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JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:04 am

The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping. The deal that was voted upon was made in Jan 19, things started shifting for Boeing. At the same time Embraer's did not pick up many orders.

Boeing probably owes the $100M breakup fee, but it will be difficult to get more from Boeing. Covid very much is a force majour issue, this deal went from excellent to out of the question over the last 18 months. Boeing has to spend this 4B on more important things.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:32 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.


Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!

If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:51 am

I’m really glad that the JV isn’t happening :)
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WaywardMemphian
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:54 am

Boeing couldmgave had the C Series.for pocket change and knowing them would have still killed it off to protect the Max.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:11 am

Embraer should cooperate with Mitsubishi.

Not sure what this decision means for Boeing's commercial product development future? Embraer was supposed to provide cheaper engineering for what is to come after the MAX one day. Boeing needs some clear strategy now. Otherwise they risk their commercial airplanes business it seems. Hopefully not the same mistakes are happening again that put MDD out of this business like not investing enough in the future and product strategy.
In times of crisis market shares are redistributed.
 
astuteman
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:18 am

scbriml wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.


Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!

If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.


Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……

Rgds
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:27 am

astuteman wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.


Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!

If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.


Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……

Rgds


:)

I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:31 am

They can't afford the purchase price and the planes Embraer would have sold will be competing with pre-owned planes that are now cheaper to buy and cheaper to run.
 
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flee
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:00 pm

scbriml wrote:
astuteman wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!

If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.

Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……

Rgds

:)

I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.

Boeing has too much on its plate now and management talent may be spread out a bit too thinly!
 
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PW100
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:04 pm

scbriml wrote:
astuteman wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.


Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds

:)
I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.


As it is, it appears that it will cost Boeing $100M to save that $4Bn in cash . . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:29 pm

PW100 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds

:)
I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.


As it is, it appears that it will cost Boeing $100M to save that $4Bn in cash . . . .


I expect a major issue is that Boeing wanted to pay less than $4B and Embraer was unwilling to renegotiate the price!
 
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glideslope
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:34 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
I have to wonder whether the EMB move would be to give Boeing a competitive product, in order to support the tariffs. If they race to get the deal done before early January, we will know the answer.

Er, no.
Unless you want to consider a world where you can be prosecuted tomorrow, for a speed limit only brought in today, for a driving "offence" you committed last week.

Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law


I highly doubt given recent history there is much chance of Article 1 sections 9 & 10 being enforced in the US. SCOTUS would simply change the intension.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:48 pm

planecane wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Current economic conditions aside, strategically it is a myopic move. Boeing needs to break away from 737 shackles. E2 was their jail free card and as always they blew it.


The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.

The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.


It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.
All posts are just opinions.
 
sandyb123
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
We'll see what the lawyers say, but now is not the time to spend billions on a company worth a fraction of that. Boeing is very fortunate that coronavirus hit before the deal was completed. Airbus wasn't so fortunate with their CSeries anchor. Coronavirus will reward the manufacturer that can shrink the fastest. Boeing is in that position if the law is in their favor.

Hopefully Embraer survives on their own and can revisit this if the bridges aren't too badly burned. I don't have a high hopes though, not with the E2 being too large for U.S. scope clauses and too small for competitiveness in a mainline usage. I don't blame them for fighting tooth and nail to keep the deal. They may not live without it.


The BBD & Airbus deal is a winner for both parties. I’m not going to make this an A vs B rant but the A220 sells well and in fact the biggest customer (Air Baltic) has just sped up their deliveries to offload older more expensive 737s.

It’s also clean sheet and efficient aircraft so it has longevity in the market. The E2 was an upgrade of old tech, something Boeing now knows the pitfalls of.

Hopefully Embraer pulls through, I like riding the E190 family with 2+2 seating and windows that you don’t need to crane your neck to look out of!

Sandyb123
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Lewton
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:35 pm

txkf2010 wrote:
Maybe Lockheed will get back into the commercial arena!

This is not a serious possibility, but would be an awesome development.
From Hamburg with love.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
planecane wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Current economic conditions aside, strategically it is a myopic move. Boeing needs to break away from 737 shackles. E2 was their jail free card and as always they blew it.


The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.

The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.


It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.

I'm confused. Boeing has the NMA technology evolved off the 787. By this I mean:
Predictive maintenance
Folding wingtips
New avionics architecture
CFRP wings/wingbox
Electric subsystems

For the NSA, the volume will be so high everything will be custom.

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
planecane wrote:

The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.

The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.


It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.

I'm confused. Boeing has the NMA technology evolved off the 787. By this I mean:
Predictive maintenance
Folding wingtips
New avionics architecture
CFRP wings/wingbox
Electric subsystems

For the NSA, the volume will be so high everything will be custom.

Lightsaber


Both are still on paper. Boeing never seems to be interested in scaling up(to 777x) or scaling down(to NMA/NSA) 787 architecture.

MCAS raises doubts whether Boeing has experienced engineering staff to write specs, or mostly fresh grads leading large teams on innovation. Not unique to aviation, pre-COVID19, every Ross School of Business grad claims he/she got a 6-figure job to lead 200 member team.

With MAX fiasco, having different certification authority is not a bad thing, rather than counting on exclusive-FAA certificates.
All posts are just opinions.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:51 pm

I don't think Boeing had any choice about this. They don't have any money (mostly). On the other hand I was expecting the two to announce some sort of continuation of negotiations and some support from Boeing on ensuring the commercial line for Es could compete.
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planecane
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.

I'm confused. Boeing has the NMA technology evolved off the 787. By this I mean:
Predictive maintenance
Folding wingtips
New avionics architecture
CFRP wings/wingbox
Electric subsystems

For the NSA, the volume will be so high everything will be custom.

Lightsaber


Both are still on paper. Boeing never seems to be interested in scaling up(to 777x) or scaling down(to NMA/NSA) 787 architecture.

MCAS raises doubts whether Boeing has experienced engineering staff to write specs, or mostly fresh grads leading large teams on innovation. Not unique to aviation, pre-COVID19, every Ross School of Business grad claims he/she got a 6-figure job to lead 200 member team.

With MAX fiasco, having different certification authority is not a bad thing, rather than counting on exclusive-FAA certificates.


This doesn't make very much sense. They did use some 787 tech on the 777x. They were going to use it on the NMA and they will use it on whatever their next clean sheet is, no matter what it is. They weren't going to base the next clean sheet off of the E2. If they wanted to kill the max and launch the NSA tomorrow, it will be based off of the 787 architecture.

MCAS wasn't innovation. It was hacking a solution into an architecture that wasn't designed for that type of system.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:50 pm

An an aviation fan, ex member of the industry, fan of the 777, 747, 727, 767, 787: I urge Boeing to dissolve and remove the stained, tainted name of Boeing from the world. Boeing’s corporate entity disgusts me. The 737 “keep it flying anyway” affair was just one of several unforgivable crimes the company has committed. It is time to end this. Great news for Embraer.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:59 pm

kaneporta1 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
If the word from DL is to be believed, it is also dog when it comes to maintenance. I don't think they are celebrating in Toulouse; that is just fanboi fantasy talk.

What Boeing has done is piss off both its north and south American neighbors. It has pissed off everyone. This could also be yet another step on its slide into oblivion.


Considering that Delta's entire A220 fleet is currently flying, that is a pretty good indication of what the company thinks of this aircraft.

And honestly, Toulouse must be celebrating right now. Their primary A220 competitors are a company without a certified aircraft (Boeing) or a company whose viability will surely be questioned by potential future customers (Embraer). Actually Embraer is now where Bombardier was 3-4 years ago. Good products, but too risky for potential customers.

Because Delta bought the A220 does not make it a success. What Delta does ? Does not necessarily make it gospel for the other US Airlines. . It will give the Model SOME credibility however. How Much? it remains to be seen,
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:04 pm

I think Boeing might have looked at it and as they may have decided to do a relatively light 6W SA to replace the MAX - no need to invest in EMB to build a 5W C series competitor.

When NMA/NSA was more likely 7W they needed that light 5W option to compete at smaller capacities on shorter routes. One tube to cover everything.

That and they didn't have the money and with the radical downsizing they look like they are going to do - no bandwidth/manpower to look after the JV.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:10 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
An an aviation fan, ex member of the industry, fan of the 777, 747, 727, 767, 787: I urge Boeing to dissolve and remove the stained, tainted name of Boeing from the world. Boeing’s corporate entity disgusts me. The 737 “keep it flying anyway” affair was just one of several unforgivable crimes the company has committed. It is time to end this. Great news for Embraer.

Boeing is getting as good as they gave with the 737Max. They let Arrogance override their business sense, they also Half Ass engineered the 737 Max upgrade putting a stain on the proud legacy of the 737 model line Their saving grace? They can do better. Maybe? They need to go back and take another look at the DC-9 MD-80 series engineering with today's systems and materials in mind. There ARE engines available that make sense for today's market that would give Boeing a good basis for a new model and they wouldn't need Embraer at all. Unless?? They just Want to outsource their airplanes in the future.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:24 pm

planecane wrote:
This doesn't make very much sense. They did use some 787 tech on the 777x. They were going to use it on the NMA and they will use it on whatever their next clean sheet is, no matter what it is. They weren't going to base the next clean sheet off of the E2. If they wanted to kill the max and launch the NSA tomorrow, it will be based off of the 787 architecture.

MCAS wasn't innovation. It was hacking a solution into an architecture that wasn't designed for that type of system.


That is like saying every twin engine planes share common architecture of two engines and most of the aviation hardware/software is made by a handful of suppliers.

n $Billions later no one sure about 777X's future.
n $Billions later no one know what MAX brings to the table
No one knows how many $Billions in MAX settlements.
No one knows how many $Billions needed to mitigate COVID-19 risks

A management with a clear vision would have been in a better position, rather than justifying bad decisions after the fact on internet.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Bambel
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:52 pm

Given the numbers on one hand and Covid on the other, i think it makes sense to stop the merger. The way Boeing did so seems just representative of their way of doing business for many years now.

planecane wrote:
The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.


Imagine Boeing would have bought the C-series, tried really to sell it like Airbus does and based the 737 successor on the same general design and scale it where needed. Even if it would only be slightly better than the NEO, it would have been a nice family of families ;)

B.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:40 pm

F9Animal wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
The question is, would Embraer be interested in a partnership with COMAC? I'm sure China is salivating at the opportunity as they were with the CSeries (before it was ultimately sold to Airbus).


What about Airbus? I find it difficult to think this could mean the end of Embraer. They have a solid product, and I just can't see them just bowing out. Yep, times are tough, but Embraer stands a solid chance of surviving this storm IMO.

Now if things are grim at Embraer, Airbus could easily swoop in and own the Regional market perhaps? As for Boeing? I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. What they did to the C-Series was absolutely disgusting. Boy did that come back to bite them. Karma is a mofo!

I doubt the EU or the US would allow that. It'd give Airbus pretty much the whole regional market (A220 + whatever-new-name-they'd-give-to-the-E2) with no viable competition (I have very little faith in the SpaceJet)
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:51 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I never understood that JV proposal, except as a "me too" knee-jerk reaction after the Airbus/BBD deal.
It the Boeing/Embraer deal was so solid in the first place, it would have happened already or been extended; maybe another blessing in disguise for Boeing.


When the JV was announced in 2019, the advantages for Boeing were:

Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire.
Access to much lower cost base in Brazil.
KC-390 program.
Revenue from EMB Commercial services.
E2 program, though this is tangential.

The advantages for Embraer were:

Access to Boeing’s vast customer base, marketing power, balance sheet (again, pre-virus) and capital markets.
Access to work on new airplane programs: NMA (at the time), Future Small Airplanes (single aisle, either to compete with A220 or larger).
Work for its engineers.
A future beyond the struggling E2 and beyond the fanciful turboprop concept.
A future for Embraer Commercial Airplanes, which in LNA’s view was increasingly risky.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/25/analy ... t-venture/

Those are the "official" reasons. Reality is:
- Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire: there's plenty of very good engineers available in the US, as well as other places where Boeing is already present (like Canada or Europe);
- Access to much lower cost base in Brazil: it remains to be seen the cost base is much lower in Brazil. Recent studies in cost comparison I had to do for an aerospace OEM put Brazil very close to Europe and the US, but much more difficult to work with; negating the cost advantage;
- KC-390 program: meh, 2 firm orders (Brazil and Portugal) for a total of 33 frames (28 & 5 respectively). Not a huge success. Also note the historical proximity between the 2 countries, one has to wonder why those 2 but no other countries ordered it;
- Revenue from EMB Commercial services: that might be the only viable and worthy piece of the deal, how much would it really bring though?
- E2 program, though this is tangential: tangential at best.

So, again, I understand the synergies merging 2 companies making similar products; but the only thing similar between between those 2 were that they are in the similar industry.
Not sure it was worth $4B...
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2210
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I never understood that JV proposal, except as a "me too" knee-jerk reaction after the Airbus/BBD deal.
It the Boeing/Embraer deal was so solid in the first place, it would have happened already or been extended; maybe another blessing in disguise for Boeing.


When the JV was announced in 2019, the advantages for Boeing were:

Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire.
Access to much lower cost base in Brazil.
KC-390 program.
Revenue from EMB Commercial services.
E2 program, though this is tangential.

The advantages for Embraer were:

Access to Boeing’s vast customer base, marketing power, balance sheet (again, pre-virus) and capital markets.
Access to work on new airplane programs: NMA (at the time), Future Small Airplanes (single aisle, either to compete with A220 or larger).
Work for its engineers.
A future beyond the struggling E2 and beyond the fanciful turboprop concept.
A future for Embraer Commercial Airplanes, which in LNA’s view was increasingly risky.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/25/analy ... t-venture/

Those are the "official" reasons. Reality is:
- Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire: there's plenty of very good engineers available in the US, as well as other places where Boeing is already present (like Canada or Europe);
- Access to much lower cost base in Brazil: it remains to be seen the cost base is much lower in Brazil. Recent studies in cost comparison I had to do for an aerospace OEM put Brazil very close to Europe and the US, but much more difficult to work with; negating the cost advantage;
- KC-390 program: meh, 2 firm orders (Brazil and Portugal) for a total of 33 frames (28 & 5 respectively). Not a huge success. Also note the historical proximity between the 2 countries, one has to wonder why those 2 but no other countries ordered it;
- Revenue from EMB Commercial services: that might be the only viable and worthy piece of the deal, how much would it really bring though?
- E2 program, though this is tangential: tangential at best.

So, again, I understand the synergies merging 2 companies making similar products; but the only thing similar between between those 2 were that they are in the similar industry.
Not sure it was worth $4B...


Back 2 years ago, Boeing was awash in cash, doing stock buy backs to the tune of a Billion per quarter, EMB looked like a good investment. Boeing was a bit jealous at EMB's ability to get models thru certification with little hiccup and far less spent compared to Boeing. Boeing was gearing up to do the NMA / NSA, as well as finishing up the 779, doing the 778 as well. Defense was rolling along finally and Dennis wanted to build unto its fortress.

Boeing had looked several times at BBD and the C series, had for a period an ownership position in DHC, Boeing saw a sea of red ink, too much risk to take up, saw it as competition to the 737 with the CS300 just below the 738 and Airbus at or above the 738. So a higher percent of orders would have cannibalized their other offerings, compared to Airbus getting customers for the CS series they would not have gotten.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:17 pm

744SPX wrote:
Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.

Are they going to make turboprops now?
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:38 pm

I think that with all this the TP idea is dead.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:01 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
As far as I am concerned, the only good thing to come out of this is pretty much killing off any possibility of the KC-390 invading C-130J territory. Job security is king.


Which jobs ? Yours ?

He didn't need to even worry about that. the C-130 is a workhorse. A go anywhere, Do anything airplane. The KC-390?
Would have to "grow up" to become what the C130 is already .
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:15 pm

744SPX wrote:
Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.


According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.
 
kaneporta1
Posts: 737
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:22 am

Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:42 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Because Delta bought the A220 does not make it a success. What Delta does ? Does not necessarily make it gospel for the other US Airlines. . It will give the Model SOME credibility however. How Much? it remains to be seen,


Actually, Delta buying almost 100 of them does make it a success. But my comment had nothing to do with this. I was mentioning that the entire Delta A220 fleet is NOT currently grounded. And this says a lot about the economics of this aircraft and whether it's a "maintenance dog" as was claimed.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 551
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:43 am

strfyr51 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
An an aviation fan, ex member of the industry, fan of the 777, 747, 727, 767, 787: I urge Boeing to dissolve and remove the stained, tainted name of Boeing from the world. Boeing’s corporate entity disgusts me. The 737 “keep it flying anyway” affair was just one of several unforgivable crimes the company has committed. It is time to end this. Great news for Embraer.

Boeing is getting as good as they gave with the 737Max. They let Arrogance override their business sense, they also Half Ass engineered the 737 Max upgrade putting a stain on the proud legacy of the 737 model line Their saving grace? They can do better. Maybe? They need to go back and take another look at the DC-9 MD-80 series engineering with today's systems and materials in mind. There ARE engines available that make sense for today's market that would give Boeing a good basis for a new model and they wouldn't need Embraer at all. Unless?? They just Want to outsource their airplanes in the future.


You know what, that’s not even that crazy an idea! A NEO 5Y DC-9 style airplane would compete well. It could probably beat the 737-Max8. Plus it would scale smaller more successfully. It could not replace the Max9 or 10. Realistically, there is nothing left from heritage DC-9 tooling. Probably. But it’s just about as modern as 737, and is superior in some ways. Not all
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 551
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:46 am

bkmbr wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.


According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.


Wow. Stunning ideas here. Bombardier’s expertise is presumably part of Airbus now, preserving that duopoly. But Embraer is also an accepted airliner maker at Western standards. China can buy it without a doubt.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:32 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
Airlines with purchase intentions awaiting completion of the JV to obtain better purchase conditions ...


c'mon, even you don't believe that.......
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:33 am

LCDFlight wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.


According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.


Wow. Stunning ideas here. Bombardier’s expertise is presumably part of Airbus now, preserving that duopoly. But Embraer is also an accepted airliner maker at Western standards. China can buy it without a doubt.


Trump would block export licenses on any type of U.S. content: engines, avionics, just as he did for the C919.
 
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MrBren
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:49 am

With the 737 MAX disaster, 787 problems, 77X orders cancellation, all related Covid 19 consequences and now the end of the Embraer deal, will Boeing survive?
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:56 am

Yes they will.
But both big manufacturers will seriously restructure. I see final assembly lines cutting their rates or closing and maybe even entire programs getting terminated now unfortunately. But it will be the same for other industries. Look at car manufacturing. The worst will happen to the suppliers that were set for growth and now have the investment but not the income.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:06 am

MrBren wrote:
With the 737 MAX disaster, 787 problems, 77X orders cancellation, all related Covid 19 consequences and now the end of the Embraer deal, will Boeing survive?

Yes Of course, Boeing can survive.
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strfyr51
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:16 am

bkmbr wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.


According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.

Now that really says a LOT! Comac couldn't Buy Sell or Steal the needed technology to get their indigenous airplanes off the ground just as they use copies of Russian fighters and ships for their military. So? they'd sure as hell want Embraer to come along side them to even Certify an airplane for western markets. Especially since they can't do it themselves. The good thing? They have plenty of disposable cash to put on the project though I doubt they could manage the after Sale work and continuing support needed to even make a product viable for the US market. , Or many Western markets for that matter.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:33 am

Not so sure how much money China still has available to spend elsewhere?
Would they want to buy it? Sure. Can they afford it now? Not sure.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:53 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Trump would block export licenses on any type of U.S. content: engines, avionics, just as he did for the C919.


Trump threatened to block US exports for the C919, but didn't.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1441205
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jfk777
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:28 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Embraer would be better off making a deal to let Boeing market their planes than battle them and sue them. Embraer can't be blind the facts of Boeing's problems, even with they can taste the $ 4 billion dollars not coming anymore. A deal of short of merging would be in everyone's interest.


Boeing terminated the deal.
Not Embraer !!!


So Boeing terminated the deal, with their $$$ tided up in hundreds of undelivered MAX jets parked all over the American West where are they going to get Embraer's money. The Brazilian side was never going to terminate this deal, what did they have to lose ? Embraer can't be blind to the economic situation in the world.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:39 pm

astuteman wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.


Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!

If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.


Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……

Rgds

...or preserved the status quo of only Airbus covering the entire commercial sector from wide body to RJ, Boeing now has nothing to offer below the 737-MAX7 while the new darling the A220 goes unchallenged. Now is keeping Boeing on this track worth saving them 4 billion today versus market share and more billions into the future.......
Hopefully someone at Boeing drinks coffee and the smell is strong. The small jet market is up for a major restructure and Boeing and Embraer just went multiple steps backward.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Trump would block export licenses on any type of U.S. content: engines, avionics, just as he did for the C919.


Trump threatened to block US exports for the C919, but didn't.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1441205


If Trump did that I'm sure that Boeing, GE and many other companies could kiss goodbye the entire Chinese market for good, not a good prospect at this point in time.
I don't believe that Trump would be this destructive with his own industries. Boeing's fate as a civil aircraft manufacturer is directly linked with China and Boeing and the American government knows that really well.
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 106
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Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:09 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
If the word from DL is to be believed, it is also dog when it comes to maintenance.


Can you elaborate?
 
SA280
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:37 pm

People are already trying to sell Embraer again. Now to the Chinese... It's not the correct time to sell those assets. And even though the COVID crisis, liquidity is not the problem within the next two years, already considering adjusted delivery schedules and without any announcement of additional long term loan by the Brazilian government.

I do believe that they not necessarily will turn into the next Bombardier or Fokker and certainly can survive on its own and wait for the correct timing for an eventual opportunistic deal in the future.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm

SA280 wrote:
People are already trying to sell Embraer again. Now to the Chinese... It's not the correct time to sell those assets. And even though the COVID crisis, liquidity is not the problem within the next two years, already considering adjusted delivery schedules and without any announcement of additional long term loan by the Brazilian government.

I do believe that they not necessarily will turn into the next Bombardier or Fokker and certainly can survive on its own and wait for the correct timing for an eventual opportunistic deal in the future.


I don't know if Embraer can survive for 2 years with the E2 line failing that hard against the Airbus A220. They may not have enough time to wait for a better opportunity if a buyer shows up. Embraer has been accumulating repeated losses for some time (as it happened most recently in 3Q19) and spent a lot on this frustrated merger with Boeing, mostly separating the sectors that previously operated together and are now separated (which increases the company's operating cost for the sake of duplicity). Embraer has no government to support it in this situation like Airbus, Boeing or COMAC have, and like it or not, the "product" is already set, the whole separation project has already been done in these two years, they will just need change the name in the purchase agreement from Boeing to COMAC.
 
SA280
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing Terminates Agreement to Establish Joint Ventures with Embraer

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:18 pm

bkmbr wrote:
SA280 wrote:
People are already trying to sell Embraer again. Now to the Chinese... It's not the correct time to sell those assets. And even though the COVID crisis, liquidity is not the problem within the next two years, already considering adjusted delivery schedules and without any announcement of additional long term loan by the Brazilian government.

I do believe that they not necessarily will turn into the next Bombardier or Fokker and certainly can survive on its own and wait for the correct timing for an eventual opportunistic deal in the future.


I don't know if Embraer can survive for 2 years with the E2 line failing that hard against the Airbus A220. They may not have enough time to wait for a better opportunity if a buyer shows up. Embraer has been accumulating repeated losses for some time (as it happened most recently in 3Q19) and spent a lot on this frustrated merger with Boeing, mostly separating the sectors that previously operated together and are now separated (which increases the company's operating cost for the sake of duplicity). Embraer has no government to support it in this situation like Airbus, Boeing or COMAC have, and like it or not, the "product" is already set, the whole separation project has already been done in these two years, they will just need change the name in the purchase agreement from Boeing to COMAC.

Embraer is not just the Commercial Aviation business unit, nor this BU relies on the E2. For sure they would like to have better order book at the moment for that new family, but differently from BBD, which totally abandoned regional aviation with the C-Series, the E175-E1, the bacon and butter for the company, is still and will continue to be a very competitive aircraft for the American Market, sharing the line with the E2s.

And regarding Embraer's financial position, even though not delivering the best return to shareholders throughout outstanding net profits, due to last development cycles (E2, KC-390, Praetor), the company has been having strong EBITDA, which is what matters when it comes to surviving. And after COVID, this tends to enhance, as past development cost will no longer drag too much cash. And if short term liquidity ever becomes an issue, there's always the Brazilian government to support such an strategic industry with necessary long term loan (of course not as much as EU or US, but still enough).
Last edited by SA280 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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