go a long way in becoming 100% very quickly.


Bombardier is well on their way to going out of business on their own. Bombardier has $8.8 billion USD in debt, and they will only receive 30% of the CSeries profit (which are already small/non-existant). That means it will take decades to pay off the debt (if at all), and it means that there is no money to develop any new aircraft.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:43 am

If I were on the Brazilian negotiation team, I would recommend a strategy that insured a future significant growth of the Brazilian aviation and manufacturing industry. More jobs and more exports.

Boeing could be allowed to take 100% control over Embraer, with certain safeguards in place (legal obligations, contract/agreement between the Boeing and the Brazilian government).

The terms could include:
- Requirements to satisfy national security, military aircraft production
- Continued production of the E-series in Brazil only (for a minimum number of years, and minimum number of employees in Brazil. Airbus promised something like that to the Canadian government.)
- etc.

The important term should be connected to the future. Remember that Boeing needs to replace the 737 sooner or later. For example, the parties could enter into an agreement that there will be a FAL for the 737 replacement in Brazil, and that at least 50% of all Boeing single aisle aircraft should be "Made in Brazil". That would be worth giving up control of Embraer for. Boeing would never do this for anything less than full control.

Alternatively, I can only see a joint venture for the E-series, much like ATR is a 50/50 joint venture between Leonardo and Airbus. This would be good for the E-series, but will give limited growth in Brazil. What happens when the E2 needs a replacement?

The key to any agreement is to get a significant part of the design and manufacturing of the 737 replacement to Brazil as part of the deal. That would boost Brazilian exports and create a huge number of jobs in the coming decades. Boeing would get highly qualified personnel, and getting that more cheaply than in the US. That's very good for its shareholders.
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:12 am

This isnt a nice outcome - Classic company buying out another with no thoughts about the employees, history and culture of the business they are buying out. Almost seems pointless for Boeing to even need to do this.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:29 am

Regarding the defense unit, Embraer may keep it:

The more sensitive defence unit of Embraer will keep its current shareholders' structure with the government holding a veto power over all decisions.


Ref https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... fence-wing

At the same time, Embraer has not yet reviewed Boeing's proposal:

Embraer has not yet received a proposal from Boeing for a possible combination of the manufacturers, Embraer Commercial Aviation President and CEO John Slattery said at the Singapore Airshow.

The two companies are still working on “identifying a structure that might work,“ Slattery said, declining to identify further details of such a structure.


Ref http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airsh ... ombination

Boeing adds that some key issues need to be overcome, and the price needs to be right:

“Our talks continue to advance in a productive manner but there are key issues that remain,” Phil Musser, Boeing’s senior vice president of communications, told Reuters.

“As noted on our earnings call this is a winning combination, but it is not a ‘must do’ for Boeing. The final terms -- and price -- need to provide the best value for our respective customers, investors and countries, to provide an optimal platform for success,” he said at the Singapore Airshow.


Ref https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN1FR0IB
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1705
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:38 am

reidar76 wrote:
If I were on the Brazilian negotiation team, I would recommend a strategy that insured a future significant growth of the Brazilian aviation and manufacturing industry.
Boeing could be allowed to take 100% control over Embraer, with certain safeguards in place ...

The terms could include:
- Requirements to satisfy national security, military aircraft production
- Continued production of the E-series in Brazil only (for a minimum number of years, and minimum number of employees in Brazil)....

The important term should be connected to the future. Remember that Boeing needs to replace the 737 sooner or later. For example, the parties could enter into an agreement that there will be a FAL for the 737 replacement in Brazil, and that at least 50% of all Boeing single aisle aircraft should be "Made in Brazil".

I have got to admire your "chutzpah".

But Boeing are not going to give up 50% of all single aisle aircraft production for anyone.
For chrissake, if Airbus themselves proposed a JV with Boeing, you could bet Boeing would make a case for 60% production at Seattle (vs 40% TLS). :lol:

But I suppose it doesn't hurt to dream. Good luck in screwing Boeing over. :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:08 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
If I were on the Brazilian negotiation team, I would recommend a strategy that insured a future significant growth of the Brazilian aviation and manufacturing industry.
Boeing could be allowed to take 100% control over Embraer, with certain safeguards in place ...

The terms could include:
- Requirements to satisfy national security, military aircraft production
- Continued production of the E-series in Brazil only (for a minimum number of years, and minimum number of employees in Brazil)....

The important term should be connected to the future. Remember that Boeing needs to replace the 737 sooner or later. For example, the parties could enter into an agreement that there will be a FAL for the 737 replacement in Brazil, and that at least 50% of all Boeing single aisle aircraft should be "Made in Brazil".

I have got to admire your "chutzpah".

But Boeing are not going to give up 50% of all single aisle aircraft production for anyone.
For chrissake, if Airbus themselves proposed a JV with Boeing, you could bet Boeing would make a case for 60% production at Seattle (vs 40% TLS). :lol:

But I suppose it doesn't hurt to dream. Good luck in screwing Boeing over. :D


I think you misunderstood me. Let me clarify. If Boeing took over full control (buy Embraer, the entire company), it should offer the Brazilian government something in order for them to allow that. That something should be promises of jobs in Brazil. They would be working for a Boeing subsidiary, so Boeing would not be giving away anything. The benefit for Boeing would be cheap and highly skilled personnel.
 
bob75013
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:00 am

Looks like Boeing is planning for a JV with Boeing owning 80-90% of the new company.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-c ... 46981.html
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:25 pm

Kinda old, dude.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:00 pm

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN1G51XJ


Boeing sees a “great strategic fit” in a possible acquisition of Brazilian plane maker Embraer but the deal is not essential, Boeing Chief Executive Officer Dennis Muilenburg said on Wednesday. “If we can get to a good deal and one that adds value for our customers and our companies, we will do it,” Muilenburg said at an investor conference in Miami organized by Citigroup Inc. “If we can’t get to the finish line, it doesn’t change our strategy. This is a great complement to our strategy but not a must do.”
 
User avatar
Bjm0517
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:41 am

Boeing to have a 51% stake in a venture currently being negotiated with Embraer for commercial aircrafts

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:41 pm

Boeing is to hold a 51% stake in Embraer, this conferming that they will work together. The government has agreed to let Boeing hold a 51% stake in Embraer. This will definitely help Boeing win over the smaller market of regional jets that they haven’t been able to touch.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKCN1G90P3
Last edited by SQ22 on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
speedbird52
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:42 pm

Why are acquisitions like this legal?
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:42 pm

[*]
speedbird52 wrote:
Why are acquisitions like this legal?


Why wouldn’t they?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8200
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in a venture currently being negotiated with Embraer for commercial aircrafts

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:47 pm

51% stake in a third company to be jointly owned. Not in embraer itself.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
speedbird52
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:48 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
[*]
speedbird52 wrote:
Why are acquisitions like this legal?


Why wouldn’t they?

The Airplane industry is already consolidated enough. Why is Boeing allowed to hold an even bigger stake in a duopoly?
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:01 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
[*]
speedbird52 wrote:
Why are acquisitions like this legal?


Why wouldn’t they?

The Airplane industry is already consolidated enough. Why is Boeing allowed to hold an even bigger stake in a duopoly?


It’s a global industry where China is gearing up and Russia is still lurking. Airbus just did a similar deal with Bombardier. Both Airbus and Boeing had holes in their strategies at the bottom of their narrowbody aircraft lines. Additionally with all the consolidation in the airlines, they are placing much bigger orders than ever which then feeds the commercial jet makers to get even bigger.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in a venture currently being negotiated with Embraer for commercial aircrafts

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:06 pm

Lauro Jardim is famous for its news (gossip) that is not confirmed ...
Saw smoke but do not know where the fire is !!!

Anyway, if there is any truth in this, 49% better than 10% previously proposed, as affirmed by also journalist of the newspaper "O Globo" Miriam Leitão.

Forgive me, but this kind of news is not for backstage.
Who knows the negotiations do not leak because they may face problems with the authorities that monitor the financial and stock market (speculation).


Moderation, we could continue here ??? There is a long topic already about this matter ... thank you ...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1381717&p=20192089&hilit=embraer#p20192089
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:33 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
[*]
speedbird52 wrote:
Why are acquisitions like this legal?

Why wouldn’t they?

The Airplane industry is already consolidated enough.

Says who? ...you?

Based on what? Why should anyone consider that an objective assessment?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26237
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:33 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
The Airplane industry is already consolidated enough. Why is Boeing allowed to hold an even bigger stake in a duopoly?


I am guessing for the same reason(s) Airbus was allowed to hold an even bigger stake in a duopoly by taking the CSeries over from Bombardier.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:00 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Why are acquisitions like this legal?


Any acquisition of Embraer and/or partnership between Boeing and Embraer, will require regulatory approval in several countries. In other words, these kind of acquisitions are only legal if they are approved, and an acquisition will only be approved if the overall competition in the market is not affected significantly a negative manner.

Approval of the Bombardier-Airbus joint venture on the C-series is still pending.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in Embraer

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:44 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
[*]
Why wouldn’t they?

The Airplane industry is already consolidated enough.

Says who? ...you?

Based on what? Why should anyone consider that an objective assessment?

Is two manufactures who often don't build competing products really a free market?
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in a venture currently being negotiated with Embraer for commercial aircrafts

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 pm

51% sounds more realistic than the 80-90% speculated previously.

Bjm0517 wrote:
Boeing is to hold a 51% stake in Embraer,


Not quite right. A new company for this joint venture will be created, and Boeing will hold 51% of it. By creating a new company, the military unit can be left out, for example.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing to have a 51% stake in a venture currently being negotiated with Embraer for commercial aircrafts

Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:02 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
51% sounds more realistic than the 80-90% speculated previously.

Bjm0517 wrote:
Boeing is to hold a 51% stake in Embraer,


Not quite right. A new company for this joint venture will be created, and Boeing will hold 51% of it. By creating a new company, the military unit can be left out, for example.


If one maintains what has been speculated until the present moment a new company for the commercial division and the executive would be constituted only, being also in that new company the Brazilian government would maintain a "Golden Share" to assure the interests of Embraer and the government.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:21 pm

I wonder what name they will come up with for this new joint venture? Hopefully something more creative than CSALP. :D
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:05 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Hopefully something more creative than CSALP. :D

I agree!

Because SCACS (Société en commandite Avions C Series) sounded way better :mrgreen:
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:23 am

So what does this fortell? Common cockpit from this point forward? What positive influence does this mean for upcoming Boeing and Embraer projects? New Embraer turboprop?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos